Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu - Y Bumed Senedd
Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee - Fifth Senedd
24/10/2018Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol
Committee Members in Attendance
| Bethan Sayed | Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor |
| Committee Chair | |
| Caroline Jones | |
| Dai Lloyd | yn dirprwyo ar ran Siân Gwenllian |
| substitute for Siân Gwenllian | |
| David Melding | |
| Mick Antoniw | |
| Rhianon Passmore | |
Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol
Others in Attendance
| Bethan Williams | Grŵp Hawl, Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg |
| Rights Group, Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg | |
| Heini Gruffydd | Cadeirydd, Dyfodol i'r Iaith |
| Chair, Dyfodol i'r Iaith | |
| Osian Rhys | Cadeirydd, Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg |
| Chair, Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg |
Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol
Senedd Officials in Attendance
| Adam Vaughan | Dirprwy Glerc |
| Deputy Clerk | |
| Gwyn Griffiths | Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol |
| Legal Adviser | |
| Osian Bowyer | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher | |
| Steve George | Clerc |
| Clerk |
Cynnwys
Contents
Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.
The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:32.
The meeting began at 09:32.
Diolch a chroeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu y bore yma. Eitem 1: cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. A oes gan unrhyw Aelod rhywbeth i'w ddatgan yma heddiw? Na. Bydd Dai Lloyd yn dirprwyo dros Siân Gwenllian yn y cyfarfod yma, ac mae Jane Hutt wedi ymddiheuro, a Jenny Rathbone, a bydd Rhianon Passmore yn hwyr.
Thank you and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee this morning. Item 1: introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. Do any Members have any declarations of interest this morning? No. Dai Lloyd will be here as a substitute for Siân Gwenllian this morning, and Jane Hutt has given her apologies, and Jenny Rathbone as well, and Rhianon Passmore will be arriving later on.
Symud ymlaen at eitem 2, cefnogi a hybu'r Gymraeg: ymchwiliad i'r cyd-destun deddfwriaethol, polisi ac ehangach, a sesiwn dystiolaeth 4. Croeso yma heddiw i Heini Gruffydd, cadeirydd Dyfodol i'r Iaith; Osian Rhys, cadeirydd Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg; ac wedyn Bethan Williams, sef grŵp hawl Cymdeithas yr Iaith. Mae'r Athro Diarmait Mac Giolla Chriost, Ysgol y Gymraeg, Prifysgol Caerdydd, wedi ymddiheuro gan ei fod e'n sâl heddiw, felly gobeithio y byddwn ni'n gallu aildrefnu ei sesiwn e. Byddwch chi efallai'n gwybod ein bod ni'n gofyn cwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol, ac felly bydd Aelodau'r Cynulliad yn gofyn cwestiynau yn hynny o beth. Felly, byddaf i'n cychwyn, os yw hynny'n iawn gyda chi. So, jest rhoi cyd-destun, efallai, am yr hyn rydym ni'n ei drafod yma heddiw, sylwadau ynghylch sut mae'r Mesur wedi datblygu ers Deddf yr Iaith Gymraeg 1993 a beth yw'ch sylwadau cyffredinol yn hynny o beth. Croeso i rywun ddechrau. Nid oes dim pwysau. Osian.
Moving on to item 2, supporting and promoting the Welsh language: an inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context, and this is evidence session 4. Welcome today to Heini Gruffydd, chair of Dyfodol i'r Iaith; Osian Rhys, chair of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg; and then Bethan Williams from the rights group of Cymdeithas yr Iaith. Professor Diarmait Mac Giolla Chriost, from the School of Welsh, Cardiff University, has sent his apologies because he is poorly today, so we hope to be able to rearrange his evidence session. You will possibly know that we have themed questions, and Members will ask their questions on those themes. I'll start, if that's okay with you. And just to give the context, perhaps, about what we're talking about today, I'd like to ask about your views on how the Measure has developed from the Welsh Language Act 1993 and what your general comments are in that regard. I welcome anyone to start. There's no pressure. Osian.
Iawn. Wel, rydw i'n meddwl bod Mesur y Gymraeg (Cymru) 2011 wedi rhoi safonau i ni sy'n gallu cael eu gorfodi. So, mae hynny'n gam mawr ymlaen. Mae'n ddyddiau cynnar, ond rydym ni'n barod yn gweld gwelliant ar lawr gwlad. Mae'r Mesur hefyd yn rhoi statws swyddogol i ni, sy'n bwysig iawn yn symbolaidd, rydw i'n meddwl. Mae'n llawer llai biwrocrataidd na'r hen Ddeddf 1993, lle roedd pawb yn paratoi cynllun fel roedden nhw'n dymuno, mewn ffordd, ac nid oedd dim ffordd i bobl ar lawr gwlad i wybod beth oedd yng nghynllun gwahanol gyrff. Rydym ni'n gweld yn barod fod y cynnig rhagweithiol yn dechrau dod lle mae cyrff yn cynnig darparu rhywbeth drwy'r Gymraeg yn hytrach na bod pobl yn gorfod gofyn amdano fe. Rydw i'n meddwl bod hynny'n ddechrau da.
Okay. Well, I think that the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 has given us the standards that may be imposed, and that's a great step forward. It's early days, but we're already seeing an improvement on the ground, as it were. The Measure also gives us official status, which is symbolically very important, I think. It's much less bureaucratic than the former 1993 Act, where everybody had to prepare a scheme according to their own wishes, in a way, and it was impossible for the general public to know what was contained in the schemes of the various organisations. We are already seeing a proactive offer coming through, where organisations are offering things through the medium of Welsh rather than people having to request them.
Bethan.
Bethan.
Ie, byddwn i'n cytuno o ran statws. Hynny yw, efallai, un o'r pethau mwyaf rydym ni wedi gweld drwy Fil y Gymraeg. Roedd Osian yn cyfeirio fanna at y safonau; maen nhw'n eithaf newydd ond rydym ni'n bendant wedi gweld gwelliant o ran defnydd. Rwy’n gwybod o brofiad: Cyngor Sir Benfro, maen nhw’n gorfod gwneud tipyn mwy nawr, lle nad oedden nhw cyn y safonau. Felly, ie, maen nhw wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth, ond mae lle i fynd o hyd, wrth gwrs. Efallai bod modd datblygu mwy ar y Mesur sydd gennym ni.
Yes, I would agree in terms of the status. That is perhaps one of the biggest things that we've seen through the Welsh language Bill. Osian was referring there to the standards; they're relatively new, but we certainly have seen an improvement in terms of the use of the language. I know from experience with Pembrokeshire Council, they do have to do a great deal more now, whereas they didn't have to before the standards were imposed. So, it has made a difference, but there is a way to go yet. Perhaps we could develop the Measure more.
Diolch am y cyfle i ddod atoch chi, rwy’n gwerthfawrogi’n fawr fod hwn yn bwnc trafod. Buaswn i’n cytuno yn y lle cyntaf ei fod yn dda bod y Gymraeg yn iaith swyddogol—hen bryd gwneud. Roedd hynny wedi digwydd yng Ngwlad y Basgiaid yn eu Deddf iaith gyntaf nhw, hefyd yng Nghatalwnia, ac erbyn 2011, fe wnaethom ni hynny yng Nghymru, sydd yn beth cadarnhaol.
Mae’n dda bod safonau ar gael. Mae yna ddau beth sydd eisiau edrych arnyn nhw fan hyn, rydw i’n meddwl. Yn y lle cyntaf, mae llawer o’r pwyslais ar hawliau unigolion, sydd yn beth da, wrth gwrs, ond yn bwysicach, rydw i’n meddwl, yw sut mae’r safonau’n newid tirwedd ieithyddol Cymru. Hynny yw, mae yna ddyletswyddau ar gyrff i ddarparu trwy’r Gymraeg yn gyfartal â’r Saesneg ac nid yn llai ffafriol na’r Saesneg, felly, mae golwg y wlad a’r hyn y mae pobl yn ei weld o ddydd i ddydd—mae Cymru’n dod yn wlad fwy dwyieithog yn sgil hynny.
Y gwendid, buaswn i’n meddwl, yw hyn: mae cymdeithasegwyr iaith, ers tro, wedi dweud mai’r peth hawdd i’w wneud yw cael statws i iaith—dyna’r brwydrau hawdd. Hynny yw, rŷch chi’n gallu ennill statws, rŷch chi’n gallu ennill sianel deledu, rŷch chi’n gallu ennill arwyddion ffyrdd. Ni fuaswn i’n dweud bod y rheini, yng Nghymru, wedi bod yn frwydrau hawdd—hynny yw, mae yna garcharu wedi digwydd, mae yna dorcyfraith wedi digwydd—ond o leiaf rŷm ni wedi ennill pethau penodol sydd yn ymwneud â statws, ac mae’r brwydrau hynny’n ennilladwy. Ond, brwydrau y byddai cymdeithasegwyr iaith yn eu galw’n frwydrau lefel uchel yw’r rheini. Hynny yw, defnydd o’r iaith ar lefel uchel, tra bod iaith a ffyniant iaith yn dibynnu llawer yn fwy ar y lefel isel, sef defnydd o iaith mewn cymdeithas, bywyd pob dydd—bod yna le i’r Gymraeg ffynnu, bod yna ofod i’r Gymraeg yn y gymuned, yn y gymdeithas, ac ysgolion Cymraeg. Mae’n rhaid cael llawer mwy o bwyslais, rydw i’n meddwl, ar hynny. Er bod y Ddeddf wedi rhoi'r hawl i Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg hyrwyddo a hybu’r Gymraeg—ac mae’r termau hynny’n digwydd dwy, dair, pedair gwaith yn y Ddeddf: 'hybu a hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg'—rydw i’n ofni bod y modd y mae’r comisiynydd wedi gweithredu wedi rhoi’r pwyslais yn fwyaf, neu’n bennaf o leiaf, ar y rheoleiddio ac ar faterion statws, ac nid ar faterion hybu a hyrwyddo.
Dyna pam rydw i’n credu bod y defnydd a wnaed o’r Ddeddf, neu’r Ddeddf ei hun, wedi bod yn rhy gyfyng ac rydw i’n credu bod angen inni symud ymlaen at yr hyn sydd mewn gwledydd eraill. Hynny yw, os ŷch chi’n mynd i Wlad y Basgiaid a Chatalwnia, mae ganddyn nhw gyrff sylweddol o dan y Llywodraeth sydd yn gyfrifol am gynllunio’r iaith a chynllunio adfywiad iaith yn sylweddol, ac rwy’n credu bod yn rhaid inni symud i’r cyfeiriad yna a chael corff, naill ai dan y Llywodraeth neu led braich o’r Llywodraeth, sydd yn gallu gosod yr agenda iaith. Byddai angen i’r corff yna, fel sydd yn digwydd yn y gwledydd eraill hynny, ddatblygu arbenigedd parhaol a bod gennych chi gynllunwyr iaith parhaol a bod y rheini wedyn yn llunio rhaglen gyflawn yn ymwneud â phob agwedd ar fywyd. Fe allaf siarad yn fwy os ŷch chi'n moyn yn nes ymlaen, ond dyna rai o’r cryfderau a rhai o’r gwendidau.
Thank you for the opportunity to come to meet with you, I very much appreciate this being one of your issues for discussion. I would agree, in the first place, that it's a good thing that the Welsh language is now an official language—it's high time. This happened in the Basque Country in their first language Act, and also in Catalunya, and by 2011 we got that in Wales, which is a positive.
It's a good thing that the standards exist, but there are two things that we need to look at here. In the first place, much of the emphasis is on individuals' rights, which is a good thing, but more important, in my view, is how these standards change the linguistic landscape of Wales. That is, bodies are duty bound to make provision through the medium of Welsh on an equal basis with English, or at any rate, not any less favourably than English, and so, visibly, and what people see on a daily basis—Wales is becoming more of a bilingual country as a result.
But the weakness, I would imagine, is this: sociolinguists, for some time, have said that the simple thing to do is to gain status for a language—those are the easy battles. That is, you can win on status, you can get a television channel and you can win on road signs. I wouldn't say that they were easy battles in Wales because people have gone to prison and broken the law, but we have won specifics as regards status, and those battles are winnable. But, these battles are what sociolinguists would call high level. That is, the use of language on a high level, while language and its ability to thrive depend much more on the lower level, namely the use of the language in the community and in everyday life—that there is space for Welsh to thrive, that there is space for the language in the community, in society, and Welsh schools. We should have much greater emphasis on that. Although the Measure gave the Welsh Language Commissioner the right to promote and facilitate the Welsh language—and those terms are included about three or four times in the Measure: 'promoting and facilitating the language'—I'm afraid that the way that the commissioner has operated has placed heavier emphasis on the regulation and on status issues and not on promotion and facilitation issues.
That is why I believe that the use made of the Measure, or the Measure itself, was too limited and we need to move on to what other countries have. For example, if you go to the Basque Country and Catalunya, they have significant organisations under the Government that are responsible for language planning and language regeneration in a significant manner, and I believe that we need to move in that direction and have a body, either under the Government or at arm's length from the Government, that can set the language agenda. That body, as happens in other countries, would have to develop continuous expertise and you'd have language planners that are well established and that provide a programme concerning every aspect of life. I could talk more later on, but those are some of the strengths and weaknesses.
Mae rhai ohonyn nhw’n syniadau digon teilwng, ond nid ydym ni wedi clywed o du’r Llywodraeth a fyddai yna fwy o arian yn dod at y maes yma pe byddai yna newidiadau deddfwriaethol. Felly, o’r hyn sydd wedi digwydd yn barod o ran hawliau, o ran hwyluso’r defnydd, sut ydych chi’n credu bod beth sydd wedi digwydd o dan y Mesur yma wedi llwyddo neu ddim wedi llwyddo yn hynny o beth?
Well, some of those ideas are worthy enough, but we haven't heard whether there will be more funding coming into this area from the Government if there were legislative changes. So, from what's already happened in terms of rights, in terms of facilitating the use of the language, how do you believe that what's happened under this Measure has succeeded or not in that regard?
Rydw i’n meddwl ei bod hi’n glir iawn, os ydych chi’n edrych ar adroddiadau sicrwydd y comisiynydd, fod yna newid yn digwydd ar lawr gwlad yn barod, ac rydym ni mewn dyddiau cynnar iawn o ran y safonau. O ran y pwynt yr oedd Heini’n ei wneud ynghylch y diffyg hybu, rydym ni wedi bod yn galw ers blynyddoedd am fwy o hybu ac am gorff penodol i hybu, ond rydw i’n meddwl bod drysu hynny gyda’r Mesur yma a beth y mae’r Mesur i fod i'w gyflawni yn beryglus. Rydym ni’n falch iawn ein bod ni wedi symud ymlaen o ddyddiau Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg—corff a oedd yn ceisio rheoleiddio'r Gymraeg a hybu ar yr un pryd. Roeddem ni'n gweld o hyd beth oedd yn digwydd gyda'r tensiwn yna rhwng corff a oedd yn ceisio bod yn blismon gyda sefydliadau, sy'n waith pwysig iawn, ar yr un pryd â'r gwaith mwy meddal—balŵns i drio annog pobl i siarad Cymraeg gyda'u plant. Beth sy'n digwydd wedyn yw bod y gwaith rheoleiddio yna, sydd yn cael effaith hollbwysig yn ein sefydliadau ni, yn cael ei esgeuluso. Felly, rydw i'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig pan ŷm ni'n edrych ar y gwaith hybu sydd angen ei wneud ein bod ni ddim yn peryglu beth sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd yn y Mesur, sef cychwyn ar hawliau pobl, cychwyn ar sicrwydd eich bod chi yn mynd i gael gwasanaeth Cymraeg gan ein sefydliadau cyhoeddus ni, a sefydliadau preifat hefyd pan ddaw hynny, sydd hefyd yn rhan o'r Mesur. Rydym ni eisiau gweld y Mesur fel y mae e yn cael ei weithredu'n llawn.
I think it's very clear, if you look at the assurance statements from the commissioner, that there is a definite change taking place at a local level already, and it's early days as regards the standards, of course. But on the point Heini made on the lack of promotion, we have been calling for many years for greater promotion and a body to do that, but I think confusing that with this Measure and what this Measure is supposed to accomplish is dangerous. We are very pleased that we have moved on from the days of the Welsh Language Board—a body that was trying to regulate the Welsh language and promote at the same time. We always saw what happened with that tension, because they were trying to police the organisations, which is very important work, together with the softer side of it—the balloons to encourage people to speak Welsh with their children. So, what then happened was that the regulatory element, which does have a vital impact on our organisations, was actually neglected. So, it's important when we look at the promotional work that needs doing that we don't endanger what we already have in the Measure, namely starting to give people rights, and also beginning to give them an assurance that they will get a Welsh language service from our public organisations, and our private organisations when that comes through, which is also a part of the Measure. We would like to see the Measure being implemented in full.
Unrhyw beth i'w ychwanegu? Nid oes rhaid i chi ymateb i bopeth.
Anything to add? You don't have to respond to every question.
O ran safonau'r Mesur, maen nhw wedi ei gwneud yn haws i bobl gwyno, achos rŷch chi'n cwyno yn syth at y comisiynydd o dan y safonau. Mae hynny'n lot haws i ddefnyddwyr, ble gyda bwrdd yr iaith roedd gofyn ichi gysylltu gyda'r corff a oedd ddim wedi darparu gwasanaeth neu beth bynnag. So, o safbwynt defnyddiwr, mae fe'n ffafrio'r defnyddwyr tipyn mwy. Hynny yw, mae lle i fynd a gellid gwella ar hynny, ond mae fe'n bendant yn gam ymlaen.
O ran y safonau hefyd, eto, gellid ymestyn y rheini. Mae'r comisiynydd wedi cyflwyno adroddiad ymchwil i'r Llywodraeth—mae yna sawl un wedi cael ei wneud: un ar gymdeithasau tai wedi ei gyflwyno i'r Llywodraeth ym mis Hydref 2015; dŵr; post—diwedd 2015; bysiau, trenau a rheilffyrdd—diwedd 2016; nwy a thrydan—2017; ond eto, nid oes dim cynnydd. Nid yw'r Llywodraeth wedi gwneud unrhyw beth amdanyn nhw, er bod Aelodau Cynulliad wedi pasio cynnig diwedd Hydref llynedd i alw ar y Llywodraeth i ymestyn y safonau i weddill y sector preifat. Felly, mae hynny hyd yn oed yn gam yn bellach byth, ac rŷm ni heb gyrraedd eithaf beth rŷm ni'n gallu ei wneud o ran y Mesur sydd gyda ni.
In terms of the standards of the Measure, they have made it easier for people to make complaints, because you complain directly to the commissioner under the standards. That's much easier for users, whereas with the language board you had to get in touch with the body that hadn't provided the service, or whatever. So, from the point of view of the user, it does favour the user much more. There is a way to go to improve on that, but it certainly is a step forward.
In terms of the standards, again, these could be extended. The commissioner has already put forward a research report to the Government—many have been done: with regard to housing associations in October 2015; water; postal services at the end of 2015; buses, trains and railways at the end of 2016; gas and electricity in 2017; and yet there's been no progress. The Government hasn't done anything about these, even though Assembly Members had agreed a motion at the end of October last year to extends the standards to the remainder of the private sector. So, that is a further step again that we need to take, and we haven't reached the limits of what we can do in terms of the Measure that we already have.
