National Assembly for Wales

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I recognise the arm's-length principle, historically, since the establishment of the arts council post war and so on, but can I just test the Government's underlying philosophy, albeit with the arm's-length principle, about how they see this role of the arts and culture, in its wider sense, including, I have to say, sport as well, tackling the issue of poverty? You mentioned social inclusion; does the Government see, even with its arm's-length principles in place, intact, as they should be, that public money, whichever way it gets into the cultural sector, should have a role in tackling poverty, or should have a role in tackling social exclusion?

The way that arts and culture and sport transform society is by transforming the individuals who participate in those various cultural experiences. And, bless me, and bless them even more, I have seen this endlessly in my work, whether it's our wonderful boxing team at the Commonwealth Games on the Gold Coast, who spoke very frankly on what they might've been doing had they not been successful in their boxing careers, or other dancers, singers and performers, who have clearly been transformed in their personal lives, and indeed, in their career prospects, which is probably more important. It's by participating in art. That's how it happens.

I welcome that. So, the Welsh Government, even with its arm's-length principle in terms of the arts council, even being that other public money will go in through other avenues, such as through local authorities or community funding, and so on, it definitely does see a role in terms of social mobility and through that, tackling poverty by the way that that is marshalled, either through grassroots investment in Dean's boxing club in Ogmore Vale or in the beatbox dance club in Caerau—it sees that link?

Yes, because it is the nature of art and sport to be transformative. That is what it does; it changes the people who participate in it, as well as those who observe it.

Thank you for that, that's very clear. In which case, how do you as a Minister, how does Welsh Government, get the balance right between the support of—and I hate to go back to esoteric concepts—but, between taking the Welsh National Opera out to the people and the support of grassroots organisations—smaller grassroots investment, by whatever means, or larger high culture to the people? This has been an argument that's been going on for generations.

Well, you've chosen a very good example, because you may know that I have worked closely with the WNO for many years, especially in relation to their social programme in the north and in other parts of Wales. And when devolution came, I was asked to provide some advice to the then management of WNO and I made it quite clear that the way that they could ensure support from the newly established institutions in Wales was by making sure that their social mission was absolutely clear. In other words, the visits to schools and the involvement with community groups. And my last engagement was actually in Llandudno, where the community choir they've established in the north was performing for us. Now, this is the way that—. Producing class art in an appropriate social context that people can participate in is the way in which this work is done, and that includes the reasonable prices for ticketing and so on and all the other policies they have.

So, if we refocus, then, Minister, specifically on the Arts Council of Wales, which, as you've made very clear, has an arm's-length principle on that, what discussions do you have with the Arts Council of Wales over whether there should be greater support for grass-roots organisations doing what communities do? And that could be the beatbox club up in Caerau or a cinema screening of WNO's production in Maesteg town hall.

That is a matter for the arts council.

But the Government must have a view on this, because that issue that you talked about, about social inclusion, surely social inclusion also talks to the issue of cultural inclusion and getting that balance right. Surely the Government will have a view on it, because this is to do with tackling, then, poverty, because if you open people’s eyes—

The difference is between what I've tried to do, which is describe in broad terms the social principles, which are to me also aesthetic principles, because participation in the aesthetic experience is itself a social act, but it also has ethical and moral connotations for full citizenship. All those arguments—that's a general position. But how that is delivered has to be done by those we trust to deliver it, and that's why we have an arm's-length arts council. That's why we have a board at the WNO. And that's why I will talk to them usually over a drink late at night after a performance at length about these matters, but my own artistic judgment and my own interests are not a matter to intervene with my work as a Minister.

You've made very clear, Minister, and I welcome the fact, that you do believe in this principle of, if you like, the cultural democratisation of making sure that people have access. There are problems with it, I have to say, because people have pointed out that it's been referred to, in harsh terms, as a sort of cultural apartheid—that those who can afford to will go to watch the WNO; those who can't afford to have a cinema screening somewhere else. But let me rest that for a moment there; there are difficulties with that cultural democracy. But if that is the case, that you do strongly believe in that, then why is it that we still have this—and I say this as an ex-theatre manager—persistent gap in the exposure, the attendance, the willingness to attend of people from different socioeconomic groups to cultural events?

Well, there have to be programmes that are directed towards participation, and the other part of that, of course, is also making sure that performance occurs in accessible places. And that is equally important—outreach includes making performances happen in places that are not conventional theatrical buildings, let's say, if we're speaking about theatre management. We must discuss this more fully.

So, if I strip it away from the arts council specifically, how do you, then, as a Minister, how does Welsh Government, if you have some organisations that you have an arm's-length principle with, but you actually believe in sharing the rich fertile soils of culture with as many people as possible in places close to them, and so on, through different routes, how do you keep an overview on that, how do you monitor that, how do you push that, how do you encourage that if, with your primary arts organisations, you have, I think quite rightly, an arm's-length principle as well?

Well, the first thing I did, actually, the first day I got this job, I went over the road and went to see the arts council and said, 'I'm coming to see you just to make it clear that I won't be coming to see you officially as a Minister telling you to do anything, because I expect you to behave in the way that arts organisations need to behave in relation to the independence from Government.' And I had the same conversations with other bodies. But that doesn't mean that I don't take a particular interest in certain venues, because they are places where I see this huge inclusivity of activity. I'll pick one, which I have great personal affection for and great interest in, and that's the Riverfront in Newport, which has become a major centre for contemporary ballet among young people, and it's brilliant to see. And that is the artistic mission of Ballet Cymru and the Riverfront, and that has developed substantially in recent years. So, it's a matter of outreach. It's also a matter of making it clear that venues are accessible to people and that these public buildings, which are well funded by local authorities—part of our democratic provision—are open to everyone.

