Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu - Y Bumed Senedd

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee - Fifth Senedd

18/10/2018

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Caroline Jones
David Melding
Jane Hutt
Jenny Rathbone
Rhianon Passmore
Sian Gwenllian

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Claire Gorrara Athro Astudiaethau Ffrangeg, Ysgol Ieithoedd Modern, Prifysgol Caerdydd
Professor of French Studies, School of Modern Languages, Cardiff University
Yr Arglwydd / Lord Elis-Thomas Y Gweinidog Diwylliant, Twristiaeth a Chwaraeon
Minister for Culture, Tourism and Sport
Eluned Haf Pennaeth Celfyddydau Rhyngwladol Cymru
Head of Wales Arts International
Jason Thomas Cyfarwyddwr Diwylliant, Chwaraeon a Thwristiaeth, Llywodraeth Cymru
Director of Culture, Sport and Tourism, Welsh Government
Meirion Prys Jones Prif Weithredwr, y Rhwydwaith i Hyrwyddo Amrywiaeth Ieithyddol
Chief Executive, Network to Promote Linguistic Diversity
Pauline Burt Prif Weithredwr, Ffilm Cymru Wales
Chief Executive, Ffilm Cymru Wales
Simon Brindle Dirprwy Gyfarwyddwr, Pontio Ewropeaidd, Llywodraeth Cymru
Deputy Director, European Transition, Welsh Government
Zélie Flach Swyddog Ewropeaidd, Celfyddydau Rhyngwladol Cymru
European Officer, Wales Arts International

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Nathan Wyer Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Steve George Clerc
Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:01.

The meeting began at 09:01.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Rydym ni'n gyhoeddus nawr. Croeso i Bwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu. Eitem 1 yw'r cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. A oes gan unrhyw Aelod rywbeth i'w ddatgan yma heddiw? Na.

Cafwyd ymddiheuriadau gan Mick Antoniw, ac mae'n rhaid i Jane Hutt adael yn gynnar.

We are now public. Welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. Item 1 is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. Does any Member have anything to declare today? No.

Apologies were received from Mick Antoniw, and Jane Hutt has to leave early.

2. Ymchwiliad byr i oblygiadau ymadael â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd i feysydd o fewn cylch gwaith y pwyllgor: sesiwn dystiolaeth 1
2. Short inquiry into the implications of Brexit on areas within the committee's remit: Evidence session 1

Eitem 2, ymchwiliad byr i oblygiadau ymadael â'r Undeb Ewropeaidd i feysydd o fewn cylch gwaith y pwyllgor, sesiwn dystiolaeth 1. Croeso eto i Dafydd Elis-Thomas, Aelod Cynulliad a'r Gweinidog Diwylliant, Twristiaeth a Chwaraeon; i Jason Thomas, sef cyfarwyddwr diwylliant, chwaraeon a thwristiaeth; a hefyd i Simon Brindle, dirprwy gyfarwyddwr, pontio Ewropeaidd. Croeso yma heddiw, a diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am ddod atom. Mae'n siŵr eich bod chi'n gwybod erbyn nawr, rydym ni'n mynd i ofyn cwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol, ac fe fydd Aelodau'n arwain ar hynny. Felly, rydym ni'n mynd i gychwyn gyda chwestiynau yn hynny o beth. A allwch chi roi trosolwg inni o'r hyn rydych chi wedi bod yn ei wneud o ran cyfathrebu ac ymwneud â'r sector diwylliannol, celfyddydol yng nghyd-destun Brexit? Sut ydych chi wedi clywed consyrn ganddyn nhw, a sut, wedyn, mae hynny wedi cael ei adlewyrchu yn eich trafodaethau gyda'r Deyrnas Unedig?

