National Assembly for Wales

Can I take those headphones off for a minute? Gosh, that's quite a long question. It really depends. A lot of the funding that we get as a local authority comes from Welsh Government, and the funding that comes, particularly for the Communities First programme—obviously the funding comes with particular criteria et cetera. So, we don't, as such, bid for funding for groups as a local authority. That's predominantly done by our county voluntary council. So, it's predominantly done in Caerphilly by Gwent Association of Voluntary Organisations. It's a specific role in supporting the voluntary sector. We bid more for money directly to Welsh Government for large programmes, as opposed to funding for small organisations.

Yes. The programmes that we are responsible for in Caerphilly have, to date, all been anti-poverty programmes. So, they have specific targets around poverty, yes.

It's Welsh Government. Our allocation of funding is tied in with the Welsh index of multiple deprivation, which is determined by Welsh Government. So, the funding that comes in is allocated geographically according to Welsh Government, and the amount of funding awarded is also determined by Welsh Government.

Sorry, what I was trying to get at in the second question, though, was, in terms of the voluntary sector, you said that the local voluntary association determines a lot of the local grants—do you then pass over that responsibility to that CVC, or how is that decided upon? That's what I was trying to ask, sorry.

No. The CVC supports local groups to bid into a wide-ranging pot of money, so it could be the lottery, it could be other Welsh Government grants, but it's their role to support the voluntary sector to access grants outside of the larger grants that we get as a local authority.

As a council—perhaps this is just as a starting point—with the resources you have, what is your main priority in terms of the area of the arts and culture and particularly the anti-poverty agenda? What's the main thing you're trying to achieve?

I'm probably not the best person to answer that. My role in Caerphilly council is specifically around delivering Welsh Government anti-poverty programmes. So, in relation to our culture, heritage and tourism, it's actually a different part of the local authority.

I'm talking specifically in terms of support specifically for the arts and the creative side.

I would say we, within the local authority, try and make the most of the assets that we've got. We've got a few museums and we've got local heritage sites within the authority, so I see our role within the community side as linking those sorts of areas that are more deprived with those assets.

So, how do you specifically do that? Because, I mean, I know the areas that the council represents well, and I've got many of the same in Rhondda Cynon Taf and so on, and we know what they are, but how do you actually focus it so that it has an impact?

I think it's about trying to support and encourage residents to access the opportunities. A lot of the time, they're excluded from it for a number of reasons—financial reasons, transport reasons et cetera. So, it often isn't at the forefront of people's minds who are living in poverty. They have such a wide range of issues that they're having to address around a load of issues that affect them because of poverty. Accessing culture is not necessarily something that they would consider as important or even consider looking at doing. I think what we try to do, or the team tries to do, and what the funding that was provided enables, is actually to help to break down those barriers for people to benefit from cultural opportunities that they wouldn't normally access.

But that's one aspect, which is about access, actually—participation, engagement and contact. Of course, part of that leads on to the issue of people being able to work within that sort of sector. Do you see that as a separate target or way in which you operate from the access issue, or do they sort of meld together?

I think they meld together, really. Within our department, we've got the regeneration side—the old Communities First legacy, but we've also got the Communities for Work and Communities for Work+ programmes, which are employment support. So, through the Fusion network, we've been able to offer opportunities from cultural partners for things like volunteering but also vacancies, through our mentors who then work with participants one-to-one. So, again, it's that bridging role, that linking role, between the cultural partners and the community.

What sort of success have you had, then, in terms of people, from the development of access, developing into actually participating in and possibly even working within the sector? Have you any way of evaluating how successful you think you've been and what you've actually achieved—? So, if I was to say, 'Can you write down the two or three key achievements that you think have been achieved?', what are they?

In terms of the employment side, that's been relatively new within the last year or so, so we haven't got much monitoring around that, although we are able to track our participants' journeys, so that is something that we could feed back on if that was required. But the other part was around—sorry, can you—? It was the employment—

It's really how you evaluate the success. What are the key things that you think you've achieved so far with your work? Because evaluating what the outcomes are is really quite important. You said with the first one, in terms of monitoring in terms of employment, that it's too early, really, to start monitoring, so perhaps you don't have any data that would support that. What would be the other areas you say that you think are successful or are indicating success?

Perhaps things happening where they weren't before. So, there's a project that's run nationally called the Night Out scheme, which brings theatre performances and theatre companies into community venues. The idea, then, that there are community volunteers that will help to promote the event—sell tickets and perhaps generate some income on the evening from sales of the tickets but also refreshments and things. That wasn't previously happening before Fusion came about within Caerphilly. It's a relatively new thing, and that's something that's been successful. I suppose the measure of success there is that we've had several performances in different communities, and different community groups have come together to make those events happen in their communities, where they weren't before.

What do you think that that has achieved, or what difference has it made in terms of alleviation or contributing to the alleviation of poverty? Or is that something that's difficult to evaluate at this stage?

I think that's very difficult to evaluate. What it achieves is that it brings culture into communities that wouldn't normally have access to it. It brings communities together, so there's a cohesion element to it, but there's also a skills element to it, because they learn to plan and to budget, which are skills that they need to go into employment anyway. So, there's a whole raft of things, but to directly attribute it to the alleviation of poverty I think is probably impossible.

Do you have any proposals or system in respect of how you intend to evaluate and measure outcomes within this area in terms of the way the resources are used?

I mean, the Communities First programme doesn't exist anymore. The budgets that we had to support anti-poverty no longer exist. So, to be honest, the Fusion project no longer provides funding, so this is historical as opposed to current.

Is it the case, then, that it's fair to say that there are lots of nice things, lots of things that we possibly could do if we had the resources, but the reality is that with the resources we have, we are literally just scratching the surface?

Yes.

Yes. Like I say, things like the Night Out scheme are continuing to happen, which was obviously started using the funding from Welsh Government via Fusion and has continued to happen now. So, things are ongoing, but, yes, funding always will play a big part.

Okay. I'll leave it there.

Can I just ask a small question? You kind of answered it just at the end, but you said that this was historical, so what are the ongoing things if a lot of what you're saying today is due to Communities First? Just so I can clarify for my own mind—if we come to any recommendations, we want to be clear what your capacity has been compared to what you have now.

I'd say the main things have been the relationships built between officers and links, and finding out about things that perhaps we didn't know about before via the network. So, it's been more the networking that's been the main thing that's continuing now, because that doesn't need any extra resource.

Okay. So, just to put it plainly, what is your budget?

In relation to?

To tackling poverty with regard to the arts and culture.

Nothing.

Nothing. [Laughter.] That's what I was trying to understand.