So, my final question would be—and thank you for those answers—recognising that public support for arts, culture, including culture in its wider regard, and I would include with this the boxing clubs and everybody else—there are different types of culture out there—but that is supported in a number of different ways that are not traditional arts funding routes. You referred to the impacts of constraints on funding—that is my euphemism for where we are with continuing budget cuts and austerity. But that has clearly had an impact generally on the infrastructure around community centres, libraries, all those non-traditional venues that actually do do a lot of this grass-roots, community cultural provision that must be having an impact. What's your assessment? What assessment does the Government do of the impact on grass-roots participation and attendance at events that are way beyond the arts council, that are on that fabric of communities?

I'm going to bring in Lesley-Anne and Jason on this as well, but one of my favourite—it's not a pastime, it's a full day's work—is visiting libraries that are now full cultural hubs. The Glan-yr-afon or Riverside in Haverfordwest is my latest favourite. But I've been to, 10, at least, of these projects where a library has been transformed, where there is a small art gallery with full humidity control and security, so that they can receive parts of the national collection that are travelling. It will always be colourful, there'll be music, there'll be young people there. There will also be social discussions going on there. So, the library—and I discussed this in the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals library conference here in Cardiff last week—the library has become the cultural hub. It's the equivalent of the old chapel vestry as I remember it. It is where it's happening, where people meet in all sorts of contexts and where there's a generational spread as well. And we encourage that very much, and we have funded over £1 million-worth.

This year. 

This year. Yes. Libraries. 

Jason.

If I could just pick up on three points that were raised in all the questions there, because I think they're all linked. One I think is a Wales-wide point, one's an organisational point, and then at the end you mentioned a sort of venue-specific point. I'd just like to say, on the Wales broad point, we do have the well-being indicators for Wales—the 46 indicators. So, that at a macro level allows us to track the overall well-being of the nation. Many of the different things we do, of course, the Minister's portfolio ultimately feeds into those 46 indicators. So, we do have that broader way of tracking it.

On an organisational sort of basis, we do, obviously, issue remit letters to each of our arm’s-length bodies. We've moved to a term-of-government remit letter for each of those because we recognised there was an administrative burden in doing it each year. So, within those remit letters, we do set the broad goals that we want them to help us achieve. Within that is the well-being of future generations, and all the things you touched on around social inclusion and addressing poverty all go into those remit letters. So, in terms of accessing the funding, they have to address those things that are in there.

Then also, on the individual venue points, we do have funds that can help with that. The Minister mentioned it and Lesley-Anne mentioned it—we have a fund called the capital transformation fund, which we use annually to put into libraries. One of the big objectives of that is to broaden the scope. So, they're not just a library, they're a community hub. So, we have different ways of doing all of these different things at the different tiers, if that makes sense. 

I just agree with the Minister there. We have had some real successes with Fusion. I think that we’ve evidenced that in our response to the committee. I think we could go further. With more funding, we could go further.  But I think where we’ve got to with the limited funding that we’ve had, specifically with Fusion, I think we’ve done some incredible things. I think the point you make about going in to individual communities, I would just point you to some other—. I think you’ve had this in written responses from other organisations, but there are some like the Arts Council of Wales, where, if you look at their corporate plan, its entire raison d'être is about delivering for everybody across Wales. So, I would say that the organisations that we fund absolutely get this, and get the need to do more on this. I think the point had been raised earlier on, times are hard, and in terms of the continued pressure on funding for them, they are doing the best job that they possibly can with the limited funding that they're able to get, I would say. 

You don't have to touch the mic; that's fine. 

Oh, thank you. Just to mention a couple of particularly good areas of learning around St Fagans, for example, and the work they did on the redevelopment and the way they worked with communities there—organisations like Cardiff Story that work very, very closely with their communities. So, it is happening and we have learned a huge amount over the last few years that we do want to take forward and build on. 

Okay. Thank you. And my last question would be about the incidental—. What effect do you think that things like cuts to public transport—? Following on from Huw Irranca-Davies's point earlier about library closures, looking at public transport infrastructure, and how difficult it makes accessing cultural events for different communities, what effect do you think that has on, not just participation in the arts, but also on social cohesion, although I know that's a big question?

Well, I'm not the Minister for transport, but I'm a regular bus user and I carry my bus pass everywhere. 

Hear, hear.

Thank you. [Laughter.]

I would see whether there are ways of developing our bus pass policy for use in age groups, and for specific events. I know it's difficult to target. You could say somebody's going to a football match but not going to an eisteddfod, who's going to get the free ride? But there are ways of making provision to make sure that there are services available for people to go to major events, and I think we don't do enough of that in collaboration with the local authorities and the transport companies, and indeed, Trafnidiaeth Cymru, our wonderful rail service, which will be even more wonderful when we get new rolling stock. 

Jason Thomas, did you want to come in?