Item 2, short inquiry into the implications of Brexit on areas within the committee's remit, evidence session 1. Welcome, again, to Dafydd Elis-Thomas AM, Minister for Culture, Tourism and Sport; Jason Thomas, director of culture, sport and tourism; and also Simon Brindle, deputy director, European transition. Welcome today, and thank you very much for attending. As I'm sure you'll know by now, we're going to ask you questions on different themes, and Members will lead on those. So, we're going to start with questions. Can you provide us with an overview of what you've been doing in terms of communication and engaging with the cultural and arts sector in the context of Brexit? How have you heard from concerns from them, and then how has that been reflected in your discussions with the United Kingdom?

Wel, cyn ateb y cwestiwn yna, rydw i'n meddwl y dylwn i ddechrau gyda rhagymadrodd byr ynglŷn â'r sefyllfa druenus rydym ni ynddi ar hyn o bryd, fel gwleidyddion sydd yn ymwneud â pherthynas Cymru â'r Undeb Ewropeaidd, yn dilyn y trafodaethau neithiwr rhwng yr Undeb Ewropeaidd a'r Deyrnas Unedig. Y pwynt cyntaf y carwn i wneud—ac mi garwn i i'r pwyllgor ystyried hwn yn ddifrifol iawn—yw rydw i o'r farn, o safbwynt cyfansoddiadol, fod triniaeth y Deyrnas Unedig o'r Llywodraethau datganoledig—yn wir, o'r Cynulliadau datganoledig a Senedd yr Alban—yn gwbl amhriodol. Nid oes yna fawr ddim ymgynghori wedi bod o gwbl rhwng Gweinidogion y Deyrnas Unedig sydd â chyfrifoldeb yn y meysydd gwahanol sydd yn cael eu heffeithio gan benderfyniadau ynglŷn â'r Undeb Ewropeaidd, a'r gweinyddiaethau datganoledig. Pan fydd yna gyfarfodydd yn digwydd, maen nhw'n rhy hwyr i ddylanwadu dim ar bolisi, ac rydw i'n credu bod yna ymgyrch fwriadol i ymylu Llywodraeth Cymru a Llywodraeth yr Alban o'r trafodaethau gan eu bod nhw'n gwybod bod gyda ni safbwyntiau gwahanol iawn i'r safbwyntiau y mae'r Llywodraeth bresennol yn y Deyrnas Unedig yn eu dilyn. 

Gan ein bod ni mewn sefyllfa lle mae poblyddiaeth—os mai dyna'r gair priodol am 'populism'—asgell dde wedi gwenwyno gwleidyddiaeth y deyrnas yn fy marn i, mae hynny'n golygu nad oes yna gyfle bellach i drafodaeth resymol ynglŷn â pherthnasau Ewropeaidd, ac mae hynny'n cysylltu'n arbennig gyda'r meysydd diwylliant. Oherwydd, i ateb eich cwestiwn chi, beth rydym ni wedi bod yn ei ddweud wrth y sector, wrth bawb ohonyn nhw yn y meysydd diwylliannol, ym maes twristiaeth, a hefyd, yn amlwg, ym maes chwaraeon—ac nid oes eisiau pwysleisio hynny oherwydd rydym ni'n amlwg ac yn llwyddiannus iawn yn y maes yna ar hyn o bryd—yw mai busnes fel arfer rydym ni'n ei ddisgwyl gan y cyrff rydym ni'n eu cyllido: Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru, y byddwch chi'n eu gweld nhw yn y man; y cyngor chwaraeon; yr amgueddfeydd, lle byddaf i'n treulio'r rhan fwyaf o'r dydd heddiw; ac o safbwynt Croeso Cymru a'r busnesion twristaidd.