What we try to do within the budgets that we've got is we sort of—. Being part of Fusion has sort of increased our propensity to use the arts, then, as a tool for engagement and for tackling things, whereas before we might not have thought of different options. I think that's what it's provided for us. So, yes, we are using our current budgets. We might have bent them, and rather than doing something in one way, perhaps engaged a different partner and done it in a slightly more innovative way.

But we have no specific budget. Predominantly, our budgets now are focused on getting people into work, and sometimes that will include the cultural sector. As Lauren said, that's enabled us to develop links that we probably wouldn't necessarily have had before, to enable people to consider looking at that as an option for employment. But, predominantly, our funding comes from getting people into work, and we have very strict targets in relation to getting people into work.   

The point is that, in getting people into work as a result of this, you've got no data whatsoever that can actually evaluate the level of success that you have.

We have data for all of our employment support participants—their journeys et cetera—but what I don't have now is exactly how many people have gone into work in the cultural sector. I could provide it—

Well, that would be helpful.

—if I was asked for the data. We could look at how many people actually went into that sector.

Thank you.

Great. Rhianon Passmore.

Thank you. So that I'm clear also: you've obviously still got—not 'obviously'—but you do have an arts development unit still within Caerphilly County Borough Council. 

It's regional now, but we do have—

It's now regional.

It is regional, yes.

Okay. No doubt, in terms of the passported cuts to local government, it's extremely tight in terms of what you've got left to play with. So, so that I'm clear, the Fusion participation from Caerphilly and Torfaen—is that a co-ordinator role shared between the both of you with no budget attached to it?

Yes.

Yes, okay. So, in that regard, then, that is limited, and it is a legacy from Communities First. Do you feel that that, with regard to attendance at cultural events, in your opinion, in any way brokers a pathway through to accreditation? Or do you think that participation—actually working within projects, being able potentially to take part in accreditation and then, potentially, in an accreditation vertical pathway—is the way that you will get more social mobility through the arts? Have you got an opinion on that? There is very limited research around this, so it's just your perspective in terms of your backgrounds in regeneration.

The thing is, it's such a difficult thing to measure. What it's done is it's actually enabled individuals who wouldn't normally participate. It is really as simple as that. As a little example, we've got the most deprived community in Wales adjacent to one of the most historic monuments in Wales.

Is that Lansbury Park? Yes.

When we did our consultation in Lansbury Park, very few people had even been to the castle. I think that demonstrates, actually, the divide between cultural and historical things and, actually, our most deprived communities. What it enabled us to do partly was engage, particularly, the children in Lansbury in activities and take them—I know that sounds—. But we take them to the castle that is opposite them. I think that that's what it enabled. It isn't necessarily something that, I would be honest, as regeneration officers, we would necessarily have focused on as a priority. 

Okay. So, in that regard, due to that—for whatever reason; we'll park that—lack of ability, whether it's because you can't pay your rent or you can't pay your electric bill, and you haven't got the transport to be able to take you to an attraction of that historic monument, do you believe, then, that that is a significant barrier to those who are on very low incomes to participating in the arts, but also to be able to be upskilled enough to work in the arts? There is, from previous witnesses, debate around whether or not it's that early engagement in the arts and in heritage that therefore sponsors that spark of enthusiasm. But, then, you also need that pathway to be able to grow your interest, and that can often be very expensive. So, is there, in your view, a cultural divide between those who are on a very low income and those who may not be on such a low income? 

Obviously, we've got no evidential basis; it is purely from—. But I would say, yes, from our experience of working in those communities, there is definitely a divide. It is not something that they would necessarily consider. If you're not exposed to that at a young age, it's highly unlikely that it's going to be a career path—

So, perhaps we're asking the wrong questions, then, because if you're not able to actually have that missing middle, or even that missing foundation of that engagement to upskill yourself enough to be involved enough at a greater extent professionally, then you're never going to have that evidence later on to prove that there's a link. That's my opinion. Thank you.  

Delyth Jewell. 

Just to draw out some of the questions that Rhianon Passmore has already been asking, in terms of the pathways into working in the arts, what kind of barriers do you think face people, particularly if they're coming from maybe backgrounds where we wouldn't traditionally think people would go into working in the arts? 

I think it's more the poverty of aspiration, really, and just a very small world, and not seeing the wider—

It isn't just the arts. I think there is a poverty of aspiration into many career paths, and it's something we discuss a lot, particularly with our colleagues in education and colleges, et cetera. It's actually an awareness of what wider employment opportunities there are that people aren't necessarily aware of. In fact, I was talking about a similar thing to this yesterday in the council. When you have streets where you have nobody in employment and you have third generation unemployed, it isn't just a job in the arts—it's a job that is alien, let alone looking at something that's cultural. There are barriers before you even start looking at employment in things like arts and culture. Often, it's another world to people; it's not something that they would automatically consider, no.  

In some of the previous evidence that we've heard, we've heard because pay in this sector tends to be quite low, particularly for the first jobs that people would be going into the sector with, there's this real possibility and danger that that could be entrenching that situation whereby people feel that participation in its wider sense, including working in or engaging with the arts, is only for people who are either affluent or who are already in that sphere. What do you think can be done to overcome that? I know that's a very difficult question. 

You've touched on it—it's raising awareness at a very young age, because those opportunities are not provided to young children necessarily from the home, so how do you engage children at a young age into culture and arts, et cetera, when it's not something that their family have historically engaged in? 

Through the Fusion network, we've worked with one of the local colleges and the arts department there—performing arts, all sorts of arts and design—and they've found that numbers of students enrolling in those topics have dropped off quite significantly, which they put down partially to parental aspiration believing that, actually, there's no point because there are no jobs within the sector as well, and that it's not a viable career path for them. So, there are different elements involved in that, I think, as well.    

Okay. 

Do they work? Do those types—? If they come in and they do a scheme for a year or two years, and then leave, is that something that helps? How do you think that the way the arts council funds these types of initiatives can be improved for the future? 

The problem with any grant funding is it's not sustainable, is it, in the long term, and that's the point that we've made about—. It's more about mainstreaming these types of things than it is about actually putting pots of money that have particular criteria and at the end of two years, they're gone. I'm not sure that that's really beneficial, particularly in the communities where we work. And, actually, changing the cultural aspirations of a community can't happen in two years. So, you find that you start things with grant funding, then the funding ends, and how then do you continue that? Often, you've started to make inroads, but then—. So, I think it's—. I'm not sure that the grants that are available are particularly geared up to support the anti-poverty agenda.  

What would you change? 

I think that's a very difficult question, and it's quite a large question isn't it, really? I don't really know. I don't really know. As I said, I think it's more about mainstreaming and less about short-term grant funding. 