Reit, rŷm ni'n symud ymlaen felly—
Right, we move on—
A gaf i ateb y cwestiwn, os gwelwch yn dda? O ran yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd yn y safonau a pha mor llwyddiannus ydynt, rydw i yn meddwl eu bod nhw wedi mynd ar ôl y defnydd lefel uchel gweladwy, ond maen nhw'n ddiffygiol iawn o ran estyn y defnydd o'r Gymraeg y tu ôl i'r ddesg yn y gwaith. Mae yna ddarpariaeth i'r cyhoedd. Os ydych chi yn benderfynol o fod eisiau siarad Cymraeg, lleiafrif bach sydd yn mentro ac sydd â'r hyder i wneud hynny. Ond nid oes sylw yn cael ei roi i iaith y gweithle. Os ydych chi'n mynd i rai gwledydd eraill, fel Gwlad y Basgiaid, mae'n rhaid i bob swyddog cyhoeddus fod yn siarad Basgeg. Mae'n rhaid yn ne Tyrol i'r gwasanaeth cyhoeddus fod â nifer o siaradwyr y gwahanol ieithoedd sydd gyda nhw. Hynny yw, os oes yna 20 y cant yn siarad Almaeneg mewn un ardal, mae'n rhaid i 20 y cant o'r plismyn a'r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus siarad yr iaith. Nid wyf yn credu bod y safonau sydd gyda ni yn dod yn agos, neu ddim yn sôn am y math yna o weithredu. Felly, mae'n rhaid gwahaniaethu rhwng y defnydd gweladwy, neu'r hyn rydych yn ei gynnig i rywun sydd am gael hawliau—popeth yn dda, ond nid ydych chi'n dechrau taclo prif fywyd pobl gyffredin.
Rydym wedi clywed am y cwyno. Rwy'n ofni bod yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd o dan y safonau wedi rhoi'r pwyslais ar gwyno. Yn fy marn i, mae'r holl bwyslais yna yn un cwbl negyddol. Rydych yn gwneud i bobl feddwl eu bod nhw'n cael cam a bod rhaid cwyno. Wedyn, wel, popeth yn dda, ond mae enghreifftiau fel hyn yn digwydd. Roedd un cyfaill i mi yn Abertawe—
May I answer that question, please? As regards what's happened in the standards and how successful they have been, I think they've gone after the visible high-level element, but they are very deficient as regards extending the use of the Welsh language behind the reception desk in an organisation. There is provision for the public. If you are determined to speak Welsh, very few people dare and have the confidence to do that. But there is no attention given to the language of the workplace. If you go to the Basque Country, every public official has to be able to speak Basque. In south Tyrol, all the public services have to have a number of speakers of the various languages that they have. If 20 per cent speak German in that area, then 20 per cent of the police officers and the public services have to speak the language. I don't believe that the standards that we have come close to that, or mention that kind of action. So, it's necessary to differentiate between the visible use, or what you offer someone who wants to have rights—all well and good, but you're not beginning to tackle the daily lives of ordinary people.
We've heard about the complaints. I'm afraid that what has occurred under the standards has put the emphasis on lodging complaints. In my view, that whole emphasis is completely negative. You're making people believe that they're being done down, and therefore they need to complain. All well and good, but there are examples like this: a friend of mine in Swansea—
Sori i dorri ar draws, ond rŷm ni yn dod ymlaen at safonau. Fel y gwnes i ddweud ar y dechrau, mae themâu gwahanol, felly fe fyddwn ni yn cael y cwestiynau yma ynglŷn â chymhlethdod neu ddim. So, os ydym yn gallu symud ymlaen at hybu'r iaith, bydd Rhianon yn dod mewn nawr.
I'm sorry to interrupt, but we will be coming to discuss standards. As I said at the beginning, there are different themes, so we will be getting questions on the complexities or not of this later on. So, if we can move on to the promotion of the Welsh language, Rhianon will come in now.
Thank you. Diolch, Chair. The commissioner believes, from the evidence that has been sent, that the provisions within the Measure are broad enough to enable promotion and facilitation, and it is more a matter around resources. Is there any shared view around that, or is that not the position of you as witnesses in this committee?
Ie. Buaswn i'n dweud nad oes yna ddim byd i atal y comisiynydd rhag hybu'r Gymraeg. Nid oes yna ddim byd i atal y Llywodraeth rhag hybu'r Gymraeg ar hyn o bryd. Pan ddaeth bwrdd yr iaith i ben, roedd e'n gwneud dau brif ddyletswydd, sef rheoleiddio'r Gymraeg a hybu'r Gymraeg. Cafodd bwrdd yr iaith ei rannu'n ddwy. Aeth y gwaith rheoleiddio a'r staff rheoleiddio a'r adnoddau, tua thraean o'r adnoddau, i'r comisiynydd, ac aeth y gweddill i gyd i mewn i'r Llywodraeth. Felly, tra bod dim byd i atal y comisiynydd rhag hybu'r Gymraeg, rwy'n meddwl yr oedd e'n eglur o'r penderfyniad gwleidyddol a gafodd ei wneud gan Lywodraeth Cymru'n Un mai'r disgwyl oedd y byddai'r Llywodraeth yn hybu'r Gymraeg, a dyna le mae'r adnoddau wedi mynd i wneud hynny.
Ac, felly, o'n safbwynt ni—a derbyn, wrth gwrs, nad yw system y Mesur a'r safonau yn berffaith—mae'n edrych fel, wrth i'r split yna ddigwydd, bod y gwaith ar reoleiddio'r Gymraeg wedi gweld gwelliant sylweddol, a lle mae yna wendid yw'r gwaith hybu, sef y gwaith sydd i fod i ddigwydd o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru. Dyna fyddai'n prif bwynt ni am hynny.
Yes. I would say that there is nothing to prevent the commissioner from promoting the Welsh language. There's nothing to prevent the Government from promoting the Welsh language at the present time. When the language board came to an end, it carried out two main functions, namely regulating the Welsh language and promoting the Welsh language. The board was divided in two. The regulatory work and the staff and the resources for that, around a third of the resources, went to the commissioner, and the remainder all went into the Government. And, so, whilst there's nothing to prevent the commissioner from promoting the use of the Welsh language, I think it was clear from the decision made by the One Wales Government that the expectation was that the Government would promote the Welsh language, and that's where the resources have gone to do that.
And, so, from our point of view, accepting that the system of the Measure and the standards regime aren't perfect, it appears from that split that the work on regulating the Welsh language has seen a great deal of improvement, and where the weakness is is in terms of the promotional work, which is the work that's meant to happen within the Welsh Government. That's what our main point would be on this.
Ac rwy'n meddwl y gwnaeth Osian gyfeirio'n gynharach at greu corff newydd. Rydym ni wedi galw ers dros 10 mlynedd am gorff newydd sy'n gyfrifol yn benodol am hybu'r Gymraeg, a byddai modd creu corff a fyddai'n gwneud y gwaith yma heb unrhyw Ddeddf. Rydym ni'n deall, wrth gwrs, fod adnoddau’n brin, arian yn brin. So, yn ddelfrydol, byddai rhywbeth ychwanegol ar wahân. Dyna fyddai'n ddelfrydol. Ond, yn methu hynny, byddem ni'n gweld angen uwchraddio uned y Gymraeg o fewn y Llywodraeth, achos nid oes llawer o statws gyda'r adran yna ar hyn o bryd, ac mae'r cyllid yn fach iawn, iawn. Felly, yn y fan lleiaf, gellid uwchraddio'r uned yna er mwyn gwneud y gwaith hybu.
And I think that Osian referred earlier to the creation of a new body. We have been calling for over 10 years for a new body that would be primarily responsible for promoting the Welsh language, and it would be possible to create a body to do that work without having legislation. We understand that resources are scarce, money is scarce. Ideally, it would be an additional, separate entity, but failing that, we would see the need to upgrade the Welsh language unit within Government because it doesn't have very much status at present, and its funding is extremely small. And, so, at the very least, that unit could be upgraded in order to do the promotion work.
Heini.
Mae'r ddeddf yn gymysglyd iawn ynglŷn â phwy sydd i fod i hybu a hyrwyddo. Yn benodol iawn, mae hi'n dweud bod angen i'r comisiynydd hybu a hyrwyddo, ac rydw i'n gwybod bod gwaith da wedi digwydd gyda siopau ac yn y blaen, ond hefyd, roedd y Llywodraeth yn gyfrifol am hybu a hyrwyddo. Felly, rydych chi wedi cael pethau'n digwydd, fel bod yna fathodyn defnyddio'r Gymraeg gan y comisiynydd a bathodyn arall defnyddio'r Gymraeg gan y Llywodraeth. Felly, rydych chi wedi cael cymysgwch llwyr am bum mlynedd, ac rwy'n credu ein bod ni wedi colli bron i saith mlynedd o waith hyrwyddo effeithiol yn sgil hynny. Felly, mae'n rhaid inni gael eglurder.
Yn bendant iawn, mae yna rai pethau y byddai corff allanol, lled braich, yn gallu eu gwneud nad yw gweision sifil yn gallu eu gwneud, na'r comisiynydd. Os yw'r comisiynydd yn rheoleiddio, byddai hynny'n wych iawn, ond mae gyda chi bethau yn codi fel gyda chynllunio tai, gyda sawl maes arall, ac mi ddylai fod statws ymgynghorai statudol gan gorff allanol. Rydych chi'n cael hynny'n digwydd ym maes datblygu gwledig, neu ym maes cynllunio. Os ydych chi am gael barn am godi ystâd o dai, rydych chi'n mynd at gorff allanol i wybod os oes yna berygl i adar, neu oes yna berygl o ran dŵr neu goed, ond iaith, dim o gwbl. Felly, nid oes lle statudol gan yr iaith Gymraeg mewn ymgynghoriadau o'r math yna. Dyna pam mae'n gwbl, gwbl hanfodol bod yna gorff allanol, lled braich, yn digwydd ac yn cael ei sefydlu, sydd yn hyrwyddo a hybu ar y naill law, sydd yn cydlynu gweithgareddau ar y llall, ond, hefyd, sydd yn ymgynghorai statudol ar gyfer materion felly.
The Measure is confused about who is meant to promote and facilitate. Specifically, it says that the commissioner has to promote and facilitate, and I know that good work has been done with shops and so on, but, also, the Government too was responsible for facilitation and promotion. And, so, you've had things happening—you've seen the badge for using the Welsh language that the commissioner has put forward, and another, entirely different, badge from the Government. So, there's been confusion for five years, and I think we've missed out on almost seven years of effective work as a result. So, we need that clarity.
And, certainly, there are some things that an external body, at an arm's length, could do that civil servants can't do, and that the commissioner can't do. If the commissioner is in charge of regulation, that would be excellent, but you have things arising such as planning housing and several other areas, and there should be a status as an official consultee for an external body. You see that in the area of rural development or planning. If you want to get an opinion on the development of a housing estate, you go to an external body to see if there is a risk to birds, or in terms of water or trees, but for the Welsh language, there is no provision. So, there is no statutory role for the Welsh language in consultations of that kind. And that's why it's absolutely vital that there is an external body, at an arm's length, that is provided and established, that promotes and facilitates the Welsh language on one hand, that can co-ordinate activities on the other, but also is a statutory consultee for issues of this kind.
Okay. There seems to be synergy in terms of what you're articulating. But we know that we live in very, very constrained times for the public purse. There's a £3.1 million budget, I believe, for the commissioner, whose view is clear, in terms of there being enough promotional ability currently to be able to carry out that work. So, I take your point in terms of clarity. It seems interesting that there are two different awareness badges being promoted, so, obviously, that's something that we can take note of in the committee. But, obviously, that means that promotional work is being done by the Welsh Government. So, in terms of the discourse, is it, from your perspectives, purely about resources?
Na, nid ydyw yn unig. Nid oes cydlynu ar hyn o bryd yn digwydd rhwng materion ieithyddol sydd yn ymwneud â gwahanol adrannau'r Llywodraeth. Er enghraifft, mae gyda chi adran addysg, sydd yn ceisio hybu addysg Gymraeg, ond nid oes yna brosesau o fewn y Llywodraeth i hyrwyddo addysg Gymraeg. Byddai corff allanol yn gallu gwneud hynny.
Mae yna brosesau wedyn yn digwydd o fewn y Llywodraeth o ran addysg bellach ac addysg uwch. Mae yna benderfyniad wedi ei wneud gan y Llywodraeth i hyrwyddo addysg uwch yn Lloegr. Mae cynllun Seren yn denu disgyblion galluog—mae fy wyres i yn un ohonyn nhw—i fynd ar gyrsiau gyda Seren fel eu bod yn gallu gwneud cais a chael eu hybu i wneud ceisiadau am brifysgolion Grŵp Russell ac mae pob un o'r rheini yn Lloegr heblaw Caerdydd. Felly, rŷm ni'n addysgu ein pobl ni yng Nghymru yn y Gymraeg ac wedyn rŷm ni'n eu hannog nhw i fynd dros y ffin. Mae'n rhyfedd mai Cymru, o bob gwlad yn Ewrop, sydd â'r ganran fwyaf o fyfyrwyr yn mynd i wlad arall am eu haddysg uwch. Felly, mae yna lawer o bolisïau yn digwydd o fewn y Llywodraeth lle mae fel pe bai pawb yn cynllunio ar eu pen eu hun heb fod yna orolwg cyffredinol yn glynu'r rhain i gyd at les a hyfywedd y Gymraeg.
Mater cwbl amlwg wedyn yw tai a chynllunio a'r economi. Mae hyfywedd ardaloedd Cymraeg yn hollbwysig, eto, rhywsut, nid ydym ni wedi llwyddo i fwrw ymlaen â'r maen yna i'r mur. Rydw i'n credu y byddai cael corff allanol, lled braich gydag arbenigedd ym maes cynllunio iaith, yn gallu arwain hyn ar draws y Llywodraeth—a byddai'n rhaid i'r corff yma hefyd fod â galluoedd statudol. Dyna pam rwy'n credu bod rhaid cael Deddf er mwyn ei sefydlu ef.
No, not purely. There is no co-ordination taking place at present between linguistic issues pertaining to the various departments of Government. For example, you have an education department that is attempting to promote Welsh-medium education, but there are no processes within the Government to promote Welsh-medium education. An external body could do that.
Processes then take place within the Government regarding further and higher education, and the Government has taken a decision to promote higher education in England. The Seren scheme attracts more able pupils or gifted pupils—and my granddaughter is one of them—to go on courses with Seren so that they can apply and are encouraged to apply for Russell Group universities, and each one of those is in England except for Cardiff. So, we teach them in Wales through the medium of Welsh and then we encourage them to go over the border. It's funny to think that Wales, of all the countries in Europe, has the highest proportion of students going to another country for their higher education. So, there are many policies within Government where everybody seems to be working in a silo, without having a general overview to co-ordinate the welfare and viability of the Welsh language.
And then an obvious issue is housing and planning and the economy. The viability of Welsh-speaking areas is essential and, somehow, we fail totally on that. I believe that having an external arm's-length body, with expertise in language planning that could lead on this, across Government—and this body would also have to have statutory powers, and that's why I believe you need to have legislation in order to establish it.
May I just pick up on that? So, in regards to that, there is currently no indication, and obviously, we've just had draft budget information coming to us, that there will be additional funding. You've got that vision, so is it shared across your perspectives that there should be separation of the functionality in terms of regulation?
Byddwn i'n cytuno bod angen corff i hybu y tu allan i'r Llywodraeth. Rydym ni'n teimlo'n gryf iawn y dylai rheoleiddio gael ei adael fel y mae e am y tro a bod angen corff. O ran cyllid, yn 2011-12, roedd bwrdd yr iaith yn gwario £4.4 miliwn ar gostau cynnal y sefydliad yn unig. Cyfanswm cyllideb y comisiynydd erbyn hyn yw £3 miliwn. Felly, mae yna dorri parhaus wedi bod. Byddwn i'n dadlau bod hyd yn oed y bwlch yna o £1.4 miliwn—gellid defnyddio hwnnw yn y man cyntaf ar gyfer costau rhedeg y sefydliad hybu.
Wrth gwrs, mae'n amser anodd yn ariannol. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cyhoeddi uchelgais i gael miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050. Rydym ni'n llwyr gefnogol i'r amcan yna. Yn wir, ni a gychwynnodd yr ymgyrch dros gael miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg, ac rydym yn falch iawn bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ateb yr her ac wedi gwneud yr ymrwymiad yna. Ond, er mwyn cyflawni'r ymrwymiad yna, mae yna ofyn am weithredu sylweddol a buddsoddi, ac nid ydym yn mynd i gyrraedd y targed hwnnw tan fod gennym ni Lywodraeth sydd yn barod i roi'r arian a'r strategaeth i mewn er mwyn sicrhau bod hynny'n digwydd. Mae yna deimlad, rydw i'n meddwl, bod y gwaith hybu angen newid gêr yn sylweddol, ac rydw i'n meddwl mai ein dewis ni a fyddai cael corff y tu allan i'r Llywodraeth ar gyfer hybu'r Gymraeg.
I would agree that we need a body to promote, which is external of Government. We feel very strongly that regulation should be left as it is for the time being and that we do need a body. In terms of funding, in 2011-12, the Welsh Language Board spent £4.4 million on costs of maintaining the organisation alone. The total budget of the commissioner by now is £3 million. So, there have been continuous cuts. I would argue even that that gap of £1.4 million could be used initially for the cost of running a promotional body.
Of course, these are difficult times financially. The Welsh Government has announced its ambition to have a million Welsh speakers by 2050, and we are entirely supportive of that aim. Indeed, we started the campaign for a million Welsh speakers, so we are very pleased that the Welsh Government has faced that challenge and has made that commitment. But, in order to achieve it, there is a need for significant activity and investment, and we won't reach that target until we have a Government that is willing to provide the investment and the strategy for that to happen. There is a feeling, I think, that the promotional work needs to step up a gear significantly, and our choice would be to have an external body to promote the Welsh language.
Iawn? Symudwn ymlaen. Rydym ni wedi cyffwrdd â'r safonau ychydig bach, ond symudwn ymlaen at y system honno'n fwy penodol. David Melding.
Fine? We'll move on. We have already touched on the standards, but we'll move on to David Melding's question.
Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I think all of the witnesses who have given evidence so far have said that the promotional element of the work, following the 2011 Measure, has not been adequately done in practice, though I'm not sure that deficiency is hard-wired into the legislation; it does seem to be how people have developed their roles. But if you look at the Government's performance, and indeed devolution's performance, we only came up with the million Welsh speakers target about a year ago. It's taken an awfully long time have some sort of strategic vision for mid-century, and I think you could reasonably argue that the regeneration of Welsh, which I think is an important difference to promotion, is one of the biggest objectives, I would have thought, of devolved governance.
But I share your frustration; I think there has been a failure in terms of setting those sorts of aspirations and then the strategies necessary. What I have difficulty with is—if I understand you correctly—you want to have three major players: you’ll have the Government as the Executive, pushing through the integrated policies to allow regeneration; you want some sort of outside body to come up with the vision and the engine room, I suppose, to allow that to happen, and that should be external, say, like a regeneration unit and ‘This is what’s needed’; and then you want a regulator as well. So, you’ve got three players there, and surely, two is company, three is a crowd, isn’t it, and there’s at least one too many?