Mae'n bwysig ein bod ni'n parhau i gynnal busnes fel arfer, oherwydd mae'n amlwg imi, yn enwedig ar ôl neithiwr, nad yw'r Deyrnas Unedig ddim mewn sefyllfa i ddod i benderfyniad oherwydd rhaniadau mewnol, mae'n debyg, o fewn Cabinet y Deyrnas Unedig—ac nid yw hynny'n fater imi wneud unrhyw sylw arno fo. Nid oes yna ddim penderfyniadau yn cael eu gwneud, ac felly rydym ni'n gweithio mewn cyd-destun lle mae'n amhosib inni wneud argymhellion call ynglŷn â sut i ymateb. Yr un pwynt arall roeddwn i eisiau ei wneud—beth rydym ni'n ei bwysleisio yn arbennig ydy ein perthynas ni ag Iwerddon, ac rydym ni'n mynd i fod yn gweithio yn galed iawn fel pwyllgor, yn ystod y misoedd nesaf, i gryfhau ein perthynas gyda Gogledd Iwerddon a'r Weriniaeth, oherwydd hynny yw'r unig achubiaeth gallaf i ei gweld yn y sefyllfa rydym ni ynddi. Mae'n ddrwg gen i fod dipyn bach yn ymosodol, ond dyna fy ymateb i i beth sydd wedi digwydd dros nos.

Well, before answering that question, I think that I should start with a few words about the pitiful situation that we're facing at the moment as politicians involved in Wales's relationship with the European Union, following the discussions yesterday between the EU and the United Kingdom. The first point that I would like to make—and I would like the committee to consider this very seriously—is that I'm of the opinion, from a constitutional point of view, that the United Kingdom's treatment of the devolved Government—and, indeed, of the devolved Assemblies and the Scottish Parliament—is entirely inappropriate. There's been very little consultation between Ministers at the United Kingdom level who are responsible in the various areas that are affected by decisions with regard to the EU with the devolved administrations. When meetings happen, they are too late to have any influence on policy, and I think there's a deliberate campaign to exclude the Welsh Government and the Scottish Government, because they know that we have points of view that are very different to the stance that the current UK Government is pursuing.

Because we are in a situation where populism on the right wing has poisoned politics in the kingdom, in my opinion, that means that there's no opportunity now for a reasoned and reasonable debate about European relationships, and that links particularly with the area of culture. For, to answer your question, what we have been saying to the sector, to everyone involved in the cultural sector, with regard to tourism and, obviously, with regard to sport—and I don't need to emphasise that, because we are prominent and successful in that particular field at the moment—but we have been telling them that it's business as usual. That's what we expect from the bodies that we fund: the Arts Council of Wales, you'll be speaking to them later on; the sports council; the museums, where I'll be spending most of the day today; and from the point of view of Visit Wales and tourism businesses.

It's important that we do continue to maintain business as usual, because it's clear to me, especially after last night, that the United Kingdom isn't in a situation to come to a decision, because of internal divisions, apparently, amongst the Cabinet—that's not a matter for me to comment on. There are no decisions being made, and so we are working in a context where it's impossible for us to make reasoned recommendations about how to respond. Another point that I wanted to make—what we emphasise, particularly, is our relationship with Ireland, and we will be working very hard as a committee, over the next few months, to strengthen our relationship with Northern Ireland and the Republic, because that is the only salvation I can see in the situation that we are in. I'm sorry to be slightly aggressive, but that is my response to what has happened overnight.

09:05

Na, mae'n dda gweld pasiwn ynglŷn â'r pethau yma. Mae'n bwysig. Rydw i'n cydnabod beth rydych chi wedi dweud yma heddiw, ond yn eich tystiolaeth—wel, yn nhystiolaeth Llywodraeth Cymru, mae'n dweud eich bod chi wedi cael trafodaethau adeiladol a dadleuon er mwyn bwydo i mewn i Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig. A ydy hynny yn rhywbeth—? Sut ydych chi wedi dod i—? Roedd e'n swnio'n weddol wahanol, yr hyn roeddech chi yn ei ddweud nawr, i'r cyfarfodydd efallai mwy adeiladol sydd yn eich papur chi. A allwch chi jest ehangu ar hynny?

No, it's good to see passion about these things. It's important. I recognise what you've said here today, but in your evidence, or in the evidence of the Welsh Government, it says that you have had constructive discussions and debate in order to feed into the UK Government. Is that something—? How did you come to—? It sounded quite different, what you're saying now, to the more constructive meetings, perhaps, that you mentioned in your paper. Could you just expand on that?

