National Assembly for Wales

Now we can clap, David. [Applause.] 

Kathryn Williams.

Rubicon's work is entirely focused on what might be called, in marketing terms, the C2DE people. So, that is the bedrock of our work. A typical example is the video of Josh that we just saw. I think of poverty not just in terms of financial poverty, but it's that poverty of access—so we deliberately take our work to people—but also poverty of opportunity and aspiration. I think that's really where, we, as an arts community have the opportunity to make a really, really big inroad into poverty, by tackling poverty of aspiration. A number of our projects really are working around this theme. I would highlight to you one in particular that we have run for a number of years, in partnership with our colleagues Ballet Cymru, called DUETS. This project is deliberately aimed at schools in really, really disadvantaged areas. We work with about 1,000 children a week—typically five schools in the Cardiff area, five schools in the Newport area—and from this 1,000 people that we work with, we will then select about 30 and they have a two-year scholarship with Ballet Cymru and Rubicon. That project is evolving. We were doing quite well, we thought, in terms of reaching really disadvantaged people, but we were missing a section, so we have evolved that project now and we are working in Moorland Primary School, specifically so that we could really tackle the families that wouldn't engage. Because we learnt in that project you can't just engage the young people, you have to engage the wider family. We had some really interesting opinions and preconceptions that we bumped into, particular around ballet, and we have been able to address that within the family context as well. So, very much of our work is about working with people who are living in poverty, but absolutely none of them self-identify that way, and I think that's quite an important thing to be aware of.

Mick Antoniw.

Thank you for those answers. Kathryn, it seems to be clear that with Rubicon there is a clear strategic objective that part of the plan is reaching out into areas of poverty. But I wonder, with Siân and Catrin, whether what you're suggesting is that the reaching out to more deprived communities is a coincidental consequence of the reach that you actually have, rather than a strategic proactive policy you have or an objective. Is that fair?

It's a natural approach. We're accessible to everybody, and we know through the schools that we do engage with that we have schools from across every region in Wales taking part regardless of the social status of the children attending. As I said right at the beginning—

But, of course, one of the issues that many of us face in communities that have deprived communities is that there are natural barriers to actual participation, to engaging. There's a certain dependency on parental support, family support to actually participate within the first place. What you do seem to be suggesting is that it is essentially the breadth of your region—. I think the work you do is absolutely fantastic, but it's the breadth of the reach that reaches, and that's coincidental rather than part of a more detailed strategic analysis. What we're looking at, of course, is how arts and culture address issues of poverty and social exclusion. I think one of the areas we're interested in is obviously the issue of strategy. Is this an area—? What it sounds like to me is that there isn't actually a specific strategy. Do you think this is something that you should be looking at? Because what I'm wondering is: do you have any evidence at all in terms of what the potential issues may be in terms of certain areas, why there may be people who are not participating that would—from other areas—have participated? I think this is sort of what we're trying to examine.

Kathryn.

Well, I want to say something about barriers. I think, as an organisation, we really understand the barriers that people face, and that's woven into our strategic approach. So, yes, it is about cost, it is about transportation—those sorts of things. So, we strive to make sure that at the point of access it's either very low cost or there is no charge, and we make a conscious decision to go to people rather than expecting them to come to us. I think, though, we need to move beyond this idea of what are the barriers, and we need to understand what the motivations are. In our experience as an organisation—and we've been doing what we do for 44 years now—people are motivated by having an experience that is fun. There is a social element, and by that I mean there are opportunities for them to meet other people and make new friends, but fundamentally they have to trust you as an organisation, and our pattern of working is about committing to communities for a long time. We will typically work with communities for decades. There is a primary school in Adamsdown that we have worked with continuously, consistently, for 38 years and when you have that kind of community capital, that kind of trust, then you have a real platform to motivate people. So, I think we really, really have to move beyond this idea of just the barriers, but understand these motivations. 

If I could follow on a bit, because I understand what you're saying in terms of your overriding objective, but if I can ask perhaps Siân and Catrin—what do you think are the barriers that exist, why a lot of people or why children from more deprived areas would not be participating? To what extent do you try to evaluate that and do you have any specific, proactive policy that would seek to address that? 

To answer that, I need to acknowledge that we're failing and I don't think that we're failing. So, I'm quite clear that we do—as I said, we haven't got this information today because we're very much driven from the current grant that we have from the Government towards how we engage people to make use of the Welsh language. I think we're very dependent on teachers to engage with the pupils to bring them into the Eisteddfod, and through looking at a different model, how we deliver the arts within the community. That will strengthen our appeal, hopefully, to engage with more groups and concentrate on those that aren't engaged at the moment to engage with the Urdd. Because as we say, we have almost 850 schools taking part in the Urdd—from that school experience to the area, to the regional, to the national. There are schools that aren't engaging with us and we need to maybe look at how we can assist and support teachers in engaging, and also by offering arts clubs outside school hours within the communities, accessible through price. We will be engaging with a new customer that hasn't had that unique experience of the Urdd Eisteddfod. 