Rhianon. 

So, in that regard, bearing in mind the extreme financial constraints that are on local authorities and on Wales in general—put that to one side—is it, then, in terms of your comments around mainstreaming, more about potential investment in staying structures that are in place? For instance, whether it was funded, I don't know, as an example, music support services or arts development teams, ideally, if we look at Scandinavian models on a different scale, those would then endemically, systemically always be working with those in that lower poverty sector quartile, so that then you would in-build those accreditation, upskilling routes, so that they are part of the general everyday culture of all, starting at a younger age? Is that a sensible idea or not?  

Yes, in an ideal world if funding was available then, yes, that would be the ideal way to move forward, but the problem is—

So, it's about structures and—

The problem is, as you know, local government funding is—. And actually, arts and culture are not a statutory responsibility, and with the cuts that the local authority has to make, they're seen as 'nice' add-ons to do if you've got the money to do them, aren't they? 

Okay, thank you. 

David Melding. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I'd just like to go back to the Night Out programme. How many performances have there been in the last year or two? 

Just in Caerphilly? 

Yes. 

I know of at least four. 

And what's the subject matter of the performance? Were people involved in choosing it, or was it pretty much—

Yes, they tend to be, because of the community members that we've got organising, a lot of mums. So, they tend to be a lot of children and family shows. But the Night Out scheme has a list of performances that are available and, yes, the community can choose which ones they think they'd like to bring in. 

And then they, in essence, run the additional things that are on offer when you have a performance, like selling tickets. Presumably, a lot of the tickets are discounted or at no cost, but there may then be some fundraising or selling of refreshments and things. 

Yes, exactly. 

So, it's trying to get them more actively involved as well as, obviously, being then in the audience, presumably. Are there any chances for being engaged in a performance for the younger people, perhaps? 

I'm not aware with the Night Out scheme as such, but we have done other projects where children from local schools have been involved in performances with professional companies. 

Okay. That strikes me as very well conceived and executed, by the sound of it, without going and seeing a performance, but it does strike me as quite relevant and encouraging. Would you say that it reduces the barriers in terms of the type of people who are accessing those performances? Because in any community, you're still going to get some people with genuine interest in artistic endeavour.

Yes. Again, it's only anecdotal from my own perspective, but I would say probably, yes, there are definitely people who have come along who wouldn't have considered going to a performance in the Wales Millennium Centre, for example. The fact that it's in their community on their doorstep—it's just less intimidating. Obviously, the cost of the ticket—transport is not an issue because it's local.

So, we've heard from some of the larger organisations—it was interesting that you mentioned the WMC—that we need to look at how people then are introduced to—. People in Caerphilly and Torfaen have contributed to the great venues in Cardiff one way or another—they belong to them as much as those of us who live in Cardiff and the surrounding area. But there needs to be nurturing and mentoring, almost, because it's not easy to walk through the entrance, is it, to the millennium centre, and then you see around you—where do you go, find your seat and everything? 

Even things like theatre etiquette and things. 

Yes. So, I think perhaps that is the natural follow-up to the type of Night Out activity. They both stand up in their own rights as well, but we do need to think in those terms, don't we, of how we take it forward?

Is there a real problem about what we define as 'artistic activity'? Because to be human is to be engaged in cultural conduct—it's impossible not to; we are creative beings. And I just wonder, access to the great cultural advance in the twentieth century—cinema—although it was technically the late nineteenth century when it was developed, but it seems to me if you're looking at one cultural experience to mark a century—the twentieth century and now our twenty-first—it's cinema. And if you're not accessing it as a child or young person having that opportunity, you're excluded from all sorts of conversations at college and school, and just generally the relevance of what's going on around you. So, is this an issue, or do you find that people do access cinema perhaps because they do see it as more relevant to their life, and can get on and do that?   

Even cinema, I think, is prohibited in some communities, predominantly because of location, really. So, we do have a number of areas where we do outside community cinemas. So, we've got one in Bargoed, for example. It brings cinema to the community but, again, all of that provision is under threat because of funding. 

Yes. And the schemes, if they weren't under the threat of austerity—in your experience to date, have they been flexible enough to pay for transport and the tickets, or do you find that when your project's evaluated, people are saying, 'Crikey, you've spent all that money taking a group of children to see Captain Marvel' or whatever? Or do people say, 'Good on you, that's exactly what you should be doing', which would be my answer, but— 

I think the response is mixed, shall we say? Some people value it more than others. There are the questions of, 'Why did you spend all that money taking a bus of—?' And we've done that—taken a—. Under the Communities First programme, we took a lot of young people on buses to cinemas, to the theatre—we brought them to the New Theatre. We did quite a lot of that, but I think there were a lot of questions asked at the time, 'Why are you spending money doing that?' So, I think, yes—it's because it's difficult to measure. It's a difficult outcome to measure. So, you've given someone a cultural experience—what's the long-term benefit of that? How do you measure that? How do you provide evidence for that? Whereas if we take somebody to something you've got a clear outcome to, people can say, 'That's all right, then'. So, it is problematic, yes, definitely. 

Do you find that can also be an issue when, presumably, you encourage people locally to identify a particular cultural project or experience they would like? And they might come up with something like the history of professional darts, if there have been any local residents that have gone on to do that, or something like that in the sporting world—dog racing, all sorts of things could crop up about which I could see some funders thinking, 'Oh well, why would that be seen as a relevant higher cultural activity to pursue?', where, actually, it's very interesting, I think, how people come together and gain a communal experience and understanding or something. So, when they do choose subjects relevant to them, are we responsive? Or do we need to be more responsive?

Yes. I think it needs to be more responsive, yes. But I think, just as you said, the cohesion element alone of doing things together in a community is hugely valuable. The fact that you get people coming together with Night Out and they're planning together and those relationships that they develop as part of that—they're long-term sustainable relationships, and we've seen groups go on to do other things together because of what they've done. So, there are so many wider benefits than just the actual cultural experience.

David, just before you carry on, on this theme, Mick Antoniw just had a short supplementary.

Just one point. Is the biggest problem that, unless you've started that spark of aspiration at a very early age, it just becomes more and more difficult, the further along you go? So, trying to target this too far ahead really becomes a sort of synergistically decreasing benefit from the use of resources, and it's the development of that spark, that opportunity, at earlier ages that's the one that produces the big effect. Is that a realistic view or—?

Probably, yes, in terms of things like careers in the arts and in that sector, maybe, but I still think that, even as an adult, if you've never had the opportunity to do something and then you're given that opportunity, it's always going to be a positive thing.

Okay, thank you.