Rydym ni'n dweud pethau adeiladol ond nid oes neb yn gwrando—dyna'r sefyllfa, a bod yn syml. Ac felly, nid oes gen i fawr o amynedd efo Michael Ellis, neu neb arall ohonyn nhw.

Well, we say constructive things, but nobody listens—that's the situation, simply put. So, I have very little patience with Michael Ellis, or any of the others.

Roeddech chi hefyd yn dweud, yn eich sylwadau agoriadol, pan fydd yna gyfarfodydd yn cael eu trefnu, ei bod hi'n rhy hwyr, wedyn, i ddylanwadu. A ydych chi'n cael gofyn i fynd i'r cyfarfodydd hynny? Pam ydy hi'n rhy hwyr i ddylanwadu? Jest er mwyn i ni ddeall yn iawn beth yw'r broses.

You also stated in your opening comments that when meetings are arranged, it's too late then to influence. Are you allowed to ask to be able to go to those meetings? Why is it too late to influence? Just for us to understand what the process is exactly.

Wel, y ffordd arferol y mae Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn trin y Llywodraethau datganoledig ydy gohirio cyfarfodydd pan fydd unrhyw drafferth. Efallai y gallai Jason ddweud gair yn fan hyn, oherwydd mae o wedi bod yn ein cynrychioli ni mewn nifer o gyfarfodydd gyda swyddogion ar lefel y Deyrnas Unedig yn ystod y misoedd diwethaf. Efallai y gallet ti ddweud tipyn bach mwy am y math o beth sydd yn digwydd, oherwydd mae'r swyddogion yn gallu parhau i drafod, hyd yn oed pan mae Gweinidogion yn dal eu trwynau neu beth bynnag maen nhw'n ei wneud yn San Steffan y dyddiau yma.

Well, the usual way that the United Kingdom Government treats the devolved Governments is to postpone meetings when there is any difficulty. Perhaps Jason could say a few words here, because he has been representing us in a number of meetings with officials on the UK level over the past few months. Perhaps you could explain a little bit more about the kinds of things that have been happening, because officials can continue to discuss, even when Ministers hold their noses, or whatever they're doing in Westminster these days.

Diolch, Minister. We've got reasonably good relations with officials, at officials level. We work closely with the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. I think one of the issues, which is exactly to the Minister's point, is there's a lot of listening, but whether it has influence is another matter. Obviously, my relationship at officials level is largely with DCMS. DCMS, then, has its own relationship that it has to manage, internal within Whitehall, so there's a whole set of layers of relationships going on here. We feel that we're relatively well informed at that DCMS level. Whether what we say back influences decisions is another matter, really.

You're asking a question, so you don't know—you don't have that feedback from them. So, you've given ideas and they go into a vacuum, or do they not? You're not getting the feedback that you would appreciate.

It's not necessarily the feedback. I think that some of the questions that we are putting on behalf of our stakeholders in Wales, at the moment are largely unanswerable. So, some of the fears that our stakeholders are saying are largely, probably, in two areas. It's true of the culture portfolio that you're looking at today, but it's also true of tourism and it's true of sport and all of these things, that the overwhelming sense that we get is that people are worried about funding and people are worried about skills, actually, and attracting the right skills into the future, and we put those concerns to colleagues on a number of different fronts. But there are so many things going on, they can't really answer all those things yet, and I understand and appreciate that. All we can do is amplify the feedback from most stakeholders in Wales, really.