Just a brief point on that, thank you, Chair. So, we know from our own research that 4 per cent of the general population will cite access to transport as one of the reasons why they can't get to a cultural event across Wales. And we know that for those people who are in deprived areas, that 4 per cent rises to 7 per cent. So, we do recognise that it's an issue. The only thing that I would say to that is: some of these things are not always in our own control. With the deregulation of the bus sector comes the less leverage that we have to control these things. But as the Minister says, we're always looking at ways in which we can improve that access, and Fusion has been a great way of actually bringing together all those different partners around the table. So, you will have people from transport that are there as well, just in the same conversation, and, hopefully, innovative ways come to address those things. I've seen individual examples of that in the past, but it's probably fair to say it could be more structured.

Mick Antoniw. 

Just on that, I always wonder where these percentages and statistics actually come from because those of us here, we notice with some of our communities, in actual fact, there is very significant disengagement from activities that do require travel for a variety of reasons, either because the system is inadequate, but basically because it is a massive obstacle. So, what tends to happen is people will focus on the cultural activities in their immediate communities, it might be in the pub, it might be in the community hall or whatever, but it is a significant factor. And I accept exactly what you're saying in terms of, 'Who's responsibility?', and, 'Where?', and the difficulties with it, but, certainly, the evidence that we've had has been that this is, actually, a really significant factor for a lot of people—and particularly young people—in doing it, and it seems that this is one of the major factors that explains that gap in the availability. I just wonder whether there's more that should be being done by Government in terms of the joined-up thinking in terms of transport and that culture side. I don't know what the answer is, but—.

Well, I definitely think there is joined-up thinking on all of this. I think many of these problems stem from the enormous resource pressures that it might take to facilitate some of the outcomes, if that makes sense. So, if you just look at the simple point of, 'We want to take x amount of people from X community to X cultural venue', exactly to your point, that venue could be many miles away. So, if you take a community that both of us know well like Beddau, if you wanted to take a community from Beddau to the Wales Millennium Centre, that's going to come with a resource cost, and then if you, kind of, amplify that across Wales, then you're talking really significant numbers there and it all comes down to priorities. 

I think, for me, one of the best solutions to this is actually having a much better spread of cultural events and activities across the whole of Wales, so people do have things closer to home as well. I saw this in my own community in Tylorstown when I was growing up. When you have things like the Pop Factory coming to the Rhondda, that generates a whole lot of activity that just wasn't there before. So, I think there's two different ways of looking at it, and we recognise that, yes, there is much more that needs to be done if we're actually going to address these things, but I think a lot of them do come with a cost.

Has the Government ever explored the idea that tickets for events, most of which are available online now, could also include an entitlement to travel to the event?

I think we haven't. I think it's a good point. That would take significant work with the operators and it would be very dependent on the nature of the event itself. I think if you're working with commercial operators, then it's a totally different question to if you're working to the other end of the spectrum with Cadw internally, where we've got a lot more leverage and flexibility of what we do there. But—

All right, I'll leave it there. Okay, thank you.

Sorry, just two seconds, on that: what about the tourism tax? Many countries and cities use that as a way to get people who wouldn't otherwise access the arts to be able to do that. Is that something that you would look at as to how you could use that potential initiative?

I'm sorry, I made it quite clear when I got the job that I don't favour a tourism tax.

Okay. Well, there we go then. Mick, I'm coming back to you. Question 10.

Yes. It's really about the ambition and the focus on training places, really, because one of the objectives, clearly, is to develop aspiration, clearly to develop ambition, clearly to develop employment out of that. I just wonder whether there's too much focus, actually, on statistics within the availability of funds rather than a much more flexible and broader approach.

Well, this is very much part of the Fusion programme, especially with young people. I've met, I think, most of the 32 apprentices that we have. It looks as if a majority of them would like to continue in employment in the heritage sector, if they can obtain it. I think one of those discussions was in Caerphilly castle, and this young man happened to be from Caernarfon, where I used to live, and he said that, of course, he had never been in the castle in Caernarfon when he was growing up there, but now realised how valuable the castle was and how he would like, maybe, to work for Cadw, as he put it. So, that was it and the job had been done. 

Well, can you—? Oh, sorry.

Just to say, the Cultural Ambition programme's a particularly good example, but we have recognised, I think, as we've been going through, that we need to have a broader view. And one of the areas that we have started to look at in terms of our review of what's been happening is around health and well-being, and I think there's an awful lot we could be doing around that. So, that is something that we're looking at. 

Can I just take that a little bit—? Because one of the things that came up in some of the evidence we've had is, of course, we use very glibly the terms ambition and aspirations, and I apologise for probably doing exactly the same. But one of the things that emerged is that, of course, within many of these cultural activities, there's a whole series of jobs and skills, an enormous variety of them that many people are just not aware of and it doesn't seem as though we've actually—there may be issues in terms of how we're actually communicating. And the things in film potentially, and whether it be from the electrician to the lighting, to the carpenter, to the painter, to the delivery person, to the transport elements, to the co-ordination, to the administration—all these things that occur. And, again, within Cadw as well, the particular skills that exist in respect of some of the restoration works, the particular specialisms that are there. We promote culture perhaps in terms of the event, but that we perhaps don't do enough in terms of saying what the components are that actually people might really be interested in understanding. It's not necessarily the end product, it's actually the construction of the end product. 