Fyddwn i ddim yn derbyn hynny. Nid wyf yn meddwl eich bod chi o reidrwydd, drwy geisio creu un corff mawr sy’n gwneud pob peth, yn mynd i gael y canlyniadau gorau allan o hynny. Rydym ni’n teimlo’n gryf fod bwrdd yr iaith yn gorff a oedd yn trio gwneud gormod o bethau, yn y bôn, a ddim wedi llwyddo yn hynny o beth. A dyna pam y daeth y Mesur yma i fodoli. Pan ddaeth y Mesur o gwmpas, a phan benderfynwyd bod hyrwyddo’n mynd i mewn i’r Llywodraeth, roeddem ni’n lled gefnogol o hynny. Rydw i’n meddwl, o edrych yn ôl, nid yw hynny’n gweithio, ac felly, dyna pam rydym ni yn credu bod angen corff i hybu ar wahân. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae’n hollbwysig hefyd fod yna isadran neu adran o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru sy’n hybu’r Gymraeg, achos, fel yr oedd Heini’n sôn, y Llywodraeth—mae gan y Llywodraeth rym mawr a dylanwad mawr dros bopeth sy’n digwydd yng Nghymru, ac os nad oes yna adran rymus o fewn y Llywodraeth hefyd i hybu’r Gymraeg, rydw i'n meddwl bod peryg inni golli cyfleoedd ar rai o’r meysydd yr oedd Heini’n sôn amdanyn nhw, fel addysg, cynllunio ac ati.
Felly, mae angen gwaith hybu y tu allan i’r Llywodraeth. Mae ei angen o fewn y Llywodraeth hefyd, ac rydym ni’n meddwl, o'r holl bethau sydd angen iddyn nhw ddigwydd, a’r holl bethau sy’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd i adfywio’r Gymraeg, fel yr oeddech chi’n sôn, un o’r rhai sy’n gweithio ar hyn o bryd, yn ein barn ni, yw’r comisiynydd a’r safonau. Ac felly, byddem ni’n rhybuddio yn erbyn chwarae o gwmpas â hynny pan mae llawer y gallem ni ei wneud heb ddeddfu, heb addasu’r ddeddfwriaeth, er mwyn sicrhau bod y pethau eraill mewn lle hefyd.
I wouldn’t accept that. I don’t think that, by trying to create one large organisation that tries to do everything, you're necessarily going to get the best results out of that. We feel strongly that the Welsh Language Board was an organisation that was trying to do too many things, fundamentally, and that it didn’t succeed in that regard. That’s why we have this Measure. When the Measure was introduced, and it was decided that promotion should go into the Government, I was relatively supportive of that, but looking back on that, I don’t believe that it has worked, and that’s why we believe that there is a need for a separate promotion body. But, of course, it’s also very important that there is a department within Welsh Government that does promote the Welsh language, because, as Heini said, the Government has great power and influence over everything that happens in Wales, and unless there is also a powerful department within Government to promote the Welsh language, then there is a risk that we miss out on opportunities on some of the plans Heini was talking about, like education, planning and so on.
So, we need a body outwith the Government and also within Government. And we think that, of all the things that we need to see happening, and all the things that are happening at the moment to revive the Welsh language, one of the things that does work at the moment is the commissioner and the standards. So, we would caution against playing around with that when there is a great deal we could do without legislating, without amending the legislation, in order to ensure that the other things are in place as well.
Mae gen i feddwl agored am a ddylai rheoleiddio fod ar wahân neu beidio. Rydw i'n credu, mewn rhai meysydd, fod y rheoleiddiwr hefyd mewn sefydliad sydd yn hyrwyddo. Mae yna fanteision i hynny, yn yr ystyr bod y rheoleiddiwr yn cael gwybod, mewn ffordd, gan yr hyrwyddwyr ble mae’r anghenion. Byddai fe efallai hefyd yn arwain at brosesau mwy hwylus o reoleiddio. Ac enghraifft roeddwn i am sôn amdani hi gynnau fach oedd cyfaill i fi yn Abertawe a oedd wedi cwyno wrth Gyngor Abertawe ei fod e wedi derbyn ateb e-bost yn Saesneg oddi wrth weithiwr cyngor. Cwynodd e at y comisiynydd, ac ymhen wyth mis, fe gafodd e gadarnhad gan y comisiynydd fod y gweithiwr yma wedi bod ar fai. Ond, yn fewnol, yr hyn ddigwyddodd, wrth gwrs, oedd bod y gweithiwr ar y trên, di-Gymraeg ac yn gweithio dros amser, wedi ateb yn Saesneg, ac fe gafodd y cyfaill ymddiheuriad gan y cyngor o fewn deuddydd. Felly, mae’n rhaid gwybod ble mae’r achosion lle mae angen rheoleiddio manwl, a lle mae angen ichi, iawn, fod â llaw ysgafn a gwybod i gael gair yng nghlust yn hytrach na rheoleiddio manwl. Felly, mae yna fanteision yn gallu digwydd pe bai yna lawer mwy o gydweithio, o leiaf, rhwng y rheoleiddiwr a’r hyrwyddwyr, a’r rheoleiddiwr a’r Llywodraeth. Ac rydw i'n credu bod hynny wedi bod ar goll yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf.
Ond a ddylai fod ar wahân neu beidio, wel, mae’n rhaid mynd am y model fyddai’n gweithio orau.
I have an open mind about whether a regulator should be a separate entity or not. I think that, in some areas, the regulator is also located within the same body as the facilitator and promoter. There are advantages to that, in terms of the fact that the regulator knows, then, from the promoters where the needs are, and it might also lead to facilitated processes of regulation. I had a colleague in Swansea who’d complained to Swansea Council that he’d received an e-mail response in English-only from a council worker. He complained to the commissioner, and within eight months, he received confirmation from the commissioner that the council employee had been at fault. But, internally, the worker had been on a train, was not a Welsh speaker and was working extra hours, and had answered in English, and the colleague received an apology within two days. So, we have to identify the instances where we need a regulator to respond fully and where to have a lighter touch. So, there are advantages if there were much greater collaboration between the regulator and the promoter, and the regulator and the Government. And I think that’s what’s been missing over the past few years.
But whether the bodies should be separate, well, we would have to go to the model that works best.
Fe wnaf i jest ychwanegu hefyd, o gyfeirio yn ôl at fwrdd yr iaith, roedd yn anodd, rwy’n meddwl, i gyfuno’r ddau, o ran bod yn rheoleiddiwr a gosod cynllun iaith fel yr oedd e ar y pryd, neu osod rheoliadau mewn lle tra hefyd yn annog y cwmni yna i fod yn rhagweithiol a chynnig gwasanaethau Cymraeg. Roedd yn anodd iawn gwneud y ddau a dweud, ‘Reit, mae’n rhaid ichi wneud hyn’, ond eto annog, fel mae pobl yn cyfeirio at—beth yw e—y carrot and the stick—. Rŷch chi’n methu defnyddio’r ddau; mae bron rhaid dewis un neu’r llall.
May I just add also, referring back to the language board, it was difficult to combine both elements, as regards being a regulator and setting language schemes, as they were at the time, or putting regulations in place whilst also, at the same time, trying to encourage that organisation to be proactive and offer Welsh language services. It’s very difficult to say that there is enforcement on the one side and encouragement on the other side, and say, 'Right, you have to do this', but also encourage, and people refer to the carrot and the stick—. Well, you can’t use both simultaneously; you have to choose one or the other.
Okay. Well, let me make a suggestion that might be a more elegant design, and that is that you have a powerful regeneration unit in the Welsh Government, with full Executive authority to drive through those cross-cutting themes that are required. You know, we’ve mentioned housing, education—it goes right across—agricultural policy, all sorts of things. It’s given the sort of oomph that we have for climate change policies, for instance, and you resource it. So, the Government has the responsibility, therefore. And then you strengthen the powers of the commissioner, so that she regulates and audits the Government’s work and reports on it, a bit like the sustainability commissioner. Surely, that is going to be a much clearer system than having three players in the system.
Wel, fel soniodd Bethan yn gynharach, rydw i'n meddwl y byddem ni’n agored i hynny, os nad oes yna bosibilrwydd o greu corff hybu. Rydym ni’n meddwl, yn ddelfrydol, fod angen corff hybu allanol. Fel yr oedd Heini’n dweud, fe allwch chi wneud hynny yn y Llywodraeth hefyd.
Rydw i’n meddwl ei bod yn bwysig iawn fod yna adran rymus yn y Llywodraeth, achos yn y Llywodraeth y mae popeth arall yn digwydd, fel rŷch chi’n dweud. Rŷm ni’n teimlo—. Roeddech chi’n sôn am gryfhau’r comisiynydd. Mae yna bethau, wrth gwrs, yn y Mesur y byddem ni’n hoffi eu gwella. Un ohonyn nhw yw annibyniaeth y comisiynydd. Un ohonyn nhw yw ymestyn y safonau i’r sector preifat i gyd. Ond, rydw i'n meddwl, o fod wedi edrych ar Bapur Gwyn y Llywodraeth a’r cynlluniau sydd gan y Llywodraeth, mae’r hyn sydd gan y Llywodraeth i’w gynnig ar hyn o bryd o ran diwygio’r Mesur mor bell o beth y byddem ni’n dymuno ei weld ac, yn wir, yn camu yn ôl o’r hyn sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd, rydym ni’n teimlo—nid ydym ni’n teimlo ein bod ni’n agos at allu perswadio’r Llywodraeth i ddweud rhywbeth synhwyrol gyda’r Mesur. Ac felly, rydym ni’n teimlo ei bod yn well am y tro adael y Mesur ac, ie, edrych, drwy ffyrdd heblaw deddfu, ar ffyrdd o sicrhau bod gennym ni’r peiriant adfywio yna yr oeddech chi’n sôn amdano fe.
Well, as Bethan mentioned earlier, I think that we would be open to that, if there is no possibility of creating a promotional body. We think that, ideally, a promotional body is needed, an external body. As Heini said, you could do that within Government as well.
I think it’s very important that there is a powerful and empowered department within Government, because it is in the Government that everything happens. We feel that—. You talked about strengthening the commissioner’s role. There are things, of course, within the Measure that we would like to improve. One of them is the independence of the commissioner. One of them is to extend the standards to the private sector as a whole. But, I think, from having looked at the Government’s White Paper and the Government’s plans, I think what the Government has to offer in terms of amending the Measure is so far from what we would wish to see and, indeed, it rolls back from what we have at present, that we don’t feel that we are anywhere near persuading the Government to do something sensible with the Measure. And so we feel that it would be best for now to leave the Measure and, yes, to look through methods aside from legislation to ensure that we do have that revival mechanism, which you were talking about. available.
A gaf i gynnig un peth? Rydw i wedi clywed y syniad yma yn dod o ambell gyfeiriad, sef na fyddai’n beth ffôl pe bai’r rheoleiddiwr yn cael ei benodi gan y Cynulliad ac yn atebol i’r Cynulliad yn hytrach nag i’r Llywodraeth, ac felly yn fwy annibynnol ar y Llywodraeth.
Ond o ran y corff allanol, oherwydd, rydw i'n credu, fod angen i’r corff allanol gael pwerau statudol, o ran bod yn ymgynghorai statudol ac o ran cael cyfrifoldebau cyfreithiol, rydw i'n credu bod angen deddfu am hynny. Ac mi ellid dod i mewn wedyn, gyda hynny, â’r angen enfawr am gael lle iawn i addysg ym maes deddfu hefyd.
May I propose one thing? I’ve heard this idea from a number of directions, which is that it wouldn’t be a bad thing if the regulator was appointed by the Assembly and was accountable to the Assembly rather than to the Government and would therefore be more independent of Government.
But as regards the external body, because, I believe, the external body should have statutory powers, as regards being a statutory consultee and also having legal responsibilities, then I believe that you would need legislation to do that. And then you could include, then, with that the huge need for having a proper legislative place for education, too.
David.
Thank you. Those are insightful responses, and they’ll definitely help our work. I’m particularly interested in your view that the commissioner ought to be appointed by the Assembly. I think many of us believe all commissioners should be legislative appointments and not appointed by the Executive, who, primarily, are there to audit, you could argue.
Can I just ask one question on standards? I think you reflect quite a bit what other witnesses have said, in that standards were an advance, because it does allow enforcement more effectively, but there are too many of them. I don’t want to go down the side on they're all publicly focused and don’t cover the private sector, but I am interested in the criticism I think both your organisations make, that there are too many of them. And I was very interested to hear you, Mr Gruffydd, say that they're too individually focused instead of social. How would fewer standards with more of a social focus look?
Os ŷch chi’n mynd i’r maes cymdeithasol, rŷch chi’n sôn wedyn am greu safonau am ofodau lle mae’r Gymraeg yn gallu cael ei defnyddio ar lafar mewn cymunedau. Mi allai hynny—byddech chi bron yn rhwym i ddod i mewn â'r sector preifat i hynny, ond mi allai ymwneud fwy â bod gan siopau, er enghraifft, bobl sydd yn siarad y Gymraeg yn hytrach na bod arwyddion i'w gweld, bod sefydliadau sydd yn gweithredu yn defnyddio'r Gymraeg ar lafar, a bod sgôp y meddwl cyffredinol yn mynd am sefyllfaoedd sydd yn ymwneud â'r rhan fwyaf o fywyd pobl.
Y teimlad sydd gen i ar hyn o bryd yw bod y safonau'n ymwneud â meysydd nad yw pobl eisiau ymwneud â nhw. Mae cysylltu â'r cyngor yn beth anodd, talu biliau yn beth anodd. Efallai fod y safonau yn gyffredinol ar hyn o bryd yn ymwneud â rhyw 5 y cant o fywyd unigolyn. Mae gan bob unigolyn efallai saith neu wyth o gylchoedd bywyd—gwaith, addysg, hamdden ac yn y blaen. Mae'r safonau ar hyn o bryd ar y cyfan yn ymwneud â chylchoedd bach iawn, tra bo gweddill y meysydd yn agored. Felly, mae eisiau mynd i weddill y meysydd ym mywyd unigolion. Mae llawer o sôn wedi bod am wersi nofio, popeth yn iawn, ond mae eisiau mynd ar ôl y meysydd hamdden a'r meysydd lle mae pobl yn mwynhau a bod y rheini yn cael eu Cymreigio.
If you enter the world of social linguistics, you're then talking about the creation of standards in areas where the Welsh language can be used orally within communities. You'd then be forced, almost, to bring the private sector in, but it could be to do more with shops having Welsh speakers available rather than just having signs, that public organisations should use the Welsh language orally, and that the general scope would be going for situations that appertain to people's everyday lives.
The feeling I have at the moment is that standards are imposed in those areas that people don't really like being involved with—such as contacting the council and paying bills. Standards at the moment appertain to about only 5 per cent of an individual's life. Every individual has maybe six or seven different circles within their lives—work, education, leisure et cetera. The standards at the moment are more to do with the official side, while the other areas are open. So, there is a need to enter more into every walk of an individual's life. Swimming lessons are mentioned often, which is correct, but we need to go after the leisure areas and areas that people enjoy, and that they should be made more Welsh, if you like.
Rydw i'n meddwl y byddem ni'n dweud bod y meysydd yna'n bwysig hefyd, a bod yr hawliau sydd wedi cael eu sefydlu drwy'r safonau, faint bynnag o bobl sy'n manteisio arnyn nhw ar hyn o bryd, yn bwysig—achos maen nhw'n hawliau, maen nhw'n hawliau dynol, ac mae gennym ni hawl fel siaradwyr Cymraeg ac fel pobl Cymru i gael yr hawliau yna. Rydw i'n meddwl y byddwn i'n cytuno â'r sylwadau sydd wedi cael eu gwneud ynghylch y gallu i gryfhau'r safonau yng nghyd-destun y gweithle i sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn hanfodol ac ati.
Gogoniant y Mesur a'r safonau fel y maen nhw yw bod yna lawer iawn o hyblygrwydd. Mae'r safonau'n cael eu llunio drwy is-ddeddfwriaeth, felly fe all y Gweinidog a'r Llywodraeth benderfynu ar unrhyw adeg i ddod â mwy o safonau, i addasu'r safonau, i ddisodli’r safonau presennol gyda rhai eraill. Mewn ffordd, nid oes angen deddfu o fath yn y byd i wneud hynny; mae hynny jest yn fater i'r Gweinidog ac i'w gweision sifil i benderfynu arnyn nhw. Felly, byddwn i'n sicr yn hoffi gweld cryfhau mewn rhai meysydd er mwyn sicrhau mwy o wahaniaeth, ond mae modd gwneud hynny drwy is-ddeddfwriaeth.
I think we would say that those areas are important as well, and that the rights that have been established through the standards, no matter how many people take advantage of them, are important—because they are rights, they are human rights, and we do have rights as Welsh speakers and the people of Wales to have those rights and to exercise them. I would agree with the comments that have been made with regard to the ability to strengthen the standards in terms of the workplace to make Welsh compulsory and so on.
The blessing of the Measure and the standards as they are at the moment is that there is a great deal of flexibility. Standards are put together through subordinate legislation, so the Minister and the Government could decide at any time to introduce more standards, to adapt the standards, to replace the current standards with new standards. Legislation isn't required to do that it is a matter for the Minister and for the civil servants to decide on them. So, we would like to see some areas being strengthened in order to ensure a greater difference, but that could be done through subordinate legislation.
Os caf i jest ychwanegu, ddim cymaint o ran nifer y safonau ond effaith y safonau. Fe fyddem ni i gyd yn dymuno gweld sefydliadau Cymraeg, ac rwy'n gwybod o brofiad cynghorau sir Gâr, Ceredigion a Gwynedd hefyd y dylem ni bron fod yn anelu at rywbeth y tu hwnt i'r safonau. Ond mewn ardaloedd eraill rŷm ni wedi gweld camu ymlaen. Fel roedd Osian yn sôn, mae yna fodd cyflwyno mwy o safonau, a byddai hynny yn golygu bod cynghorau yn anelu at gynnydd.
Rwy'n gwybod bod Cyngor Sir Gâr wedi cymryd arnyn nhw eu hunain i ddweud eu bod nhw am wneud y Gymraeg yn brif iaith y sir dros y blynyddoedd i ddod. Rŷm ni'n gobeithio wedyn mai un o'r pethau fydd y cyngor sir ei hunan yn ei wneud yw newid yr iaith fewnol. Nid yw hynny'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Ond fe ddylai cynghorau fel sir Gâr a Cheredigion yn rhwydd gyrraedd at y safonau.
Felly, rŷm ni'n gweld cam ymlaen ond rŷm ni hefyd yn gweld y gwendid o ran—mae cyngor fel Ceredigion nawr yn dweud, 'Ni'n gwneud popeth rŷm ni'n gorfod ei wneud o ran y safonau. Rŷm ni'n gwneud yn grêt. Dyma'r holl bethau rŷm ni wedi gwneud—', pan maen nhw'n bethau hollol elfennol. Felly, oes, mae bach o ffordd i fynd.
If I could just add, not so much as regards the number of standards but the impact of the standards. We would all wish to see Welsh organisations, and I know from the experience of councils like Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion and Gwynedd too that we should almost be aiming at something beyond the standards there. But in other areas we have seen great leaps forward. As Osian mentioned, it is possible to introduce more standards, and that would mean that councils would aim for greater progress.
I know that Carmarthenshire County Council have taken it on themselves to say that they will make Welsh the main language of the county in ensuing years. We would hope that one of the things that the county council did themselves was to change their internal language of administration. That isn't happening at the moment. But councils such as Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion should easily be able to achieve the standards.
So, while we see steps forward, we also see the weakness—a council such as Ceredigion says, 'We do absolutely everything we have to do under the standards. We're doing great. These are all the things we do—', but they're elementary things. So, yes, there is still a way to go.
