National Assembly for Wales

It's to go back to the governance issues, really. I'm new to the committee, so I'm going to ask a very pointed and possibly rude question. And I've no doubt I'll be put right if it doesn't have any sort of basis. Given the extraordinary, convoluted devolution journey Wales has gone through, and the fact that I've been involved in it from the start—I mean, I can remember the early discussions about where broadcasting, especially for the Welsh language, should sit, and, you know, there aren't many models of decentralisation—or quasi-federal—that would have come up with the model we had, i.e. the Welsh language broadcaster was funded and supervised outside the country it was based in. S4C went along with that model—in fact they worked quite actively to stop devolution to the Assembly over S4C. The whole thing then came back during austerity. I can appreciate why then it was regarded as a way of just passing on the cuts.

But this has been S4C's position, basically—lighter regulation and oversight in the DCMS than you probably would have had in the Assembly and the resources you got from London were much more likely to be protected than the fight that you'd have, possibly, in the Welsh Government's annual spending round. That's the big picture about that funding model, it seems to me. I hope I'm not being unfair. But the real question that I want ask is: should we start to revisit some of these things, in that there should be some form of direct contact between the Welsh Government and S4C regarding funding, and with us in terms of the accountability? And isn't it time now, as part of S4C's vision, that you recognise the need for appropriate governance and accountability to the main political institution in Wales?

I think it's very difficult for me to pass an opinion on the stand taken by another broadcaster that is independent. I think it would be slightly inappropriate, really, for me to say what they might have in mind on their position. All I can say is, from S4C's point of view and, certainly, from the BBC, we need to find a way, as we are doing today, of extending our availability to be accountable, our availability for questioning, and our partnership with some of the linguistic ambitions of the Welsh Government and, indeed, the ambition of the Welsh Government for the creative industries in general. I think it would be beneficial for all for us to be, as we are, part of that picture. But I am, for one remaining month, an individual member of the board of S4C, so, you'll forgive me if I have to say that this is a matter for the chairman of that board.  

We have talked about these issues quite a lot, but I think with the new memorandum of understanding with S4C and the BBC—those are starting points. But if the Conservatives want to, potentially, change their view on the devolution of broadcasting, you have friends here. 

You know I'm a scrutiniser—[Inaudible.] [Laughter.]

David, could I have just one more word? This, again, morphs into the second part of it. I'm very proud of the work I did as a trustee in trying to make certain that the new charter of the BBC had significant references to the devolved Governments. And I think, if I may say so, this charter probably has the most references to devolved Governments of any charter of the BBC in the past. And so, if we are on a journey, a little step has been taken. 

Siân Gwenllian.

Well, just to come on to some of the exciting and interesting developments—an update on Central Square. Where is it? How is it going? What are the timelines? And what do you expect to suddenly happen?

I was down there yesterday. There are about 300 people on site at the moment, kitting it out. By Christmas, we'll have, essentially, the furniture in place, and then the extraordinary technical work begins. We're adopting a technology standard in Central Square that is the most advanced in Europe. It comes with some risk, naturally, as with any level of innovation. But, essentially, we have six to eight months, then, of technical installation and testing. So, we would aim to have our first staff into the building by this time next year, and then it's a very careful six-month migration of all the individual services: Radio Wales, Radio Cymru, the playout and transmission services for BBC One Wales, BBC Two Wales and S4C. We would expect the entire project to be completed by March 2020, and to date we are on time and we are on budget.

So, by March 2020, the hive of media in Wales will be up and running. 

Yes, well, I would very much hope—. I mean, my aim, and it's not a formal part of the project plan, is very much to begin broadcasting there before Christmas, potentially with our radio services first. But in terms of the complete migration from Llandaff, and after, what, 50 or 60 years, closing the doors of Llandaff, I suspect that's a March 2020 milestone—and it is exciting.

I think there are two things I would pull out about Central Square. One is the extraordinary economic regeneration that it's triggered. We spent a long time planning, but when we finally settled on a site, what has been incredibly satisfying is to see the level of development around the building. We're taking 150,000 sq ft, just to put this in context. Our building is 150,000 sq ft. I believe the entire Central Square development on both sides of the station is likely to be in excess of 1.5 million sq ft to 2 million sq ft. I'm not saying the BBC is fully responsible for that, but I do think the decision to locate there gave an awful lot of people confidence in the integrity of the master plan for that area.