The way this is done now within the film sector is particularly effective, because what happens now is that most productions—incoming productions or longer productions, which we fund, some of them—obviously, where there are series, they will employ co-ordinators who have a full knowledge of the local economy and the local workforce. And I saw this at my visit to Dream Horse up in Blaenavon the other day, and I've seen it also in the discussions we've had with Universal about the work that they're doing on the various stages in Pencoed. What they were impressed with was the facility that is now available through employing—they're not really agents, but effectively they are agents, because they know the workforce and they know the need in the industry, and they can match those things up. What we need to do is make sure that we have, as we do increasingly now, have such a good pipeline of productions that it's possible for people to have the opportunity of more continuous employment.

So, we are building up now, not directly but through our funding, we are building up a whole cadre, really, of people who are able to take up a broad range of activities. And you're absolutely right, when we look at investing, even in theatre spaces—as we will be doing hopefully very soon if we can get appropriate funding across Government in a project like Theatr Clwyd—we are well aware that the impact of being able to refurbish and retain and develop that building as a centre of employment is just as important as any manufacturing or service outlet in that part of the world, because of the nature and variety of employment that it produces.

Do you see a specific role in terms of the Fusion co-ordinators within this? Is that how you see their role developing? 

Well, the Fusion co-ordinators have indicated what can be done and I think what I was alluding to earlier—it would be good if we could have more co-ordinators who could do this all more generally. Because we have to always be aware of the nature of the economy and the changes to the economy and the results of digital development, and that we're up to speed with the whole of that, really. 

Huw Irranca-Davies.

I've just got a small supplementary to Mick’s questions, Minister, which is, you mentioned the Pencoed studios. Now, I’m familiar with the long history of this and when they’ve had productions in there it’s always been stressed to me—and this would be the same of other similar developments throughout Wales—how much they do rely on local workforce, whether it’s carpenters, builders, construction, digital, et cetera. But, what analysis do we do to ensure—because this goes to the heart of tackling poverty—that a company that comes in there that may often have some public money to assist it—great, which I support—are actually maximising the local employment, the local links with colleges and apprenticeships and supply chains? Do we know? Do we have the hard data, as opposed to the aspirations?

I think—

Yes, we do.

Thanks. I think you’ve touched on, obviously, a really fundamental issue there. I don’t want to pre-empt the Minister’s response to your report last week on film and tv production, but I think that really addresses—

A very good report. Thank you, by the way.

It really goes into some of these—

Thank you very much, but I wasn’t part of it.

I think, if I could just—. From like an initial thought over here, I guess—I guess, from a Welsh Government perspective, obviously, when we fund productions or when we fund across the whole sector, when we give public money for something to come to Wales or to develop in Wales, we, obviously, put conditions on all of that that we want to see addressed. I think, at the broadest level, particularly to use the example of the film and tv example, we’ll ask for spend in Wales, as a broad criterion there. My own view on that, and we’re really looking at this as we develop Creative Wales and everything going forward, is is that detailed enough? Is that granular enough? Because there are probably ways in which companies could probably manoeuvre around that. My view—and I think your report last week touched on a lot of this—is there are probably much more sophisticated and detailed ways in which we can lock that in. I was meeting with representatives from the different trade unions as apart of our discussions on Creative Wales very recently, and they just spoke on behalf of their members, which was—. It's a deep frustration sometimes, when there is money that goes into productions coming into Wales, but they see the auditions being held in London, and they see crews coming into Wales and not realising the supply chains do exist here. So, I think you do touch on a point that is absolutely real, but I see it more as an opportunity to do more in the future, and we’re hoping to address that through Creative Wales. But it’s the same issues that face the wider culture sector, the heritage sector, about making sure that everybody in Wales sees the opportunities that are there, and then them trying to get them on their own merits. Not to say you have to have them because you’re here, but that they have access to the opportunities.

I can speak of my recent discussions with Universal. It was the first time that those senior executives that I met had looked at working in Wales, and they were very impressed by the quality of the existing stages and they were talking about building some more. And they also gave me an absolute commitment in the meeting that they would employ locally whenever they could. And I thought, 'Well, that's exactly—'. If Universal do that—and NBC Universal are the biggest of the bunch—we can really set our sights high.

Okay, we look forward to your response to our film and television report. David Melding.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I don’t anticipate what the committee’s report will say, but I think it’s fair to emphasize that there’s been a strong body of evidence that says to us that Fusion is a really strong concept. Now, at the heart of it in its delivery is the role of the co-ordinators. Is that your view, and would you like to see at least—I know funding is a challenge for you—that that part of the programme—? We’re spending roughly under 1 per cent of total cultural spend on the Fusion co-ordinators, and is there just a little bit of room there to strengthen the network, do you think, should you share our view about the success of the Fusion co-ordinators?

I certainly share your view, and I think we have to make some hard decisions in these fields, because where we have spotted a way of operating that then has greater effect, then we may well have to switch some funding into those positive aspects that we know will bring about change, at the expense of some other areas of funding where, perhaps, more traditional support that we give may not be achieving similar results. I know that those are difficult questions, but we have to make it clear that, when we have discovered something, or we think we’ve discovered something, that does work with the grain of the possibilities of the market, as it were, then we need to spend on and develop it. So, I hope that if your committee—as you say, you can’t anticipate what the report will say—but if you too concur with us on the basis of evidence that this is a goer, then it’s a recommendation that we would be very willing to respond to. Jason.