I'm not trying to suggest you're failing. It's a question of how you measure success—what the criteria are for success and what the challenges are in terms of those parts of the community that might actually be excluded, and how you actually find out whether that is the case or not? So, I suppose what I was really putting is whether you have a specific policy in place or actions in place that seek to identify that input and to identify whether there are those gaps and whether there is a need to actually address that. Because what you seem to be suggesting to me is that you don't really have, but because of your very large embrace of communities, that would be sufficient in covering a wide range of areas of different socioeconomic statuses. 

Okay. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I'm looking at it from the aspect of being part of an audience, as opposed to participating in an event, and being able to attend activities—cultural and art activities—which we know is advantageous to developing social skills and providing a person with ambition and aspiration, or at the very least enjoyment and fulfillment. So, I totally understand where Kathryn is coming from in taking your shows to the community and so on, but, on a larger stage and larger events to reach a wider audience, I'm wondering what you consider the barriers to be when you put on an event in a place and people want to come to attend this event. What do you think the barriers are for people who are socially excluded and, indeed, do live in poverty, because money is an important aspect in this case? 

You're right there, Caroline: it's a complex picture. An important part of our work, apart from taking part, is performance. We have considerable audiences. We perform in places like St David's Hall or Riverfront, but we equally will take our work to Soar Penygraig or the school hall. I think where we are successful—and our audience numbers are rising, which is bucking the trend with regard to dance audiences—is that our audiences trust us. They trust us to provide a product that they are going to find accessible. We don't dumb down, because I don't think there is any conflict between high quality and access, but they do trust us.

Our work is very, very audience focused. So, we did a tour last year, which was specifically aimed at young people in secondary school. People will say, 'Oh, there's no audience for this; there's no audience for young people.' We expected an audience of 600. Our final audience figures were nearer 3,000. There is a huge appetite for that. Our approach to creating that was—I think I'm right in thinking it has a certain amount of integrity in that we used young people to help us commission the choreographers, who were Welsh-based choreographers. They had a real voice in saying which ones they felt they wanted to work with. They were the performers themselves, and I think there is something to be said about young people inspiring other young people, and that gives them an invitation in.

The programming involved three pieces. One was called We Are Next, which was very interesting, because it was a commentary about the NHS and some of their feelings about feeling disempowered from the political system—really uplifting work. Another work, that was inspired by science, was called Axon. But we included in the programme a really vibrant jazz piece based on the movie Moulin Rouge!. So, people will think, 'Oh, well, I've not really gone to dance before, but I think I might have heard of that.' And it creates the invitation in. Because it is expensive, by the time you've caught the bus, you've bought the ticket, you've arranged childcare; it's an investment, and it is a risk. So, you have to cover those angles. And I think, sometimes, in the arts more broadly, we miss the fact that there is an audience involved and what their needs are.

Thank you.

I was going to ask you about concessions for people that, perhaps, can't afford the full price of a ticket. So, you've answered that.

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch on that. Just for my second question now. It's quite understandable to look at a family and think, 'Right, the more disposable income a family has, the more events and so on that they can attend in arts and culture.' So, often, people working in the arts are very poorly paid, and especially when cuts are forthcoming, the first place to cut is often in the arts sector. So, could you explain to me that those people attending events, such as cultural and arts activities and so on—? How would you encourage a person who already may have a low-paid position to be part of something that may offer higher paid employment? What sort of strategy would you have to bring people in and encourage them to achieve their full ambition then, really? Maybe in the arts, but to also increase their level of income.

Okay. Rubicon has, for very, many years, offered a number of volunteering placements, professional placements and apprenticeships, which bring, typically, young people into the art form and train them to work in the sector. We have a track record of doing this for about 25 years, and in 2013 we rolled this methodology out across Wales. So, it's having a direct impact on, not just the delivery of community dance across Wales, but it's also bringing people into the profession and giving them sustainable careers.

You are very right: the arts is typically really low paid, and there is a whole conversation to be had around how we fund arts more sustainably. Because, if people can't earn a proper living in delivering the arts, we lose really skilled people to the sector. So, there are conversations to be had around that.

