Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu - Y Bumed Senedd

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee - Fifth Senedd

18/07/2019

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Delyth Jewell
John Griffiths
Rhianon Passmore Yn dirprwyo
Substitute

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Abu-Bakr Madden Al-Shabazz Hanesydd Arbenigol Pobl Dduon Cymru, Cyngor Hil Cymru
Black History Wales Specialist Historian, Race Council Cymru
Carl Connikie Hyfforddwr Arweiniol, Rhaglen Cyflwyno Ysgolion Windrush, Cyngor Hil Cymru
Lead Trainer, Windrush Schools Presentation Programme, Race Council Cymru
Professor Uzo Iwobi Cydgysylltydd Hanes Pobl Dduon Cymru, Cyngor Hil Cymru
Black History Wales Co-ordinator, Race Council Cymru
Vernesta Cyril OBE Un o Hynafwyr Windrush, Cyngor Hil Cymru
Windrush Elder, Race Council Cymru

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Lowri Jones Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Robert Donovan Clerc
Clerk
Siân Hughes Ymchwilydd
Researcher

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 10:03.

The meeting began at 10:03.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Helo, a chroeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu ar ein diwrnod olaf yn y Senedd cyn toriad yr haf, felly hoffwn i ddiolch i bawb sydd ar y pwyllgor am eu gwaith caled dros y tymor yma, a hefyd i'r tîm clerciaid a'r ymchwilwyr am eu gwaith caled hefyd gyda ni. A gobeithio y bydd pawb yn cael amser i gael seibiant dros yr haf. Eitem 1 ar yr agenda yw cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. Gwnaethon ni gael ymddiheuriadau gan David Melding, Mick Antoniw a Carwyn Jones, a bydd Rhianon Passmore yn mynychu fel dirprwy. Diolch yn fawr iawn i Rhianon. Oes gan unrhyw un unrhyw beth i'w ddatgan yma heddiw? Na.

Hello, and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee on our last day in the Senedd before the summer recess, so I'd like to thank everybody who's on the committee for their hard work during this term, and also to the clerking team and the researchers for their hard work also with us. And I hope everybody will have an opportunity to have a rest over the summer. The first item on the agenda is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We have received apologies from David Melding, Mick Antoniw and Carwyn Jones, and Rhianon Passmore is substituting. Thank you very much to Rhianon. Does anybody have any declarations of interest? No.

2. Addysgu hanes, diwylliant a threftadaeth Cymru: sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr o Race Council Cymru
2. Teaching of Welsh history, culture and heritage: evidence session with representatives of Race Council Cymru

Felly, dŷn ni'n symud ymlaen at eitem 2, addysgu hanes, diwylliant a threftadaeth Cymru, a sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr o Race Council Cymru. Ar gyfer y record, a fyddai'n iawn i chi, jest yn gyflym, gyflwyno eich hun? Diolch. 

So, therefore, we move on to item 2, teaching of Welsh history, culture and heritage, and this is an evidence session with representatives of Race Council Cymru. For the record, would it be okay for you, just quickly, to introduce yourselves? Thank you.

Thank you, Chair. My name is Uzo Iwobi, and I'm one of the community supporters for black history in the race council.

Abu-Bakr Madden Al-Shabazz 10:04:23

My name is Abu-Bakr Madden Al-Shabbazz. I'm an educational consultant, a former deputy head teacher of a private school, and I specialise in black and African history.

My name is Vernesta Cyril. My profession before was as a midwife, but I've always been involved in race and equality.

My name is Carl Connikie. I'm lead educationalist, I suppose, for Race Council Cymru. Recently I've been rolling out some training for schools in and around Gwent and the Bridgend area, all over Wales, really—southern Wales, anyway.

10:05

Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am roi'r cyflwyniadau hynny. Os dŷch chi'n deall yr hyn dŷn ni'n ei wneud fel pwyllgor, fel arfer, mae gyda ni gwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol, ac felly, os mae'n iawn gyda chi, byddwn ni'n mynd i mewn i'r cwestiynau hynny. Does dim angen i chi ymateb i bob cwestiwn—i bawb ar y panel ymateb i bob cwestiwn.

Felly'r cwestiwn cyntaf sydd gen i yw: sut mae amrywiaeth yn cael ei chynrychioli ar hyn o bryd yn y cwricwlwm hanes a pha wersi y gellid eu dysgu o'r cwricwlwm newydd? Roedd rhai o'r ymchwilwyr, cyn dod yma heddiw, wedi edrych ar Hwb a gweld efallai bod dim lot yno ar hyn o bryd, felly beth yw'r sefyllfa o ran amrywiaeth ar y cwricwlwm nawr?

Great. Thank you very much for those introductions. If you understand what we usually do as a committee, we have questions based on different themes and therefore, if it's okay with you, we'll go straight into those questions. There's no need for you to respond to every question—there's no need for everybody on the panel to respond to every question.

So, the first question I have is: how is diversity currently represented within the history curriculum, and what lessons can be learnt from the new curriculum? Some of the researchers, before coming here today, had looked on Hwb and seen that there wasn't much there at the moment, so what is the situation in terms of diversity on the curriculum now?

Thank you so much, Chair. This has been our life's work. Race Council Cymru manages the Black History Wales-wide movement and the Windrush Cymru Elders' movement. And we really listened, through an initiative funded by arts council Wales to go around the whole of Wales talking to people about what matters in terms of black history work. And, unanimously, there was a strong sense from people of African decent, people of Asian decent, that we spoke to, that felt that it is a missed opportunity in Wales, that the history of Wales is not complete, because black history has never been documented from the mouths of black people. And we believe that—. Many, many years ago, black people came here, pre the Windrush, centuries ago, people from—you know, Jews have settled here, Somalis, Yemenis. Butetown is full of people who served in the Docks area, merchant seamen—none of their stories are told in our schools. The inventions of black people, people like Frederick Douglass, people who made the traffic light signals—nobody knows that they were black people—or the lawnmower.

We think that, unfortunately, looking at the previous curriculum—. We've been able to serve on the strategic board of the curriculum team in Wales and have highlighted very clearly that this is—. There is a burning need today to address this injustice. Because the histories of people like Mrs Cyril and Mrs Betty Campbell, who was the first black headmistress in the school—none of the kids know. And, recently, though the work that was commissioned by Jane Hutt, the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip, where she funded some Windrush school programmes, that story began to come out. And I'll just invite Mrs Cyril to share a bit of her own experience as a Windrush elder and the fact of its absence in the history here in Wales.

