Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol

Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee

23/09/2019

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Carwyn Jones
Dai Lloyd
Suzy Davies

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

P Gareth Williams Clerc
Clerk
Rachael Davies Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Rhiannon Lewis Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Sarah Sargent Ail Glerc
Second Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 14:45.

The meeting began at 14:45.

1. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.22 i ethol Cadeirydd dros dro
1. Motion under Standing Order 17.22 to elect a temporary Chair

Good afternoon and welcome to this meeting of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. The committee Chair, Mick Antoniw AM, has submitted his apologies for today's meeting and the first item of business is the election of a temporary Chair. Therefore, I invite nominations from committee members for a temporary Chair to be elected under Standing Order 17.22.

I declare Dai Lloyd elected and invite him to take the Chair. 

Penodwyd Dai Lloyd yn Gadeirydd dros dro.

Dai Lloyd was appointed temporary Chair.

2. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
2. Introduction, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Gaf i ddiolch yn fawr iawn am hyder fy nghyd-Aelodau yn fy ngallu i i gadeirio'r cyfarfod yma y prynhawn yma? Croeso i chi i gyd i'r cyfarfod diweddaraf o'r Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol yma yn y Senedd. Rydym ni wedi symud ymlaen, felly, i eitem 2 a'r cyflwyniadau arferol. Os bydd y larwm tân yn canu, dylem ni adael yr ystafell yn dawel ac yn ddiffwdan gan ddilyn cyfarwyddiadau'r tywyswyr. Mae'r cyfarfod yma'n naturiol ddwyieithog. Mae clustffonau ar gael i dderbyn y gwasanaeth cyfieithu ar y pryd. Gellir hefyd eu defnyddio i addasu’r sain i’r rhai sy’n drwm eu clyw. Mae cyfieithu ar y pryd ar gael ar sianel 1 ac mae'r iaith sy'n cael ei siarad ar sianel 2. Fel rydych chi wedi clywed eisoes gan y clerc, rydym wedi cael ymddiheuriadau gan Mick Antoniw. Unrhyw ddatgan buddiant gan fy nghyd-Aelodau? Nac oes. 

May I thank my fellow Members for their confidence in my ability to chair this meeting this afternoon? Welcome to you all to this latest meeting of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee here in the Senedd. We've moved on, therefore, to item 2 and the introduction, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. In the event of a fire alarm, Members should leave the room quietly, following the instructions from the ushers. Naturally, this meeting is bilingual. Headphones are available to hear the simultaneous translation and they can also be used to amplify sound for those who are hard of hearing. Interpretation is available on channel 1 and verbatim is on channel 2. As you've heard, we've received apologies from Mick Antoniw. Are there any declarations of interest from fellow Members? No.

3. Offerynnau nad ydynt yn codi materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3
3. Instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen, felly, i eitem 3, offerynnau nad ydynt yn cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3. O'ch blaenau chi, wrth gwrs, mae papur 1, offerynnau statudol sydd ag adroddiadau clir, offerynnau’r weithdrefn penderfyniad negyddol, SL(5)441, cod ymarfer ar gyfer lles ieir dodwy a chywennod. Mi fyddwch wedi'u darllen yn drylwyr. Cyhoeddir y cod ymarfer hwn o dan adran 14 o Ddeddf Lles Anifeiliaid 2006. Cynhaliodd Llywodraeth Cymru adolygiad o’r cod presennol, a gyhoeddwyd yn 2002, ac ymgynghorwyd arno rhwng mis Tachwedd 2017 a mis Chwefror 2018. Pwrpas y cod yw sicrhau bod y rhai sy’n gyfrifol am anifail yn ymwybodol bod dyletswydd gyfreithiol arnynt i gymryd camau rhesymol i sicrhau bod ei anghenion lles yn cael eu diwallu, ac mae’n egluro’r hyn y mae’n rhaid i’r unigolion hynny ei wneud er mwyn bodloni’r safon o ofal sy’n ofynnol o dan y gyfraith. Unrhyw sylw gan unrhyw un? Pawb yn hapus, felly. Cyfreithwyr yn hapus? Pawb yn hapus, felly.

We'll move on, therefore, to item 3, instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. Before you, of course, you have paper 1, statutory instruments with clear reports, negative resolution instruments, SL(5)441, code of practice for the welfare of laying hens and pullets. You will have read it thoroughly. This code of practice is issued under section 14 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006. The Welsh Government undertook a review of the existing code, which was issued in 2002, and consulted upon it between November 2017 and February 2018. The purpose of the code is to ensure that those who are responsible for an animal are aware they have a legal duty to take reasonable steps to ensure its welfare needs are met, and it explains what those persons must do in order to meet the standard of care that the law requires. Any comments from anyone? All content, therefore. Lawyers happy? Everybody's happy.