Typical routes into working at Rubicon—and we have a complete pathway that can take you from your first encounter in a curriculum session in a school right through to working for Rubicon and delivering. So, we have a number of pathways, which are either accredited or unaccredited. And as an organisation, Rubicon has a real focus on sector workforce development, not just regionally, but right across Wales through our Wales-wide training programme, which, since we rolled it out in north Wales, has had a really high impact on Welsh language community dance delivery in the Dawns i Bawb area. So, I think that's north-west. Yes, north-west Wales.

The choice that Josh made was quite impressive, actually, wasn't it, between going into an army career or dance? That was important.

We've got many Joshes. And Josh just was literally walking past the building with a friend one day. That was made a couple of years ago. Not the finished article. But he's one of the most exciting dancers I've seen in such a long time, but never had the aspiration. Oh, he was a naughty boy, but he has now got a full scholarship to London Studio and is—. Watch out.

Thank you.

Delyth Jewell.

If I can ask firstly, please, in really quite distinct ways, both of your organisations seem to—. In terms of the core participants, they will have certain characteristics, whether it's that they will speak Welsh or that they have a particular skill set in dance. I suppose, in terms of appealing to a wider audience, not necessarily for participation, but also just for viewing, and getting people who engage with the art to feel that it's for them even if it isn't a characteristic that they have themselves, can you tell us a little bit about that? And I appreciate that this will be slightly different, but I think, especially because—. I think, Catrin, you'd said 'mae'r ysgolion yn ymgorffori'r eisteddfod'—the schools embody the eisteddfod. And that's really interesting, because, literally, the dancers will embody the art. Yes, if you could, in distinct ways. 

To Kathryn, now, how—? You've already touched a little bit on how—. I found it really interesting that you were saying that we need to look beyond the barriers and look at the motivation for why people would not just want to take part in an activity, but engage with the activity, and the idea of the fun and the joy of it. And I suppose particularly with dance, that's really going to come across, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

The founding idea behind Rubicon is that we think aspirational dance is for everybody. I know that, today, we are focusing on children and young people, but the breadth of our work—. Our youngest are toddlers, yes, but at the other end of the scale, we are working with people in their nineties. So, we genuinely believe that dance is for everybody—even you—and that is our starting point.

Our approach is perhaps a bit different to other arts organisations in that our approach to culture is bottom up. So, we think it is an expression of the people we work with and that is very much embedded in how we work with people. I mean, we work with ordinary people. You might recognise this—it's upside down—but this is Jordan, she is from around here and we were invited to dance at the Senedd on one occasion. An ordinary girl from Cardiff, who has gone on to train with Ballet West. So, you know, those sorts of things shouldn't be a barrier. But then, disadvantage is really diverse as well. At the other end of the scale, we do an awful lot of work with disabilities. This is quite typical of our work, and it's genuinely inclusive. 'Inclusive' is a kind of a buzz word, but it's actually something that we live and breathe. So, going back to those motivations, Delyth, it's about being consistent, being in communities for the long haul and they will trust you.

Our approach to creating work is we co-create it. So, all of the things you'll see—. We have a performance, now, on Monday, which has been co-created with the performers who are just ordinary young people from the region. And what you will see is really, really high quality. So, it's not a case of—. There's no reason why young people couldn't be doing this brilliant sort of work and having really, really, really high artistic standards. This is a piece called 'Dig'; we brought an American choreographer over to work with them. They're 16 and 17 years old. And this is another that you might like, 'Collecting Gravity'. Again, these are 16 and 17-year-olds.

One quick follow-up, please. There was a really, I think, important and challenging point, Kathryn, that you put in the evidence, which has been touched on in a few of our other evidence sessions, about hard-to-reach communities and how, actually, it is not the communities that are hard to reach, but it is that cultural organisations are being hard to reach.

Well, certainly, in our experience, the communities that we work with wouldn't consider themselves hard to reach, they wouldn't consider themselves disadvantaged, but they do think of these institutions as really, really distant, and that has kind of informed the way that we as an organisation work. We deliberately take our work to people—so, whether that's participatory work or it's our performance work or our talent development work or, indeed, our workforce development work. I think we need to think about 'hard to reach' differently, and if organisations are saying, 'These people are hard to reach', they're not trying hard enough. They need to look at different strategies. 

Thank you.

Great. Thank you. Diolch. 

Rhianon Passmore. 

Thank you very much. That's been very interesting so far. In regard to—. You're two very different animals. However, there is an element of public funding to both. I believe the Urdd has that top slice from the Welsh Local Government Association through its formula. I don't know how much that is. And, obviously, the Arts Council of Wales funds Rubicon. So, in regard to the fact that we have so much scarcity in the public purse and the fact that we are all looking at straitened financial envelopes in terms of anything that's publicly funded, do you think—? Perhaps to Rubicon, because your work is exemplary in this field and very well known: do you feel that other organisations could be doing more around participation with our more socioeconomically deprived communities?