My story began in 1962. I'm from a little island in the Caribbean called Saint Lucia, and that was a British protectorate before it became independent in 1979. However, I was invited here and my chosen subject was to do nursing—either teaching or nursing, but it was a no-go area for me to go into teaching in this country—black people weren't allowed, or you had to fight hard—so, I chose nursing and my ambition was to be a midwife.

So, after my general nursing, I went into midwifery and that's where I stayed for nearly 40 years. The struggle wasn't easy. As you know, the big institutions, you could have one or two people who were not racist, but the majority were at that particular time, so I had to work 50 times as hard to get where I ended up. It's not all negative; I don't like to put mostly negative. But I think it's uncomfortable for people to hear the negativity of it. I was a black woman who happened to have a passion. So, through my midwifery career, I delivered hundreds of babies and one of the things, before I left, this young lady came to me and she was going in to do—I know she's a surgeon now, and she said, 'You delivered me', and I said, 'Oh', because, when everything goes all right, you don't remember people; when things go wrong, you do remember. So, 'Yes', she said, 'My mother sends her love'. 'Oh, my life's in your hands now'.

However, the positive side of it—. Racism made me feel worthless and racism shaped me as well for who I am today. So, for whatever reason it was, I was honoured by an OBE, then the cream of it all, through my work, was being nominated for Midwife of the Year, which I had in 2006, across the whole of Great Britain. I still feel, sometimes—. I was made to feel worthless, in the early stages, and then it made me feel I wasn't worthy, but you think, 'I've still got to pull my clothes', when I went to Buckingham Palace. I still got stuck to the chair when I went as Midwife of the Year.

However, I felt the 60 years of the NHS—. Sixty years last year—

10:10

Seventy.

Seventy years. At 60 years, I was invited by Newport council, which had a little festivity and invited, looked at, the people who contributed a lot. But, at 70 years, I felt a pang of hurt that there wasn't—. Well, were black people important? Black nurses, black midwives—were they important? I wasn't invited to anything. I saw it on the tv, and I said, 'They must know about me,' and I wasn't invited, and I thought, 'This is why our history needs to be told.'

Going to the schools with Mr Connikie—well, it was cool. The youngsters were so eager—things they didn't know anything about, lots of stuff we tried to talk about. I was giving them—starting from the negative and showing them how hard work, where it can take you and the positive side of my story, where I went to, where I came from, because we were taught everything of the English syllabus. It was a British colony. 'The Charge of the Light Brigade'—I was just reciting it—Kipling's 'If', Shakespeare, you name it, and everything was taught as it was taught here. When I came here, I didn't know how to speak English—how long it took me to learn English and what type of clothes you wore, so, I walked around naked, when I want to be facetious, I say.

But a Church of England school I went to, Church of England the church—confirmed, first communion, you name it, the whole thing that went with England on a smaller scale. So, my story is—. I need to tell this story to our young people, not just black children, white children. Black children feel they haven't got a story. I rang my granddaughter and her friend last night—they're 11-year-olds—'What do you think of having stories about people from different cultures? Black people who've contributed to Wales, or across England as well.' And she said, 'Yes, because we only know about the white history. There's nothing that tells about your history unless you tell us—about other people's history as well.' And I think, as we know, multicultural—the children are leaving to go to universities all over England. They go to places to do their sabbatical—like Saint Lucia; I know a few doctors went there to do their three-month sabbatical. So, if you don't know about your stories, you don't know what to expect of these people, and your expectation is very low, because you think you go there and they're still savages or whatever—you hear about the guns and the drugs and other things. Tell our stories. I'd like to have my story and others like me's stories told in school. Thank you for listening.

Jest cyn inni gael pawb i mewn, gwnawn ni gario ymlaen gyda rhai o'r cwestiynau os ydy hwnna'n iawn, ac wedyn gallwch chi ymateb fel hynny. Ond diolch, Vernesta, roedd hwnna'n wefreiddiol i glywed, ac rwyf fi'n credu pe byddech chi'n gallu mynd i mewn i bob ysgol byddai hwnna'n help mawr. Dŷn ni'n symud ymlaen nawr at gwestiynau gan John Griffiths. Diolch.

Just before we bring everyone in, we'll carry on with the questions, if that's okay, and then you can respond to those. Thank you very much, Vernesta, it was very striking to hear that, and I think that if you could go into all schools, that would greatly help. We now move on to questions from John Griffiths. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I wonder if I could ask a few questions about the position of history in the new curriculum, really. Before we get, perhaps, on to questions of diversity, generally, what do you think the place of history, and specifically Welsh history and a Welsh perspective, should be within that humanities area of learning and experience that's proposed?

I just think that—. I've had a look at the draft curriculum that is out for consultation, and I personally organised the meeting of the curriculum team with the pioneer schools with the Wales-wide—people from west Wales, south Wales, mid Wales, north Wales, east Wales. We all came together for a day and reviewed that curriculum, and especially with the tester of, 'How inclusive is it?' We do think that, at the moment, the curriculum sets out an open platform where a lot of creative work could be done, and we think that it is a wonderful opportunity to really excite the children to learn in a very different way, in a very creative way, really positive. I think it is missing a significant contribution from all parts of Wales.

We are interested in learning about 1066, the Norman conquest, which we were taught in Nigeria—I came from Nigeria. Coming here, my children were born in Swansea, and they learned about 1066, the Norman conquest, but they know nothing of people like Paul Robeson, who came and fought for the miners. They know nothing about the people like Betty Campbell, the first black headmistress. They know nothing of Mrs Cyril's story or Iris de Freitas—some of the black contributors who have made a huge impact, and I think it's a seriously missed opportunity. The element that we raised as a concern to the curriculum team is the fact that some of it is left to the decision of the teacher, and in regions where there are no black people and they decide to do a local history lesson, the likelihood that those children will be equipped to be full citizens of the world, global citizens, as well as Welsh people, is going to be limited.

So, we were delighted when the Deputy Minister announced that she wants to ensure that Windrush history is part of the curriculum and will be taught in all schools without fail. And that announcement came at the service of the joint gospel churches that were started by Windrush elders in Newport. So, that was a big moment for us. We were absolutely heartened because at least some of the history—. But I think that Abu-Bakr will be able to talk about the work he was doing with Betty Campbell and Humie Webbe in terms of shaping the curriculum and what it could look like, if it was more inclusive.