4. Offerynnau sy'n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i’r Cynulliad o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3
4. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Assembly under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

Symudwn ymlaen i eitem 4, offerynnau sy'n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i’r Cynulliad o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3—offerynnau cyfansawdd y weithdrefn penderfyniad negyddol. O dan 4.1 mae SL(5)440, Gorchymyn Rhywogaethau Goresgynnol Estron (Gorfodi a Thrwyddedu) (Diwygio) 2019. Mae papurau 2, 3 a 4 o'ch blaenau chi. Mae’r Gorchymyn hwn yn diwygio Gorchymyn Rhywogaethau Goresgynnol Estron (Gorfodi a Thrwyddedu) 2019 er mwyn newid y dyddiad y daw Gorchymyn 2019 i rym, o 1 Hydref 2019 i 1 Rhagfyr 2019. Gwnaed y Gorchymyn hwn fel offeryn cyfansawdd, sy'n golygu bod y Gorchymyn wedi yn y lle cyntaf ei wneud gan Weinidogion Cymru a'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, a'i fod wedi'i osod gerbron Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a Senedd y DU. O ganlyniad, mae’r Gorchymyn wedi’i wneud yn Saesneg yn unig. Unrhyw sylw gan y cyfreithwyr yn y lle cyntaf?

We'll move on to item 4, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Assembly under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—composite negative resolution instruments. Under 4.1 we have SL(5)440, the Invasive Alien Species (Enforcement and Permitting) (Amendment) Order 2019. You have papers 2, 3 and 4 before you. This Order amends the Invasive Alien Species (Enforcement and Permitting) Order 2019 to change the date on which the 2019 Order comes into force, from 1 October 2019 to 1 December 2019. This Order has been made as a composite instrument, meaning the Order has been, in the first place, made by both the Welsh Ministers and the Secretary of State, and laid before both the National Assembly for Wales and the UK Parliament. As a result, the Order has been made in English only. Any comment from the lawyers in the first place?

Yes. There's one technical reporting point and one merits reporting point, starting on pack page 3. As the Chair has just said, the technical point notes that this Order is made by both Welsh Ministers and UK Ministers and is therefore laid before both the Assembly and the UK Parliament, and as a result the Order is in English only. The merits point notes that this Order is made under section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972. This gives Welsh Ministers a discretion whether to use the negative or the affirmative procedure. The negative procedure was chosen, because the required provisions in the Order give effect to the provisions of an EU regulation, and the enabling power under section 22(5) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, which has also been used to make this Order, requires the instrument to follow the negative procedure. So, legal advisers accept that the choice of negative procedure is appropriate in light of these reasons. 

14:50

Diolch yn fawr. Hapus i nodi neu unrhyw sylw? Hapus i nodi. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Thank you very much. Content to note or are there any comments? We're content to note that. Thank you very much. 

5. Offerynnau sy'n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i’r Cynulliad o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3—trafodwyd yn flaenorol
5. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Assembly under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—previously considered

Symudwn ymlaen, felly, o dan eitem 5 nawr, i offerynnau sy'n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i'r Cynulliad o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3 a drafodwyd yn flaenorol. Eitem 5.1: SL(5)435, Gorchymyn Iechyd Planhigion (Coedwigaeth) (Diwygio Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2019. Mae papur 5 o'ch blaenau chi, sef adroddiad diwygiedig gan gynnwys ymateb y Llywodraeth y tro hwn. Cafodd y rheoliadau, fel rydych chi'n cofio—y rheoliadau yma—eu trafod gan y pwyllgor yma yr wythnos diwethaf. Mae ymateb gan y Llywodraeth bellach wedi dod i law, ac mae'r adroddiad drafft, a drafodwyd yn y cyfarfod yr wythnos diwethaf, bellach wedi ei ddiweddaru i'r perwyl yna. Unrhyw sylw gan ein cyfreithiwr?  

We'll move on now to item 5, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Assembly under Standing Order 21.1 or 21.3 that have been previously considered. Item 5.1: we have SL(5)435, the Plant Health (Forestry) (Amendment No. 2) (Wales) Order 2019. We have paper 5 in front of us, which is a revised report, including the Government response in this instance. These regulations, as you'll remember, were considered by the committee on 16 September last week. A Government response has now been received, and the draft report, which was considered at last week’s meeting, has now been updated in that regard. Any comments from our lawyer?