David, sorry.

I've heard people in Cardiff say that the great advantage for them from the Fusion programme, which is very modestly funded, is that at least it allows a co-ordinator to be employed and these are basically doing a lot of activity that may have been done in Communities First programmes previously. Is that your experience? Do you have a specific co-ordinator or is that kind of mainstreamed between various offices?

No, no; it's shared at the moment between Caerphilly and Torfaen.

And have you found that post really transformative in what you're trying to do?

Transformative—I'm not sure. But, definitely, as I say, in terms of being a central point and your comments around monitoring and things—you know, all our data goes to that person who collates it all, so there is someone. So, again, they would probably be able to provide you with more in terms of the hard outcomes. We're only one partner in Caerphilly in terms of our team. There are also lots of different bodies in Caerphilly that would still report to that Fusion co-ordinator.

So, if, in terms of a recommendation we make we would say that, even in tight funding regimes, we see—. And I think a lot of what we've talked about has been first access, so people can get more opportunities to see cultural activity or engage in it themselves, and then that may lead on to other things as well, like skills development and even directly to volunteering or even a job opportunity. And I think you're very coherent, if I may say so, in saying that that's really where you see it. All of this doesn't increase someone's income very quickly, and I think we have to be very careful about what we can realistically do in combating the direr effects of poverty that, frankly, do relate to resources and income. So, if we were to say that at least the funding of Fusion co-ordinators needs to be made long term, do you think that would be a key thing for us to do?

I think it would definitely support the work that we're trying to do, yes.

And then the issues around evaluation I think we've already covered, but it was interesting—last week we heard from a couple of community projects, and they said that what frustrated them is that it's all right, the number counting, and you need to do it, because it does show if you've got anyone through the door getting involved, but it's really how you try to assess, perhaps is a better way of putting it, qualitative aspects. And that you really can only do by talking to people, isn't it, and do they come back and did they find it a rewarding experience, and we need to really make sure that, in any assessment work that we're doing, that qualitative side is amply covered, and it's not particularly easy to measure.

No. The main way we try to do that is by a case-study approach. Again, as you say, just talking to the person and trying to capture as much as we can of the experience.

And I may have just covered this slightly, but the other thing I've heard about Fusion is—. It's obviously got a local dimension, and I have to say, I've seen this through Cardiff, which is perhaps not a brilliant comparator for you, but they've said that the regional and national organisations—and obviously in Cardiff we have a lot of them based here—have then been encouraged to get involved and open up their collections, potentially, develop exhibition ideas, get people to write some of the interpretation: why they think this photograph is significant, or this artwork or whatever, and that's really been key. Does it get out as far as you or am I just reflecting the advantages that Cardiff has with these larger bodies on their doorstep?

No, I'd say so. Well, particularly with Cadw that we've got in Caerphilly, but, yes, the People's Collection Wales have come out and done things as well, which is a national organisation. So, yes, I would say it has done.

Yes. And that could be like—it's a similar concept to the Night Out scheme, where we're getting exhibitions out there and more interactive as well. That, again—well (1) it belongs to everyone, so it should be in their community. It's in my community because I happen to live in the Cardiff area. But we perhaps need to do a bit more work in spreading that activity around, would you say?

Yes.

Okay. Thanks.

Rhianon Passmore.

Thank you. In regard to the whole theme around legacy after a project or a programme has been in an area—in particular, I suppose, around the Night Out scheme, which everybody would agree has been valuable in various soft measures—would there be any benefit, in your regard, assuming that you have the capacity, or there was a capacity, in terms of resource, in providing some sort of alumni so that there could be then any targeted accreditation gateway attached to it for those who wished so that there was some sort of follow-up, either from the local authority or the Welsh arts council, specifically around the Night Out scheme, a sort of Night Out scheme plus, which would then open that accredited pathway then? Is there something like that currently? And would there be any benefit to that in terms of upskilling those who have had that spark of interest and have thoroughly enjoyed it or are interested to pursue?

Yes, I'm not fully conversant with it, but there are the arts awards, which—. When you say 'accreditation', you're referring to qualifications, yes. So, there is that scheme that's available, and I think that when they do Night Out, I think they try and bring in some of the arts awards at various levels. It is a low-level qualification, but, yes, at least it is bringing in some— 

So, there is a current context around that. Further, then, to that initial gateway, do you know if there is anything, then, that would take you forward in terms of accreditation into any pathway?

There may well be. I'm—

Okay. Perhaps that's something that we can find out, Chair.

Do you want to start with the programme, Kelly, and then we can widen out?

Yes. So, specifically, I run arts and creativity programmes that are specifically for older people, and for that we use the Welsh Government definition of 50-plus, which seems like a very wide demographic to us. So, one of the particular programmes that we run is the Gwanwyn festival, and through that we disseminate grants to grass-roots organisations, local organisations and larger organisations that work across Wales. By doing that, they are engaging directly with the older people who live in those areas. So, the festival and the content of the festival is led from the ground up, really, and what we're seeing is more and more older people themselves running the events, and that's a particularly important engagement for us, I would say.

But in terms of tackling poverty, does that come into this Gwanwyn project or—?

Yes. I think it's about giving people the opportunities to connect to the community and to create opportunities for people to increase their self-esteem, and, through that, they're becoming richer in their lives through engaging in the activities and they are often getting volunteering opportunities and some of them are then possibly moving on to employment opportunities as well.

Yes, from a wider point of view, we engage directly in a lot of different ways with older people. We have a network of about 600 older people who we regularly communicate with, who themselves have wider networks—people like chairs of 50-plus forums across Wales, who are very engaged in their local communities. We make good use of our trustees in engaging with their networks as well. So, directly and indirectly, we disseminate newsletters and so on, and that enables us to ask specific questions to inform the policies and the projects and the programmes, including our arts and culture programme, that we're working on at the time. 

We also host Age Alliance Wales. That's a network of about 30 organisations with an interest in older people. We recently did some focus groups around Wales, talking directly to older people. In our last round of focus groups, we included groups with people from black and minority ethnic communities and LGBTQ+ communities around Wales. And through those focus groups, we unearthed some very poignant issues of social isolation and experience of poverty, going beyond income, to people living quite restricted and lonely lives—whose lives were not flourishing. So, poverty has as much to do with experience as it is to do with money.

We have an information and advice line, and that will help people who contact us to maximise their income. So, we have advisers who are advising people on their entitlements and benefits they might not be claiming and we estimate that poverty in older people could be reduced by a third if everyone claimed the benefits that they were entitled to. So, as well as advising on an individual level, we also lobby Welsh Government and we work with local authorities to try to improve the ways in which people find out about their entitlements, to try to help argue for streamlining of systems so that people are automatically notified of benefits that they're entitled to.