The second thing is the big difference from Llandaff, other than the technology, will be—. This is going to be a sector hub, not a BBC hub, so we are designing from the outset that our partners in the independent sector and S4C will have a home from home in this building—an area that they can use for their own purposes. Because, I think Llandaff has lots of wonderful heritage, but it is a fortress, and I think if you're going to move to the centre of town, you need to make sure your doors are wide open, not just to the public but also to the sector.

Just a general question, more of just personal interest: how will the Central Square development stand in comparison with other media developments across Europe?

It will be the best one. [Laughter.] Well, in what sense? In an economic sense? In terms of technology?

Well, in terms of the economic, in terms of the technology, and in terms of the impact it has in terms of the reputation and the draw to Wales in particular of having this development.

If you went to the major global technology conferences over the next 12 months, whether that's Las Vegas or the ones that are held in Europe, everybody is looking at the project in Cardiff, because of the extent of the deployment of what is called 'live IP'. It's totally different. It's an internet-based, internet protocol-based system, which is an entire revolution from the traditional systems that we've used in broadcasting, and nobody has deployed it at the scale that we are deploying it in this building. So, it's not just the whole of the BBC engineering and digital divisions looking at what we're doing. The entire broadcast sector across the world is looking at the level of deployment that we're doing. That's exciting. I have to be honest with you; sometimes it gives me sleepless nights because we are—. The only advice we had when we were developing this programme was, 'Don't change your systems and the building at the same time.' We are doing both, and we have to, because the systems in Llandaff are so antiquated. But it brings with it a level of complexity that is—. You know, we have a brilliant team, but this is a massive project.

Well, I think as long as you continue to have the Dalek in the main foyer—

Yes, I can guarantee that.

—we'll all be happy.

I wonder if I could just say—I'm winging it here—whether the committee would like to go around the—

You'd be very welcome.

I have looked, yes. Others can.

As a committee, you'd be very welcome, as a group.

Can I ask you, then, just to follow on—? I mean, in terms of the access to the building and the relationship with S4C, how will that work in terms of Central Square? Will they have a presence? Will they have an arrangement? Access to some of the technology? 

Yes. So, S4C will be a tenant within the building. So, there are two aspects to their presence: one is that they will have some staff there—they'll be taking a level of desking and an area within the building for their own staff—but alongside that, for the first time, we're bringing technology services together. So, whereas traditionally, obviously, we've had transmission for S4C sitting in Llanishen and our transmission sitting in Llandaff, that will be a single, merged operation. So, a lot of the synergies and savings and efficiencies delivering benefit back to both broadcasters.

So, that should be a very significant technological boost to S4C.

Well, this is the key thing. So, if you go on to what I described earlier, this live IP service, what it does is it gives you not only, obviously, a technology base to do what we're doing now, but it is endlessly flexible in terms of improvements in broadcast standards, whether that's picture or audio quality. So, it gives you a foundation for the first time that you can actually build on. The truth is, at the moment, Llandaff is held together with scissors and string, if you like. It is antiquated. So, we will have the most advanced—. Obviously, we'll have the most advanced broadcast infrastructure, certainly in Europe. That gives us massive advantages in terms of anticipating being able to respond to future technical developments. 

And at the same time, of course, S4C, in terms of Yr Egin in Carmarthen, will there be any BBC presence there, or what will be the arrangement there? 

We did have a very good conversation with the university about the possibility of co-locating. The truth is, we've been in Carmarthen for the best part of 20, 30 years, so we have about a dozen staff based in Carmarthen, and because of the level of broadcast infrastructure we already have in the existing location, we've made the decision not to move across town because it's about £0.5 million of additional cost just to move 1 km up the road. So, we won't be physically in the building, but what we are going to talk to the university about is, where we look at apprenticeships and traineeships in terms of extending diversity within the sector, whether there are opportunities for us to work with not just S4C, but the other tenants within Yr Egin, to try and promote employment and employability in west Wales.

Okay; thank you.

I look forward to visiting Central Square. I've peered at it from another building, and its ethereal terrace level does seem quite intriguing. I genuinely think you should be praised for investing in a prestigious building. I think design is important, and it's obviously the anchor building for the redevelopment around there, which is very exciting. I have great nostalgia for Llandaff, and that's one of Wales's most outstanding modernist buildings by the great architect, Dale Owen, but I do feel the new building reflects that sort of aspiration to show the world what Wales can do in design, so I look forward to a visit very soon. 