A allaf i ddod nôl am eiliad er mwyn sicrhau ein bod ni'n ateb eich cwestiwn chi ynghylch cymhlethdod y safonau? Rydw i'n meddwl beth sy'n bwysig i'w ystyried yw'r profiad i'r defnyddiwr. Felly, os oes yna ychydig o waith sydd angen ei wneud yn y sefydliadau er mwyn sicrhau bod gwasanaethau yn cael eu cynnig yn rhagweithiol, rydw i'n meddwl beth sy'n bwysig yw bod yna symlrwydd i'r dinesydd. Ac felly, mae yna waith i'w wneud o ran Cymreigio ein sefydliadau ni, ac er mwyn sicrhau fod hynny'n digwydd, a dyna ddiben y safonau. Ond rydw i'n meddwl hefyd, os byddech chi'n cymharu'r cynlluniau iaith â'r safonau, y gwir yw bod y safonau'n llawer symlach. Mae yna lawer ohonyn nhw, efallai, ond maen nhw'n hollol glir ynghylch beth yw'r gofyniad. Yn yr hen amser, fe allech chi gael trwch o gynllun iaith ac fe fyddech chi'n gorfod treulio hanner diwrnod yn edrych drwyddo fe i weld beth oedd eich hawliau chi. Mae'n hollol eglur nawr, ac nid ydw i'n meddwl bod nifer y safonau yn rhywbeth sy'n ein pryderu ni yn arbennig, a dweud y gwir.
Can I come back for a moment to ensure that we answer your question about the complexity of the standards? I think what's important to consider is the experience for the user. So, if work needs to be done within the institutions to ensure that services are offered proactively, then I think what's important is that there is simplicity for the citizen. And so, there is a great deal of work to do in terms of making our institutions more Welsh in terms of their ethos, and to ensure that that is happening, and that is the purpose of the standards. But if you compare the language schemes with the standards, the reality is that the standards are far simpler. There are many of them, perhaps, but they are entirely clear in terms of what the requirements are. In past times, you would have a lengthy language scheme and you would have to spend half a day looking through it to see what your rights were. Now it's entirely clear, and I don't think that the number of standards is of concern to us, particularly.
Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you very much.
Ocê. Mick Antoniw.
Okay. Mick Antoniw.
Just to follow on from a point that Heini made, and just to get something clear in my mind: we seem to be in a dilemma where there's a real battle in terms of the focus on the state, the bureaucracy, the system of language, even the numbers of speakers, rather than the issue of usage. It seems to me that a language can equally be under threat even though there are increasing numbers of people speaking it. But if the usage diminishes, how does that get resolved, because it seems the strategy is very much towards systematic change, but there doesn't seem to be a very clear strategy in terms of how you develop the usage issue?
Diolch yn fawr. Rydw i'n credu eich bod chi wedi taro ar bwynt cwbl allweddol. Wrth i'r Gymraeg gael mwy a mwy o hawliau, mae llai a llai o bobl yn ei siarad. Rŷch chi'n mynd at fater gwaelodol ym maes cynllunio iaith. Yn ddiddorol, mae'r holl Fesur iaith yn ymwneud â'r Gymraeg fel abstract. Nid yw'n ymwneud â phobl Gymraeg. Mae yna hawliau i'r Gymraeg. Nawr, os ŷch chi eisiau sôn am ddefnydd, nid yw'r safonau'n ymwneud â hynny, mewn gwirionedd. Yn waelodol i hynny, byddai cynlluniau neu safonau sydd yn golygu bod rhaid cael hyn a hyn o swyddi drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, a bod hyn yn digwydd—mae'n amlwg mai'r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yw'r man hawsaf i ddelio gyda hynny—a bod gyda chi swyddi, fel y dywedwyd fan hyn—. Mae Gwynedd yn barod yn gweithredu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae Môn yn symud i'r cyfeiriad yna. Mae'n hollbwysig bod Ceredigion a Chaerfyrddin yn mynd i'r cyfeiriad yna. Wedyn, yn sydyn, byddai gyda chi, heb fwy o gost—nid yw cost yn ymwneud â hyn o gwbl—filoedd o swyddi lle byddai pobl yn gweithio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.
Y broblem fawr sydd gyda ni ym maes y bobl sy'n dysgu'r Gymraeg ac ym maes y miloedd sy'n mynd drwy addysg Gymraeg yw eu bod nhw'n gadael yr ysgol a bod dim cyfleoedd naturiol wedyn iddyn nhw siarad y Gymraeg, gan fod y Saesneg yn drech, bron, ym mhob maes bywyd. Os ŷch chi'n newid iaith gwaith yn y siroedd yna, a hefyd yn ôl canrannau siaradwyr yn y siroedd eraill—dywedwch, Caerdydd: 15 y cant o'r swyddi lleol drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg—yn sydyn, rŷch chi'n creu miloedd o gyfleoedd i bobl sydd yn gadael yr ysgol ac i weithwyr ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg.
Yn ddiddorol, mae Gwlad y Basgiaid yn cael yr un math o broblemau â ninnau, ond maen nhw wedi mynd yn y lle cyntaf i gynyddu niferoedd, sydd wedi gweithio'n hynod, hynod o lwyddiannus yng nghymuned ymreolus y Basgiaid, ac wedi codi o ryw 0.5 miliwn i 0.75 miliwn mewn 20 mlynedd. Dyna gam y Llywodraeth. Ond mae yna gamau eraill, a heb y camau eraill, nid yw'r camau yna'n mynd â ni, efallai, ymhellach na sefyllfa'r iaith yn Iwerddon. Yng Ngwlad y Basgiaid, maen nhw wedi cael yr un problemau â ni, ac yng Nghatalonia hefyd, o ran trio annog cartrefi i ddefnyddio'r iaith leiafrifol. Mae honno'n dasg gwbl, gwbl sylfaenol, ac nid oes un o'r gwledydd wedi datrys hynny. Ond lle maen nhw wedi datrys tipyn o hynny yng Ngwlad y Basgiaid yw drwy gael y Fasgeg yn iaith gwaith. Mae llawer mwy o bobl, felly, yn defnyddio'r Fasgeg, ac mae yna ystadegau gyda nhw—ai bob pum mlynedd—am y canrannau sydd yn defnyddio'r Fasgeg. Mae yna gynnydd wedi bod yn y defnydd o'r iaith ym myd gwaith ac ymysg ffrindiau, ond nid yn y cartref. Felly, mae yna waith anodd iawn i'w wneud yn y meysydd yna, ond mae yna ryw ffyrdd i ddechrau mynd ar hyd y ffordd yna. Ond bydd e ddim yn hawdd.
Thank you very much. I think that you've hit the nail on the head. As the Welsh language gets more and more rights, fewer people are speaking it. You've actually got to the root of the issue in the field of language planning. Interestingly, the whole language Measure appertains to the Welsh language in the abstract. It doesn't appertain to Welsh people. There are rights for the Welsh language. Now, if you want to talk about usage, the standards don't really apply to that. Fundamentally, schemes or standards that mean that you have to have so many people or posts through the medium of Welsh, and that that happens—obviously, it's easier for the public sector to deal with that—and that you have posts, as was mentioned here—. Gwynedd already works through the medium of Welsh. Anglesey is moving in that direction. It's crucial that Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire should also go in that direction. Then, suddenly, without any more expense—cost doesn't come into this at all—you would have thousands of posts where people were working through the medium of Welsh.
The problem that we have in the field of learning Welsh and the thousands who are going through Welsh-medium education is that they leave school and then there is no natural opportunity for them to speak Welsh after leaving school, because English is the predominant language everywhere, almost. But if you change the language of administration in those counties, and also according to the percentage of speakers in other counties—say, Cardiff: 15 per cent of local posts through the medium of Welsh—then, suddenly, you would be able to create thousands of new opportunities for school leavers and for workers to use the language.
Interestingly, the Basque Country has the same kind of problems as us, but, in the first place, they have set about increasing the numbers, which has worked extremely successfully in the autonomous Basque community, with an increase from some 0.5 million to 0.75 million in 20 years. That was a Government step. But there are other steps, and without other steps, those steps don't take us, perhaps, further than the situation of the language in Ireland. In the Basque Country, they've had the same problems as us, and in Catalonia as well, in terms of trying to persuade people to use the minority language at home. That is a completely basic task, and not one of the countries has been able to resolve it. But where they've managed to resolve some of that in the Basque Country is by getting the Basque language to be the language of the workplace. So, you've got many more people, therefore, using the Basque language, and they have statistics—I believe every five years—of the percentages using the Basque language. They demonstrate that there's been an increase in the use of the Basque language in the workplace and amongst friends, but not in the home. So, it's quite difficult to tackle this in these areas, but there are ways to start to approach it. But it won't be easy.
Byddwn i'n cytuno o ran bod lle i sefydliadau arwain y ffordd. Os ŷch chi'n creu awyrgylch gwaith Cymraeg, mae hynny yn bwysig—ac, wrth gwrs, addysg. Wrth gynyddu addysg Gymraeg, mae'n dod yn gyfrwng y mae pobl yn ei ddefnyddio. Ond er mwyn mynd y tu hwnt i hynny, mae'n bosib bod angen mwy o reoleiddio, achos os yw'r byd o'ch cwmpas chi, popeth rŷch chi'n ei weld o ddydd i ddydd—. Os ŷch chi jest yn edrych ar y teledu, hyd yn oed os ŷch chi'n edrych ar deledu Cymraeg, rŷch chi'n bownd o weld hysbysebion Saesneg, ac os ŷch chi'n darllen papurau newydd—mae jest y byd yn digwydd yn Saesneg, bron. Felly, mae lle i reoleiddio, byddwn i'n dadlau, o ran hynny. Ond, wrth gwrs, nid dyna'r unig beth. Byddwn ni ddim eisiau gweld mai dim ond rheoleiddio sy'n digwydd.
Roeddech chi'n cyfeirio yn fanna at annog trosglwyddiad. Mi oedd yna, wrth gwrs, Twf, a oedd yn gwneud gwaith da iawn ar y gwaith hybu yna. Mae hynny wedi cael ei dorri. Mae'n bosib, petai yna—i gyfeirio nôl—gorff ar wahân sy'n gwneud y gwaith hybu, efallai y byddai toriad i'r gwasanaeth yna, ond byddai rhywun yn gobeithio, os oes yna gorff hybu, byddai yna lai o debygrwydd bod gwasanaethau fel yna yn cael eu torri.
I would agree in terms of the fact that institutions have a role to lead the way. If you create an environment in the workplace where Welsh is spoken, then that is important. And in terms education, by increasing Welsh-medium education, it becomes a medium that people do then use. But then, to take it further than that, it is possible that we need greater regulation, because if the world around you, everything that you see on a daily basis—. If you look at the television, even if you look at Welsh-medium television, you're bound to see English-language advertisements, and if you read newspapers—the world happens through the medium of English, almost. So, there is a role for regulation in that regard, I would argue. But, of course that's not the only thing. I wouldn't want to state that it's all about regulation.
You referred there to encouraging transfer and transmission. There was Twf, a scheme that did excellent work in terms of that promotional work. That has been cut. It's possible that—referring back—if there were a separate body that does that promotional work, perhaps there would be a cut to that service, but one would hope that if there was a promotional body, there would be less likelihood that services like that would be cut.
Can I just follow it through? I mean, there are some interesting international things, I think, and hopefully we might get a chance to explore them later, because I think that's really important. But in terms of the standards as they are now, there appear to be conflicting views. Some say they're too complex, too bureaucratic. You expressed a view that now the standards are there, they're clear and understandable. Do we not need some stability in terms of standards, that we can actually get obsessed with continually changing or looking at ways of changing standards, and that deflects our attention from what are more important aspects to do with it? I mean, what's your view? Do you think there is scope—, that we should be changing them, or would you prefer that degree of stability now? It is still relatively early days. The Government is looking at changing the system again, yet we've got a number of standards that have only recently—relatively recently—been introduced.
Rydw i'n meddwl eich bod chi yn llygaid eich lle, a dweud y gwir. Rydw i'n meddwl, o'n safbwynt ni, wrth gwrs mae yna bethau y gellid eu gwella yn y safonau, ac yn y Mesur, ac o ran annibyniaeth y comisiynydd, ond y gwir yw, hwnnw yw'r maes sydd wedi cael ei ddiweddaru diwethaf. Mae'n gweithio'n eithaf da. Mae yna gymaint o bethau eraill y dylai'r Llywodraeth fod yn canolbwyntio arnyn nhw er mwyn cyrraedd 1 filiwn. Nid yw tincran gyda'r Mesur ac, mewn ffordd, datgymalu cyfundrefn sy'n gweithio'n dda, sy'n newydd iawn—ni ddylai hynny fod yn flaenoriaeth. Rydw i'n meddwl ein bod ni'n dweud hyn yn ein tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig: os oes yna amser deddfwriaethol ar gael, dylai fod y Llywodraeth yn dod â Deddf addysg Gymraeg ymlaen er mwyn sicrhau bod pawb yn cael y cyfle, dros amser, i gael addysg drwy'r Gymraeg. Un o anghyfiawnderau mwyaf y Gymru gyfoes, fe fyddwn i'n dadlau, yw bod mwyafrif ein pobl ifanc ni yn treulio blynyddoedd yn mynd i wersi Cymraeg ac yn dal i ddod allan o'r ysgol heb allu dweud un frawddeg yn Gymraeg. Mae hynny'n un o'n prif ymgyrchoedd ni ar hyn y bryd—sicrhau addysg Gymraeg i bawb. A sori am ddod â hynny i mewn ar draws pob peth.
Ond, ie, yn y bôn, rydw i'n meddwl eich bod chi'n llygaid eich lle. Nid ydw i'n meddwl taw dyma'r amser—dwy flynedd o weithredu'r safonau. Wrth gwrs, mewn theori, byddai modd addasu'r is-ddeddfwriaeth. Y pwynt roeddwn i'n trio ei wneud yw nad oes angen deddfu er mwyn gwneud hynny, ond rydw i'n meddwl eich bod chi'n iawn. Mae yna lawer iawn o sefydliadau—rydw i'n meddwl bod Bethan wedi cyfeirio at rai ohonyn nhw—sydd ddim yn dod o dan y safonau eto. Beth fyddwn i'n hoffi gweld yn digwydd yw'r Llywodraeth yn parhau i osod safonau ar y cyrff yna—cymdeithasau tai, trafnidiaeth, cwmnïau ynni ac ati—ac mewn pump i 10 mlynedd yn edrych yn ôl a gweld beth sydd angen ei wneud. Ond yn y cyfamser, mae angen edrych ar yr holl feysydd eraill yna er mwyn sicrhau bod gennym ni'r darlun cyflawn o ran adfywio'r Gymraeg.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there, to be honest, because from our point of view, of course there are things that can be improved in the standards, and in the Measure, and in terms of the powers of the commissioner, but the reality is. that's the field that has been updated most recently. It works quite well. There are so many other things the Government should be focusing on in order to attain the 1 million speakers. Tinkering with the Measure and, sort of, trying to demolish a system that works well and is very new shouldn't be a priority. I think we say this in our written evidence: if there is some legislative time, then the Government should bring a Welsh education Bill forward in order to ensure that everyone has the opportunity, over time, to receive Welsh-medium education. One of the greatest injustices in contemporary Wales, I would argue, is that the majority of our young people spend years going to Welsh lessons and they still emerge from school not being able to say a sentence in Welsh. That's one of our main campaigns at present—ensuring Welsh-medium education for everyone. And sorry to bring that in across everything else.
But, yes, I think that you've hit the nail on the head. I don't believe that this is the time—we've only had two years of implementing the standards. Of course, in theory, it would be possible to amend the subordinate legislation. The point I was trying to make was that you wouldn't need to have legislation for that, but I think that you're right. There are many institutions—Bethan has referred to some of them, I think—that don't yet come under those standards. What I would like to see happening is for the Government to continue to impose standards on these institutions—housing associations, transport, energy companies and so on—and maybe in five to 10 years hence you could look back and see what needs to be done. But in the interim, we need to look at all these other areas to make sure that we have the complete picture as regards reviving the Welsh language.
A gaf i ddod yn ôl, efallai? Rydw i'n derbyn bod y safonau yn fanwl ac yn gallu gweithio, ond rydw i'n credu bod y comisiynydd wedi penderfynu gweithio mewn ffordd lawer, lawer rhy fiwrocrataidd arnyn nhw. Ond mae yna wendidau hefyd. Mae yna safonau manwl iawn os ŷch chi eisiau cael ffurflen hwn a'r llall yn y Gymraeg—os ŷch chi'n cael eich diswyddo—ond mae yna un safon yn gofyn i awdurdodau lleol fesur ac adrodd mewn pum mlynedd ar dwf y Gymraeg yn eu hardaloedd nhw. Mae yna un safon yn gofyn am hynny. Nawr, dylai'r safon yna fod yn gwbl, gwbl fanwl fel y lleill: ym mha feysydd, ble, sut, gyda phwy, pa orfodaeth sydd i'r Gymraeg. Nawr, nid oes arbenigwyr iaith gan y rhan fwyaf o awdurdodau lleol—22 ohonyn nhw. Efallai bod un neu ddau awdurdod yn gallu gwneud hynny, ond rydw i'n gwybod am rai awdurdodau lle maen nhw'n trio ffeindio mas faint o ganghennau o Ferched y Wawr sydd ar gael, a rhyw bethau felly, sy'n bell iawn, iawn o'r hyn sydd ei angen mewn datblygu iaith mewn ardaloedd.
Felly, byddai corff allanol â'r gallu a'r meddwl a'r arbenigedd i fynd ar ôl y maes yna a rhoi arweiniad i awdurdodau lleol—. Ac rydw i'n credu ein bod ni, ar hyn o bryd, yn colli tric mawr yn hynny—ein bod ni'n gofyn i awdurdodau lleol wneud hyn a'r llall. Maen nhw'n gwneud y pethau sy’n bosibl i'w gwneud yn weinyddol, ond nid oes dim meddwl yn mynd y tu ôl y cyfan a beth yw gwir oblygiadau adfywio iaith yn eu hardaloedd nhw. Ac mae'n rhaid i chi gael arbenigwyr i wneud hynny, a dyna fyddai'n gallu dod drwy gorff allanol, a fyddai’n gallu nid yn unig hyrwyddo, ond cynghori a siarad a datblygu'r maes.
May I respond? I accept that these standards are detailed and can work, but I think that the commissioner has decided to work in a far too bureaucratic manner, and there are weaknesses too. There are very detailed standards if you want such and such a form in Welsh—if you're made redundant and so on—but there is one standard that requires local authorities to measure and report in five years on the growth of the Welsh language in their areas. There's a standard that does require that. Now, of course, that standard should be very detailed like the others: which areas, with whom, what compulsion there is for the Welsh language. Now, there are no linguistic experts within the majority of the local authorities—22 of them. Perhaps one or two local authorities can do that work, but I know of some authorities where they tried to find out how many branches of Merched y Wawr there are within their areas, and things like that, which is very far removed from what's needed in terms of language development in those areas.
So, an external body that has the ability and the expertise to pursue that particular area and to give direction to local authorities—. And I think we're missing a trick in that regard now—that we're asking local authorities to do that work. They do the things that are possible to do administratively, but there is no thought given to the bigger picture and what the genuine implications are of language revival in their areas. And you do have to get expertise in on that, and that's what could come through an external body, which could not only promote, but advise and speak to and develop this area.
The Minister said that there are going to be no new regulations—they're going to concentrate on new legislation instead. That seems to me to be rather complicating the situation. What's your general view in terms of that as a direction?
Ie, byddem ni, yn bendant, yn cytuno bod mynd ar ôl Deddf newydd ar hyn o bryd yn sgwarnog, yn enwedig o ystyried y cynigion sydd ym Mil y Gymraeg. Mae nifer fawr o wendidau. Mewn gwirionedd, allwn ni ddim gweld cyfiawnhad dros yr hyn sydd yn y Bil, gan fod cymaint o wendidau.