The council tax reduction scheme is a case in point, where local authorities are notified by the Department for Work and Pensions when someone is entitled to pension credit. Pension credit is a gateway benefit because it opens up access to another range of benefits, one of which is council tax reduction. We find that one part of a local authority has been notified by the Department for Work and Pensions of the names of its residents who are entitled to council tax reduction, but, because of miscommunication within a local authority, the person is not notified by the council tax bit of the authority that they are entitled to that reduction. So, we do our lobbying and influencing work to campaign for better communications, more streamlining, more automatic notification of those benefits. Our local brand partners, our local Age Cymru organisations, are the ones embedded in local communities who are delivering income-maximisation support to people locally, and they report back to us what their clients say to them, and that informs our priorities for influencing work.

Okay. Diolch. Mick Antoniw.

Just as a starting point, I’ve addressed many of your over-50 clubs—I fit in well myself, and sometimes I don’t want to leave. But 50-plus is such a wide range of people. Is that an issue for you in terms of focus? Because it seems to me that almost half the population almost fit in within that category now, you know.

Yes, and as the older people’s commissioner has pointed out, older people are the most diverse group in society. It is only an older person who can embody all the protected characteristics in one person, because you have to be of a certain age. So, we're very well aware of diversity, and our arts programme is a very good example of how we respond to diversity, particularly with Gwanwyn festival, where there are lots of different options for people to take part in lots of different kinds of things. So, they can self-select there.

One of the things you mentioned was social isolation, which I think is increasingly recognised as a real issue, particularly in some of the more deprived communities. And, of course, I know that is one of your targets. How do you actually try to address that? Because, purely by definition, in terms of isolation, it’s a very difficult grouping to access. But it’s one of the focus areas that access to cultural and artistic engagement could probably deliver some of the best outcomes for. How do you deal with that, and how is that funded?

Do you want to talk about the arts programme specifically? We can widen out after that.

Through the Gwanwyn festival, we’ve been able to develop relationships with organisations that maybe have a wider remit than us, but are able to target specific communities. So, for example, we worked on a project with Men’s Sheds Cymru, who, although they don't exclusively work with men and don't exclusively work with older people, are really embedded in the rural communities and are looking to work directly with people who are really socially isolated. And by connecting with them, we are able to reach the older members of that community.

So, we were able to do a project called Pimp My Uke, which we developed a couple of years ago, and my predecessor always describes it as ‘arts by stealth’, because, if we’d said to the members of this organisation that we worked with, Squirrels Nest Men’s Sheds in Tondu, 'Would you want to do an arts project?’, there’s no way they would have got involved. But, by taking create-your-own ukulele kits to them and asking them to build them and then kind of asking them to decorate them, and saying, ‘Would you like to learn to play something on them?’, eventually, that led to a performance on the stage at St David's Hall. So, because of the reach of our organisation, we have to occasionally rely on the smaller organisations in partnership to reach the really socially isolated.

You mentioned one other thing, which I’d just like to develop a little bit, about opportunities for employment. Again, you’re talking about an age band where a big chunk of the community is employed, but, of course, a big chunk isn’t. Can you expand a bit on what has actually happened, what are the employment opportunities, what examples have you seen, what sort of—I suppose, what sort of outcomes are you able to see out of this?

Through the arts project specifically, we have developed relationships with older artists and people who identify as older. So, yes, we work with 12 artists currently on our cARTrefu arts and care homes project, and I would say that at least two of those are 50-plus, and, in the previous iteration of the project, there were several members again, mentors and artists, who were older. So, we are able to provide employment opportunities for older artists. Through the Gwanwyn festival grants, because we're giving funds to organisations and older people to run their own events, we're providing opportunities for them to then grow projects, to get funding from other areas to grow them further.

Okay, thank you.

Rhianon Passmore.

Thank you very much. Those are very interesting examples that you've given us that are very relevant, actually. One of the issues that have been presented to us within these sessions is that there's often a double whammy attached to those in poverty accessing or participating in arts and culture and heritage, and that is not just the money, which is fundamental, but it's also the time. Obviously, older people tend, generally, if they haven't got carer responsibilities, to have more time. I'm very interested in the festival you've talked about. Does it have a range across Wales and how many participants do you have in that project?

Yes, the project runs across Wales. We tend to fund, depending on the amounts of money that people apply for, between 40 and 50 projects. So, we can see up to 10,000 participants in a year, if there's a lot of activity happening.

Obviously, this is all dependent on resources and capacity. But, as a successful project that you have evaluated, do you feel that there's scope for that being rolled out on a bigger scale across Wales?

Absolutely. I think, with a larger grant from Welsh Government, we could obviously fund larger projects, larger scale projects, more projects across Wales. That's always a possibility. I think what I'm interested in now is looking at the Gwanwyn clubs model that we have as well that we've trialled, which was funded by Arts Council of Wales. That was trialled in Aberystwyth and Caernarfon in 2017, looking at regular weekly provision for older people. 

What does that mean, weekly provision?

Day clubs each week for older people who are at risk of being or are socially isolated. By running it regularly for six months, we were able to prove that there was a need for it, and both clubs became self-sustaining. That was just a little bit of seed funding that really made that project happen. We've had money from the Arts Council of Wales again to trial it in Newport and Swansea this year, and we want to use that evidence to look at a longer term funding application so that we can trial it in other areas and roll out that provision so that it's not just one month in May when there's activity happening, but something across the year. 

So, from your bench line, do you feel that, in terms of accessing specifically around arts and culture and heritage your programmes are a good—I know you're going to say, 'Yes, they are', but do you feel that you can evaluate and give us evidence, and you may not agree with this point, do you feel you can give evidence to this committee or not that by accessing arts and culture and heritage this not only produces soft measures in terms of confidence, but do you think it actually adds to any employability or social mobility around that limited access to your limited programmes at the moment? Have you got a view on that or is it impossible to answer?

We've had testimonial responses from some of the participants in the Gwanwyn clubs where they have said that, by engaging in weekly provision, they are more confident and more able to call themselves artists, which I think is an interesting point in itself. I think that, with development and with, potentially, mentoring opportunities, that could lead to employment opportunities. 

It would be interesting for us as a committee to have any case studies around that. That brings me on to my last question: in regard to that next step after you've had that experience that is hopefully going to be motivational and inspirational to that individual, what then happens on your programme? Is there any mentoring that takes place to open up that wider world of participation within the arts, rather than the limited access to what sounds like a fantastic project?