I think it's even nicer inside, actually, than outside.

I look forward to that particularly.

There are fewer bars. [Laughter.]

Yes, well, anyway, I've visited Llandaff many, many times, from the early 1980s, and it was a very different culture, I think it's fair to say, Rhodri. 

I'd just like to look at this issue of funding for Welsh language content—sorry, for English language content for Welsh audiences. Because it dropped to a level I think Lord Hall said was quite unsustainable, and you're trying to put that right with an extra £8.5 million, which will take us to nearly £30 million by 2019-20. This is a really key area, I think—English language broadcasting for a Welsh audience—and I would like an update about how this is going.

I think it's going extremely well. I think we've seen—. We talked, I think, at the last committee that the new money would represent a 50 per cent increase in the direct commissioning spend of the organisation. That has had a dramatic impact in the last 12 months. We've put 24 hours of new, original drama from Wales, set in Wales, on network screens. Nick and his team have been responsible, working with the sector, for about 15 significant series from Wales hitting network screens. So the investment has made an instant impact. We would expect the traffic that we're seeing on iPlayer to double this year compared to the previous year. I expect around 40 million requests for BBC Wales output on iPlayer in this year, driven by those very notable drama successes.

I've been coming to committee for the best part of six or seven years and we've talked a lot about the funding challenges and the squeeze and, 'Why can't we have this?' and 'Why can't we have that?' It is incredibly satisfying to see that money making an impact, and I'd have to say that I don't think there has been a year when we've had a bigger impact on UK screens. It's incredibly important for the confidence of the sector that we—. There used to be whispers: did Wales have the talent or the ideas, really, to cut through on UK screens? Nobody says that anymore. The bar's been set high. If I may, I'd just like to bring Nick in, because I think there are two or three—

Is that your vision, that the maximum amount of English language broadcasting for the Welsh audience should also have a further outreach, and then be potentially broadcast around the whole network?

Yes, and for a very simple reason. If it's good enough for Wales, it should be good enough for the UK. And so to see something like Keeping Faith—yes, it was the biggest drama we've had in Wales, Wales-set drama, that we've had in the last 15, 20 years, but for it then to go on and get 17 million requests on iPlayer, for network to rebroadcast it, for network to say, 'Actually, we'll come in and co-invest in the second series because it's good enough', that's where we should be. It's not an ideological thing about everything being seen by the UK. But if it's good enough for Wales, why on earth is it not good enough for the rest of the UK? And that's what we've seen time and time again. Just this week on BBC UK television you've got Sam and Shauna's Big Cook Out, a series on BBC 2; you've got Back in Time for the Factory, a major social exploration of women's rights at work, all airing on network. And that's where we should be. We always talked about this. It's happened this year.

If I may, I just want Nick—with the two or three ingredients that you think have driven that.

Thank you for the invitation. It's good to be here. I think, when I took on this job, it was around the same time that the £8.5 million arrived, and so very quickly we were able to increase the tariff on our factual output, and we drew as a result a lot more talent that was already here, but simply wasn't facing BBC Wales, to the table. We were able to commission things like Valley Cops at one end of the spectrum, Keeping Faith and Hidden at the other end of the spectrum. So, suddenly we were commissioning projects that the network admired and wanted to be a part of, and it's been amazing to see the response of the sector. As a result, we're now finding that potentially up to 80 per cent of our content is being repeated or taken by BBC network. So, in terms of portrayal and representation of Wales across the network, across the world, we're living through an extraordinary time.

I think we'd all recognise that's been an important turnaround—the £8.5 million increase—but if you look to where the total funding package was a year or two ago, I think that was around about £35 million, if you included news content. I just wonder where—if we get back to £30 million and you add news content, are we roughly at £35 million? Where does the overall figure—? If I've understood it correctly.

No, forgive me, the annual report numbers that you get include all the BBC overheads. They include the central overheads of property, they include all the local overheads, so you get, if you like, the full-fat number. If we just look at direct commissioning spend, i.e. how much money Nick can spend directly with the sector, we were at a place about 18 months ago where we were spending about £15 million a year, and that included all the news and sport television output as well. We will be in a position next year where we are at £25 million, and then when you add in all the costs of transmission, the playout, the marketing and all those services, that gets you to the £30 million.