10:15
Abu-Bakr Madden Al-Shabazz 10:17:04

I worked with Betty Campbell. One of the things is that she was the first teacher, lead teacher as well, to incorporate multicultural education, very successfully, into the curriculum. And she did that single-handedly. This was long before the Rampton report was issued in 1981 and the Swann report in 1985, which looked at multicultural education, which is missing within the curriculum. I started off as a lecturer doing things within the community, and I worked up until I ended up establishing a black and African history studies programme at a degree level at Cardiff University for approximately nine years. Now, there is a lot that is missing within the curriculum. There are some schools that actually address within the curriculum multicultural education or even black history specifically, but the concern here for many teachers as well as pupils is that they seem to focus primarily on slavery. One of the things I've said—. Many teachers ask, 'How can we actually deal with a multicultural curriculum?' I've said, 'Well, just look at the existing factors within the curriculum and just blend it in—first world war, second world war, industrial revolution. There is no doubt that we are central to the development of these three things. So, these are just some of the things that I would like to highlight, but the main thing that I want to emphasise here, if we're looking at the curriculum, is that I believe that, if black history is going to be taught within the curriculum throughout Wales, it needs to focus primarily on Wales as well as the global village, but the other thing as well is that it needs to be saturated in all disciplines. It needs to be acknowledged within physics—all the sciences: physics, biology—mathematics, whatever the case may be, so they can see the contribution through all fields. I don't think it should be relegated to just geography and history lessons. So, this is my stance on the curriculum.

I wonder if I could ask, Uzo, if you feel that, up to now, you've had sufficient opportunity to be involved in the new curriculum and the design of the new curriculum.

At the time that we started the work, Race Council Cymru was the representative of ethnic minority groups on the third sector partnership council facilitated by the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, and we started lobbying then to join the strategic board, the stakeholder board, that was making decisions. Sadly, it took about a year and half before we were brought on board and, by then, the Donaldson input had been completed, the curriculum had been drafted. So, of course, we gave feedback on that, but we were reassured that it was a flexible document and still very much open to review and inclusion, and that, at the moment, there's a current consultation ongoing, and this is the right time to bring all the thoughts that we have together. So, notes from the meeting with the wider ethnic minority groups—the black, Asian and minority ethnic people—are available to the curriculum team.

We do call out to them to include not just anything about slavery, because then what's happened is it's triggered a rise in racism in schools, where the children, as young as three and a half—. We had a call the other day from a school in the Valleys. The teacher was absolutely in despair, and said that five incidents of racism happened in the one week, where a three and a half year old child told another three and half year old black child to leave them and not come out to play, because they looked like black, ugly monkeys. That was the fifth incident in the school, and she was saying, 'We are at our tethers' end as teachers. We don't know how to deal with consistent bad and inappropriate behaviour that these kids have been subjected to.' Some of the language actually could not be attributed to a three and a half year old child, so they're hearing this from somebody.

So, I think there has to be holistic work done to correct the impression in schools that black people are only good for drugs, alcohol abuse, criminals, because that's what we see in the media, and social media is very good at sharing bad stories of criminals being arrested, looking very angry and cross. Nobody tells the stories of courage and contribution, innovation, science. It will raise the profile and aspiration of black and Asian minority ethnic children, but also it will ensure that white young children hear those positive stories that mean that they can actually look, 'Oh, that happened. Well, that could be something you could want to do.' My children never had those stories in their own schools. But I think Carl wanted to mention something about—

10:20

Yes, just to pick up on what Uzo said there. What we did was—to address those things that she's just mentioned there, which I think are quite horrific, actually—we devised a school programme that Mrs Cyril and myself delivered throughout the south part of Wales from Llanharan in the west through to Undy in the east. Basically, we gave them a history lesson of the Windrush, then we told Mrs Cyril's personal story as an adult coming to Wales and enduring some of the things that she did, and I also told my story. I arrived here in 1966 as a child, so I gave them a child's story. But the overarching message was—. We took Mrs Cyril's OBE, and we showed the children, and a few other things that we showed—. She's got many awards, I can promise you that. We showed them to the children, and the overarching message was that you too can achieve great things.

Now, for me, that says to white children who are in deprived areas of Wales that no matter what colour you are, you can achieve things, and to the minority children—. We went to Maindee school, where there are over 40 different languages spoken, so you can imagine the ethnic diversity there. What we tried to show those children who were of ethnic minority some examples: I joined the Metropolitan Police, I had many commendations working with Gwent Police as a civilian. So, the message was from both of us that you too can achieve; black or white, it doesn't matter.

Secondly, or lastly, I think that there's a phrase that goes something like, 'If you can see it, you can be it,' and we tried to deliver that message of being able to see it, so they could also be it. The response that we've had from the schools was fantastic. I think all the kids that we saw—they sat open mouthed. Honestly, they sat open mouthed. They thoroughly enjoyed what we gave them, but the sad thing was that they really didn't know anything about the Windrush people. They didn't know anything about the Windrush generation or anything, so it was new ground for them. But nevertheless, they received it, and received it well, and we've had some fantastic feedback from the schools, and ideally we would like to run the programme for Black History Month and do the same thing next year, given the opportunity. 

10:25

Grêt. Diolch yn fawr yn iawn, Carl, mae hwnna'n ddiddorol iawn, ac mae'n ddefnyddiol iawn. Jest achos fy mod i ddim eisiau symud ymlaen yn rhy glou o'r cyhuddiadau rydych chi wedi'u gwneud, Uzo, dwi'n deall y byddwch chi'n gallu delio gyda nhw, ond os ydych chi eisiau help gan Aelodau Cynulliad i ddelio gyda materion o hiliaeth yn yr ysgolion hynny, boed os ŷn ni'n cynrychioli'r ardal neu beidio, i fod yn onest, plis dewch atom ni er mwyn inni roi help ichi. Ddylai hwnna ddim fod yn digwydd. 

Great. Thanks very much, Carl, for that. That was interesting and useful. Just because I don't want to move on too quickly from the accusations that you made, Uzo, I understand that you would be able to deal with them, but if you need any assistance from Assembly Members to deal with issues of racism in those schools, whether we represent the areas or not, to be honest, please come to us so that we can support you. That should not be happening. 

If that happened in the Valleys, I represent South Wales East, so if there's anything I can do to help you—. 

Thank you so much. 

Diolch yn fawr unwaith eto, Gadeirydd. 

Thank you once again, Chair.

I think Carl has just spoken about how you can help, actually—how race equality groups and members of ethnic minorities might help with the actual delivery. Because we were talking about the design. If we just move on to delivery, I think it's very useful, what Carl had to say. Is there anything you might add in terms of how you can help, how race equality bodies can help, with the actual delivery of the new curriculum?