Just to follow on from the Minister, there, I think—. Because you mentioned 1 per cent of the culture budget—obviously we’re here predominantly talking about Fusion today, but, if you looked across the Minister’s wider portfolio, we could probably cite maybe 100 different programmes that are delivering enormous value to Welsh public life and the future prosperity of Wales, I think. It’s just important to note, really, that, if we do reprioritise from within the Minister’s portfolio, something else of equal notable value loses out. I think there’s a broader question on where do we prioritise from in the whole grand scheme of things. So, I just thought I’d just get that noted.

And 1 per cent is not trivial. I mean, you can do a lot with small programmes. But I think the idea, really, is that if the Fusion co-ordinators have been so central—. And we do also share the view that some of our witnesses have expressed, that as austerity has clearly had an impact in other sources of public funding—Communities First, as we mentioned specifically—the sort of activities some of those programmes used to involve is quite similar to Fusion. So, the Fusion co-ordinators have been able to pick up some of the slack of what would have been delivered in other public programmes. Also, in fairness, I think, there’s evidence they’ve gone beyond that. So, again, that would seem to emphasise the need to support this network in the future and perhaps enhance it.

I referred to the local authorities, but it's—. Perhaps you’d like to say something further, Lesley-Anne, on this, but in each area there is also partnership with other bodies, including the arts council, the museums and the national library, as well as community programmes. So, it’s a broad programme, which has, I think, strong national influence.

I think the role of the co-ordinators is absolutely key, and what they’re doing on the ground is actually developing partnerships and developing sustainable partnerships, and they’re actually embedding a way of working that we’re seeing as being really, really effective. So, for us, that does remain an absolutely key role.

And then, you know, perhaps taking this on in terms of, you know, they’re in the communities and they’re embedded, as you say, we’ve also heard evidence that there are a range of organisations that have a good track record out there, and they are embedded in their communities and regarded as anchor cultural organisations, and that—. One of the things some of the stakeholders were hoping to see, I think, in Fusion, is a rebalancing, to some extent, in terms of the funding models that are used, where we are investing a little more in the diffuse model, and a little less, I suppose, if there are winners and losers, in the large central organisations. Do you see this as important? Because the logic of Fusion does seem to take us in that sort of direction to some extent.

I don’t think it’s either/or. I think what I would say is that the value of the expertise that we have in our national institutions, especially in the seven—or is it eight, if we count Treforest—centres of the museums and galleries, and, of course, similarly with the national library as a national resource—. One of the things I’m looking to both institutions is to do even more in partnership with local museums and indeed with the library service generally, so that people can benefit, through the partnership, from the experience that these organisations have.

Do you want to say something?

I'd absolutely agree with that, Minister. I think the national institutions are a huge support network for the co-ordinators on the ground and are actively involved. So, they are actually doing a huge amount, and the strength they have is that they have that overarching view of the nation, if you like, so I think both roles are really, really important.

Can I just follow up on that? It’s kind of repeating the point, but I do really want to stress it, I think, which is that there seems to be almost an underlying—almost a suggestion that maybe you could move some money from the national into the more dispersed model, and I absolutely get the question. I think, coming to both points of the Minister and Lesley-Anne, it’s just really important to recognise that I’m sure, if each of the chief executives of those nationals were sat here, they would say, ‘We are maxed out,’ you know. The large majority of their revenue funding from Welsh Government is going on pay bill for staff and it's absolutely maxed out with the need to increase employment standards generally. They are genuinely maxed out, and they are really squeezing every single oomph out of every last pound from us. So, I think—. I just really want to note that; I genuinely believe they’re doing everything that they can. It comes down to a question of whether the overall pie is big enough to go and support all of these different things.

I accept that we are in a challenging financial climate, but I think, where there are healthy embedded anchor organisations, you’ve got a partner to take a party to a production or a rehearsal or whatever. They might have a network that will run the buses to a major performance in Cardiff or Swansea or whatever—you know, you’ve got a resource then in the communities, haven’t you? An element of top-slicing, as you’ve done, to fund the Fusion co-ordinators might be something to be considered or to get it through the partnership working of our large national and regional organisations—it would be interesting, I think, to see in the evaluation process how this balance is struck.

The role of the Fusion co-ordinators, I think, if we do accept that it’s central and has really been successful, are we going to see a more stable funding model for them, over a three-year period for instance? How important do you think that is in terms of developing networks and leaving local communities with the reassurance that they’re not going to get one year’s wonderful programme and then it all disappears?

I think, again, you touch on issues that go much broader as well in terms of giving certainty for organisations further out. I think there is—. From the First Minister down, it’s totally recognised that we want to give further stability to all the organisations that we fund. I guess the reality is that we don’t know where we’re going to be next year at the moment in terms of some of our revenue budgets. We are entering the budget cycle in the coming weeks. So, I think there’s undoubtedly a commitment to try and do that, but where we stand at the moment we’re not able to do that at the moment. We’ve got more certainty over capital funding, but in terms of revenue funding we’ve had to do our best to come up with a model that will give that certainty, but where we stand at the moment we’re just not able to do that, although I think everybody recognises that it would be beneficial to do so.