Yes, most definitely, we would agree that pursuing a new Act at present would be futile, particularly when you look at the proposals in the Welsh language Bill. There are a number of weaknesses. In fact, we can't see any justification for what is contained within the Bill, because there are so many weaknesses.
Sori, peidiwch â mynd i mewn i hynny ar hyn o bryd—mae yna gwestiynau ar y Bil newydd. Jest os oes yna sylw, efallai, yn fwy ynglŷn â beth oedd y Gweinidog wedi'i ddweud ynglŷn â pheidio â rhoi mwy o safonau ar y sectorau rydych chi wedi sôn amdanynt yn barod. Ac wedyn mi wnawn ni fynd at y Bil newydd, os yw hynny'n iawn.
Sorry, please don't go into that at the moment, because we'd like to ask questions about the new Bill. Just if you've got any further comments, perhaps, on what the Minister said about not imposing more standards on the sectors that you've already alluded to. And then we will talk about the new Bill, if that's okay.
Ocê, iawn. Rydym ni wedi cyfeirio at y safonau. Mae grym gyda'r Llywodraeth i roi safonau ar fwy o gyrff. Fe wnes i gyfeirio at y cymdeithasau tai, y cyfleustodau a thrafnidiaeth. Byddem ni eisiau hefyd gweld bod banciau a chwmnïau telegyfathrebu yn dod o dan y safonau. Mae'n bosibl gwneud hynny heb ddeddfu. Felly, ie, byddwn i'n cytuno.
Okay, fine. We have alluded to the standards. The Government has powers to impose standards on more organisations. We referred to the housing associations, the utilities and transport organisations. We would also wish to see banks and telecommunication companies also being subject to the standards. It's possible to do that without legislation. So, yes, I would agree.
Rydw i'n meddwl y byddai'r Gweinidog yn siarad am ddefnyddio mwy o'r foronen a llai o’r ffon ac ati. Y gwir yw, mae'r safonau sydd wedi cael eu gosod ar y cyrff hyd yma wedi cael newid syfrdanol gydag ychydig iawn o waith gan y Llywodraeth a gan y comisiynydd. Hynny yw, mae'n ffordd rad iawn o greu newid yn y sefydliadau. Yn y cyfnod yma, lle nad oes yna lawer o arian, rydym ni'n meddwl ei fod e'n hurtrwydd llwyr fod y Gweinidog yn stopio'r broses yna sydd wedi bod yn mynd yn dda iawn hyd yma, gan dderbyn, wrth gwrs, fod yna wendidau yn y system. Allwch chi ddim cymharu'r gwasanaeth Cymraeg a gewch chi gan gynghorau sir heddiw â beth oeddech chi’n ei gael bum mlynedd yn ôl—mae e wedi newid yn llwyr. I amddifadu pobl Cymru o'r gwelliant yna, rydw i'n meddwl, yn y cyrff sydd yn aros i gael y safonau—nid wyf yn gweld bod yna esgus am y peth, a dweud y gwir.
I think that the Minister would speak about using more of a carrot rather than a stick. But the truth is, the standards that have been imposed on the bodies hitherto have led to major change with very little work done by the commissioner and the Government. That is, it's a very easy way of creating change within the organisations. And in this time where there isn't a great deal of money available, we think that it would be silly for the Minister to stop that process that has been running well hitherto, accepting, of course, that there are weaknesses in the system. You can't compare the Welsh service that you receive from county councils today to what you received five years ago—it's been completely transformed. And to exclude people from that improvement, I think, in the bodies that are waiting to have standards imposed on them—I can't see that there's an excuse for doing that, quite frankly.
Beth ydych chi'n feddwl yw'r prif reswm? A ydych chi'n credu bod rhai o'r mudiadau yma neu'r cyrff yma yn cwyno am eu bod nhw yn rhoi gormod o onus arnyn nhw i newid? Mae'n rhaid bod hyn wedi dod o rywle yw beth rydw i'n trio ei ddeall ac nid wyf yn clywed yn ddigon clir gan y Llywodraeth beth yw'r prif deimlad y tu ôl i—. Efallai ei fod e'n fiwrocrataidd, ond wedyn mae pob Deddf, mewn ffordd, yn mynd i fod yn fiwrocrataidd ar ryw gorff neu'i gilydd. Felly, pam yn y maes yma mae e'n broblem eu bod nhw'n fiwrocrataidd? Dyna beth rydw i'n ei ffeindio'n anodd ei ddeall.
What do you think is the main reason? Do you believe that some of these organisations are complaining because they're placed under too great an onus to change? This must have come from somewhere—that's what I'm trying to understand—and I don't hear clearly enough from the Government what the main feeling behind this is. It might be overly bureaucratic, but then every piece of legislation is going to be bureaucratic for some organisation or other. So, why is it a problem that it's bureaucratic in this field? That what I find difficult to understand.
Mae Mesur 2011 yn rhoi mwy o rym. Mae e'n ffafrio'r defnyddiwr yn fwy na chwmnïau, felly mae'n hawdd iawn gweld pam na fyddai cwmnïau eisiau unrhyw newid neu fwy o safonau, yn bendant.
The 2011 Measure does gives greater powers. It does favour the user more than the companies, so it's very easy to see why companies wouldn't want any change or more standards to be imposed, certainly.
Rydw i'n credu, i fod yn deg â'r Gweinidog, ei bod hi wedi dweud y byddai'r safonau'n aros. Mater sydd, o dan y Mesur, yw ymhle'n union y byddai’r rheoleiddiwr yn cael ei leoli. A hefyd, rydw i'n credu bod y Gweinidog wedi dweud y byddai'r mater o lunio safonau pellach i'r sector preifat yn dod maes o law, a byddai hynny wedyn yn gallu bod yn faes allweddol iawn i gorff hyd braich i lunio safonau i’r sector preifat ac ehangu pan fydd yr adeg yn agos. Nid wyf i’n gweld bod yna anhawster mawr.
I believe, to be fair to the Minister, that she's said that the standards will remain. The matter under the new Bill would be where the regulator would be located. And also, I believe the Minister said that the matter of drafting further standards for the private sector would happen in due course, and that then could be a very significant task for an arm's-length body to actually do that for the private sector. So, I don't see that there's any great difficulty.
Mick.
I think that's answered it.
Okay. Caroline Jones.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. With regard to proposals for new legislation, I note some of the criticisms regarding the 2011 Measure. Cymdeithas yr Iaith published a paper stating that the legislation should focus less on the process and bureaucracy and more on the user's perspective, and the 176 standards, you say, are far too many for the public to remember, and Dyfodol believe that the narrowness of the Measure has stifled innovative plans and strategies to promote the Welsh language and you would like a more creative approach. So, based on these two examples, to what extent do you welcome the proposal for new legislation, bearing in mind that the Welsh standards commissioner—the Welsh Language Commissioner, sorry—states that she has yet to be convinced of the need for legislation to improve the way the Welsh language is to be promoted?
Diolch yn fawr am y cwestiwn. Ydw, rydw i’n credu bod y safonau wedi cyfyngu pethau yn yr ystyr bod y sylw wedi cael ei roi i’r safonau yn hytrach nag i faes cyffredinol cynllunio iaith. Os ŷch chi’n mynd ar ôl y gwreiddiau, rŷch chi’n dechrau gyda’r cartref, rŷch chi’n sôn am y gymuned, a dyna gwreiddiau cynllunio iaith ym mhob gwlad. Nid yw’r safonau’n ymwneud dim â’r cartref, prin eu bod nhw’n ymwneud dim â’r gymuned, ac felly mae angen dechrau meddwl: ai safonau neu hyrwyddo rŷch chi eu hangen yn y meysydd yna?
Dim ond yn ddiweddar mae’r Llywodraeth wedi cael cyllid o £2 filiwn y flwyddyn i ymwneud â gwaith hyrwyddo, sydd yn beth gwych iawn, wrth gwrs, a gobeithio y bydd hwnnw’n paratoi ar gyfer llawer mwy yn y dyfodol. Ond mae’n rhaid ichi allu cael corff allanol sydd â’r rhyddid i weithredu, sydd â’r rhyddid i arbrofi a rhyddid i fethu. Rydw i’n credu bod meddylfryd felly’n anodd i'w gael ymysg gweision sifil, sydd yn gorfod bod yn atebol i’r Gweinidog.
Yn yr ail le, mae gweision sifil, wrth gwrs, yn ymatebol, bob tro, i’r Gweinidog, ac mae’r Gweinidog yn gallu newid. Rydw i’n credu ein bod ni nawr ar ein trydydd Gweinidog Cymraeg mewn tair blynedd. Mi all blaid y Gweinidog newid. Felly, rydw i’n credu, i gael parhad mewn cynlluniau ieithyddol arbrofol, mae’n rhaid i hynny digwydd mewn corff allanol hyd braich a fydd yn gallu bod yn llawer mwy ystwyth, ond hefyd a fyddai â dyletswyddau statudol fel ymgynghorai statudol â dyletswyddau statudol i ddatblygu safonau mewn meysydd pellach, fel y sector preifat.
Thank you very much for that question. Yes, I believe that the standards have limited things in terms of the fact that the attention has been given to the standards rather than the general area of linguistic planning. If you go to the roots of this, then you'll talk about the home, you'll talk about the community, and those are the roots of language planning in every nation. The standards don't mention the home or the household at all, and they mention community very little, and so, then, one has to think: well, standards or promotion, which do you need in those particular areas?
Very recently, the Government has received funding of £2 million a year for promotional work, and I hope that that continues and will increase in future. But you do have to have an external body that has the freedom to act, to experiment and to fail, even. I think that that kind of mindset is very difficult for civil servants, who have to be accountable to the Minister.
In the second instance, civil servants, of course, are accountable, every time, to the Minister, and the Minister can change. I think we're on our third Welsh language Minister in three years. The party of the Minister can change as well. So, to have that continuity in terms of linguistic planning that is experimental in nature, that does need to happen in an external, arm's-length body that could be far more fleet of foot, but also would have statutory duties as a statutory consultee with statutory responsibilities to develop standards in further ares, such as the private sector.
I fynd nôl at nifer y safonau, beth rydym ni wedi dadlau amdano yw, petai gennym ni Lywodraeth sydd eisiau cryfhau’r Mesur, beth y byddwn i’n hoffi ei weld yw hawliau eglur, syml ar wyneb y Mesur—yn cael eu cefnogi gan nifer fawr o safonau, ond bod yr hawliau’n gwbl eglur—ac ymestyn y Mesur i ragor o’r sector preifat a chael comisiynydd mwy annibynnol. Ond beth sydd gennym ni gan y Llywodraeth yn y Papur Gwyn yma, yn anffodus, yw ymgais i gyfuno’r rheoleiddio yna â hybu, ymgais i wanhau llais y dinesydd ac, yn anffodus, cymhlethu’r gyfundrefn hyd yn oed yn fwy, achos nid yn unig y bydd gennym ni safonau, bydd gennym ni hefyd y cynlluniau iaith blaenorol ac mae’r Papur Gwyn hefyd yn sôn am ddyletswyddau cynllunio ieithyddol. So, bydd yna dri chategori o ddyletswydd ar wahanol gyrff mewn gwahanol gyfuniadau.
Nid ydym ni’n gweld bod bron dim byd sydd yn y Papur Gwyn yn mynd i wella pethau, a dweud y gwir. Felly, dyna pam rydym ni—. Mae Cymdeithas yr Iaith, ers i ni gael ein sefydlu 50 mlynedd yn ôl, wedi galw am Ddeddf iaith newydd yn aml iawn. Rydym ni mewn sefyllfa ryfedd iawn ar hyn o bryd, lle rydym ni’n dweud ‘dim diolch’ i Ddeddf iaith newydd, achos, am y tro cyntaf, yn lle cael Deddf sy’n cael ei chryfhau pob cenhedlaeth fel rydym ni wedi'i weld yn 1942, 1967, 1993 a 2011, mae gennym ni nawr Lywodraeth—. Mae’n torri eich calon chi. Mae gennym ni Lywodraeth yng Nghaerdydd sydd yn penderfynu, na, mae'n rhaid inni fynd am yn ôl. Dyna fel rydym ni'n gweld y Papur Gwyn yma. Felly, dyna pam rydym ni'n dweud, 'Na, peidiwch â deddfu am y tro.'
To return to the number of standards, what we have argued for is, if Wales had a Government that wanted to strengthen the Measure, what we would like to see is clear, simple rights on the face of the Measure—supported by a great number of standards, but that the rights would be completely clear—and then extending the Measure up to more of the private sector and having a more independent commissioner. But what we have from Government in this White Paper, unfortunately, is an attempt to combine regulation with promotion, an attempt to weaken the voice of the citizen, and, unfortunately, it makes the system even more complex, because not only do we have the standards, we have the previous language schemes and the White Paper also talks about language planning duties. So, there would be three categories of duty on different organisations in different combinations.
We don't see that anything in the White Paper will improve matters. That is why we are—. The Welsh Language Society, since its inception 50 years ago, has often been calling for a new language Act. We're in a very strange situation at present, where we're actually saying 'no thanks' to new legislation, because, for the first time, rather than having legislation that is strengthened every generation, as we saw in 1942, 1967, 1993 and 2011, we now have a Government—. It breaks your heart. We have a Government in Cardiff that is deciding, no, we have to take a retrograde step. That is how we view that White Paper. That is why we're saying, 'No, don't make any further legislation for the time being.'
I was concerned about the contradiction that you were saying 'no' to the White Paper, and yet you had criticisms here. So, you have explained that fully—your views on that—and it was good to take into account as well. It's important, rather, to take into account your saying that there needs to be more continuity regarding the Welsh language Minister, but I wouldn't know how we could quite do that, really. But it was a point that needs to be noted.
Dyna pam, rwy'n credu, ei bod yn sylfaenol bod gyda chi Ddeddf newydd yn rhoi hawliau statudol i gorff lled braich i ddatblygu'r maes, ac yn ymwneud â holl gylchoedd bywyd pobl, yn hytrach na'r peth cyfyng iawn sydd gyda ni yn y Ddeddf bresennol.
That's why, I think, it is fundamentally important that you do have new legislation that gives statutory rights to an arm's-length body to develop this area, and to be involved in all of people's circles of experience, rather than the limited thing that we have at present.
And the home is very important for the promotion of the Welsh language. My next question is: at this moment in time, what do you think the risks are with introducing new legislation now? Are there any risks that you foresee?
Rydw i'n meddwl mai'r risg yw bod yr un darn, fel roeddwn i'n ei ddweud, o'r jig-so sy'n gweithio yn weddol dda ar hyn o bryd yn cael ei atal. Fel y'i soniwyd, mae penderfyniad yn barod i arafu'r broses o gyflwyno'r safonau. Beth rydym ni'n ei deimlo yw bod modd sefydlu corff hybu heb addasu'r Mesur—bod modd rhoi llawer mwy o fuddsoddiad i mewn i hybu'r Gymraeg a mynd i'r afael â'r materion yna o ran cynllunio ieithyddol sydd angen eu gwneud. Y risg, rwy'n meddwl, yw—. Mae yna bobl yn cwyno wrthym ni yn barod am sefydliadau, ac yn dweud, 'Nid oes pwynt cwyno wrth y comisiynydd nawr, oes yna, mae'r safonau wedi stopio.' Mae'r Papur Gwyn ynddo'i hun wedi arafu pethau. Rydw i'n meddwl y peth diwethaf rydym ni ei eisiau yw treulio'r blynyddoedd nesaf yn—y peth diwethaf rydym ni ei eisiau yw treulio'r blynyddoedd nesaf yn brwydro'n erbyn y Llywodraeth wrth iddyn nhw geisio gwanhau'r ddeddfwriaeth yna pan fo gymaint mwy o bethau, boed hynny'n addysg Gymraeg, neu gynllunio, neu'r Gymraeg yn ardaloedd y gorllewin—. Ni ddylai hwn fod yn flaenoriaeth ac, mewn ffordd, fe fyddwn ni'n hoffi ei weld yn cael ei ollwng. Dyna ddiwedd y mater, rwy'n meddwl.
I think the risk is that the one piece of the jigsaw that is working relatively well at present will be stopped. As has already been said, there's already been a decision to slow down the process as regards the introduction of standards. What we feel is that it is possible to establish a promotional body without amending the Measure—it's possible to put a great deal more investment into promoting the Welsh language and to addressing the language planning issues that need to be dealt with. The risk, I think, is—. People are already complaining to us about institutions and organisations and saying, 'There's no point in complaining to the commissioner, because the standards have ceased.' The White Paper itself has slowed things down. I think that the last thing we want to do is spend the next few years battling the Government when they're trying to weaken that legislation when there are so many other things, whether that is Welsh language education, or planning, or the Welsh language in the western counties—. This shouldn't be a priority and, in a way, we would like to see this being dropped, and that's an end to it.
Could I just go back and ask a question? You say that the Welsh Government, it's a retrograde step in what they're producing, but you look at the same measures and you say they could still be in place, the same measures, under a different body. Did I catch that right?
Sori—
Sorry—
You say it was a—. Yes.
Rwy'n meddwl fy mod i'n deall y cwestiwn. Mae yna bethau o fewn y Mesur—. Mae yna bethau sy'n gallu cael eu gwneud o fewn y Mesur na fyddai angen deddfu arnyn nhw a fyddai'n cryfhau beth sydd gyda ni nawr, lle mae cynigion sydd yn y Papur Gwyn yn gwanhau pethau a mynd â ni nôl.
Ond y pwynt arall roeddwn i eisiau ei wneud oedd bod yr amser yma nawr yn mynd, yn cael ei ddefnyddio—. Gyda threfn sydd mor newydd—. Naw mis, mewn gwirionedd, mae'r safonau wedi bod mewn grym yn iawn—mae'n drefn mor newydd, mae rhywbeth bron yn rhyfedd amboutu meddwl am ddiwygio hi. A nawr mae'r amser yma yn cael ei ddefnyddio i drafod materion deddfwriaethol a, fel yr oedd Heini'n sôn, materion sy'n ymwneud â chylchoedd bach o fywyd pobl ac unigolion, ble gallai'r amser yma fod yn mynd at, efallai, yr hybu yna a phrojectau er mwyn cynyddu defnydd pobl o'r Gymraeg. Felly, mae e fel pe bai yn blaenoriaethu pethau—mae'n defnyddio amser, te, a allai fod yn cael ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer cryfhau sefyllfa'r Gymraeg ar lawr gwlad, mewn ffordd.
I think I understand the question. There are things within the Measure—. There are things that can be done within the Measure that wouldn't need to be legislated on that would strengthen what we have at present, whereas the proposals that are in the White Paper weaken things and take us on that retrograde step.
The other point that I want to make is that time is being lost now. With a regime that is so new—it's only nine months' old; that's how long the standards have been in force—. It's such a new regime that it's almost strange that we're thinking about amending the regime. This time is being used up to discuss issues that are legislative in nature and, as Heini said, they're issues related to very limited aspects of people's lives, whereas this time could be used on that promotion and projects to increase the use of the Welsh language amongst people. It's as if it priorities things—it uses time, then, that could be used to strengthen the situation of the Welsh language on the ground.
Finally, what do you think the potential impact on Welsh speakers' rights is from the introduction of new legislation?