We are very hopeful that the proposals that have been put together post this Windrush presentation that had an overwhelmingly positive message—and more schools are calling for support, and they liked the fact that it was coming from a positive place, and it wasn't 'Don't do racism' or pointing fingers, and 'You're racist. Your mother is racist, you've been hearing racist stories'. They're hearing positive stories that counter that. So, things around—we've approached the Minister for Education to explore actually a little bit of funding to have a Wales-wide development of the stories of the Windrush, and black history, and to be able to have that installed in Hwb, so that all schools can access them for different levels.

So, conversations are beginning to happen, because the Windrush Cymru elders lead the work of the Windrush in Wales, so, Mrs Cyril and others like her, Patty Flynn, the Campbell family who are involved, Mr Len Lawrence, who's from one of the oldest Jamaican families—not the first, but one of them—they're all involved in bringing this about, in their lifetimes, they say. Patty Flynn tells stories, Chair, of the fact that five members of her family died in the world wars: her great-grandfather in world war one, her grandfather in world war two, her father, her two brothers. And she talks about 200 families in Butetown alone that lost every single male member of the family, and they have never been recognised or acknowledged by Wales. I think it is time that Wales steps up to change and correct this injustice to black people, really, in Wales.

In Betty Campbell's lifetime she never got to see any of it or hear any of it. She did it by force in her own school in Mount Stuart, and many of the children, white and black, that she taught have gone on to become teachers themselves, and said that changed their lives and their perception of their ability to engage with the issues. We shared with the curriculum team contributions of people like Ronnie Rush, the first Caribbean boxing coach with a private boxing company, Denzil Lawrence, the first black martial artist, who owned the first gym in Wales, Steven Robinson, the first black featherweight boxing champion—who knows that—Rosie Parris, the first black Welsh female who successfully spearheaded the media campaign against police discrimination in Cardiff, with the Cardiff five. We think of people like Ryan Giggs, Paul Robeson, Nathanial Wells, Abdulrahim, who was born in Cardiff, and is a Somali man, who rose to a No. 2 position in the United Nations, serving as UN Under-Secretary-General. Who knows that history in Wales?

Our children need, especially black children and Asian children—they need their eyes lifted, because many of them feel quite demoralised, disempowered and sometimes needing—. I hear some of them saying, 'What will it take for me to be white? I want to be white; I want to have a pink face and have pink cheeks.' And I'm saying to them, 'But don't you want to look like your mother and father?' The sense of needing to belong to the white community is so strong in some of our children, and that is frightening because we are all beautiful the way that we are and to teach people about who is successful, who is a role model and who has achieved great things will inspire, not just black kids, but white kids.

But the sad things for us as the Black history movement is that our children don't know their own history, which is sad. It's interesting to read about 1066 and the Norman conquest, but how impactive is it really to all of us here in Wales? I'd rather hear stories about young white and black people from Wales, who've made us all proud. This is the Wales that we want to belong to.

10:30

Diolch yn fawr iawn. That's very inspirational. John, do you have any other questions?

Firstly, I'd like to say that so much of what you're saying is inspiring and a lot of what you're saying is enough to make people—well, me—ashamed of the things that I didn't know. So, I really think this evidence session is incredibly important. So, thank you all so much for what you're saying. 

You've mentioned, Uzo, that one of the potential strengths of the new curriculum is how there's an openness there to be creative. Do you think that there is a danger that it's too vague and that because of that lack of specificity, then, that might mean that not enough of these stories are being told? I know that that is an issue, but do you think that's because of a vagueness?

This is absolutely the spot-on concern that was raised at the curriculum session by the Wales-wide black, Asian and minority ethnic committee that met with the curriculum team. They said, for example, if you look at some of the sections of the curriculum where they present the areas of learning and experience, they specify sexuality and sexual gender training at a very young age, so that will be covered. There is nothing on black history, there is nothing on diverse ethnic histories, there is nothing on Windrush history. And they said, 'Well, teachers will be creative', and I said, 'Yes, they will be', and some amazing schools are doing phenomenal work. I'm thinking of schools—a pioneer school that is near where I live, called Llanrhidian Primary School. They do such a lot of diverse—. They bring Chinese people into talk, they bring Africans in; they bring diverse—. And the kids are learning masses—loads. But it is left to the decision of that teacher and that class and that school, and that's not good enough.

I do think, to be sure that this is captured, it needs to be nailed down. We need to nail our colours to that mast and say—just like sexuality is included specifically and will be covered—that the stories and contributions to the history of Wales and Wales's development as a society will not be complete if we don't tell the stories of the black, Asian and minority-ethnic servicemen and women who died—bled and died—alongside white counterparts and comrades on those war fronts, and about the people who came back maimed and injured, people who sacrificed so much, who were not even allowed to march down the streets of Cardiff with their white counterparts, but they were good enough to go and die in those fields. It's not justice and this is not—. Wales is beautiful; we love Wales— 

Dwi'n hoffi Cymru. Dwi'n dysgu Cymraeg. Mae'n wych—Wales.

I love Wales and I am learning Welsh. Wales is wonderful.

It's just important that the whole history of this beautiful nation sings loud, through the ages, to inspire young people. I remember my child growing up and being locked in a toilet in a school in Swansea—he was born in Swansea—and being beaten by four white youths and told to go home because he was a black penguin and they didn't want them. This happened to my child. Today he's a solicitor, but it took a long time to shift his mindset from hating white people. Imagine that happened to a family where they weren't really going to educate their children—the kids left home and went on the streets. This is how negativity starts because they face negative stuff. If we tell these stories in a positive way, give children an alternative to the criminals that they see on media—. But, coming back to your question, it is so vital to us that that is stated within the curriculum. I think that people like Mrs Cyril would definitely want the stories of Betty Campbell told.

We did a list of 100 'Welsh, brilliant and black' last year as part of our icons of black history: 100 people that were voted for by the local community, the grass roots—everyday people that they wanted marked. That could be a list that is developed as a starting point, but all children should see those pictures and images, done by WalesOnline. I definitely think that that is so vital because not to is actually a stain on the Welsh conscience. I do think that our children need to hear our stories.   

10:35

I agree wholeheartedly. Sorry, do you want to come in?

Can I just say something? I went to something the Welsh Government supported, about the army—the first celebration. I brought up something about a little island like St Lucia—a submarine came right into the harbour and bombed a tourist boat. Nobody knew about that. I said, 'Yes, it happened.' Because Britain—the ships weren't coming across the Atlantic, they came around the Caribbean, and they came right in there and bombed the Lady Nelson, a Canadian tourist boat. There were only rich people on it. They only got the anchor a couple of years ago. Around the area where I lived, you could see the ships coming in. Nobody knew that bit of history.