And my final question is: have we given any thought to sources of additional funding that may be available in terms of our working more effectively with local authorities or other organisations or, indeed, the private sector? I mean, we’ve obviously had a commitment to draw in more private sector support. I don’t see why Fusion shouldn’t be part of this. It’s often more attractive, I suppose, for certain commercial organisations to fund part of an opera in Cardiff, but why should that necessarily limit our ambition? There’s commercial activity all over Wales, and people may be seeking to invest, and can we make the arts part of that?

Well, we are very keen on this, and we have achieved, hopefully, a longer lasting relationship with arts and business, where I think we’ve been able to establish something that I was keen to do when I was more directly involved than obviously I can be as a Minister, which is to reward them when they’re able to draw down private sector funding so that their performance in drawing down private sector funding is reflected in our support for them to maintain that kind of work. So, I think an incentive model for public organisations and for part-public organisations and partnerships that are able to access commercial funding is something that I would dearly like to pursue much further. But, of course, there are implications here for the relationship between public and private funding more generally. I don’t know if you want to say anything else on that, Jason.

It just ties in with that. In the written evidence that we’ve provided, there’s an annexe in there that is Fusion delivering 2018-19. So, there’s a short section in there that recognises that, as part of our efforts, we do provide support for organisations to access external funding. I think I agree with the logic in the question, which is that there’s a lot more that we can do on this. I’ve found this in the work on Historic Wales with the national museum, the national library and the royal commission, and I think everybody recognises that we need to do more to leverage that external support. But it’s a really competitive market, particularly if you’re looking at commercial and donor funding. Some organisations are doing really well on that, but there is obviously a lot more that can be done, although it is highly competitive out there and everybody’s chasing the same sort of beneficial pound, if that makes sense.

Thank you.

Diolch. Vikki Howells.

Thank you, Chair. Picking up on your point there, Jason Thomas, about how competitive this area is and everyone chasing the same sort of pound, clearly evaluation programmes, Minister, are key to ensuring the funding of programmes moving forward. We’ve been looking at the evaluation of the Fusion project and we’ve taken some evidence from stakeholders, from witnesses who are concerned that the evaluation process is too focused on employment-based outcomes when there are so many other benefits to people from participating in the programme. What would your views be on that?

We were very keen to establish an economic case as well as the other—. I mean, we are aware, of course, that culture is not merely an economic activity, but as my great mentor Raymond Williams would say—I’m sure he said it—'It’s got to have an economic base or it hasn’t got anything; it can’t survive and it can’t develop’. So, that’s what we were trying to do and we are well aware that other outcomes are part of that, but I believe that our evaluation is both qualitative and quantitative now—more so.

That’s what we’re heading towards. I mean, I think the qualitative evaluation is always the difficult bit to really pin down. So, what we’re actually looking at at the moment are different evaluation models, and one we’ve looked at, for example, is the University College London model, which is more around—it’s a model for museums, but would transfer quite well across the cultural sector, I think. That looks at health and well-being. I think three different museums in Wales have used it, and they’ve found that quite a useful model. So, that’s something that we’re looking at at the moment. So, we are aware of that as an issue and we’re seeking to address it.

That’s very encouraging, thank you. Minister, how are the other recommendations in the Andrews report being taken forward?

I think we’ve taken forward 16 of the recommendations and we regard three or four of them as superseded because there’s been a change in the way programmes operate. I think that’s a fair summary. So, we do regard ourselves as having implemented the overwhelming number of recommendations. We’ve got a more detailed response there.

We have the cultural inclusion board, which meets—and we worked through the Andrews recommendations, so we have a sort of overarching view of where we are on each of them. So, those that actually either haven’t been completed or have been superseded we are still working on. So, we’re constantly reviewing that at each of the cultural inclusion board meetings.

Thank you. One final question from me. With projects like this, often a top-down approach can miss some of the most crucial benefits. And participants themselves, from that sort of bottom-up approach, can have some really good ideas about how programmes can be developed. So, Deputy Minister, would you be open to looking at the views of participants in the Fusion project to see how the project could be honed and tweaked and maybe even redesigned in future?

We are certainly doing that. I think that’s the meaning of what I said rather flippantly earlier about having a qualitative approach as well as quantitative. That is talking to people, and there’s no substitute for that. I spend most of my time outside the office, actually, listening to people or having a discussion about how they respond to what we’re doing, and certainly the Fusion programme has generated a lot of enthusiasm and we’re determined to continue with that.

We've been reflecting as well, and with your inquiry into this live now, we think it would probably be more timely if we waited to hear your inquiry before publishing the whole thing. Lesley-Anne can touch on this, because we've been working with our internal knowledge and analytical services on some of the quantitative evaluation that's necessary and timely with all of this, but we've just been reflecting that it would make for, hopefully, a better programme going forward if we wait to hear from your inquiry, because of the very detailed and robust way you've been doing that.

Basically—and this applies to David's point as well—it's about persuading our colleagues across Government that this is value for money and they should invest more in it. So, we want the maximum possible evidence. 

Okay. I just wanted to understand—if we were going to say something, and if it was going to come up in June then we didn't want to cross over. But, okay. Fine.

Minister, I'd just like to take your focus now to the issue of community radio, which has exercised us. We've spent quite a bit of time and had some very interesting evidence on it—the role it plays, the functions it plays, its importance. And I have a fantastic one in my constituency, GTFM; so that's that advert out of the way. The community radio fund was something we considered and there was quite a strong feeling that that had served a very useful function in the past, but bearing in mind the challenges and the growing technological requirements with community radio, this was something that should be re-looked at. I think that was one of our recommendations, and I was just wondering what your thoughts are on whether there's any thinking going on about whether this fund could be reopened.