Well, I can't really speak for other organisations. That's very difficult for me—

Have you a view on that?

Participation is a very particular discipline. It's very, very skilled, and I will take up to a year to invest in an individual before they are ready to deliver participatory work. It is very much woven into the fabric of what we do. It is not outreach; it is what we do. And what is important about it, what is successful, is that it is consistent, and not every single arts organisation is set up—or is able to deliver that consistency because they might be a touring company. And what you will then have is, perhaps, a brilliant project that hits—. I mean, I live in the Rhondda and an arts organisation came to the Rhondda and did a six-week residency at the Park and Dare, and it was fantastic and it set Treorchy on fire, and then the day after they'd gone it was like they'd never been.

Now, I think there is a real case for organisations working in partnership, but there needs to be a real understanding of partnership—what those partners can bring to the table. We work, for example, with Ballet Cymru very, very effectively. They're a touring organisation and, together, we're able to deliver the DUETS project, because communities need to trust you, and if you're going to come in and then you're going to come out, they're not going to trust you, and my experience, this kind of inspiration creeps up on people. It very rarely is a bolt of lightning and 'I'm going to go and dance'. It creeps up on you, and that can only be achieved by consistency.

I think it is an interesting question around funding, Rhianon, because I think we need to look at the priorities within the funding formula, and if the ambition is to engage more people in arts because it is a fantastic thing and it really can address things around health and well-being and so on, we need to spend the money effectively with the organisations that have the networks and the ability to do this. Because there is nothing worse than letting a community down, and that, structurally, can't be helped for an organisation that isn't geared up to deliver consistent provision. Thinking about dance, there is a whole network across Wales of organisations similar to Rubicon. You've got Dawns i Bawb in the north, Powys dance—right across Wales, and we are delivering and have community dance right across the nation. I would like to see, I think, more—. We engage a lot of people in dance, but that talent development part is missing. 

So, when you say 'talent development', you mean a pathway so that they can progress further into their fields of expertise? 

Yes. Nationally, that is very, very broken. There is no national pathway, unlike in other home countries—

Sorry to intervene. Wasn't the Welsh college of music and drama going to be developing the dance element? There were plans afoot, weren't there? 

Well, there have been plans for probably a decade and a half, and I think it is the way forward, Bethan, but without having the kind of pipeline underneath that, that could be problematic. We absolutely need to have a conservatoire-level course for dance in Wales, and it should be at the royal college of music and drama, but we also need to feed that. In England, for example, they have had, for 15 years—maybe a little bit longer—a national system where young people who have potential in dance are provided with a CAT scheme—centre for advanced training—and there are nine centres for advanced training. And what we are finding now is that young people who have gone through the CAT schemes dominate at conservatoire entry. Really—

Sorry to interrupt. So, that does not happen here in Wales. 

We do not have a similar system here in Wales. 

So, in terms of social mobility, especially with dance—I'll come to the others in a minute—it is far more accessible in terms of being able to express yourself at a very much more foundational level. So, that growth spurt is absolutely able to be observed and evaluated. So, as far as Wales is concerned, you can see that there's something there that can be filled in terms of social mobility, in terms of Caroline Jones's question earlier around being able to access more highly paid pathways. So, from your perspective, you would say that that is missing. 

It is. And we need to have a think about that at a kind of strategic level nationally and model what—. And I'm not saying it's the perfect answer, but we need to look at that because our young people are at a significant disadvantage. But part of that needs to be providing conservatoire-level provision in Wales. We don't have it right now, which means all of these talented people—Josh et cetera—have all had to go to England, and that's a huge waste of resource. 

We hear you. We hear you loudly and clearly. So, in regard to that wider participation, I think Mick Antoniw touched on earlier the fact that—. I don't know if there is a strategy around participation in the Urdd, but, obviously, in terms of how you're set up, you do have a fantastic reach; you have very good access across schools in Wales. So, in a sense, you are an absolutely fantastic vehicle to be able to access those children from our more deprived areas and schools and within schools. So, I suppose my question is, in terms of your fantastic benchmark ability, and understanding that your raison d'être around the Welsh language is absolutely foremost and front in the mind of the organisation, do you feel that you have outreach programmes that go in to more deprived communities that could begin to do that type of work? You touched upon a project, I think, earlier on. Could you extrapolate a little bit more on that future planning?