Not currently, but it's something that I'd really like to explore if we were to take Gwanwyn clubs further, to work with arts venues and cultural venues to start to make them age-friendly employers. I think maybe Val can discuss more about age-friendly employability.

Specifically in relation to the arts? I mean—

And specifically with regard to those that may be suffering in terms of financial deprivation. Obviously, this inquiry is about those in poverty. So, from your perspective, you're working, as you said, with those with all the protected characteristics. So, if you've got them in that little cohort and you know where they are, where is your analysis of where that moves to in terms of employability?

I think that in terms of employability in general, what we would like to see is earlier discussion between employers and employees about plans for later working life that focus on the older person's own aspirations. That might well include more time for creativity, more flexibility around employment—so, not just the right to request flexible employment, but harder rights in actually receiving the kind of flexibility that people want, and not having the employer's view of flexibility imposed on them.

Which I fully understand. But in relation to the arts and the Gwanwyn festival and that programme, is there any follow-up work from your organisation in that regard, in terms of employability pathways, as a result of accessing any other—?

Not at the moment, but it's certainly an interesting direction that we would want to think about.

Delyth Jewell.

There's a lot of focus in this sector, and particularly with older people, on volunteering. Do you think that that can be a barrier if you were looking to engage older people who were from a less wealthy background?

We have experience in Age Cymru, both in head office and in our projects and programmes—physical activity and other programmes as well—of people who regard, and who make volunteering work for them, as a step back into employment. So, volunteering can go both ways. It can be an important part of people winding down into retirement or making the transition into retirement. But, equally, we have people who have volunteered with us and become employed as a result of that.

It would be useful to see if you've got any case studies or anything that you could share with us. That would be really useful, please.

Sure, okay.

Do you think that there can sometimes be a perception—? We've heard from lots of people who have given evidence about this that, just as with participating in the arts can be for people who are quite affluent—. Do you think that, in the same way, in terms of either volunteering or wanting to work in this sector—if you are an older person—there are other barriers that would compound the fact that you're already—I was going to say 'at a disadvantage' because, as Mick was saying earlier that the—? No, sorry, this was in a previous session. We were talking in a previous session about how, if people are engaged at a very early age in the arts, then they are much more likely to feel that it belongs to them. With the work that you'll be doing, you will be at the opposite end of the spectrum. So, what are some of the barriers that you would see that would compound that for older people who want to not just participate in the arts, but also to actually volunteer or to want to find employment? 

Directly, we've had anecdotes from people living in care homes who have, time and time again, said to our artists, 'Oh, I was told that I was no good at art in school, so I haven't done it ever since.' So, a lot of barriers are in people's own perceptions of what they can achieve. In care homes, one of our projects, the cARTrefu project—one of the findings from the research that we did around it was that staff attitudes towards what the residents could achieve was improved, and the artists' attitudes to what residents can achieve had improved as well. So, I think that perception is a massive part of it. 

I also think that—and this is something that the Bevan Foundation have also pointed out—with the arts being one of the lowest paid sectors in the UK, that will always be a barrier to people. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to volunteer or do low-paid internships, and that reaches everyone across demographics. So, I can see why there is a perception there that you might not be able to afford to get into working in the arts if you don't have the luxury of being able to afford to earn less than other people. 

But we do pay above Equity minimum, don't we?

Yes, for all our artists, and anyone we fund as well. Obviously, we're always encouraging people to pay artists at the rates that they should be paying them, above and beyond, and not replacing what could be paid work with volunteers.

Great, thank you. And finally, this isn't related, but you were talking earlier about how Gwanwyn clubs might be taken forward in the future. What plans—? How would you like them to develop?

I would really like to see cultural venues and arts venues becoming really age-friendly organisations for volunteering and employability participation. I think that's a fundamental aim for me. But it's also about the community recognising that it's a community asset and it's a public space that they own and can have an influence on. So, I think it's about bringing the two together through these sorts of Gwanwyn clubs where participants are able to take ownership of the venue and feel like it's a space that they can use, but also that the venues and the cultural spaces recognise that older people are a valuable asset as well, in terms of that they could be used for focus groups, programming decisions, they make use of the spaces, they use cafes, and things like that. So, I think there's a real opportunity there.

And sustainability is a big issue, isn't it? And one of our big aims for the next round of Gwanwyn clubs is sustainability.

Great, thank you.

Diolch, Delyth. Caroline Jones.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. A benefit of the Fusion project has been described as achieving greater collaboration between the various cultural organisations. So, could I ask if you have any involvement within the Fusion programme, and what that may be, and if you can describe what you think the effectiveness of the Fusion programme has been so far, and if you can give an insight into your opinions of the Fusion project to start with, please?

Since I've been in post, we haven't directly engaged with the Fusion programme, other than that my predecessor and I were invited to a Fusion meeting where we presented on evaluation methods that we've used, to give an example of best practice and where they might be able to utilise the sorts of methods that we've used to evaluate Fusion programmes. So, we haven't got direct experience of working within it, but I do think there is, obviously, a benefit to the collaborative approach of it. And also linking in with local authorities I think is really important. 

So, do you think that you will improve your connection to the Fusion programme in the future?

Yes, I think so. Particularly working with local authorities would be really beneficial and enabling perhaps, through the Gwanwyn grants scheme for the festival, local authorities to work with, maybe, arts organisations that they aren't already working with. So, as a Wales-wide organisation, we have an opportunity there to connect people.

Because evidence has shown that various people have pointed out that senior managers within the local authorities don't seem to grasp the benefit of the Fusion project. So, would you say that that is a correct analysis, really?

I wouldn't say that I could comment on that from my perspective, but when I have been to Fusion meetings in the past, in other roles, there have always been a mix of people in the room, and I think that's always been a benefit.

Thank you. Valerie, have you got anything to add?

Simply that that just shows the importance of evaluation and representing hard and soft data that's directly relevant to a local community back to the council to evidence the effectiveness of the programme. So, it's about closing that evaluation loop.

Okay. So, funding is often described as being a barrier to Fusion achieving its full potential. It has in 2018-19 a budget of £287,000, which is quite small, really, when you think of what it is trying to accomplish. So, I wonder if you could tell me: does more funding mean more opportunities for various people?

Obviously, we know you don't directly deal with the finances of Fusion, but if you have an opinion from seeing it from the outside, then.

Yes, do you have an opinion on more achieving more, then, basically?

From our experience, and from what's been fed back to us in the past, I think it's about not just more money, because that's always going to—. I think it would always provide more opportunities, but I think it's about giving people the skills that they need to access those funds, and about making application processes as simple as possible. One thing we've talked to the Age Friendly Culture Network about is how we can support smaller organisations, grass-roots organisations, to really drill down into the evidence that they have, and making sure they know what they need to put in place at the beginning of a project to fully monitor and evaluate it, so that what they're giving back is what the funders need. So, I think it's not just about extra funds; I think it's about making sure that people know how to access them and have the skills to access them as well.