Yes. The merits point last week noted an inconsistency between the explanatory memorandum and the letter to the Llywydd, which noted a breach of the 21-day rule as the reason a risk assessment was not undertaken. There was inconsistency between those two. The Welsh Government acknowledged the different reasons and confirmed that the primary reason no risk impact assessment was carried out was due to the emergency nature of the Order. The Order does become otiose on exit day. So, the Welsh Government propose to amend the explanatory note by way of a correction slip, if it is still relevant after 31 October 2019. 

Diolch yn fawr. Hapus i nodi neu unrhyw sylw pellach? Suzy. 

Thank you very much. Content to note that or any further comment? Suzy. 

Just the one thing, which is that both Scotland and England were able to lay their statutory instrument in time. So, I'm just curious as to why it couldn't happen here. 

Oes gyda ni ymateb i hynny?

Do we have a response to that?

I didn't see it in their answer. It's just an observation.  

Dyna ni. Mi wnawn ni ychwanegu hwnna at ein sylwadau ni. Diolch yn fawr, Suzy. 

There we are. We'll add that to our comments. Thank you very much, Suzy. 

6. Datganiadau ysgrifenedig o dan Reol Sefydlog 30C
6. Written statements under Standing Order 30C

Symud ymlaen i eitem 6, datganiadau ysgrifenedig o dan Reol Sefydlog 30C. Eitem 6.1: WS-30C(5)151, Rheoliadau Hylendid Bwyd Penodol (Rheoliad (CE) Rhif 853/2004) (Diwygio) (Ymadael â'r UE) 2019. Mi fyddwch chi wedi gweld papur 6 a phapur 7 o'ch blaenau chi. Nawr, mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn egluro diwygiad i gyfraith yr UE a ddargedwir a wnaed gan Reoliadau Hylendid Bwyd Penodol (Diwygio etc.) (Ymadael â’r UE) 2019. Mae'r diwygiadau a wneir gan y rheoliadau hyn yn darparu mai Gweinidogion, ac felly Gweinidogion Cymru mewn perthynas â Chymru, yn hytrach na’r Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd, fydd yn gyfrifol am awdurdodi defnyddio unrhyw sylweddau ychwanegol i gael gwared ar halogiad arwyneb o gynhyrchion sy’n dod o anifeiliaid ar ôl i'r Deyrnas Unedig adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Oes sylw cyfreithiol gyda ni?

We'll move on to item 6, written statements under Standing Order 30C. Item 6.1: WS-30C(5)151, Specific Food Hygiene (Regulation (EC) No. 853/2004) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. You'll have seen paper 6 and paper 7 before you. Now, these regulations clarify an amendment to retained EU law made by the Specific Food Hygiene (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. The amendments made by these regulations provide that ministers, and therefore the Welsh Ministers in relation to Wales, as opposed to the Food Standards Agency, will be responsible for authorising the use of any additional substances to remove surface contamination from products of animal origin following EU exit. Any comments from the lawyers?

Na, dim sylwadau. 

No, no comments. 

Hapus? Hapus i nodi? Diolch yn fawr. Symudwn ymlaen i eitem 6.2, WS-30C(5)152, Rheoliadau Iechyd Anifeiliaid ac Organeddau a Addaswyd yn Enetig (Diwygio) (Ymadael â'r UE) 2019. Mae papur 8 a phapur 9 o'ch blaenau chi. Mae'r diwygiadau a wneir gan yr offeryn hwn yn sicrhau bod y gyfraith ar enseffalopathïau sbyngffurf trosglwyddadwy a sgil-gynhyrchion anifeiliaid yn gweithredu'n gywir ar ôl i'r Deyrnas Unedig adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd trwy gynnwys y diwygiadau diweddar i gyfraith yr Undeb Ewropeaidd a setlwyd yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd ond a oedd yn rhy hwyr i gael eu cynnwys mewn deddfwriaeth ymadael â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd gynharach. Mae hwnna i gyd yn swnio ychydig bach yn gymhleth ond dwi'n siwr bod yna esboniad clir. Oes yna unrhyw sylw cyfreithiol i'w wneud? 

Content? Happy to note? Thank you very much. We'll move on to item 6.2, WS-30C(5)152, the Animal Health and Genetically Modified Organisms (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. We  have paper 8 and paper 9 in front of us. Now, the amendments made by this instrument ensure that the law on transmissible spongiform encephalopathies and animal by-products functions correctly after the UK has left the EU by including recent amendments to EU law that were settled in the EU too late to be included in earlier EU exit legislation. That all sounds rather complex, but I'm sure there will be a clear explanation. Any comments from the lawyer? 
 