Why was Trinidad so important to the British? For the oil during the war. Why were places like St Lucia—? I heard the history. I love history. A bit of St Lucia was given to the Americans in exchange for helping them in the war. So, you had American soldiers there, with their own airport and their own fleet coming in, because they knew the German U-boats were coming around there. Nobody knows this history. Island history. I had to salute in the morning, at assembly. I saluted the flag and the mighty empire over which—[Inaudible.] I turned to my friends and they laughed. I said, 'You had done it.' Then hymns and prayers, and you started school. 

My grounding was very good because it was the same syllabus as here. I was educated well. As I saw when I came here—I saw the negativity, but that didn't put me—. I knew I was going to, and I wanted to do it well. If I had to do it 200 times, I was going to do it. So, a lot of history has happened down there in that Caribbean island. They needed Jamaica because of the bauxite. Children don't know these histories. Yes, they know about world war one and world war two. They don't tell them about the young soldiers who went to work with Monty—the regiment from the Caribbean—in the desert, helping the war thing. I have got a picture of my uncle and some of them in his regiment, working with Montgomery. Nobody knows that. It's so much history we can give.

I had to learn the history. I had to learn all the history from here. If you sat your exams and you didn't know the history, because it was a British protectorate, then that's it. I was well taught. My headmaster said, 'Read and be well read.' I was well taught. I was ready because I knew about the history. I never thought about that little bit of history. I'd come, and I'd be looked at as an alien. Nevertheless, there are lots of positives that have come out of it, and that is me. But there is so much history. 

Chair, can I just add that, recently, Race Council Cymru secured a grant from the National Lottery Heritage Fund to undertake an 18-month storytelling—? Collecting the stories of the contributions of people of Windrush. That is being progressed by Dr Adeola Dewis. All across the whole of Wales, she's going around collecting stories, working Dr Marian Gwyn, who is our head of heritage, and has done a lot of work with the Wales archives to collect black history stories, stories about the copper works, stories about the wool industry, the histories and the contributions of enslavement and how that impacted on Penrhyn castle. It's incredible. This is all black history and not told or learnt by schools across Wales. So, I do think—

10:40

Pa mor hir fydd y prosiect yna'n para? Pryd fyddwch chi'n cael canlyniadau o hynny?

How long will that project last? When will you get some outcomes from that?

Eighteen months. 

They've started lodging the stories in St Fagans and People's Collection Wales, but we're also hoping to pull it together as part of the package that will be put—if we're successful with getting this whole story told—together in the Hwb, so that that can help teachers find resources that are credible to include in their sessions. We've actually talked to a caricature drawer—you know, somebody who draws, an illustrator for children, so that they can do it for kids as young as three and right up to secondary school, so that all teachers can grab those resources and use them if the curriculum captures the need. 

Ocê. Delyth, oes cwestiwn arall gyda ti?

Okay. Delyth, do you have any further questions?

Un arall, plis.

Yes, just one more, please. 

This is very relevant to what's already been said. I was going to ask whether there are specific either dates or subject areas that you think should be specified that should definitely be covered in the curriculum in terms of black history. But a number of you have already mentioned that so much of what's already in the curriculum actually just focuses on slavery or on the negatives or on a very specific view of black history, rather than looking at how black history is part of all history and how, like you've already been saying, it's about how it's woven into what we are taught about the world wars, about just everything, and not just in history—but that's outside the scope of this inquiry—but through all subjects as well. Do you think that there should be specified moments or themes? But do you also think that there could be unintended consequences of that, because then it's a very specific narrative that would be told? 

That's a massive—that's a very important one. I do believe that—there's an African saying that until lions begin to speak, the tale of the hunt will always glorify the hunters. We want, as black people, to tell our own story, not have other people write about them into history. That's really powerful. That's really important. That's authentic. I think that if we make it specific to years in particular—this is why it's not just important in history, and I'll bring Abu-Bakr in. I don't think it should be a history lesson. I think it should be in personal and social education. I think it should be in examples from as far back as we can research. This is part of what we're hoping to work with the Minister for Education on. If we're able to dig up as far back as we can get up to current history, then schools have a choice, literally, within this creative, influential curriculum, to shape the stories that they capture and use. That element I'm happy to leave to them to decide, based on their regions.

And what we want to do also is to tell stories that are regional, so to find black, Asian and minority people who have impacted in the Valleys, in north Wales, in Wrexham, in Flintshire, in Denbighshire, in Swansea, in Carmarthen and Pembrokeshire. So, we're going with history groups in those regions to collect stories that they've all heard about. Somebody contacted us and said, 'Have you heard of the story of Iris de Freitas, who was the first African-Caribbean born in Aberystwyth, who became a lawyer and transformed the legal system when she went to the Caribbean islands?' We didn't know that. That came from a historical contribution from one girl called Amaray at Aberystwyth University, So, those are the kinds of things that we want to do. But Abu-bakr, do you want to—?

10:45
Abu-Bakr Madden Al-Shabazz 10:45:10

I think one of the things that we’re trying to say, if we’re looking at the curriculum, is that we want every person within the curriculum, whether they’re teachers or whether they're pupils, to feel blended, to feel balanced, and to feel centred—this is the main thing. Because, unfortunately, when many black and brown children go to school from the age of three to four, they already know they’re ignored, not just by the teacher, but by the curriculum. They know this. And it has not been addressed since 1948. This has been a long time—this is over 70 years that this has been happening. Reports have been done by Westminster and Parliament highlighting the aspect of the monocultural view where people from minority groups—whether they’re black, brown, yellow or red—are literally excluded, and they’re just told to get on with it. And the thing is, like I said, one of the things that we were saying earlier is that that history and geography needs to reflect this historical reality. But like I said, personally, we want to create more entrepreneurial people from amongst our people. We don’t want them just to see that it’s only music, sports and drama they can make it in. We want them to know they can make it in physics—they can by physicists, they can be chemists. And they can do all the other things like mathematicians. And we need to push this, because there’s a deficit in our community, especially where literacy is concerned, and we need to create this next generation to bridge this gap—to bridge this polarisation. The west is developing, Wales is developing, and we as a people want to develop with Wales, and with the Welsh people, because we are Welsh.

Absolutely.

Abu-Bakr Madden Al-Shabazz 10:46:51

And this is something that I feel that the curriculum really needs to address. We’re not looking to isolate or alienate other groups of people. And this is why I said, if we’re going to look at the first world war, include us. If we’re going to look at industrialisation, include us. Because we were there, directly or indirectly. And a lot of what took place during the enslaving period—because even from Wales, if we look at Henry Morgan, he was the first governor of Jamaica—most of that wealth that came from Jamaica helped to build Newport and it helped to build Newport Road. We need to acknowledge this—this is local history. So, this is one of the things that I want to emphasise, that we’re looking to bring a balance to all pupils within school—their emotional development as well as their cognitive or psychological development—where the curriculum is concerned.