So, forgive me, when I said there would be a 50 per cent increase, additional investment, it was on the direct commissioning that Nick does. It's just that the BBC, for the annual report purposes, loads all its overheads on, so you get two different currencies. Does that make any sense at all?

I'm sure as I become more experienced, Chair, I will be able to understand these convolutions. But in fairness to Rhodri, accounts are rarely straightforward. I think you've given us a sense of the change of magnitude anyway, in terms of the decline that Lord Hall referred to—unsustainable levels—has now been addressed. That's your broad political message, is it?

Yes, I think I said to committee two or three years ago that we were simply not delivering the national service that Wales needs, and when I look at the breadth of the programming that Nick and his team are now responsible for, we're in a much, much better space.

You've talked about what it will achieve and I just wonder, if you compare it to the strategic approach in Scotland, is there perhaps a charge that here in Wales it's slightly incremental? There's a very confident big picture in Scotland, isn't there—'This is BBC Scotland' and—

Do you mean in terms of the channel? 

In terms of the channel. I just wonder if that type of packaging and concept—is it an alternative or is it a better version that we can't quite emulate? How would you speak of the two concepts?

I shall be very careful in what I say. In financial terms, the budget of the channel, the BBC Scotland channel, will be almost identical to the budget that Nick has for English language television so—

And I think that's a fair point. That jumped out when I read the report. 

I don't want to—. Scotland must do what Scotland wants to do. I think it is absolutely appropriate that there is asymmetry in terms of how different nations want to spend their money. The view that we took very, very clearly was two things. One, that the market is moving, so the rise of on-demand players is very significant and we want to play big on the on-demand players. What do we know works there? We know that drama works there. So, that's why Hidden, Requiem and Keeping Faith have their combined requests on iPlayer, to date, at 37 million. Drama is expensive but it plays well. Comedy plays; we've got a big season of comedy launching next week. The other thing we wanted to do is we wanted to put our content where the biggest audiences are. So, we deliberately focused in Wales on BBC One and we focused on getting our content particularly onto BBC Two at a UK level. So, all our focus is on delivering quality, raising the bar and getting our output to the biggest audiences.

When we talked about a channel in Wales, the issue that we came up with in Wales is (a) there isn't audience demand, and you need to listen to and respect where audiences are, but the second thing was that—and S4C have to grapple with this—filling channels requires certain levels of volume, and I don't think we're really—we don't want to be in the volume game, we want to be absolutely in a quality place. The reason Nick increases tariffs and the reason he can invest more in comedy and drama is because he doesn't have to fill schedules. So, we have taken a different route from Scotland, but I suspect, in terms of the audience return, for audiences here in Wales, and for getting us on the network, it's the right approach for us. 

I have no problem with a different route if it can be coherently explained why you wish to go in that direction, and you've given a good account of that, which we can consider. It brings me neatly on to the position we're in in terms of network spend. Obviously, you've already said that what's commissioned in Wales you want to go throughout the network ideally—all of it but certainly a lot of it—but in terms of network programming for the UK, we at the moment receive 6.7 per cent of the spend, at about £54 million. That's quite a lot above what you just get on population. So, I think, in fairness, in terms of this scrutiny, that's where I start from as someone fresh to all this. I'd like to know whether that is a good percentage you want to preserve, or does it not represent the height of your ambitions?

Then I do think it leads on to this issue that Ofcom have said that at least 5 per cent of the spend should be on a population basis, roughly, to the devolved nations. We're obviously doing better than that. But they've also come up with something much more problematic from your point of view, and it reinforces the point you were just making about filling air time, that it should also be 5 per cent of the hours—perhaps you could just draw out why you think that is—I think you've been quite firm—not a good way of looking at the deal we get in terms of the network programming.

I think there are two things. One is that—and it goes back to the point Elan made about the competitiveness of the marketplace—you want to make the right decisions for the right audiences, and there is always a danger in regulation that you limit flexibility, you limit room for manoeuvre, you slow down the business. If BBC Wales—and we've been a centre of excellence for drama across the UK for the best part of 10 years now—if we want to build on that, what I don't want are commissioners in London thinking, 'We can't back any more drama out of Wales because what we really need is low-cost volume.' So, I think the spend target is absolutely appropriate in terms of economic impact and jobs and sustainability. We have had reservations, and I think Tony Hall, when he was here, spoke directly about it. There is a danger with hours that you chase numbers, and the reason Wales now has the reputation it has is because we've chased big projects that make a noise. So, that's what we need to keep an eye on—that we don't (a) tie ourselves up in knots and become less responsive, but, secondly, that we end up celebrating lots of hours but we don't have the noisy, big, global projects that get Wales noticed.i 

I could do one more question.