Dim sylwadau, na. 

No comments, no. 

7. Papurau i'w nodi
7. Papers to note

Rydym ni wedi cyrraedd eitem 7 ar yr agenda rŵan, a phapurau i'w nodi. Mae yna restr ohonyn nhw. Eitem 7.1: llythyr gan y Dirprwy Weinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar y Bil Plant (Diddymu Amddiffyniad Cosb Resymol) (Cymru). Mae yna bapur 10 o'ch blaenau chi, llythyr gan y Dirprwy Weinidog, 13 Medi 2019. Fe’ch gwahoddir i nodi’r llythyr gan y Dirprwy Weinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol sy’n ymateb i adroddiad Cyfnod 1 y pwyllgor ar y Bil Plant (Diddymu Amddiffyniad Cosb Resymol) (Cymru). Rhoddwyd copi caled o’r llythyr i’r Aelodau yn y cyfarfod yr wythnos diwethaf, fel rydych chi’n cofio. Hapus i nodi?

Symud ymlaen felly i eitem 7.2, llythyr gan y Dirprwy Weinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol at Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg ynglŷn â’r un un Bil, y Bil Plant (Diddymu Amddiffyniad Cosb Resymol) (Cymru), dyddiedig eto 13 Medi 2019. Hapus i nodi hwn hefyd? Da iawn.

Symud ymlaen i’r eitem nesaf, 7.3, llythyr gan y Dirprwy Weinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol at Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid ar hyd yr un un llinellau ac ar yr un un Bil: y Bil Plant (Diddymu Amddiffyniad Cosb Resymol) (Cymru). Hapus i nodi? Pawb yn hapus i nodi.

Eitem 7.4, llythyr gan y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ar gytundeb cysylltiadau rhyng-sefydliadol. Fe fyddwch chi wedi darllen papur 13, y llythyr gan y Cwnsler Cyffredinol, dyddiedig 13 Medi 2019. Hapus i nodi? Cawn ni unrhyw drafodaeth yn ystod y sesiwn breifat os bydd angen. Cytuno? Dyna ni. Diolch yn fawr.

Symud ymlaen i eitem 7.5, llythyr gan y Gweinidog Tai a Llywodraeth Leol at Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau ar hawliau pleidleisio i garcharorion. Papur 14 ydy’r llythyr penodol. Ydych chi’n hapus i nodi hwnna? Iawn.

Symud ymlaen i eitem 7.6, llythyr gan y Llywydd at Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, eto ynglŷn â hawliau pleidleisio i garcharorion. Papur 15 ydy’r llythyr, dyddiedig 18 Medi 2019. Hapus i nodi? Diolch yn fawr.

So, we've now reached item 7 on the agenda, and papers to note. There is a list of letters. Item 7.1: a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. Paper 10 is before you, a letter from the Deputy Minister, 13 September 2019. You're invited to note the letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, which responds to the committee's Stage 1 report on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. Members were provided with a letter in hard copy at last week's meeting, as you remember. Happy to note?

Moving on therefore to item 7.2, a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee on the same bill, the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, again dated 13 September 2019. Happy to note this as well? Very good.

Moving on to item 7.3, a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to the Chair of the Finance Committee along the same lines and on the same Bill, the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. Happy to note? All content.

Item 7.4, a letter from the Counsel General on the inter-institutional relations agreement. You will have read paper 13, a letter from the Counsel General, dated 13 September 2019. Happy to note? We'll have any discussion during the private session if required. Agree? Yes. Thank you very much.

Moving on to item 7.5, a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government to the Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee on voting rights for prisoners. Paper 14 is the specific letter in question. Happy to note that? Yes.

Moving on to item 7.6, a letter from the Llywydd to the Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, again on voting rights for prisoners. Paper 15 is the letter from the Llywydd, dated 18 September 2019. Happy to note? Thank you.

14:55
8. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod
8. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Sy'n symud ni ymlaen at eitem 8, cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod ar gyfer y busnes canlynol. Felly, yn unol â'r Rheol Sefydlog yna—17.42(vi)—dwi'n gwahodd y pwyllgor i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. Ydy'r Aelodau'n cytuno? 

Which moves us on to item 8, a motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the following business. And therefore, in accordance with that Standing Order—17.42(vi)—I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. All agreed?

Diolch yn fawr. Awn ni i mewn, felly, i sesiwn breifat.

We'll now move into private session.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 14.57.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 14.57.