Sorry—just very quickly—but there would be a danger, potentially, of having, say, one module that looked at black history, rather than it being part of it all. 

Exactly. This is what we're saying—that it needs to permeate everything, because we are proud Welsh citizens and we just want our stories to be included alongside our white brothers and sisters in Wales.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Delyth. Symud ymlaen at Rhianon Passmore.

Thank you very much, Delyth. Moving on to Rhianon Passmore.

Thank you very much for that. I'm not going to echo what Delyth has said, but I think she spoke quite eloquently about what your position is so far. Regarding the importance of not having a stand-alone module, and having an isolated part of the curriculum, the current Cwricwlwm Cymreig is, and should be, and is inspected as, cross-cutting throughout the curriculum, and it's supposed to permeate it in that fashion. This study, in terms of our inquiry today, will be looking at how we can actually improve Welsh history and the study of that. And there are concerns and discussions about are our teachers in the right position, have they had the correct teacher training to be able to do so. So, I’m going to concentrate my comments around that area. So, from your perspective, do you feel that our teachers today—? And I’ll fess up—I did my teacher training in Fitzalan, so I’ve had a huge experience across the education sector in many different schools, and each school, as you’ve already stated, has a different approach. And this can be an opportunity for us as well as a negative. So, in terms of teachers having an ability to work within a flexible curriculum, and the autonomy to choose within that flexible curriculum, my first question is: do you feel that our teachers across Wales, in your experience, have the capacity to be trained in this area? I’m sure you can comment on that. But my second question, really, is: do you actually feel that it should be down to an individual headteacher's leadership to be able to address your particular concerns around the mainstreaming of black and ethnic minority history in terms of purely Welsh history?

10:50

Thank you so much. I'll bring in Carl in a minute in terms of the school work that we have done across north Wales and south Wales, but in terms of your question, teachers have told us that they don't know half what they ought to know, and they feel totally restrained because they don't feel competent to deliver these sessions. It's a matter of resources. If resources are made available, we have the strength and commitment and personnel to be able to deliver this across all ethnic minority organisations in Wales that are active through the Wales Race Forum. But also, as a black history movement, as a Windrush movement, as a race council, there is a lot of appetite to support schools, because if teachers get it right, then the students are taught properly. Now, there is an additional challenge, because some of the behaviours that we're seeing in schools come from home, come from adults, come from wider society, and that's a wider issue. I think the local education authorities have a duty to push this agenda and to make sure that black history is not just taught as a—. I think it has to be a merged approach; taught as stand-alone but also permeated through everything else.

Do you feel that PSE—personal and social education sessions—as you've referenced earlier and in terms of the focus of what we've been talking about, not having a singular module—? Do you feel, then, that the history of Wales should be taught as a separate entity, and that includes what we've been talking about, or do you feel it should continue in a cross-cutting fashion across the curriculum? I mean, it's a very wide centre that we're talking about here.

That's right. I do think that it has to be both, because of the deficit. Up to now, there has been an absolute absence of positive contributions to the history and development of Wales. So, I think we have to have the stand-alone and then have a cross-cutting theme right across the curriculum. That's what we're pushing for, as an organisation. I think, also—and I think you might want to come in, in terms of the work with Mrs Campbell. Going back to your original question, the teachers have told us that they need help. Estyn attended the session that we organised with the curriculum team, and we encouraged Estyn to test schools on their inclusion of black history in terms of their lessons and the understanding of teachers. I think the consortia have an opportunity to commission work from all of us, all the BME groups that are available. You can't have too many. We all have information that I'm hoping we can bring into a cohesive whole.

Okay. So, going back to the capacity of teachers, you feel there is a definitive need to put that training and resource in place. Is there agreement on that?

Abu-Bakr Madden Al-Shabazz 10:53:23

Yes.

I'm interested in your point—Chair, if I may—in regard to Estyn inspection, because obviously the Cwricwlwm Cymreig is part of that inspection at the moment. So, in terms of what we are calling 'Welsh history', I think you're in agreement that we should definitively have recognition of black and ethnic minority history within that, mainstreamed, and, as far as you're concerned, as well—and tell me if I'm summing you up wrong—also as a singular module.

That's right.

Okay. So, going back to teaching capacity and initial teacher training, do you feel that there is a current deficit there, bearing in mind there is no mandatory requirement as of the moment, outside of Jane Hutt's announcement around Windrush? And we mustn't ignore that. But you do think that's important, then, that that deficit is filled, and—?

Can I just answer something? I used to go to London, to the Caribbean Teachers Association, and one of the things the London schools had was exchange teachers from London—white or black—going to the Caribbean, spending six months there, and some teachers from the Caribbean coming back to London. So, that's one of the things that you would do. You know, because you come back and tell about the training opportunities they had there, whereas the training in the Caribbean—there's a lot of the word 'hustling'. The parents had to give them the best of education now, because you've got to pay for the unis, you've got to pay for this. So, there was a lot of work. They had something about an American professor—an English professor from America—at one of their launches, and one of the things he was surprised at going to a Birmingham school, the children in the playground were singing, sort of, 'Nigger, nigger, touch my toes', or something to that notion, which he was appalled at, being in Birmingham—it's really multi-ethnic—that the children who were singing that didn't realise—. And someone was saying, 'He runs as fast as'—something—'a nigger'—something they said, which really brought back the history of lynching, which he felt was ignorance. So, I think—. Well, it's funding, again, doing exchange teachers—that's funding again. But I think if teachers are aware of all that rich, rich history—

10:55

You see that there would be a place for exchange as part of that training.

—just from Africa and the Caribbean. Yes. And that's why you would do it, because one of my friends, in the end, she had a headteaching job in Vauxhall, somewhere around there, and she enjoyed every minute. She was born of black parentage, but went to Jamaica for a six-month stint. And to see the work that was being done with teachers, the circumstances were as good as the circumstances here, but the work that was being produced was—

So, you'd see that exchange programme as actually an enriching experience.

I think that that's a brilliant idea, but I have a feeling that we might have them coming back to say, 'We don't have the capacity to release teachers to go anywhere.' 

Well, that's what I said about the funding.

So, I think we have—

Exactly. 

We have the nations here in Wales, in the Somali community we have one of the oldest communities in Cardiff—we could arrange for teachers to have sessions with them or bring them into schools. We have the Jewish communities who have been here for centuries. We can bring them in to talk to teachers, to inform them, to contribute to learning days for teachers where it's all around developing their knowledge of ethnic histories that are based in Wales. They don't need to travel far. We are all here and we're volunteering our time to actually work with teachers. But I know Abu and—

We're running out of time fast. So, if we could keep answers relatively short.