Gallai fe fod yn bositif, pe bai'r Papur Gwyn yn bositif, ond beth sydd gennym ni yn y Papur Gwyn yw gwanhau hynny, rydw i'n meddwl. Mae gennym ni safonau ar hyn o bryd sy'n gallu cael eu gorfodi. Mae yna sôn am gadw'r system safonau ond cyflwyno system newydd o ddyletswyddau cynllunio ieithyddol, a disodli rhai o safonau’r gweithle. O'r hyn rydym ni'n ei ddeall gan weision sifil y Llywodraeth, ni fyddai unrhyw ffordd o orfodi'r dyletswyddau yna. Fel roeddwn i'n ei ddweud, mae yna ddryswch yn barod ynghylch pa hawliau sydd gennym ni. Rwy'n meddwl bod pobl yn teimlo, pan ddaeth y safonau i mewn, bod gennym ni fwy o hawliau, ac rwy'n meddwl bod y Papur Gwyn ynddo'i hunan wedi creu ansicrwydd ynghylch hynny. Ond petai cynigion y Papur Gwyn yn cael eu gweithredu, nid oes yna amheuaeth y byddai'n erydu ein hawliau ni, rydw i'n meddwl.
It could be positive, if the White Paper were positive, but what we have in the White Paper is a weakening of that, I think. We have standards at present that can be enforced. There's talk about retaining the standards system, but then also introducing a new system of language planning duties, and replacing some of the standards in the workplace. What we understand from the civil servants is that there wouldn't be any kind of enforcement of those duties. As I said, there is already confusion about what rights we do have. I think, when the standards were first introduced, people felt we did have more rights, and I think the White Paper in itself has created uncertainty about that. But if the proposals contained within the White Paper were implemented, there is no doubt that it would erode our rights, I think.
Ac ymhellach hefyd, gan fod y safonau yn beth mor newydd—. Ac nid ydyn nhw y peth rhwyddaf i berson ar y stryd. I bobl sydd wedi arfer â nhw, rŷm ni'n gallu'u deall nhw neu'n gallu eu dilyn nhw yn well. Ond i rhywun sydd jest eisiau gallu defnyddio gwasanaeth Gymraeg, mae safonau newydd yn dod mewn drwy'r amser ar gyrff gwahanol ac mae'r holl beth yn newydd. Felly, mae cael gwared ar system y mae pobl yn dechrau dod i arfer â hi, ac wedyn rhoi rhywbeth cwbl wahanol yn ei le—. Pe bai'n well, o bosib, ond hyd yn oed petai e'n cael yr un effaith, ac yn enwedig gan fod e'n cael effaith negyddol ac yn mynd â ni nôl, mae rhesymeg newid system mor newydd yn annealladwy.
And further to that, because the standards are so new—. And they're not the easiest thing for the person on the street to understand. For people who are used to them, we can perhaps understand them or can follow them. But for someone who just wants to be able to use a Welsh-medium service, there are new standards being imposed all the time on different organisations, and the whole regime is new. So, getting rid of a system that people are starting to get used to, and then putting something entirely new in place—. If it were better, perhaps, but even if it were to have the same effect, and particularly as it has that negative, retrograde effect, the rationale behind changing such a new system isn't understandable.
A gaf i fynegi barn ychydig bach yn wahanol? Rydw i'n credu bod gyda ni obsesiwn am hawliau. Mae yna risg y bydd colli momentwm trwy fynd at Ddeddf newydd, ond mae yna fanteision llawer ehangach o fynd â'r Gymraeg i faes pobl bob dydd. Mae'r hawliau—rydw i wedi eu cael nhw yn hynod, hynod o gymhleth. Rydw i wedi gofyn—. Roedd yna ddau achlysur pan ffoniais i'r comisiynydd i ofyn a oedd hawl—. Roedd rhywun wedi ymosod ar fab fy mrawd [cywiriad: ar fab fy ngwraig] ar y stryd, a gofynnais a oedd hawl gydag e i siarad Cymraeg â'r heddlu—hollol amhosib cael ateb oddi wrth y comisiynydd ar ôl mynd o gwmpas tair adran. Bryd arall, cysylltais i fy hunan ynglŷn â thrwydded gyrru car gyda'r DVLA. Ffoniais i'r comisiynydd, mynd o gwmpas tair adran—dim ateb, hollol amhosibl. Nawr te—hynod, hynod o gymhleth, hawliau yw e'n unig, nid yw'n ymwneud, mewn gwirionedd, â bywyd bob dydd, ac rydw i'n credu ei bod yn hen hen bryd inni feddwl am hawliau—. Popeth yn iawn am hawliau, ond mae'n hen bryd inni fynd â chynllunio ieithyddol yng Nghymru i'r gwreiddiau, gyda phwyslais ar y cartref, y gymuned, a rhoi hawliau cymunedol i'r Gymraeg. A dyna lle byddai corff hyd braich, statudol—ac mae angen Deddf bendant, fel sydd yn y ddeddf. Felly, rwy'n anghytuno.
May I express a slightly different viewpoint? I believe that we are obsessed with rights. There is a risk that there will be a loss of momentum by going for new legislation, but there are much broader advantages in taking the Welsh language into people's everyday lives. I've found the standards extremely complex. There were two occasions when I rang the commissioner to ask—. Somebody had attacked my nephew [correction: my wife's son] on the street, and I asked whether he had the right to speak Welsh to the police. It was completely impossible to get a response from the commissioner, having been sent around three different departments. Another time, I contacted about a driving licence. I rang the commissioner—three departments and no answer at the end of the day. It's extremely complex, it's just about rights, it doesn't appertain to everyday life, and I think it's high time that we think about rights—. Everything is fine with the rights side, but it's high time that we took language planning in Wales to the roots, with an emphasis on the home, the community, and giving community rights to the Welsh language. And that's where we would need a statutory arms'-length body, and new legislation, as in the legislation—. So, I disagree with them.
Ond dyna beth yw'ch gweledigaeth chi o beth y dylai'r Llywodraeth ei wneud, nid gweledigaeth y Llywodraeth—
But that's your vision of what the Government should do, not the Government's vision.
Fy ngweledigaeth i yw hynny, ie.
Yes, that's my vision.
Ie, dyna'r broblem. So, i mi, rydych chi'n dweud, ie, mae angen newid, ond, os nad yw'r Llywodraeth eisiau newid i'r perwyl hwnnw, onid oes problem y bydd yna lastwreiddio o'r hyn sydd yn bodoli ar hyn o bryd?
Yes, and that's the problem. So, you're saying that, yes, change is needed, but, if the Government doesn't want a change in that particular direction, isn't there a problem that there will be a dilution of what we have at present?
Wel, o'r hyn yr wyf wedi ei glywed, ac rwy'n mynd ar ei gair hi, mae'r Gweinidog yn dweud y bydd y safonau yn para. Ar ei gair hi, bydd modd i'r corff allanol ddatblygu safonau yn y sector preifat. A hefyd bydd y corff allanol yn gyfrifol am hyrwyddo ac am gynllunio ieithyddol, a byddai gan y corff allanol gyswllt agos ag adran y Gymraeg yn y Llywodraeth, ac wedyn, gobeithio, ddylanwad trawsadrannol. Mae'n rhaid inni ehangu'n meddylfryd ni am sut rydym ni'n meddwl am y Gymraeg ar draws y Llywodraeth, yn hytrach na bod pob un mewn rhyw focs bach yn gweithredu ar wahân, ac rwy'n credu mai dyna'r ffordd i'w wneud.
Well, from what I've heard, and I take her at her word, the Minister says that the standards will remain. And she says that it will be possible for the external body to develop standards in the private sector. And, also, the external body will be responsible for promotion and language planning, and the external body will have a close relationship with the Welsh language unit in the Government, and, hopefully, a cross-departmental influence. So, we have to broaden our minds about how we think about the Welsh language across the whole of Government, rather than thinking of it in separate silos, and I think that's the right approach.
A allaf i ddod yn ôl am eiliad? Rydw i'n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni edrych ar beth sydd yn y Papur Gwyn. Mae'r Papur Gwyn yn ei gwneud hi'n gwbl glir nad oes bwriad gan y Llywodraeth i osod safonau ar gyrff sydd ddim yn dod o fewn cwmpawd y safonau ar hyn o bryd. Felly dyna sydd i lawr ar bapur ym Mhapur Gwyn y Llywodraeth. O ran hawliau, rydym ni'n credu eu bod nhw'n bwysig. Rwy'n meddwl bod yr holl gyd-destun gwleidyddol yng Nghymru yn awgrymu bod hawliau yn bwysig, nid dim ond ym maes y Gymraeg, ond meysydd yn gyffredinol. Nid ydym ni'n derbyn nad yw hawliau'n bwysig. Rydym yn cytuno, wrth gwrs, fod llawer iawn mwy sydd angen ei wneud heblaw hawliau, ond rydw i'n meddwl mai beth yr ydym ni'n ei deimlo yw bod modd cyflawni llawer o hynny heb ddatgymalu'r system sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd, y system newydd sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd, o ddechrau gosod hawliau i'r Gymraeg. Ac felly nid ydym ni yn gweld—
Can I come back on that? I think we have to look at what is in the White Paper. The White Paper makes it entirely clear that the Government has no intention of imposing standards on bodies that don't come under the auspices of the standards regime at present. So, that's what's in the White Paper. In terms of rights, we believe that they are important. We believe that the entire political context in Wales suggests that rights are important, not just with regard to Welsh language, but in general. We don't accept that rights aren't important. We agree, of course, that there is a great deal more to be done, but we think that much of that can be achieved without breaking down the system that we have at present, this new system we have now, of starting to impose standards and rights for the Welsh language. And so we don't see—
Nid ydych chi'n gweld mantais, fel y mae Heini yn ei ddisgrifio fe, yn eithaf positif, a gweld y byddai yna newidiadau positif yn gallu dod o'r Papur Gwyn.
You don't see the advantages that Heini is describing quite positively, and that positive changes could come from the White Paper.
Rwy'n gweld bod y meddwl ddim yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd, nid yn y Llywodraeth na gan y comisiynydd, a bod yn rhaid inni gael meddwl gwreiddiol, creadigol ar sut y mae'r Gymraeg yn mynd i ddatblygu o fewn egwyddorion cynllunio iaith sydd wedi eu derbyn ledled y byd erbyn hyn.
That thinking is not currently happening, not in the Government or from the commissioner. I think that we need to have that creative thinking about how the Welsh language is going to develop according to linguistic planning principles that are accepted worldwide.
Dai Lloyd.
Dai Lloyd.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. Mae hyn yn ddiddorol iawn, ac, wrth gwrs, mae'r rhan fwyaf o'r grŵp o gwestiynau sydd wedi'u clustnodi wedi cael eu hateb yn rhannol, os nad eu hateb yn llawn. Felly, bwriad y pwyllgor hwn—fe fyddwn ni'n cynhyrchu adroddiad ar ddiwedd y dydd, ar yr ymchwiliad yma i mewn i sut i hybu'r Gymraeg a chefnogi'r Gymraeg yn y cyd-destun deddfwriaethol sydd ohoni ar hyn o bryd. Rydym ni'n craffu ar sut y mae Mesur 2011 wedi gweithio neu ddim wedi gweithio, ac wedyn mae'ch atebion chi wedi bod yn bwysig yn hynny o beth.
Ond, wrth gwrs, mae'r ddeddfwriaeth newydd arfaethedig yma o'n blaenau ni hefyd ac, wrth gwrs, beth sydd yn fanna ydy bwriad y Llywodraeth—a dyna beth sydd i lawr ar ddu a gwyn ydy bwriad y Llywodraeth. Fe fedrwch chi ddweud bod hwnnw'n feddylfryd a fuasai'n gallu cael ei ehangu ai peidio, ac mae pobl eisiau grymuso rhai agweddau neu beidio, ond yn y bôn, gweledigaeth y Llywodraeth a beth sydd i lawr ar ddu a gwyn rŵan ydy beth sydd yn y ddeddfwriaeth newydd yna. Felly, cytuno neu anghytuno efo beth sydd i lawr ar ddu a gwyn rŵan sydd yn cyfri yn fanna.
Ond yn nhermau ni'n trio dod ag argymhellion gerbron, fel pwyllgor trawsbleidiol, i'r Llywodraeth eu gweithredu o hyn ymlaen—sut maen nhw'n mynd ymlaen. Rwy'n licio'r dadansoddi sy'n mynd ymlaen. Nid wyf yn credu bod yna ryw anghytuno mawr, mae'n rhaid imi ei ddweud ynglŷn â—. Rwy'n credu bod hawliau yn hanfodol bwysig, mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, achos heb hawl, nid oes gennych ddim byd. Rwy'n derbyn beth rwyt ti'n ei ddweud, Heini, yn naturiol, ynglŷn â statws cydradd i'r Gymraeg a'r Saesneg, ond ar lefel unigolyn, nid yw hynny'n bod, ydyw e? Efallai ei fod wedi ei grisialu mewn deddfwriaeth, ond os ydw i'n cerdded i mewn i siop ac eisiau siarad Cymraeg efo rhywun, nid yw hynny'n mynd i ddigwydd, ydyw e? Efallai na fyddai hyd yn oed yn digwydd yng Nghaernarfon, ond mae'n anodd iawn ei ffeindio fo yng nghanol Abertawe, oni bai fy mod yn adnabod y person.
Felly, rydw i'n deall y pethau ynglŷn â haenau uchel ac ati, ond hefyd y gweithredu sy'n gorfod mynd ymlaen. Ond, yn y bôn, beth sydd o'n blaenau ni ydy penderfyniad y Llywodraeth: nhw sy'n llywodraethu; eu gweledigaeth nhw sydd yn mynd i gario'r dydd ar ddiwedd y dydd. Mae yna weledigaethau amgen. Yn naturiol, mae gen i weledigaeth amgen. Mae gennych chi weledigaethau gwahanol hefyd. Ond beth sydd ar y bwrdd ydy'r ddeddfwriaeth newydd yna sydd wedi'i chrisialu mewn Papur Gwyn, fel rydych chi wedi'i ailadrodd. Felly, gyda chymaint â hynny o ragymadrodd, mewn byd delfrydol—. Achos mae gennym ni'r hawl yn fan hyn, fel pwyllgor, i roi syniadau i'r Llywodraeth i gael ychydig bach mwy o weledigaeth glir na'r hyn sydd ganddyn nhw ar hyn o bryd. So, dyma'r llwyfan—eich cyfle—i fod yn gwyntyllu rhai o'r rheini.
Nid wyf am ailadrodd y busnes ynglŷn â newidiadau strwythurol, achos rwy'n credu ein bod ni wedi bod trwy hynny ac rwy'n derbyn y ddadl fod angen grymuso'r Llywodraeth—mae angen cael Llywodraeth yn fan hyn sydd yn wirioneddol gredu mewn hawliau cyfartal a'r gweithredu cymunedol yna ac ati. Dylem ni fod yn cael Llywodraeth sydd yn meddwl yn naturiol fel yna, ond wrth gwrs, yn absenoldeb hynny, mae'n rhaid i ni gael rhyw fath o ddeddfwriaeth. Roeddwn i'n licio beth yr oedd David Melding yn ei ddweud ynglŷn â'r strwythurau. Nid wyf yn credu bod rhyw lot fawr o anghytuno, ond yn nhermau beth sy'n mynd i weithio, dyna rwyf eisiau ei weld, achos rwy'n edrych ar fy ŵyr bach i rŵan, sydd newydd gael ei eni, ac mae o'n mynd i dyfu i fyny mewn Cymru lle bydd o'n disgwyl defnyddio ei Gymraeg hefyd. Ac rwyf eisiau ei weld yn defnyddio ei Gymraeg gyda hawl cyfartal i ddefnyddio ei Saesneg, yn naturiol, a'i Ffrangeg, achos bydd yn dysgu'r ieithoedd hynny hefyd—hawliau naturiol cyfartal. Felly, gyda chymaint â hynny o lwyfan, sut y mae cynllunio ieithyddol cymunedol—? Mae'r holl brofiad o rownd y byd. Beth sydd yn gweithio?
Thank you, Chair. This is very interesting, and, of course, most of the group of questions that have been allocated have been partially answered, if not fully answered. So, the intention of this committee is to produce a report, ultimately, on this inquiry into promotion and support for the Welsh language in the current legislative context. We are scrutinising how the 2011 Measure has worked, or otherwise, and so your replies and answers have been very useful in helping with that.
But we have this proposed new legislation before us and, of course, what we have there is the Government's intent, in black and white—it's the Government's intent. You could say that that is a mindset that could be enhanced or not, and some people would wish to strengthen some elements or not, but basically, it's the Government's thinking and what's in black and white at present is what will be included in that new legislation. So, what counts there is agreeing or not agreeing with what is in black and white at present.
But in terms of us, as a cross-party committee, bringing recommendations forward for the Government to implement in future—how they go forward. I like the analysis that's going on. I don't think there's great disagreement, I must say on—. I believe that rights are extremely important, because without rights, you've got nothing. I accept what you say, Heini, about equal status for both Welsh and English, but on an individual level, that doesn't exist, does it? It might be crystalised in legislation, but if I walk into a shop and I want to speak Welsh to somebody, that's not going to happen, is it? It might not even happen in Caernarfon, but it's very difficult to find it in the centre of Swansea, unless I happen to know that person.
So, I do understand what you're saying about high levels and so on, and also the action on the ground as well. But, basically, what we have before us is the Government's decision: they're in Government and their vision will carry the day. There are alternative visions. Naturally, I have an alternative vision, as have you. But what we have on the table is that new legislation that has been summarised in the White Paper, as you've said. So, with that much of a preamble, may I ask: in an ideal world—? Because here, as a committee, we have the right to give Government ideas to give them a clearer vision than they have at present. So, here is your opportunity—your platform—to air these ideas.
I don't want to repeat the business about structural changes, because I believe we've rehearsed those sufficiently and I accept the argument that we need to empower the Government—we need to have a Government here that is completely persuaded of equal rights and community action and so on. We should have a Government that thinks naturally about those kinds of things, but, of course, in the absence of that, we must have some kind of legislation. I like what David Melding said about the structures. I don't think there's a great deal of disagreement, but in terms of what will work, that is what I want to see, because I look at my newborn grandson and he will grow up in a Wales where he will expect to be able to use his Welsh language too. I want him to have the right to do that and the right to use English and also French, because he'll be learning those languages too—natural equal rights. So, given that platform, how will community language planning—? There is all the global experience. What works?
Mae Dai yn y Siambr, rwy'n credu, nawr.
Dai has just given us a speech there. He thinks he's in the Chamber.
Mae yna enghreifftiau yng Nghanada, wrth gwrs. Mae yna wahanol daleithiau yng Nghanada, lle mae arbrofion wedi digwydd. Os ewch chi i Quebec, mae'r pwyslais ar y Ffrangeg—mae'n rhaid ichi ddefnyddio'r Ffrangeg yn eich siop, ar arwyddion siop ac yn y blaen. Mae New Brunswick wedyn yn gweithredu'n fwy dwyieithog—efallai yn fwy tebyg i'r hyn y byddem ni yn ei wneud—ond mae yna Ddeddf iaith gyffredinol ar draws Canada hefyd sydd yn rhoi statws i'r ddwy iaith: Ffrangeg a Saesneg.
Os ewch chi wedyn i Wlad y Basgiaid a Chatalwnia, efallai achos eu bod nhw wedi dioddef erledigaeth enfawr o dan Franco, fe aethon nhw ati yn sydyn, sydyn i greu Deddfau iaith ac i gael systemau yn y Llywodraeth a fyddai'n hyrwyddo hynny. Mae gyda chi yng Nghatalwnia rhyw 100 o aelodau sy'n perthyn i awdurdod iaith yn y Llywodraeth. Mae gyda chi 100 o bobl wedyn yn datblygu o fewn is-systemau yng Ngwlad y Basgiaid, yn yr un modd bod yr iaith yn ganolog i weithredoedd y Llywodraeth, bod ymwneud â dysgu'r iaith, yn bennaf i oedolion, bod hynny'n cael ei gryfhau wrth fod y system addysg yn cael ei thrawsnewid hefyd, ac wrth bod yn rhaid i weision sifil siarad y Fasgeg.