Do you want to do one more question?

Yes, it's just the production guarantee, which is 50 per cent in house, which is being removed. Again, as I'm a newcomer, I can just tell you what my initial impressions are. I'm slightly surprised to see the independent sector feel that that's quite threatening; my initial assumption would be that it offered lots of opportunities. So, what's the basis of the fear there—a lot of independent producers in the rest of the UK or Europe coming in on this? And how are you addressing some of these concerns, because I thought this was one of the great successes, really, of Wales in the modern era—our creative industries—and they ought to be able to compete, I would have thought. But there's been quite a strong kickback on the end of the guarantee.

I tend to agree with you, David. I think what happened was that, under the charter, the 50 per cent guarantee went. It went last April, so there's no guarantee in place now. All the BBC's money, really, beyond news and children’s, I think, is openly contestable, and that’s a good thing. And if you look at the success that Nick is having in terms of television, the contribution of the independent sector is extraordinary. I think the reason there were some wary voices within the sector is that, as part of being deregulated, it gave BBC Studios, which is the subsidiary that’s been created instead of in-house production—it gave them the freedom to sell ideas to other broadcasters. So, essentially, you’ve got a significant player—BBC Studios is now able to look at other marketplaces. But I would say that the quid pro quo of that is that all the money that was traditionally earmarked and ring-fenced for in-house was suddenly openly contestable. So, I think it was a pretty balanced response as part of the charter changes.

Given that we’ve just moved into this new regime, do you sense that the opportunity of this new approach is now being grasped in Wales and the independent sector?

Yes. I’ll give you a couple of examples. Firstly, to say that BBC Studios is having real success selling globally, the fact is the BBC brand is extremely attractive. If you’re a Netflix or an Amazon or the emerging markets in China—I say the emerging markets in China; the markets in China are huge—the attraction of working with the BBC, whether that’s in drama or in natural history, are enormous. There’s a real opportunity to drive income growth and therefore be able to reinvest in public service output. To take one example, crime, BBC Wales over the last six or seven years has developed expertise in crime, particularly around Crimewatch. Well, that’s an extremely marketable skills base and talent base. So, at the moment—I’m not sure we’ve announced these things yet—but Studios are very, very close to various deals with other broadcasters in terms of crime formats. And also just remember how attractive that is for talent because in the old days for in-house, yes, they had guaranteed work, but if the commissioner didn’t like their idea, their idea was dead, it had nowhere else to go; there’s now an open market. And I think what we’re seeing on air says that it’s been the right move.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw.

Just to move on to drama and drama portrayal, obviously, there have been some enormous successes and, just to say, on Back in Time for The Factory, how glad I am to see that the workers have finally come out on strike after years of exploitation—[Laughter.]—obviously, they were members of the National Union of Tailors and Garment Workers, which is now defunct.

Last year, Lord Hall said that we would see the largest ever slate of English language tv that would be set in Wales in 2018. Has that been achieved?

Yes. Twenty-four hours of network drama, across Requiem, Keeping Faith and Hidden. As I say, 37 million requests to view on iPlayer, a second series of Keeping Faith already in production, clearly demand for a second series of Hidden. The high point before this year, I believe, was about 11 years ago when there were nine hours. So, 24 hours of network drama—absolutely the biggest year we’ve ever had in drama.

Any predictions for next year?

Nick?

Awards—many awards. 

Awards, yes. [Laughter.]

What’s happened is that, because of the success, we are becoming a centre of gravity, and the best writers from Wales, who for a long time have been heading towards London, are now shifting their gaze back to the sector here. It’s a really exciting time. Here we are receiving extraordinary scripts and investment potential from all around the world. So, I think it has been a bit of a game changer this year, and we’re looking forward to next year. There are some fantastic projects in the pipeline and in development. Part of the reinvestment money actually has allowed us to develop scripts and develop a writing talent. In fact, with comedy, we had a ‘Find Me Funny’ initiative where we were looking for brand-new talent that had not written for television, and that’s been a huge success. Next week and the week after that, some of the content from that will be on television. So, I think it’s had a galvanising effect across the genres, in comedy and drama. It’s looking pretty good from where I’m sitting at the moment, yes.