And there are other barriers to involvement and participation in the arts, as there are to anything else. The built environment is a big concern of ours. So, if someone wants to get out and take part in a workshop or go to a performance, affordability of the bus fare is one thing, the existence of a bus service is another thing—broken pavement, street clutter, lack of places to sit down and a lack of public loos all make the journey from home to the venue difficult or impossible for people, and those are real barriers.

So, the infrastructure, you're saying, really needs improvement, which would help the project. So, if you had any ideas on how to improve the project and its delivery, what would they be, excluding what you've just said, really?

Well, I haven't had any direct engagement with Fusion or—

No, looking from the outside in.

Looking from the outside—.

You don't have to answer if you don't feel you have the—.

Yes, you don't have to answer anything, it's just—.

I mean, beyond the universal things that would apply to any kind of engagement, the most important thing, when designing any kind of programme, is to engage the people you're targeting in the first place, so that they set the agenda for that engagement and that everything flows from that, really.

I'd agree with that, and I think ensuring that there's more universal engagement from the local authorities, I think, in the programme, yes, would be quite good.

Thank you.

Rhianon Passmore.

In that regard, your engagement with local authorities—obviously they've come under a lot of challenges in terms of the austerity cuts to Wales. Many local authorities are just cutting—virtually all are cutting non-statutory services. So, that obviously includes arts development teams—they do remain in some part—and the whole issue around how much capacity they've got around regeneration is a big discussion point. So, with your engagement with that local authority portfolio, then, with the range of things that they used to deliver, it's often the case that some of the arts centres that you're talking about that are under local authority ownership are not going to be there in the future, or they may become a public asset in some other way. So, how do you see your role in terms of this very important work in the future, with regard to reaching out with this very important arts and culture strand to your work?

It will be a matter of taking the evidence that comes out of the evaluations of the programmes and then designing engagement with local authorities and with Welsh Government to present the issues that are evidenced from that evaluation and to see where we can go with them.

So, in that regard—I don't want to put words into your mouth—do you feel that the arts and culture projects that you've talked about, the ukulele project et cetera, et cetera—? Do you feel that those have been evaluated to be of worth to this particular age group, in terms of all of the points that you've made earlier?

Absolutely, I think so, yes. In terms of local authorities, I think it's about ensuring that local authorities recognise the importance of cultural value: libraries, for example, as an asset that needs to be protected for the benefit, particularly, of older people. From the work that we've found through engagement work as well as through the arts and culture work that we do—. I've sat in meetings around the Reading Friends programme that's currently running out of Conwy library, and the real importance of the library to the wider community. So, I think it's about making sure that those projects and the evidence of those projects are being fed back. 

So, I suppose my question, to be more succinct, really, is that with the loss, potentially, of that capacity around local authorities to engage in this sector, do you feel that you are in the right place to pick up some of that work, and therefore have you got enough capacity to do that?

Capacity is always an issue and we are a smaller organisation now than we used to be, so—

Sorry, why is that?

We had a restructure and a redundancy programme a couple of years ago now. So, we have a smaller head office at Age Cymru than we used to. We've been hit by austerity the same as everyone else. But capacity's always an issue because there's always more you could do if you had more capacity. So, that's never going to go away; it's a matter of maximising what you have.

Alongside our arts and culture programme, we've also been running a survey—online and hard copy and in person—of people, asking them 10 questions to rate their local communities on 10 factors like public transport, local infrastructure, availability of public toilets, availability of meeting places like libraries and cultural venues, and we've just gone over the 1,000 mark in our returns on that questionnaire, and we are in the process of analysing that data, and some themes are starting to emerge. So, as well as the evidence that comes out of our arts and culture programme, we will have that general survey data and we will be using that to influence at local and national level over the coming year. We're just in those discussions now. 

The general survey—. The survey that we have just closed we did about three years ago. So, one of the things we're going to do is do some comparators between what people were saying three years ago and what they're saying now. In terms of the arts programme, I guess our Gwanwyn festival is just coming up, isn't it? So, that may be something that emerges through that.

I just wanted to try and understand, if there was a day centre in x area that provided x provision, what that would look like now if that—what that community would look like now if that day centre's closed and whether the opportunity's moved somewhere else or whether it just does not exist anymore. 

I would say that we have seen fewer applications coming in for the Gwanwyn festival and we'll be looking to do some analysis around why that has happened, but, anecdotally, I would say that there are fewer applications from arts and culture organisations looking to run activities in day centres, and I do wonder if that has had an impact. We have found that event organisers are utilising every possible community asset they can find. We've got activities happening in chapels and libraries and village halls and schools, in fact, as well. But I would be interested to see—and I will have a look into it—whether the dwindling applications has anything to do with the closure of some community centres and day centres. 

We've found through the Age Alliance Wales focus groups, particularly with LGBTQ+ communities in north Wales in rural areas, that transport was the big issue, that people were perfectly capable of organising their own meet-ups in cafes and so on, but they couldn't get there, or, if they could get there, they couldn't get home at a reasonable hour because the bus services finished so early. So, the venues for them weren't such a problem; it was the transport.

Okay. David Melding. 

How does the age-friendly cultural network work? At what level does it work and how often does it meet?

At what level—. So, it started with the older people's commissioner's office, in their Ageing Well in Wales branch of the office, and National Museum Wales, and they were involved in a UK-wide programme looking at museums in particular as age-friendly cultural venues. They then invited us onto the table to be part of that network, as well as the Arts Council of Wales. So, currently, it is the network of the four of us. We are looking at the wider cultural networks, so we're trying to get some engagement with the sports sector as well, and we did a series of network and learning events across Wales last year, and that was really about bringing lots of different organisations, lots of different cultural people, together to look at what the barriers are and what can be done moving forward and what the people in that room felt like they needed to make their activities and their venues age-friendly. So, at the moment we're working on a three-year plan to look at our strategic aims. So, it's a very strategic level at the moment, but using the very little resource we have as a small network to maximise on the knowledge that exists within the organisation and the wider network to pull together toolkits and things like that and maybe start looking at a set of age-friendly standards that people could adhere to.

Looking at—let's take the museum sector: the national museum, but does it go down to local museums as well?

We've always invited local level organisations to those networking meetings, and they've been really well attended. I was only at two of them, so I can't speak for all of them, but I think we are producing a report on who came to those events and what the level of engagement was like, but, absolutely, it is about connecting not just with the national organisations but very much the community centres, the football clubs—ideally, that's where we want to get to—but the local museums as well.