I don't currently favour reopening the fund. I don't believe our limited funding in the area—well, we have no funding, really; we have an oversight of broadcasting policy—I think this is more effectively delivered through the community radio fund that is operated by Ofcom, because they are a direct provider and supporter of media services. Although I appreciate that the community radio fund was something that did have positive benefits, we have decided that it would be more rational in terms of our arrangements to do it that way.

Can I then develop that into one other area in terms of the role of community radio and its relationship with Government? Of course, Government procures quite a lot of—normally through agencies, particular agencies—advertising through radio and media about Government policies. There's public health awareness—we've had it on smoking, we've had it on transplantation. But there doesn't seem to be any consistent policy in terms of ensuring that community radio is used as actually a source for engaging with the public. That is, it is frequently not engaged at all in terms of advertising and Welsh Government campaigns. I was wondering if you think there might be a role there, because such advertising, to the extent that it's allowed, is beneficial, but it doesn't seem to happen in any consistent way, and yet there seems to be a bit of a contradiction there. Is this something that could be looked at, or that you've been considering?

I don't think it's for me, actually, because I have no access to the Government's communications budget, but I know a Minister who does, so I will pass this on to him. It will be my colleague the Deputy Minister Lee Waters.

Diolch. If limited funds is one of the issues why this fund can’t be reopened at the moment, would the department have any plans at the moment to consider requesting the devolution of further powers in this area?

No.

I thought that might be your answer, but I thought I’d ask anyway.

Well—

And looking at—. Sorry, did you want to—?

No, I just wanted to make it clear the Government has no policy, and I certainly have no policy, to devolve bits of the digital world. It has to come over as a whole in a changing relationship between the UK and Welsh Government. But that’s beyond my pay grade at the moment. Well, I won’t say, ‘at the moment’; it’s beyond my pay grade full stop. [Laughter.]

Well, you heard it here first. [Laughter.] Wonderful.

Local radio is such an important part of, again, social cohesion, and it gives a voice to communities; do you think that there is anything further that the department could be doing to shore it up, in the absence of, at the moment, any further devolution or reopening the fund?

Well, I made it clear that I took the view, when I got this portfolio, that the less we did as a direct sponsor of broadcasting activities and the more that we did in order to stimulate the proper broadcasting authorities to be more effective, then that would be a better use of our funding. Unfortunately, it took longer for us to get our representation on Ofcom organised and it’s not our fault.

I just think it’s important to add that, obviously, the current broadcasting structures are continuously evolving. As a Government, we’ve just got to continue to monitor the developments and make sure that we contribute to that debate to protect the interests of the people of Wales. So we’re always going to be around the table trying to do that.

Thank you. Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies.

Minister, as you travel about to different engagements across Wales, when you’re in the back of the car and you’re heading off long-distance, as long as you’ve got a signal, do you tend to switch the radio on or do you tend to travel in silence and do your papers?

I haven’t considered putting the radio on. I wouldn’t want to upset my very effective and very personable drivers. Sometimes I do detect the sound of local radio on at a low level to know the traffic arrangements, and I think that’s—. But, when I’m driving myself, I am always listening to—

And before you came into committee this morning, and when you’re by yourself putting the radio on, what do you listen to? What channels?

When I’m in the shower, I always listen to Radio 3, if you want to know these details. [Laughter.]

Interesting. It’s Schubert again. In the mornings—

Radio 5 Live all night and through into Radio Wales at 06:00 now—but we won’t go into any details. There we are, we’ll leave it there. Radio Wales at 06:00, yes.

So you would switch on Radio Wales at 06:00.

Yes, but I have to point out that I live in my house with another person, who is my wife, and there’s competition between the noisy music on Radio Cymru 1 and 2 and what I’m trying to listen to on Radio Wales. So, that’s how we live.

So, what is your take at the moment on Radio Wales in the morning? You’re switching on at 06:00; what’s your take on the format now?

I’m not going to express a view.

No view? 

No.

No view.

Well, I’ve known the new presenter for many years.

Oh, absolutely. The presenter is tremendous.

What I’m looking for always is a good mix of sport and news, and some features, but sport is news, obviously, for me.

Is it of any interest—if you don’t want to express a view on the—. It’s not on the presenter, it’s on the format—but will Welsh Government be interested, going forward, in what the viewing figures are and what the change in audience is for that, not simply with viewing figures, but what they’re switching on for?

Well, I think it’s more of an issue trying to increase the general listening to Welsh-based media, I would have thought, not just BBC but also commercial radio, and the amount of coverage and the amount of Welsh material that is available on the media. That would be a general principle, but I’m not going to become a news editor or a programme editor manqué.

Okay. But you do and you have expressed an interest going forward on the issue of the coverage of 100 per cent speech content between 7.30 a.m. and 8.30 a.m. on weekdays, and it’s because of this issue that you’ve made very clear in a letter to the committee on having an appropriate level of localness provision, on having that coverage of current affairs and so on. You made clear in that letter—because of your concerns about the weakness of the print media in Wales, a lack of coverage of Welsh affairs in UK newspapers. So, it’s exceptionally critical that we have that good quality early morning, late at night and so on. So, you have expressed a view on that particular one-hour time slot, but not on half an hour before, half an hour later.