That’s exciting. I was talking to someone in the film industry in Los Angeles and they said, ‘It’s all happening in Wales at the moment.’ So, that’s obviously a good trend.

Perhaps I could just say that I think the other thing that we mustn't lose sight of is that we've had a great creative sector story for a long time in Wales. We've talked about the jobs and the Doctor Who effect and the Casualty effect. I think what's particularly gratifying now is to see the cultural dividend of that success coming through, because we've always talked about the big gap was the representation of our own country on screen. There was plenty of activity happening, but that's been the real game changer, I think, to get those two things in balance: the huge international productions that are going through places like Bad Wolf—that's terrific; huge jobs and employability—but also to see Wales on screen. It was the missing element until this year.

And the identity. Lord Hall, when he gave evidence to this committee, I think back in 2016, he said:

'“every network genre in television now has a portrayal objective”, which is monitored quarterly by the directors of the nations and the Director of Content,'

What, I think, we're quite interested in, though, is, obviously, the portrayal of Wales within the media. I was wondering where we are in terms of the data on that, how that is being monitored, and what might be the analyses you could give us, or information you could provide us with.

This was something I was difficult about last time, wasn't it?

I think it was difficult, but in terms of—. I mean, if there is monitoring, then, clearly, in terms of what is there; I don't think we're asking to talk about anything that might be confidential.

I think you thought that I'd asked for some confidential information on what was coming up. We were just trying to understand, if you're analysing portrayal—you know, we are trying to scrutinise—how you're defining it, how then that's being tracked, so that we can understand when we see something, that that portrayal is reflective of what you are defining as Welsh life. I think that's what we're trying to understand.

It is difficult; we have lots of slightly ethereal conversations about how you measure portrayal. Is Huw Edwards on the 10 o'clock news portrayal? I've no idea. It's great he's there, but I don't know whether that counts as portrayal of Welsh—

But is anybody doing that work? If you don't know—

But you do have quarterly monitoring, so—.

So, just to explain the quarterly monitoring meetings, what we do is—. Obviously, the process of commissioning is long; you begin with pitches, then you go into a development phase to refine the idea to see whether the idea will fly, and then, finally, you get a green light—the moment where the money is released and the thing can go into production.

What we do is, we look across each of the programming categories: so, factual, entertainment, comedy, drama, and we say, 'Okay, at each stage in that development process, what are the projects we can see, either on network or on Nick's slate in Wales, that we think could really deliver representation? We never used to do that. So, for each of the three nations now, we know exactly where there are gaps in the pipeline, where we've got an abundance of riches, like we've had in drama this year. But we can really think about where those gaps are.

The other part of the data, I guess, which is a very simple response to the request, is—you know, we can list the 27 projects this year that have represented Wales on network screens that we've been funding, or network have delivered. So, it's very easy to give you a summary of all the big output that has had Wales at its heart over the last year.

The trickier question, Bethan, I think, which is what you're referring to, is: what does the audience think on portrayal? I think Ofcom at the moment as our new regulator is actually consulting on this issue because they're struggling with it too. It's quite difficult to define. I think we know in our hearts what it is; we know when we're seeing Wales authentically portrayed on screen in voice or in landscape or whatever. But putting a measurement on it, I think, is tricky, and it'll be interesting to see what Ofcom produces.

And especially with hybrid productions—things that are not completely Welsh but have a very strong Welsh element. It's a complex area and I think Ofcom, which used to be a more quantitative regulator, is really trying to work this one out.

Okay. Mick.

I just wanted to ask a little about the new drama commissioning editor, perhaps a little bit more about the function, what the outcome has been, how successful it has been, what it has actually achieved, what difference has it made.

Sure. So, Piers Wenger is in charge of all network drama commissioning. He's had a good week with Bodyguard, obviously, so he's probably out of the office at the moment. But, within his team, he has four or five senior commissioning editors and Ben Irving is the commissioning editor within his team who has responsibility for making sure that the network slate based in Wales is in rude health. So, for example, he's one of the commissioning executives on the Doctor Who series, which launches in a couple of weeks' time, but he's also developing a slate of scripts and projects that are either by Welsh indies or are about Wales, because, often, you get English indies with ideas about Wales as well, which is fine. So, that's his responsibility and he talks to Nick regularly and we talk about projects that we might do together.