If I can come at this from a practical point of view, I've heard the academic argument and they all have their place, but, practically, my experience, going to these schools in June, was that the teachers learned as much as the pupils. The teachers were not aware of these histories, especially of the Windrush and the contribution that we all made. So, I do think that there is room to teach teachers and for them to present it, but I also think that you have the resources here. The resources are here to help you to provide that teaching experience, and I think Race Council Cymru has already started to do that. So, I think, if you were to just, I don't know, use that resource, I think that would be a great help.

So, the ingredients are there. I was very struck in terms of what you said about how we shouldn't be just looking in terms of the black and ethnic minority communities for role models within music and the arts et cetera, et cetera. There's been some discussion about a lack of diversity in teaching initial training, in terms of those students coming in. You mentioned, Vernesta, at the beginning that you were thinking of teaching originally. So, do you think there is any argument around that? Is it part and parcel of the fact that we just need to be holistic in terms of our ambition?

Abu-Bakr Madden Al-Shabazz 10:58:50

I've done teacher training at Cardiff University, and, unfortunately, I feel that most of the teachers who could become good teachers, unfortunately, the vast majority of them come from dominant cultural backgrounds, and when they go on to these PGCE programmes, say, for instance, these educational programmes, the only thing they're left with after the year or two years, whether it's full-time or part-time, when they go into the comprehensive schools, is the negativity, looking at low educational attainments of black and brown students—this is what they focus on—and, obviously, the exclusion aspect. So, what happens now, when those teachers who've got that mentality—how are they going to now deliver effectively black history within their educational programme and within their lesson plans? This is where the fear lies now, because if they've got all those stereotypes—. Because there's this concept called TESA—teachers' expectations et cetera—it actually drives the attainment level of a student. So, for instance, if the teacher's got high expectations for a particular student, studies have shown that that student will succeed. But if the teacher has low expectations for a student now, within the class—because they do pick up that energy—they're actually going to feel they're not going to make it et cetera. And many of the teachers do have this, even though they may not deliver it verbally—the energy that comes out of the instruction, it hits the student, and that student feels he's not going to excel, or whatever the case may be.

11:00

So, in terms of redressing that, you've identified it as an issue, and in terms of the opportunities within the new curriculum that we do have and the input that will happen, how do you feel we can address initial teacher training around that?

I do think that we need to have a comprehensive input into presentations to teachers and the people in the teaching profession. I think the local education authorities have a real key role to play. I think the consortia in commissioning work have to explore that if you don't empower teachers to understand black history themselves, and to be committed to teaching it in a positive way, then, that is, ultimately, going to have a very adverse consequence. And what Abu-Bakr has said is spot on.

My son came back from school and said to me, 'I'm not going to really kill myself. My teacher said that my predicted grade is a C.' I said, 'Who said that?' 'My teacher.' 'Who's your teacher? I'm telling you that you're an A student.' 'Mother, don't be dramatic. I am a C student—my teacher said.' 'No, you're not. Speak to the mirror.' I said, 'Name yourself.' 'I'm Chuka. I am getting an A. I am getting an A'—every morning. He had three straight assignments and he had three straight As. He could not believe that by believing in himself, and this is where Abu-Bakr was saying—when teachers have low expectations of black and ethnic minority children, it affects their outlook. He's ended up from being statemented or being predicted a grade of C to have a 2:1 in law. Many of the kids who were predicted higher grades didn't even end up going to university. So, I think we need to empower all the children of Wales to be the best that they can be, and right now, our concern is that a lot of our young kids have a very low self-esteem. We could have left my son in that situation where he said, 'I'm a C student', and he had given up. He said, 'Never mind, my sister is the one who gets As. I don't need to bother, I'm getting a C. That's it.' And his life has changed because he believed in himself. We just need teachers to believe in all their students and be equipped to deliver that full curriculum to them.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae hwnna'n helpu'n fawr. Roeddwn i jest eisiau gofyn cwestiwn clou, gen i, i orffen, cyn dod at Delyth, i Abu, o ran dysgu, a dwi’n credu Carl hefyd. Rydyn ni wedi ffeindio mas o ystadegau 2017 fod 1.1 y cant  o athrawon yn dod o'r gymdeithas BME, a bod 8 y cant o blant yn mynd i ysgolion—1.1 y cant, mae hwnna'n isel iawn. Beth ydych chi’n credu sydd angen newid i hybu mwy o bobl i fynd mewn i—nid yn unig i fynd mewn i ffiseg ac yn y blaen, ond i fynd mewn i ddysgu hefyd?

Thank you very much. That is of great assistance. I just wanted to ask a quick question, from myself, to end, before coming to Delyth, to Abu, in terms of teaching, and Carl, as well, I think. We found out from the statistics in 2017 that 1.1 per cent of teachers come from the BME community and 8 per cent of children go to schools—1.1 per cent, that is very low. What do you think needs to change to encourage more people not only to go into physics but to go into teaching as well?

Abu-Bakr Madden Al-Shabazz 11:03:30

As far as teachers are concerned, I was a supply teacher for about seven, eight years, and I worked in approximately 30 different schools between Newport and Cardiff. One of the things that I seemed to be addressing when I went into every single lesson is that they never ever—the majority of the students or the pupils—had never had a black or brown teacher in their life. Now, when I came in as a supply teacher, they thought I was either there to do music or PE, not to teach maths and science and whatever the case may be. This is students' perceptions, and I'm talking about schools that are from four-year-olds up to 16. So, there is a problem; there is a deficit in trying to reinforce into the minds of these pupils, at this particular age, that people from the BME community are professional, they can be entrepreneurial, and they can deliver at a high standard that white teachers are delivering at. And that was a major problem. One of the things that they got from me eventually, when I was actually teaching in many of these schools, is that, 'We need more black teachers in the school, sir.' We do. There is a serious deficit, especially within Wales.

Well, 1.1 per cent is shameful, really, isn't it?

Yes. It is a deficit, and, unfortunately, many of those who do end up with degrees from Cardiff University or Swansea, who are black teachers, they end up going to England. They're not being employed by Welsh schools, for some unknown reason.

Absolutely.

Abu-Bakr Madden Al-Shabazz 11:04:58

The majority of them are taking their PGCE programmes to England or Scotland or abroad; they're not being employed in Wales and they're going to Welsh colleges or universities.