So, to interrupt you, if I may, that's what I really want to dig into. You've talked about some sort of future planning around this particular area. Because I'm thinking, in terms of when we do see the elite performers on the stage—and I will declare an interest; my son is participating at this moment in time—. But these are often—when it comes to non-choreographed and non-choral work, whether it's vocal or whether it's instrumental, it will come from those students who have had paid tuition, in the main. So, in that regard, do you feel that there's any duty, in a sense, from the Eisteddfod, bearing in mind my earlier questioning, to be able to put some outreach out there to encourage those schools, even, to participate in instrumental tuition so that we can actually garner those from that potential that we talked about, through Catrin, that potentially isn't recognised at the moment?

Yes, as I—

And, just to be clear, you don't have a strategy around participation, it is just the whole ethos of the Urdd in terms of reach, in terms of primary school. 

And finally, my final question, thank you, diolch. In terms of your wider working with other national bodies, whether it's the BBC Symphony Orchestra, whether it's Welsh National Opera or heritage museums, what sort of partnership working have you with our larger organisations, which do tend to take up a vast majority of the portfolio in terms of Welsh arts council funding? And the same applies there. 

Our partnership is at the heart of what we do. It has to be, it's a kind of necessity, and we have long-standing partnerships, as well. For us, it's really, really important that it's a partnership of equals and that our partners share our values, as well. Otherwise, it doesn't really work. So, we work very closely with Ballet Cymru, which I've mentioned to you, but also we are developing a really exciting project with the national museum around the arrival of the dinosaur, which I'm super excited about. And also we work—. Just thinking about what we're doing in the summer, we'll be  working with Only Boys Aloud. Our dancers and their singers will work together to create a tour, actually. So, partnership working is very, very important to us, but it is really important that it's a partnership of equals and that values are shared. We bring a lot to the table, and we are not a rent-a-crowd organisation. So, in the same way we want to commit to communities for a long time, we want to commit to our partners for a long time as well.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. I'll be quite succinct. We're looking at Fusion, specifically, as well. I'm not sure the Urdd has mentioned this, so it may just be for Rubicon, but you, in oral evidence and in written evidence, have very insightful remarks about it. But what's your general assessment of the Fusion programme in your experience, because, obviously, it's designed to get those organisations that may not be working jointly or with respect and equal value—? How has it done?

We are active members of the local Fusion partnership, and it is a very effective network. Without wanting to contradict previous evidence givers, we have met people from the Sherman and the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama and we have created a basis to develop things with them on. Its power is in its ability to bring arts organisations together. There is very little money for direct delivery, but our approach has been to use what little money there is available to leverage that so that we can attract more money to it. So, we've been able to develop a stroke session, we've been able to do quite an extensive programme at Grangetown nursery and we've done some work with the elderly. So, we're using quite small amounts of money to attract other bits of money.

I think it's a very important project. It would be fantastic if it had a more national reach, because it is very much focused on the old Communities First areas, and its power is in its ability to bring organisations together to broker those partnerships, because they have to be made somewhere. I think it will in time help organisations of similar values come together to deliver great work. Let's hope that it's something that can be sustained, as well, because it's great to have a programme, but you would need to commit to the long term for it. 

Perhaps without mentioning names—you're welcome to do so if you want, but I can imagine you may be tactful here—in your experience, has it improved the performance of some of the big national and big regional players in how they do partnership?

I find that difficult to answer, to be honest with you, David, because we have met fantastic partners through that. That's actually where we met the national museum, and that's where we started that conversation, which will lead this November to a fantastic piece involving lots of young people and a dinosaur. I can't really speak for the other organisations, but I would encourage them to engage with it.

You mentioned that a lot of the outreach that really gets to grass roots is basically based on the former Communities First areas, and we've heard evidence that the Fusion co-ordinators—and it's often only half a post, and it's not terribly well paid, really—they've filled a gap that previously the Communities First organisers had met. In terms of future funding, if we lose the ability to have these Fusion—or whatever the future will be called—arts co-ordinators, then presumably the whole initiative will be gravely weakened, in your view.

That's right. Networks won't organise themselves, and that's the real power of Fusion. There's a little bit of seed money, but that's a drop in the ocean. The value is in the network, and that will bring organisations of all sorts to the table, but it has to be something that's going to be there for the long term. You've got to commit to it for the long term.

Thank you. I don't know if the Urdd have got anything to add on this. If you have, we'd be happy to hear it, but obviously we did want to focus on Fusion specifically.

That's right, and prior to Fusion we would engage with the relevant Communities First clusters in Cardiff, and we were bereft when that—.

Who knows?

Thank you.