Mewn gwirionedd, rydych chi'n sôn am bethau mawr iawn, iawn, sydd ddim yn agos at ddigwydd yng Nghymru. Pe bai chi'n meddwl am y ffordd ddelfrydol yng Nghymru, fe fyddech chi am 20 mlynedd yn gwneud dod â'r Gymraeg yn hyfyw yn brif weithgaredd y Llywodraeth. Heb hynny, rwy'n ofni mai llusgo ar ei hôl hi fyddwn ni. Nid yw'r syniad sydd yn y Mesur yn dod yn agos at yr hyn y byddwn i am ei weld, ond rwy'n credu ei fod yn rhoi modd ichi ddatblygu, drwy gorff allanol, yr arbenigedd mewn cynllunio iaith a fyddai'n gallu rhoi gwybodaeth i'r holl Lywodraeth ar y ffordd ymlaen, achos nid ydym ni'n agos at hynny nawr.
There are examples in Canada. There are different provinces in Canada, where experiments have taken place. If you go to Quebec, the emphasis is on French—you have to use French in your shop and on signs in the shop, and so on. New Brunswick then operates more bilingually—in a similar fashion to the way that we would operate—but there is a general language Act across Canada that gives equal status to both languages: English and French.
If you go to the Basque Country and Catalunya, perhaps because they suffered great persecution under Franco, they created language Acts and put systems in place within Government that would promote those languages, and they did that very quickly. In Catalunya, you have around 100 members who belong to the language authority within the Government. You then have 100 people developing in sub-systems in the Basque Country, in the same manner so that the language is at the heart of the Government's activities, particularly with regard to teaching the language, mainly to adults, and that is strengthened as the education system is transformed as well, and civil servants have to be able to speak the Basque language.
In fact, you're talking about major things that aren't anywhere near happening in Wales. If you think about the ideal way forward in Wales, you would make the viability of the Welsh language the main activity of the Government's work for the next 20 years. Without that, I fear that we will be lagging behind. The idea in the Measure doesn't come anywhere near what I would like to see, but it gives you the opportunity to develop, through an external body, the expertise within language planning that would provide information to the Government as a whole on the way forward, because we're nowhere near that at the moment.
Fe fyddwn i'n dweud, a derbyn y pwynt sydd wedi cael ei wneud, mai mater o un maes bach yw'r hawliau yma a'r rheoliadau a'r safonau. Beth fyddem ni eisiau—rydych chi'n gofyn beth rydym ni eisiau yn ddelfrydol—fyddai symud i faes arall. Os oes amser deddfu ar gael, Deddf addysg Gymraeg sydd ei hangen. Mae angen gosod hawl i addysg Gymraeg mewn deddfwriaeth a chamau i sicrhau dros amser fod holl bobl ifanc Cymru yn gadael yr ysgol yn hyderus eu Cymraeg. Fe fyddai hynny'n gweddnewid—. Yr unig ffordd, mewn gwirionedd, o gyrraedd 1 miliwn yw cynnydd sylweddol yn faint o blant sy'n—
I would say, accepting the point that has been made, these rights and regulations and standards are just one small area. What we would want—you're asking what our ideal would be—would be to move to another field. If there is legislative time available, a Welsh language education Act is required. There is a need to set the right to a Welsh language education in legislation and steps to ensure over time that every young person in Wales leaves school able to speak Welsh confidently. That would transform—. The only way to reach 1 million Welsh speakers is to significantly increase the number of children—
Mae eisiau i ti fod tipyn bach yn realistig, yn yr ystyr bod y nifer o athrawon sy'n cael eu hyfforddi ar hyn o bryd yn cwympo—mae'n cwympo ar draws Prydain, mae'n cwympo yng Nghymru. Os ydych chi'n gofyn am ddiwygio'r holl system addysg yng Nghymru yn sydyn, mae'n rhaid ichi fesur faint o athrawon sydd eu hangen—rydych chi yn y degau o filoedd—ac mae'n rhaid ichi ddarparu cyrsiau iaith ar eu cyfer nhw. Hynny yw, mae'n waith ar gyfer 20 mlynedd, 30 mlynedd.
You do have to be realistic, because the number of teachers being trained at the moment is declining—across Wales and the UK. If you're talking about suddenly reforming the education system in Wales as a whole, you have to measure how many teachers are needed—that's in the tens of thousands—and you need to provide language courses for them. It's work for 20 to 30 years hence.
Rwy'n meddwl mai'r cwestiwn oedd beth fyddem ni eisiau yn ddelfrydol. Felly, dyna beth roeddwn i'n ateb. [Chwerthin.] Ond, rydym ni hefyd yn pwyso ar Lywodraeth Cymru i gynyddu faint sy'n cael eu hyfforddi drwy'r Gymraeg achos rydym ni'n gwybod bod yna brinder athrawon yn barod. O dderbyn mai'r unig ffordd o gyrraedd 1 miliwn yw cynnydd mawr mewn addysg Gymraeg, wrth gwrs wedyn, oes, mae angen buddsoddiad helaeth er mwyn sicrhau bod gennym ni athrawon sy'n gallu dysgu drwy'r Gymraeg. Y gwir yw, wrth gwrs, mae gyda ni lawer o athrawon sy'n gallu siarad Cymraeg yn y sector Saesneg sydd ddim yn hyderus i ddefnyddio eu Cymraeg. Mae yna lawer o quick wins, fel byddai cadeirydd ein grŵp addysg ni'n eu galw. Mae llawer o bethau sydd angen eu gwneud, ond nid yw'r gwaith yna'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd yn y Llywodraeth. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae'n rhaid iddo fe ddigwydd os ydym ni eisiau cyrraedd 1 miliwn.
The question was what our ideal would be. So, that's what I was answering. [Laughter.] But, we're also putting pressure on Welsh Government to increase the number of teachers being trained through the medium of Welsh because we know there's already a scarcity of teachers. Accepting that the only way to reach 1 million speakers is a big increase in Welsh language education, of course then, yes, we need substantial investment to ensure that we have teachers able to teach through the medium of Welsh. The truth is that we have many teachers who can speak Welsh who are working in the English sector who aren't confident in using their Welsh. There are many quick wins, as the chair of our education group would call them. There is a great deal that could be done, but that work isn't being done at present within Government. But, it has to happen if we want to attain 1 million speakers.
Wrth gwrs, ni fyddem ni'n disgwyl i unrhyw beth ddigwydd dros nos. Drwy gyfeirio at gynnydd mewn addysg Gymraeg, nid ydym ni'n dweud, 'Reit, dydd Llun, bydd pob ysgol drwy Gymru yn dysgu drwy'r Gymraeg.' Yn yr un ffordd, rwy'n cytuno bod angen i'r Llywodraeth a'r Cynulliad fod yn gweinyddu drwy'r Gymraeg, ond ni fyddech chi'n gallu dweud, 'Reit, dydd Llun, ni'n gweithio drwy'r Gymraeg.' Maen nhw'n bethau sy'n gorfod digwydd dros amser, ac mae yna le i'r cyrff cyhoeddus yma arwain y ffordd.
Rwy'n cyfeirio nôl eto at sir Gâr achos bod profiad personol gyda fi. Rwy'n gwybod ein bod ni'n eu hannog nhw. Wrth drafod, rŷm ni'n dweud mai proses dros amser yw hi, ond mae'n bwysig dechrau ar y broses yna. Os ydych chi'n ei roi e off, chi byth yn mynd i ddechrau, chi byth yn mynd i gyrraedd. Felly, mae eisiau dechrau'r broses yna, a gosod y bwriad. Nid, 'Fe wnawn ni gamau bach', ond, 'Reit, ni'n mynd i'w wneud e; ni ddim yn mynd i'w wneud e dros nos, ond ni'n mynd i'w wneud e', a rhoi cyfnod penodol. So, fe fyddwn i'n dweud, mewn byd delfrydol, ein bod ni yn dweud, 'Reit, dyma beth ni'n anelu ato', a bod gyda ni amserlen i weithio tuag at hynny.
Of course, we wouldn't expect anything to happen overnight. With regard to increasing the availability of Welsh language education, we're not saying, 'Right, Monday, all schools throughout Wales will teach through the medium of Welsh.' In the same way, I agree that we need the Government and the Assembly to be administered through the medium of Welsh, but you can't say, 'Right, on Monday we'll be operating solely through the Welsh language.' These are things that have to happen over time, and these public institutions can lead the way in this regard.
I keep coming back to Carmarthenshire because I have personal experience of it. I know that we encourage them. In discussions, we say that it's a process over time, but it's important to start that process . If you put it off, if you don't start, you're never going to reach your destination. So, you do have to start that process, and set the intention. Not just say, 'We're going to take tiny baby steps', but, 'Right, we are going to do it; we're not going to do it overnight, but we are going to do it', and set out a specific period of time. So, I'd say, in an ideal world, we would say, 'Right, this is what we're aiming for', and we would have a specific timetable to work to.
Rwy'n sylweddoli, Gadeirydd, nad oes gyda ni amser i athronyddu, fel buaswn i'n dymuno gwneud, ynglŷn â dyfodol ein hiaith gynhenid ni'n hunain yn ein Senedd gynhenid ni'n hunain. Ond, fe wnaf i symud ymlaen at nid jest y byd delfrydol ond byd lle dylai pethau fod yn digwydd rŵan, sef y pŵer i ymestyn unrhyw hawl ieithyddol i'r sector breifat. Roeddwn i mewn archfarchnad weddol amlwg yn Abertawe rhyw flwyddyn neu ddwy yn ôl. Y tu allan i le roeddech yn talu am eich bwydydd, roedd yna fwrdd mawr yn cyhoeddi, yn uniaith Saesneg, 'All our local food produce comes from every region of England.' Roedd hynny wedi cael ei bwysleisio: 'England'. Wrth gwrs, roeddem ni yng Nghymru, yn naturiol. Wedyn, roedd yn rhaid i rywun fel yr Aelod Cynulliad lleol ysgrifennu at y tipyn archfarchnad yma i'w darbwyllo nhw o'r ffaith eu bod nhw yng Nghymru, ac efallai buasent yn licio cael arwyddbost a oedd o leiaf yn ddwyieithog, a hefyd yn gwarantu eu bod nhw'n cael eu bwydydd lleol o wahanol ranbarthau o Gymru—mi fuasai hynny'n neis. I fod yn deg i'r archfarchnad di-hysbys yma, fe newidiwyd o leiaf yr hysbysfwrdd yma o fewn pythefnos. Ond, nid oes gan bawb yr amser neu'r meddylfryd i wneud hynny. So, yn nhermau hynny, rheoleiddio ynteu annog sy'n mynd i weithio yn y sector breifat? Rwy'n gwybod beth rydw i'n ei feddwl. Beth ydych chi'n ei feddwl?
I realise, Chair, that we don't have time to philosophise, as I would wish to do, about the future of our own native language in our own native Senedd. But, to move on, not just to the ideal world, but to the world where things should be happening now, namely the power to extend any language entitlement or right to the private sector. I was in quite a well-known supermarket in Swansea a couple of years ago. Where you pay for your food, there was a huge board announcing, in English only, 'All our local food produce comes from every region of England.' The 'England' had been emphasised. Of course, we were in Wales, so somebody such as the local Assembly Member had to write to said supermarket to persuade them that they were in Wales, and perhaps they would like to have a sign that was at least bilingual, and could also guarantee that they got their local foods from the various regions of Wales—that would be nice. To be fair to the anonymous supermarket, their sign was changed within a fortnight. But, not everybody has the time or the inclination to do that. So, in terms of that, which is it? Is it going to be regulation or promotion that will work in private sector? I know what I think. What do you think?
Yn bendant, rheoleiddio. Nid oes os am hynny, achos mae yna lot o gwmnïau yn y sector breifat sy'n dweud, 'Oni bai bod deddfu, ni ddim yn mynd i wneud, heblaw bod yn rhaid inni.' Mae hynny'n wir mewn cymaint o feysydd eraill. Os ydym ni'n edrych ar Ddeddfau lled ddiweddar sy'n dweud bod yn rhaid cael mynediad ar gyfer cadeiriau olwyn, roedd yna lot o lefydd nad oedd cadeiriau olwyn yn gallu mynd atyn nhw hyd nes bod Deddf. Nawr bod yn rhaid, rŷch chi'n gallu gwneud. Mae cwmnïau yn gweld eu profit margins ac maen nhw'n gweld y Gymraeg fel cost. Wrth gwrs, nid oes cost i greu arwydd. Os ŷch chi'n creu arwydd, rŷch chi'n creu arwydd. Nid ydych yn creu arwydd Saesneg ac arwydd Cymraeg, ond mae honno'n ddadl arall.
Mae Comisiynydd y Gymraeg ei hun wedi dweud bod banciau wedi dweud wrthi hi, 'Byddwn ni ddim yn gwneud mwy nes bod gofyn inni wneud.' Mae gyda ni dystiolaeth oddi wrth archfarchnad arall—efallai mai'r un un yw hi—sydd wedi dweud, 'Ni ddim yn mynd i ddarparu arwyddion Cymraeg achos does dim rhaid inni. Does dim rheidrwydd i wneud.' Mae yna gwmni ynni hefyd wedi dweud—yn waeth byth, a dweud y gwir—eu bod yn disgwyl dod o dan y safonau ond nid ydynt yn siŵr beth sy'n digwydd gyda hynny ar hyn o bryd, so nid ydynt yn mynd i ddatblygu unrhyw beth nes eu bod nhw'n gwybod mwy. Ie, mae'n eithaf amlwg o du'r sector breifat nad oes bwriad gyda nhw. Rŷm ni wedi gweld, profiad blynyddoedd—. Rŷch chi siŵr o fod wedi bod yn siopa yn y siop yna ers blynyddoedd a blynyddoedd. Pan wnaethon nhw agor, fe wnaethon nhw agor siŵr o fod yn uniaith Saesneg. Mae yna siopau nawr sy'n agor yn uniaith Saesneg. Felly, nid ydynt—. Ie, rydw i'n meddwl bod digon o brawf yn dangos nad ydyn nhw'n mynd i newid heblaw bod gorfodaeth.
Regulation, definitely. There's no doubt about that because there are many companies in the private sector that would say, 'Unless there's legislation, we're not going to do anything unless we have to.' That's true in so many other areas as well. If you look at recent legislation that said that there must be wheelchair access. There were many places that wheelchair users couldn't access until there was legislation. Now, they have to be able to have access. Companies see their profit margins and they see the Welsh language as a cost. But, of course, there is no cost to creating a sign. If you're creating a sign, you're creating a sign. You're not creating a Welsh sign and an English sign, but that's another argument.
The Welsh Language Commissioner herself has said that banks have said to her, 'Well, we won't do anything more until we are required to do so.' We have evidence from another supermarket—perhaps the same supermarket—that said, 'Well, we're not going to provide signs through the medium of Welsh because we don't have to. We're not required to do so.' There's an energy company that's said—even worse—that they expect to come under the standards but they are not entirely sure what's going to happen with that, so they're not developing anything until they know more. So, it's clear that the private sector has no intention. We've seen experience over years—. You've probably been shopping in that store for years and years. When they opened, they opened monolingually in English. There are shops that are still opening monolingually in English. So, I think there is plenty of evidence to show that they are not going to change unless they are required to do so.
Felly, rŷm ni o blaid ymestyn y ddeddfwriaeth iaith, yn y man, i ragor o'r sector breifat. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae yna rannau o'r sector breifat sy'n dod o dan gwmpas y Mesur yma, a dim ond penderfyniad gwleidyddol gan y Gweinidog sy'n atal hynny rhag digwydd. Rŷch chi'n gwybod, y cyfleustodau, y gwasanaethau trafnidiaeth, telathrebu, mae'r rheini i gyd yn feysydd y mae pobl yn eu defnyddio bob dydd, ac rŷm ni gyd yn gwybod pa mor wael—. Fel yr oedd Bethan yn ei ddweud, mae ein haelodau ni'n cwyno wrth y cwmnïau yma yn gyson, ac yn anfon yr ymatebion ymlaen atom ni. Yn y bôn, mae'r cyrff yma'n dweud yn blaen, 'Wnawn ni ddim gwneud dim byd tan bod yn rhaid inni.' Wrth gwrs, felly, mae'n rhaid inni ddeddfu arnyn nhw.
So, we are in favour of extending the language legislation in due course to more of the private sector. But, of course, there are parts of the private sector that fall under the remit of this legislation, and it's only a decision from the Minister that is stopping that from happening. The utilities, transport services, telecommunications are all areas that people use every day, and we all know how poor they are in providing Welsh services. As Bethan was saying, our members complain to these companies regularly, and they send on the responses to us. These companies just reply and say, 'We won't do anything until we have to.' Of course, therefore, we have to legislate in respect of them.
Rwy'n credu ein bod ni wedi bod bron yn yr unfan gyda'r siopau yma, er bod yna ddatblygu. Os ydych chi'n mynd i siopau'r Co-op, Cymraeg yn unig sydd o flaen siopau'r Co-op. Yn siopau Lidl fe gewch chi gaws Cymraeg. Pob cynnyrch Cymraeg, mae'n ddwyieithog gyda nhw, felly mae yna symud mawr wedi digwydd o ran hyrwyddo, ac mae eisiau mynd â hynny ymhellach. Ond, 35 mlynedd yn ôl, fe wnes i ysgrifennu rhyw lyfr bach Cymraeg i ddysgwyr, Welcome to Welsh, ac yn y llyfr hwnnw roedd lluniau o arwyddion dwyieithog yn Tesco. Wel, rŷm ni ar yr un llinell; hynny yw, rŷm ni'n sôn am arwyddion o hyd, ac rŷm ni'n sôn—. Wel, dyna fe. Mae hi wedi gwella, wrth gwrs. Pe baech chi hyd yn oed yn deddfu, byddech yn dal i sôn, o bosibl, am arwyddion. Wel, popeth yn iawn, ond mae'n rhaid ichi rywle fynd i'r afael â siarad y Gymraeg yn y sefyllfaoedd yma.
Gofynnais i'r comisiynydd iaith bum mlynedd yn ôl a fyddai hi'n dechrau ymgyrch gyda chaffis a siopau, fel eu bod nhw'n gallu dangos arwydd ar flaen y siop yn dweud bod posibilrwydd o siarad Cymraeg yn y siop. Dim o gwbl. Mae'n rhaid i chi fynd i'r afael â hynny. A ydy hynny'n dod drwy hyrwyddo neu ddeddfu? Nid wyf i'n siŵr. Ond yn bendant, mae'n rhaid ichi gael safonau ar gyfer y sector preifat. Ac rwy'n credu y gallech gyfiawnhau hynny. Heb yr hyrwyddo sydd wedi digwydd, a gwneud y Gymraeg bron yn iaith normal i'w gweld, byddai fe'n anodd ichi fynd y cam pellach a deddfu a dod â safonau. Ond rwy'n credu ein bod ni wedi mynd digon ar hyd y daith o weld y Gymraeg ac mae eisiau mynd y cam nesaf i sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn iaith sy'n cael ei defnyddio. Ac efallai drwy safonau mae'r ffordd ymlaen.