And, it's interesting—you know, Keeping Faith is an unusual example of a production backed by S4C and BBC Wales locally, if you like, that then just does so well that actually networkers say, 'Well, actually, we'll have a slice of that', so they've come in with investment on the second season. So, it can work both ways; it's not a—. I think maybe one of the things that we've really seen and realised is that you can wait for network teams to sort it out, but what's so great about all the network programming from Wales at the moment is that a lot it has come through Nick's team—the ideas generated and built here that networkers have said, 'Yes, we'll have a slice of that'. So, we don't sit there passively waiting to see what they do about Wales; we're actually driving the conversation.

So, it's a sort of co-ordinating and framework function that pulls together those—. Rather than being a specific commissioning per se, it's about pulling together and co-ordinating.

Yes, and drama is a long game, you know. You might say, 'Well, what's Ben delivered in the last nine months?' The typical gestation of a drama project is about four years. Keeping Faith and Hidden and Requiem all pre-date Ben. His responsibility is to make sure the pipeline for two or three years' time in terms of network drama for Wales is spot on. We know that His Dark Materials is coming through—a huge production by Bad Wolf—what else?

Yes. And then the final thing I'll just ask is about the Writersroom for Wales, how that is operating. That's interesting in terms of providing opportunities and drawing together talent, looking for new talent and so on. How is that developing?

Nick, do you want to talk about some of the things that you're doing with Writersroom?

Yes, we're working really closely with Writersroom. They have a team in Wales now working closely with commissioning here and they've been at the heart of a whole number of successes. They've developed, for our comedy season, new talent, new scripts. They've also run initiatives looking for new writing talent. So, out of one of the initiatives came a half-hour sitcom and that was because they were able to source 320 scripts from new writing talent across Wales, they were able to hone that down to 10 and then they brought those 10 to me. So, they're really a fantastic resource for us in terms of drawing out new, undiscovered talent, whittling down to the best of the best and then developing them to the point of commission for us. So, they've been hugely useful.

They've also run quite a few initiatives now with our drama productions. So, Writersroom run various master classes embedded within real-world productions for grass-roots new talent. So, we've found that, having them here, we've been able to embed them in productions right from the beginning. They've also enabled us to funnel a lot of new and emerging talented writers to real-world commissions, so it's been a really strong partnership thus far.

It's added a rung, I think, because you always want to work with exciting new writers, but the step into broadcast is a very significant step for a lot of writers, and what we missed was that sort of first rung, if you like, so it's given us a space and it's given those writers a space to explore and develop their craft on short-form projects. Writersroom, for example, have worked with It's My Shout, which is a big drama development programme that is run right across Wales—about 800 people go through it a year. They've worked and really hothoused the writers of those films, which are very short eight-, 10-minute films. So, it's about making sure that that first rung is ready, because it's quite a step, isn't it, into broadcast? Network television is dealing with probably thousands and thousands of scripts every year and only choosing 30 projects. That's an incredibly competitive space. So, it's about getting confidence and giving them space to develop craft.

Okay, thank you.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I'd like to ask a few questions about governance and regulation. You've now got an external regulator for the first time. And I just wonder whether this is plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. You've got a single operating licence instead of the old individual service licences, and this single operating licence contains the words,

'clear, measurable and appropriately challenging regulatory conditions',

in relation to your output. Can you put some flesh upon those words and how this might have changed the environment in which you work?

I'll kick off as the non-executive member on the board. I have been associated with the BBC now in three regimes, I think, over a period of many years. I've been on their audience council, many years ago, the broadcasting council, and then on the BBC Trust. There are models of regulation and they all have strengths and weaknesses.

The current model of the unitary board seems to me to have one major advantage: the regulation has gone to Ofcom, so there is now an external monitoring system, and Ofcom itself is working through a variety of consultations and discussions as to how best to—. We're at the very early stages, because this is the first year where this is operational. What it has done, though, is to relieve the board—what used to be the old board of governors, then the trust—of that sort of role of being both regulator and manager or cheerleader. So, the board has a clear remit now to manage the BBC as efficiently as possible, to develop a strategy that is creative and ambitious, and it has no conflict within itself as to its regulatory role.