No, I’ve expressed a view because it has been a matter of debate that has become public. I prefer to conduct my discussions with the management of the BBC directly, which is what I always do when I have the opportunity, and it’s not to do with any attempt to editorialise. It’s because I have an oversight of broadcasting, and I interpret the oversight of broadcasting as the general cultural principles that I see operating in the way the broadcast media work. So, I wouldn’t want to take it further than what I’ve said in that letter to you.

Okay. And my final point—and I don’t want to push you too hard on this, because you’re making clear that you don’t want to be an editor-in-chief of what’s going on in BBC Wales and elsewhere, and I should make it clear as well that I have no criticism of the presenters and so on and so forth, but there are issues that have been vocalised quite prominently around the content and the format. Would it be of concern to you as Minister if there was a degradation in any way of the accessibility to current affairs of people in Wales who are listening to what is a very limited choice, I have to say, of coverage of current affairs, because of the impacts on—we sit here as politicians as well—the work of the Senedd, as well as wider civic society and industry and so on in Wales?

Let me put it another way. My radio station of choice, apart from music, is Radio 5 Live. I have been a supporter of Radio 5 Live ever since I happened to be a member of the General Advisory Council of the BBC, a body that was subsequently abolished, and because I favoured the notion of an accessible news bulletin that also covered sport, because I think that that combination of news and sport is a very good example of what current affairs really should be about. And therefore, I’m not—. I don’t follow the Radio 4 model, and I don’t follow the Radio Cymru model. I think the Radio 5 Live model, for me, is the preferred type of listening. But that’s a personal choice that I make. Now, I would like far more Welsh materials on Radio 5 is what I’m trying to say, and on Radio 2, because you will find that far more Welsh listeners listen to those stations than listen to the radio—

I have no more questions, Chair, but I just want to say that for somebody who doesn’t want to be editor-in-chief, you’ve just expressed very eloquently an editorial view of what something should look like.

Well, I said that was a personal option, but I’m not advocating it. I'm not advocating it—you pressed me. [Laughter.]     

David Melding.

Yes, and it was with some trepidation, I think—[Laughter.]—and I'll press you a little further. I say ‘trepidation’ because if you look at the UK Government at the moment, there’s not necessarily absolute consistency in the line coming from various Ministers on the most essential aspects of policies in and around Brexit. But in terms of, and you alluded to this—Lee Waters was reported as having used a meeting with the regulator Ofcom to say he objected to the model that Good Morning Wales, the replacing of Good Morning Wales with a new model. Was that a Governmental view? Was that his view? And how does it sit with your responsibilities for oversight, or was this just part of a general debate and we shouldn’t read too much into it in terms of the fact that you seemed to have different views there?

Well, certainly, we have had a discussion about this, and I think it was an expression of views. I’ve expressed my views to this committee, and, really, I have nothing further to add. I don’t think that—. I wouldn’t see myself, when I talk about my responsibilities for the oversight of broadcasting, as presenting Government policy because broadcasting is not devolved. Policy, I think, and speaking as a Minister for policy, can only be confined to devolved issues, which are within the competence of the National Assembly, and therefore within the responsibility of Welsh Ministers. That’s rather a pompous constitutional point.

No, I think it’s very clear. So, you were a bit more relaxed, then, that we were having this discussion because it seems to me your view is that you think it’s inappropriate, usually anyway, to publicly comment on editorial judgments, and presumably you want to give the new format some time to see if it works, and then you will make your views, such as they are, known more discreetly, then, as you said, when you speak to BBC management. Is that a fair summary?

I don’t think I’ll be taking any initiatives on this matter. These matters are for the editorial judgment of the BBC. Now, if I was asked privately by people what my views are on certain things, I might express them, but probably not.

And you already have, in that you want more of a balance between sport and current affairs, and—. I enjoy Radio 5 as well, and they do have very serious political coverage, I think, and it is through a more popular medium, many people could argue. Okay. I think that’s as much as I want to ask.

Diolch, Gweinidog. So, I think this is very simple really, because I think the phrase ‘intervention’ is quite misleading and probably unhelpful because the framework document mandates the library—they have to consult us on certain things, and, within that, the appointment of chief executive is a hard-wired mandated thing that they have to consult us on. As part of that consultation, they send us the job description and tell us that that’s what they’re going to be advertising. So, we expressed a view on the job description; the library didn’t agree with our view and they pressed ahead, because they were perfectly entitled to do so. All they had to do was to consult with us. We expressed our view, they didn’t believe that was right for the library and then they pressed ahead. There’s never been a complaint from the actual national library about all of that and the relationship is extremely strong. The outcome of the appointments process, I think has been exceptional. There’s been no issue whatsoever between us and the library on the back of this. I just wanted to put that on the record.

Okay, fine. Okay. I think we’ve exhausted that argument now.

Well, you may have; I haven’t.

You haven’t? Oh, I thought you said that that was the end of it.

It’s the end of the present chapter—

Oh, okay.

—but my attitude towards the use of Welsh and English in public life in Wales is something that should be respected and understood, given my experience in this field, and should not be used for political purposes in the Assembly Chamber or in this committee. End of story.