So, things like the collections being opened up and taken to community centres, for instance—are there any practical outcomes at that level?

I haven't seen that myself, and I think my colleague Sharon Ford at the national museum would be the best person to speak to from a heritage and museums angle. I know full well that national museum have done a lot of work around intergenerational working. They have an intergenerational focus group. They've done some work around making Big Pit dementia-friendly, which has been really, really interesting work. But I think it's about using the learning that—the national organisations have the capacity to learn, and they have the resources to do more in terms of trying new things, for them to be able to pass the learning on to the smaller organisations and say, 'There are some really easy, low-cost, practical steps you can take to make your organisation age-friendly.'

And then I think we've all listened to Radio 4's—I can never remember what it's called—. 'The talking project' or whatever it is that you get at various times of the day, certainly on a Friday, which is when I listen to it, at 16:55. Can someone help me? What's it actually called? Anyway—social history is what I'm getting at. Has that increased? Are we talking to older people and recording their insights and adding them to local and national collections?

I believe that national museums are doing a lot of work around that at the moment, and particularly around particular things that they are developing in the museums—so, particular collections. So, I think they would be really well placed to discuss that, but through our cARTrefu projects in particular in care homes, a lot of our artists are really delving into people's histories, because our artists are able to work one to one with residents in care homes and really learn their life stories and find ways of artistically capturing them and presenting them as well.

At our consultative forum for older people, we have had a presentation a few months ago from—I think it's called 'the book of me' or something like that. It's a project in which—it's not a public-facing project. The products are meant to be a book capturing the essence and life experience and memories and priorities of a person in a care home with dementia, who may no longer be able to explain those things for themselves to the staff in the care home, so that staff and visitors to the care home can get an idea of who this person really is underneath the dementia and their own life story, basically. So, it's meant to be for their personal use and the use of people who love them and people who care for them. But then that is a very—creating your own life story like that is a very creative act, so I would see it very much as part of the spectrum of creative approaches. So, we have had a presentation at the consultative forum, and I will get the correct name and send it to the clerk so you know exactly which project I'm talking about. That opportunity then is disseminated through the networks of the older people who attend our consultative forum, and we publicise the availability of that project through our own newsletters and networks and so on.

It was The Listening Project. Have you looked it up, yet?

I don't have access to any internet, sorry.

No, I thought someone was on—.

We'll check it out, David, for you.

I think oral history is very important and it seems to me that we do a lot of work around recording things and preserving collections and looking at the BBC and other broadcasters at the moment and how that's preserved. But, actually, some of the most insightful work, I think, is done around oral history.

Finally, we've heard evidence that in terms of accessibility—say, the national museum, the millennium centre here—that perhaps more work needs to be done in mentoring and helping people through the experience, then, because it's quite a big thing to go to it for the first time perhaps and know what's going on. It's a vast space—how on earth do you start to engage with it? How would you—? I don't know what your experience is in terms of guided tours and the level that they're at and expertise, because, obviously, you're talking to people who have memory problems; it's going to be a different approach. But, at the moment, in the big cultural organisations, how do you think they deliver at that level?

I would say—I don't want to speak for any organisation in particular, but I know that some organisations are doing more work than others, because it depends on their strategic priorities. For some organisations, older people isn't a focus of their work, so they might not be looking into it. But I think that the Dementia Friends scheme has really helped—and the dementia-friendly scheme has really helped—organisations to recognise really simple steps that they could take, just in terms of front-of-house staff being more aware. So, all sorts of awareness-raising training with that kind of model, I think, can be really successful.

I think, as well, the toolkits that we're looking to develop with the age-friendly culture network could be a really easy way of disseminating information, because I think there are things that organisations can do that aren't massively costly. I think it would be really interesting for organisations to look at doing audits with older people and really engaging with them directly and saying, as a vast potential audience, 'What can we do to make getting here and being here easier for you and a pleasurable experience?'

Thank you.

Rhianon.

In that regard, very briefly, because we're running out of time, do you feel that Wales's publicly funded bodies—some of the top five having a vast majority of the Welsh arts council portfolio moneys—are doing enough to target those who may be in poverty and who may be of an older age group?

I think it is very difficult for all arts organisations, as well as the top-level organisations, to—

I'm specifically talking about the top level.

Yes. I think there is always more that can be done.

You mentioned that some are doing more than others, and I don't want you to name names, but do you feel that in terms of the tight austerity hold that we have here in Wales—in terms of the lack of money that we've got as a nation—do you feel, therefore, that that mandate should be underscored in terms of that public funding aspect to their work?

I think there is already quite a lot of pressure on them, possibly through arts council funding as well, to respond to protected characteristics at all levels. I think it's very hard for them to respond to every single one of them and make sure they're addressing social isolation and poverty.

So, you don't see it as part and parcel of what needs to be—?

I think it is important, but I can see the difficulties that they have in being able to do it.

Okay. Thank you.

Finally, finally, I just wanted to ask—. You mentioned the surveys at the beginning, and you said one of them was to do with the BME community, I was just wondering if that had any cultural analysis also. Because I was just wondering if you'd done any intercultural events in relation to—be it Indian music or music from other parts of the world—so that different communities of what's defined as older people can get together and share those experiences so that we're not working in silos of communities as well. I just wondered whether you'd thought about that.

Okay. The thing I mentioned with black and ethnic minority communities was our Age Alliance Wales focus groups, and we were asking them a range of questions, one of which was about loneliness and social isolation. I was at some of those meetings, I wasn't at all of them, and my colleague is writing up the evidence now. It's almost ready, so I would need to go back and have a look at whether there were any arts and cultural angles to the first-hand evidence we got there. But I would be happy to do that. Kelly, in terms of the programmes?

We're really trying to encourage a wide range of organisations to apply for the Gwanwyn grant scheme. We've had success working with an organisation called Gentle/Radical over the last couple of years, and they do film screenings for BAME audiences specifically, and they're working in Cardiff at the moment. I would love to see organisations like Gentle/Radical working across Wales. Through funding from us they're really able to look at film screenings and films that would be of interest to older people, and start to challenge, and have really interesting, challenging conversations around those. So, again, it's working in partnership with organisations that already have the trust of those different communities, so that we can start to build trust with them as well, and they start to engage with Age Cymru directly as an organisation as well. So, it's a slow approach of building connections.

And another really important thing is to challenge cultural stereotypes of older people in the media, and an arts and culture programme is a very good place to start with that.

That's another inquiry altogether, I'm sure. But thank you for coming in to give evidence.