So, I find it very liberating to be part of this new board. I find myself much nearer to the creative action, and because there are four executive members with full voting rights—which are the director general; the deputy director general, finance and operational; the director of nations and regions; and the director of the commercial arm, worldwide and studios—the discussions can happen at a much earlier stage. You can have a policy coming to you in draft for discussion and you can work though the iterations of that. As a member for a nation, it's much easier to try to influence something in its draft form and to point out that something has been forgotten or not thought about adequately than it is to receive a full policy document, which is all done and dusted, and then to have to sort of make battle to open that whole thing up and re-discuss it.

So, from a personal point of view, I have to say that the unitary board, in its very early manifestation at the moment—it's only been since April 2017—is working well and pulling together. And we will see from the standpoint of Wales, you will also have the comfort of knowing that there are also measurements happening from another body to see how well the BBC is doing, both in Wales and in the UK.

I can well understand the removal of the conflict of responsibilities clarifies your role and enables you to focus more accurately, specifically upon what you now do. And I fully accept that it's early days to try to reach some kind of evaluation about how well Ofcom is performing in its role in this respect. I don't imagine we can go a great deal further on that.

But as regards the change from internal structure within the BBC, which you just referred to as well, the new director of nations and regions, Ken MacQuarrie, has made some changes, I'm sure, in his role, which should be for the benefit of Welsh audiences. Can you perhaps elaborate on this, or is it, again, too early to say what qualitative difference this will make?

The first point—and I'll ask Rhodri whether he'd like to elaborate on this as well—the first point to make is that, for the first time, he's at the main board. In the old manifestation of the board of governors, and then the trust, there was no director of nations and regions for a short while, but now he's a full voting member of those four executive members, so that shows the importance of that role. And there have been issues, in terms of HD and other issues—Radio 3—that you might like to talk about.

I mean, I think there are two or three things that I'd say that Kenny's played an absolutely key part in: one is the reinvestment. He came into that role three or four months before we knew what sums were available, and he led that negotiation internally. So, that was critical, and a lot of the things that we've talked about today couldn't have happened, obviously, without that investment.

One of the answers I should have given, actually, to Siân's questions earlier is that whilst we can't do the Radio 1 and the Radio 2 opt-outs, what we have done—again, Kenny played a key part in negotiating this—is extend Radio Wales's availability. So, it's currently at 79 per cent availability on FM. We will increase that in the next two months by 400,000 people, to 91 per cent availability. We're doing that—and it's not going to be without pain—we're doing it by moving a small number of Radio 3 frequencies to Radio Wales, because Radio 3 already has universal DAB coverage.

So, again, having an advocate—to Elan's point—having somebody there to champion, and an advocate for the nations at the very top table has, I think, already shown its benefits.

Right. I know you were talking a bit about this earlier on, but how do we ensure that the views of the Welsh audience are fully taken into account now by the BBC? Ofcom is currently consulting on this, and the old system of audience councils has gone. What's the mechanism now for involving your audience in this sort of way?

I suppose there are two. There are the usual measurements, which are the Broadcasters Audience Research Board and Radio Joint Audience Research—audience appreciation indices that are the daily fare of anybody who runs a directorate, as Rhodri does.

But in terms of monitoring something over and above that, the kind of public expectations, something you can't actually grasp about where people think the BBC should be in Wales, we have a Wales committee that I chair. It's not a replacement for the old audience council; it does things in a slightly different way. It mirrors, in fact, the unitary board, in that Rhodri and I and Ken MacQuarrie, the director of nations and regions, and Ian Hargreaves, who's the other non-executive director who actually lives in Wales, are all part of this committee together, as opposed to when the audience council existed, when Rhodri would come in at certain intervals with a report, but we were differentiated. We're now part of the same team. On Wednesday next we will be in Swansea, and we've asked Ipsos MORI to put together a group of people of a certain age—under 35—and weighted fairly scientifically in terms of the variety of outlooks, and we're meeting them. So, once again, we're trying our best to do some public accountability and to be in listening mode. So, I hope that—. You know, we've got to get it right, because in the end people will only appreciate the BBC and pay their licence fee willingly because there is something there that's valuable to them. So, we must be aware there's no way out of not listening to your audience.

We're at the end of our time, are we?

Do you want—

No, it's fine.