I think that we've been at a standstill with these shops, even though there has been development. If you go to the Co-op, their signs are in Welsh alone in some stores. In Lidl, you will have Welsh cheese. There's all sorts of Welsh produce and you'll have bilingual signs, so there has been some movement, and we do need to take that further. But, 35 years ago, I wrote a Welsh language book for learners, Welcome to Welsh, and in that book there were pictures of bilingual signs in Tesco. Well, we're on the same course; we're still talking about signs. Well, there we have it. Things have improved, of course. If you legislated, you would still be talking about signs possibly. Well, that's okay, but at some point you have to get to grips with speaking the Welsh language in these situations.
I asked the language commissioner whether she would start a campaign with cafes and shops to display a sign in the the window to say that it would be possible to speak Welsh in the shop or the cafe. Not at all. You do have to get to grips with that. And I don't know whether that's through promotion or legislation. But, certainly, you do need to have standards for the private sector. And I think that you could justify that. Without the promotion that's happened, and making the Welsh almost a normal language to be seen, it would be difficult for you to take that step further and to legislate and to bring in standards. But I think that we've gone far enough along this path of seeing the Welsh language and we need then to take that next step to ensure that the Welsh language is used. And that might be best done through standards.
Ie, yn bendant, byddwn i'n cytuno â hynny. Ac un ffordd efallai i helpu i fynd i'r afael gyda hynny yw—. O brofiad gyda sawl gwahanol archfarchnad, nid oes yna swyddfeydd gyda, nid wyf i'n meddwl, dim un o'r prif archfarchnadoedd yng Nghymru. Mae eu pencadlys nhw yn Lloegr yn rhywle. Mae gyda nhw swyddfeydd rhanbarthol ac yn aml maen nhw'n rhannu Cymru. Mae gogledd Cymru yn cael ei ystyried yn north-west neu rywbeth ac rwy'n gwybod bod Caerfyrddin, hyd yn oed, yn south-west and south-west Wales, neu the south west and Wales neu rywbeth tebyg. Felly, rydym ni wedi gofyn i gwmnïau i symud fel bod swyddfa ranbarthol gyda nhw yng Nghymru a byddai yna ryw gydnabyddiaeth wedyn a rhyw ddealltwriaeth. Mae'r swyddogion wedyn rydym ni'n cwrdd â nhw, achos eich bod chi’n cwrdd â phobl sy'n rheoli yn hytrach na gweithio yn y siopau—nid ydyn nhw'n gyfarwydd â Chymru, nid ydyn nhw, efallai, wedi sylweddoli, bron, fod iaith wahanol a bod yna ofynion gwahanol. Felly byddem ni'n gweld bod siopau'n symud fel bod swyddfa neu bresenoldeb gyda nhw a fyddai'n gyfrifol am sicrhau darpariaeth Cymraeg—nhw fyddai’n bennaf gyfrifol am hynny a bydden nhw'n rhan o Gymru wedyn.
Most definitely. I would agree with that. And one approach in helping to address that—. From experience with a number of supermarkets, I don't believe any of the main supermarkets have their headquarters in Wales—it's always in England somewhere. They have regional offices and very often they split Wales. North Wales is considered as the north-west of England, really, and I know that even Carmarthen is termed the south-west and south-west Wales, or the south-west and Wales, or something similar. So, we have asked companies to move and have at least a regional office in Wales and that there would be some acknowledgement or recognition of Wales. Regarding the officers that we meet, because they're managers rather than people working in the shops, they're not familiar with Wales, they perhaps haven't even realised that there's a different language and different requirements here. So, we would imagine that by getting the supermarkets to move their head offices and a presence, they'd be responsible for their Welsh language provision, mainly, and they would be part of Wales.
Mae'r sector preifat, efallai, yn faes delfrydol ar gyfer hyrwyddo a safonau a bod yna gydweithio yn digwydd gyda'i gilydd.
The private sector is an ideal area for promotion and standards, and for them to to work in accord.
Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you.
Rhianon.
Diolch, Chair. Thank you. Briefly, in regard to the private sector, I'm sure others may have had similar conversations, but in regard to where you envisage the standards impacting upon the scale of private sector, would it be small and medium-sized enterprises? How do you see that vision, in terms of the potential for rolling out standards to the private sector? Because if you are a small business, a sign is very expensive if it's a new thing, and, of course, it is about hearts and minds as well as the stick. So, what is your vision as to how that could or should be rolled out?
Yn ddiddorol, pan oedd bwrdd yr iaith, roedd yna wasanaeth cyfieithu ar gael iddyn nhw—dogfennau bach. Felly, pe bai rhywun eisiau newid iaith bwydlen mewn caffi, gallent droi i gael y gwasanaeth cyfieithu yna am ddim. Cafodd hwnnw ei ddileu gan y comisiynydd—dim diddordeb. Yn ail, roedd yna grantiau bach ar gael ar gyfer pethau fel arwyddion, a hefyd roedd yna gynllun hybu gyda dylunio dwyieithog. Felly, mae yna lawer o bethau byddai'r Llywodraeth yn gallu eu gwneud i hyrwyddo hynny.
Ond, rydw i'n credu, yn fy marn i, y peth gorau i'w wneud yw mynd at ardaloedd lle mae pobl, bob dydd, yn defnyddio'r Gymraeg—caffis, tafarnau, llefydd siopa, y stryd fawr. Os ydym ni'n gallu delio â'r stryd fawr, a Chymreigio'r stryd fawr, rydw i'n credu bod hwnnw'n gam cyntaf cyn mynd ymlaen at unrhyw fusnesau. Mae'n llawer mwy anodd mynd i mewn at fusnesau bach, preifat eraill. Ond, lle mae'r Gymraeg yn cael ei defnyddio yn gymunedol—dyna le dylai'r pwyslais fod.
Interestingly, when the Welsh Language Board existed, there was a translation service available for short documents. So, if somebody wanted to change the language on a menu in a cafe, they could go to that translation service free of charge. That was abolished by the commissioner, who wasn't interested. Then there were small grants for signs and so forth, and there was a promotional scheme with bilingual design. So, there were many things that the Government could do and the Government could still do, to promote this.
But I think, in my opinion, the best thing to do is to go to areas where people, on a daily basis, use the Welsh language—cafes, pubs, shops, the high street. If we can deal with the high street, and make that more Welsh, then that would be the first step before we go further to include businesses. It's much more difficult to go into SMEs in the private sector. So, it's where Welsh is used on the community level that we should emphasise.
O'n rhan ni, rydym ni eisiau gweld, yn y lle cyntaf, y rhannau o'r sector preifat sydd o dan y Mesur yn barod, yn cael eu gweithredu, ac wedyn yn ymestyn i'r banciau, manwerthwyr, archfarchnadoedd. Nid ydym ni, ar hyn o bryd, ddim yn galw am gynnwys—
From our point of view, in the first place, we would like to see those parts of the private sector subject to the Measure already being implemented, and then going on to the banks, and so forth—
Sorry, that's my question, and I'm not quite following. So, in terms of where you would put that threshold as to where you would start, there must have been some dialogue, a narrative, as to where you would start, in terms of any incremental programme. Because there is concern, especially in English-speaking areas that I represent, that this could disable a small business. Now, whether that's palatable to hear, it is what the dialogue is every day around this issue. So, how would you address that?
Nid ydym ni'n galw, ar hyn o bryd, am gynnwys busnesau bach a chanolig o dan y safonau. So, rydym ni'n sôn am gwmnïau manwerthu mawr, banciau, archfarchnadoedd. Mae'r dystiolaeth yn awgrymu bod poblogaeth Cymru yn sicr yn dymuno gweld hynny'n digwydd, a dyna le rydym ni'n meddwl y dylid dechrau o ran gosod safonau o dan gyfundrefn y comisiynydd. Ac fel y gwnaeth Heini awgrymu, rydw i'n meddwl bod angen cymorth ar fusnesau bach a chanolig o dan y corff hybu newydd yma y gallai gael ei greu. Dyna pwy ddylai fod yn helpu'r busnesau bach a chanolig i ddarparu drwy'r Gymraeg.
We are not calling, at present, for including SMEs under the standards. So, we're talking about major retail businesses, banks, supermarkets. Evidence suggests that the population of Wales certainly wishes to see that happening, and that's where we believe that should start, from the point of view of imposing standards under the commissioner's regime. And as Heini suggested, we believe that SMEs need support under this new promotional organisation that could be created. It is that that should help the SMEs with Welsh language provision.
Ac o ran y busnesau mawr hefyd, beth sy'n greiddiol yw bod datblygiadau technolegol. Rŷm ni'n gweld ein bod ni'n colli hawliau drwy bethau fel bancio ar lein. Rŷch chi'n gallu defnyddio'r peiriannau hunanwasanaeth. Ar y cyfan, neu mae lot ohonyn nhw yn uniaith Saesneg, felly maen nhw'n cymryd lle—. Felly, y cwmnïau mawr sy'n tueddu i fod â nhw, ac o ran, wedyn, y mawr a'r bach, mae yna lot o fusnesau bach—heblaw caffis, efallai, sydd â bwydlenni—lle prin iawn mae arwyddion gyda nhw. Nid oes siop gyda ni yn Eglwyswrw, ond yn Aberteifi mae'r siopau bach—prin iawn yw'r arwyddion sydd gyda nhw, heblaw am gaffis, felly byddai'r effaith o ran pethau gweledol—
And in terms of the major businesses, what is crucially important is that technological developments are happening. We see that we're losing rights through things such as online banking. You can use self-service machines. On the whole, or the majority of them are monolingual, in English, and they replace—. So, it's the major companies that tend to have those machines and those facilities, so in terms of the large and the small businesses, there are many SMEs—apart from cafes, maybe, which have menus—that don't have signs. We don't have a shop in Eglwyswrw, but in Cardigan, the small shops have very few signs, apart from the cafes, so the—
With respect, it's not just about signs, is it? It's the whole—
We don't want to get into a debate about the signs now.
Ond diolch yn fawr iawn am hynny. Jest cwestiwn olaf ynglŷn â'r elfennau rhyngwladol. Rydym ni wedi cyffwrdd arnyn nhw, ond mae gan Mick gwestiwn.
But thank you very much. Just a final question about the international aspect. We've touched upon them, but Mick has a question.
I will come on to the international things, although I must make the point on the signs, that we've all had to grapple in the private sector with the Welsh bed and breakfast and hotel that somehow manages to convert a Welsh sausage, Welsh bacon, Welsh eggs into a full English. [Laughter.] I've always found that a bit of a contradiction, maybe, as something that could be regulated at some stage.
But in terms of the international dimension, which I actually think is really important and not sufficiently taken into account, we've focused very much on the Basque areas, Catalan and so on, yet there are many other areas where I'm not sure we're actually really getting best practice from those. Take Denmark for example, a small country in exactly the same situation, where all sorts of measures have been taken to protect the Danish language, a semi-Germanic language, in many ways, under similar pressures. The same in terms of some of the Slavic countries and so on.
You made the point in terms of the Basque area as well in terms of numbers and success, but again I think you then began to come on to the fact that the usage issue was still the same problem. This is a problem for many countries in a global world. Within that context, what is there to learn? Do you think we should actually be looking far more at the examples of what is happening globally in terms of practice, and that there should be far more global engagement with other countries on, perhaps, a much broader range than we have been doing up to now, in terms of the protection of languages that are under threat, which is an issue across the world at the moment?
Yn Ewrop—nid wyf i'n siŵr—mae yna ryw 40 o ieithoedd bach sydd o dan fygythiad o leiaf, ac mae tipyn o waith wedi cael ei wneud ar hynny gan wahanol sectorau o dan Ewrop. Os byddwn ni'n dod mas o Ewrop, pwy a ŵyr beth ddigwydda? Ond mae yna enghreifftiau o Friuli yn yr Eidal. Mae yna enghreifftiau yn yr Iseldiroedd o'r iaith Ffriseg. Efallai, yn fwy diddorol, fod eisiau i ni edrych ar yr hyn sy'n digwydd yn Latfia, Estonia a Lithwania, ar ôl iddyn nhw ymryddhau o'r Undeb Sofietaidd, a sut maen nhw wedi llwyddo i gael eu hieithoedd nhw, lle'r oedd yr ieithoedd o dan fygythiad Rwsieg, yn brif ieithoedd eu gwledydd—nid heb anawsterau. Wedyn mae gyda chi yn Sweden hefyd yr ieithoedd Sami yn y gogledd, ac wedyn yn y Ffindir mae gyda chi leiafrif Swedeg. Felly, mae yna lawer, lawer iawn, iawn o enghreifftiau lle mae yna ymdrechion wedi digwydd. Os ewch chi i ben draw'r byd, os ewch chi i Seland Newydd, mae'r iaith Maori yn gwneud camau mawr i gael ei chydnabod ac i ddod yn ôl. Dyna, rydw i'n credu, fyddai'r fantais o gael awdurdod lled braich a fyddai'n gallu astudio'r cyfan yma, dod â phopeth at ei gilydd, ac wedyn dod ag atebion a fyddai'n addas i ni. Mae pob gwlad hefyd yn wahanol i'w gilydd, ond mae yna lawer i'w ddysgu ac i gyd-ddysgu .
In Europe—I'm not certain—I think there are 40 smaller language that are under threat, at least, and quite a bit of work has been done on this by various sectors in Europe. If, of course, we leave Europe, we'll see what happens then. But there are examples from Friuli in Italy, and examples in the Netherlands of the Frisian language. Perhaps, more interestingly, we should look at what's happening in Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania, after they left the Soviet Union and how they have succeeded in getting—where their language used to be under the threat of Russian, they've succeeded in making their native languages the main languages of their countries—not without difficulty. Then, in Sweden too, you have the Sami languages in the northern area, and then in Finland you have the minority Swedish language. So, you've got very many examples of people attempting to look after their languages. If you go to the southern hemisphere, to New Zealand, you have the Maori language making great strides there. I believe that would be the advantage of having an arm's-length authority that would study all of this and bring everything together and then bring solutions that would be suitable and appropriate for us. Every country differs, but there's a great deal to be learned and learned jointly.
Byddwn i'n cytuno bod yna lawer gyda ni i ddysgu, ac fel ymgyrchwyr rydym ni'n ymwneud ag ymgyrchwyr mewn gwledydd eraill. Rydym ni'n aml yn edrych ar Gatalonia a Gwlad y Basg fel llefydd lle rydym ni'n edrych. Rydym ni'n gweld ein bod ni eisiau mynd i gyfeiriad tebyg. Er, wrth gwrs, mae ganddyn nhw hawliau cryfach na ni, a dyna pam yr ydym ni’n edrych arnyn nhw. Ac mae yna wledydd hefyd sy’n edrych arnom ni, wrth gwrs. Rŷm ni’n siarad ag ymgyrchwyr yn Iwerddon, yn y gogledd, ac maen nhw wrthi’n edrych ar beth maen nhw ei eisiau yng Ngogledd Iwerddon, ac maen nhw’n edrych arnom ni ac yn dweud eu bod nhw eisiau safonau a chomisiynydd. Ac felly, mae’n bwysig—gallwn ni ddysgu beth rydym ni eisiau ei wneud hefyd drwy edrych drwy safbwynt gwledydd sy’n teimlo eu bod nhw’n edrych arnom ni. Mae'r gwaith sydd angen cael ei wneud o ran yr hybu yna i gyd—mae’n bwysig bod y statws gennych chi yn y lle cyntaf, a’r hawliau, achos mae’r rheini yn cael effaith ar ein hymwybyddiaeth ni. Mae'r ffaith bod yr iaith—a’r rheswm eich bod chi’n sôn yn gynharach ynghylch llai o ddefnydd o’r Gymraeg dros amser yw statws israddol hanesyddol y Gymraeg, sy’n cael llai o effaith nawr nag yr oedd e 50 mlynedd yn ôl, ond mae e’n dal i gael effaith. Ac mae’r cynnydd yna yn statws y Gymraeg sydd wedi digwydd drwy’r Mesur, y cynnydd yn hawliau’r Gymraeg, yn araf bach yn mynd i wrthweithio’r gostyngiad yna. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae angen inni wneud llawer iawn o bethau eraill hefyd, ond byddem ni’n rhybuddio, fel yr ydym ni wedi dweud, yn erbyn datgymalu cyfundrefn sy’n rhoi’r statws yna i’r Gymraeg ar hyn o bryd.
I would agree that we have much to learn, and, as campaigners, we are involved with campaigns in other nations. We very often look at Catalonia and the Basque Country as places that we look to and see that we want to pursue a similar direction. But, of course, they have stronger rights than us, that’s why we are looking at them. And there are nations that look to us, of course. We are talking to campaigners in Ireland, in the north there, and they look at what they want in Northern Ireland, and they look to us and say that they want standards and a commissioner. So, it’s important that we can learn what we want to do by looking at nations that actually are looking at us. So, the work that needs to be done in terms of the promotion is important, in that you have the status in the first instance, and the rights, because they have an impact on our awareness. The reason you talked about less use being made of the Welsh language over time is the status of the Welsh language historically, which, perhaps has less impact now than it did half a century ago, but it does still have that effect. And the progress and the increase in the status of the Welsh language has happened through the Measure, the increase in the rights of the Welsh language, will slowly counteract that decrease. And we need to do a great deal of other things, but I would warn, as we've said, against breaking down a regime that gives that status to the Welsh language at present.
Ocê. Rydym ni'n mynd i orfod dod â'r sesiwn i ben nawr, ond diolch yn fawr iawn ichi oll am ddod i mewn atom. Byddwn ni'n cysylltu os oes unrhyw gwestiynau ychwanegol gyda ni, neu os oes unrhyw beth ychwanegol yr ydych chi am ei roi inni sydd ddim wedi cael ei ddweud yma heddiw, byddem ni'n croesawu unrhyw fewnbwn. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Diolch.
Okay. I have to bring this session to a close now, but thank you all for coming to meet with us. If we have any further questions, we will write to you, or if there’s anything else that you would like to add to what has been said today, we would welcome any input. Thank you very much.
Symud ymlaen at eitem 3, mae yna nifer o bapurau i’w nodi. Cyllid ar gyfer addysg gerddoriaeth, gan Goleg Brenhinol Cerdd a Drama Cymru. Wedyn un ar gyllid ar gyfer addysg gerddoriaeth, llythyr gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Ar yr un thema, 3.3, llythyr gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Addysg. Wedyn mae 3.4, ymchwiliad byr i adeiladu S4C ar gyfer y dyfodol, rhagor o wybodaeth gan S4C. Ac wedyn, o ran yr ymchwiliad byr i oblygiadau ymadael â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, ymateb gan Lyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru. A oes unrhyw sylwad am un o’r llythyrau yna? Na?
Moving on to item 3, there are a number of papers to note. Funding for music education, a letter from the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. And then one on access to music education, a letter from the Welsh Local Government Association. And then, 3.3, along the same theme, a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education. And then, 3.4, a short inquiry into building an S4C for the future, more information from S4C. Then, a short inquiry into the implications of Brexit, a response from the National Library of Wales. Any comments at all, please, on any one of those letters? None?
Yes, sorry. No, I'll leave that; it's fine.
Ie, mae yna ddadl y prynhawn yma ar addysg gerddoriaeth. Felly, mae'n siŵr gallwn ni gael rhai o'r trafodaethau fanna ynglŷn â rhai o'r llythyrau sydd wedi dod atom heddiw.
Yes, there is a debate this afternoon on music education. So, I'm sure we can have some of those discussions then about some of the letters that we have received today.
Cynnig:
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).
Motion:
that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Felly, symud ymlaen wedyn at eitem 4, a chynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd am weddill y cyfarfod. A ydy pawb yn hapus?
So, moving on to item 4, which is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder the meeting, is everyone content?
Bodlon.
Content.
Diolch.
Thank you very much.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:07.
Motion agreed.
The public part of the meeting ended at 11:07.