11:05

Yes. We had a Chinese volunteer with the black history movement, and she completed her studies here in Cardiff and in Swansea University, University of Wales, and did brilliantly in her PGCE, couldn't get a job in Wales and is now teaching in a secondary school in England. And that's the sad situation. I mean, she would have loved to have stayed in Wales, but you've got to go where the jobs are.

But your question was: what can we do about it? I come from a police background and, if I may say, the same thing has been experienced within the police, where they're not representative of the places in which they police. I've written a paper to the chief constable explaining that, et cetera, et cetera, and it just gets put in a strategy, and you know what happens to strategies: they end up in a drawer.

And I think—. I used to believe, many years ago when I first joined the police, 'I don't want anything given to me, I don't want to be thought of as sort of "Well, he's only got it because he's black."' I wanted to achieve it on my own merits because of the skill that I had and the dedication that I had to whatever work I was doing. And I held that through the 1980s and 1990s, right up to about five years ago, when I realised that nothing was being achieved. And now you have to start to think of more progressive means to achieve equality—

Positive action. Because the idea—. And I used to be a firm disbeliever in positive action. I used to think, 'Well, they'll just think that I've got it because of positive action.' Well, the fact is—. I tell a story of having joined Gwent Police in 1990 as a civilian, and there were no black officers above the rank of PC, and the same was true of women—I think there was one female senior officer. And when you fast forward, then, to round about 2019, now, I think there's one black sergeant in Gwent, but female officers ripple right the way through the rank structure, and I think the same is true in education. I think that there isn't—. The numbers aren't there, and the reason the numbers aren't there is because people will employ people who look like them. And I'm not saying that that's a—it's just what happens. There's no deliberate thing there. It's just that that's what happens. 'I employ people who look like me, speak like me.' And, unfortunately, none of those are black, or very few are black and ethnic minorities. And so, therefore, we now have to introduce, maybe, the Rooney rule wherein we start to say, 'Well, hang on a minute, we have to try to actively—not passively, but actively—do something about that.'

Chair, I think this is really important for the new cross-party group on race, which John Griffiths AM and you will be leading. You have so much power to push through equality on race like never before, and I think that group has such a lot of potential to influence political parties across Wales, so that there is a cohesive agreement on pushing forward this education agenda, because it is our future at stake.

Vernesta, do you want to end on that? I'm running out of time.

Yes. My grandson—. After 16 years living in London, my son decided to relocate down here. He worked in the V&A, then he went into teaching. The school he was in had a lot of black children, lots of black teachers, but he was doing—what do you call it, now? He's not permanently employed—. Agency. And he's shocked at—. You know, he went as far as Abertillery and all these places to do agency work. 'There aren't enough black teachers', he's going. In London, where he worked, the children were black—. And my grandson the same—. After his GCSE levels, Trevor decided to come down here and relocate, and he went to school in Bassaleg. And he was surprised because his school was all mixed—Chinese, Indian, white, black; it was multicultural—and he came down here and he couldn't get into the theme that it was a mostly white school and the teachers were all white, which he couldn't identify with. However, he managed to get himself into Swansea uni, but that caused a little ripple in him, because there was this identification that he had in London, and, coming here, it was so different because his school was—. It didn't show that they had any black—I think they had one black teacher, but not enough.

So, it's just that we need to look at the balance, we need to address it; there are lots of things we need to address. And I know what I said about exchange teachers, but we have the resources as well, but there's no funding—. But I found, you know, Diane Abbott was holding them and Ken Livingstone getting the money and sending them out there, and some of the students as well; some of them went to America, some of the black universities were looking to see what they were doing—

11:10

—but you can't do that, because you haven't got the funding, and funding is—. But one of the things that was very, very good at that time, was when they sent them overseas. That's my little last remark.

Grêt, diolch. Jest un cwestiwn clou, os gall un person ei ateb, ar atebolrwydd, os mae hwnna'n—jest er mwyn inni gyfro pryd mae newidiadau’n digwydd. Delyth, yn glou.

Great, thank you. Just one quick question, one person to answer, on accountability, if that's okay. Just for us to cover when changes come in. Delyth.

Yes, very quickly, what do you think can be done in order to ensure that diversity and representation—that schools are almost held to account to make sure that that definitely will happen? And do you think there's anything specific that needs to be—any specific measures that need to be put in place for that?

So, when we're looking at the new curriculum, in x amount of years' time, how do we bring accountability to bear, really? But just one answer, briefly, sorry.

Okay. We're hoping that Estyn will begin to test specifically on inclusion. We're asking for racism and racist incidents in schools to be recorded, which is not mandated at this time. So, we don't know how many are happening. We're asking for feedback from teachers through parent-teacher associations, governing bodies and individuals who are councillors and representing local authorities or wards, that they begin to ask these questions. I also think that anybody who has the ability to please respond to the consultation that is ongoing at the moment around the curriculum and to push for clear measures to be put into place, for statements about black history, black and diverse ethnic histories, to be included as a taught heading, as a standalone, but then also mainstreaming it through everything that we do. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

Ocê, diolch yn fawr iawn. Dyna'r oll sydd gyda ni o ran amser. Os oes unrhyw beth ychwanegol i chi roi i ni, wedyn plis ysgrifennwch atom ni, ond dyna'r oll sydd gyda ni. Byddwn ni yn ysgrifennu adroddiad ar sail hwn, ar sail yr holl dystiolaeth, so byddwn ni yn cysylltu gyda chi gyda beth dŷn ni'n ei ddweud. Ond diolch yn fawr iawn, mae wedi bod yn hollol ysbrydoledig, ac rwy'n gobeithio byddwch chi'n cael mwy o gyfleoedd i ddod i mewn i roi tystiolaeth, achos, yn sicr, mae wedi bod yn sesiwn dwi wedi mwynhau eithaf lot, so diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much. That's all we had in terms of time. If there's anything in addition that you'd like to provide us with, please write to us, but that's all the time we have at the moment. We will write a report on the basis of this, on the basis of all the evidence, so we will contact you with what we've said. So, thank you very much, it's been very inspiring, and I hope that you have more opportunities to come in and provide evidence, because certainly it's been a session that I've enjoyed, and thank you very much.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr, Chair.

3. Papurau i'w nodi
3. Paper(s) to note

Dŷn ni'n symud ymlaen yn awr at eitem 3, papurau i'w nodi. Mae yna gyfres o lythyrau yma. Ydy pawb yn hapus i nodi'r gohebiaeth?

We move on now to item 3, papers to note. There is a series of letters here. Is everyone content to note the correspondence?

4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 (vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Wedyn, eitem 4 yw cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. Ydy pawb yn hapus?

Then, item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. All content?

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:14.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 11:14.