If I can just add to that. The context that the Minister and Jason describe is absolutely right, in the sector-specific issues that culture faces, and that is largely because of the progress, or lack of, that has been made to date. The main focus of the effort and work, and huge amounts of work going on in Whitehall, is largely on trying to secure a withdrawal agreement and the contingency planning and preparedness work around the prospect of a 'no deal'. The level of effort and time around the future relationship, even though we are so close to the date—

—has not really started, although there are discussions and talks about that. So, at the cross-Governmental level, the Welsh Government White Paper, 'Securing Wales' Future', was received and has been discussed with UK Government. So, David Lidington, the Minister for the Cabinet Office and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, meets regularly with Mark Drakeford, he's met with the First Minister. The positions set out there have remained, and you can see aspects where the UK Government's position has become close to the Welsh Government's position, although much of the effort and focus is still on the withdrawal agreement. The Minister for Housing and Regeneration has also taken up, since the summer, the Welsh Government's representation in the ministerial forum on the negotiations, and that is a discussion at political level about those future relationships, and those topics that might come forward. Those discussions are continuing; there's another one happening next week, and things like cultural accords, and the future relationship on those, are being discussed. But these are all preparatory talks in advance of those negotiations really starting in anger. So, I think that the Minister and Jason are absolutely right that, actually, for all this time, there are huge levels of uncertainty about what the future is.

09:10

Diolch am hynny. Y cwestiwn olaf sydd gen i yw, a oes yna is-bwyllgor diwylliant, am yr hyn sydd o fewn portffolio y pwyllgor yma, yn rhan o'r ETOG, sef yr European transition officials group, o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru?

Thank you for that. The final question I have is: is there a sub-group covering culture and what's in the portfolio of this committee, as part of ETOG, the European transition official group, within the Welsh Government? 

There's a sub-group of ETOG, of which culture, sport and tourism is a part. The sub-group—I think Simon can help me out—but I think it's more to do with economy and skills, and culture, sport and tourism sits within the economy, skills and natural resources group. So, there is a sub-group of which we are a part; there isn't one that's actually labelled as culture, sport, tourism, but we very much feed into that sub-group. And there's also another group—the Brexit reassurance group, which sits within the ESNR group, which aligns with that as well. So, there are lots of groups that culture, sport and tourism feeds into, if that's helpful.

Can I just say, Chair, 'Brexit' is a word I refuse to use, because I don't know what it means, and reassurance I don't believe is possible?

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd, and bore da. I'd like to explore then the situation we are likely to be in, given the level of uncertainty, and it will take a while for things to settle down. Given an incredibly abrupt and a huge constitutional change, then it's perhaps not surprising that we are in this very fluid situation. But there are some approaches and decisions you can make, and I'd just like to look at those, regarding funding. Apart from structural funds, which I'll go on to shortly, there are certain European programmes that are accessible to third-party countries, i.e. countries that are not members of the European Economic Area or the European Union. And I believe Creative Europe and Erasmus+ may be open to membership from non-member states. Are there any particular programmes that you think it would be beneficial for Wales to remain in, and, if so, which are your priorities, in terms of membership continuing of those?

Well, you know what I'm going to say next. We haven't got any funds, we'd have to pay for them. And I refuse—quite frankly, my technical approach is I refuse to discuss issues until we come to them. I don't want to go back to what I said at the beginning, but the present scenario, I think, means that we are now three years, or possibly four years, safely within the single market and the European institutions. I don't see how it is possible—following what the European Union negotiator said overnight, and what I took to be the line of the UK Prime Minister—that there will be a decision taken to the UK Parliament that is likely to be successful, successfully pursued in both Houses. Now, obviously, I declare an interest, because this is something I would certainly turn up and vote on, if the whips here allow me to do so. So, I think we are operating in a different scenario, and this is symbolised by my naive and simple practice of wearing this badge at all times, and I'm going to wear it until the end. And I'm becoming increasingly convinced—and today's my birthday, so I am very much looking forward to the future—

Diolch yn fawr. I thought I'd slip that in. And I'm looking forward to the future, and I believe I may well yet die a European citizen—but not soon, not soon, hopefully.

09:15

Okay, but you are under a duty of due diligence and reasonable preparation. It's difficult to accuse the UK Government of not really performing very well in this regard if you're quite so dismissive of some of the choices you are likely to face. I didn't want to be here either, in terms of our withdrawal—or secession, as I sometimes put it—from the European Union. So, have you or your officials looked at the various programmes outside the structural funds, in the creative sector, that it might be useful for us to remain in? And, if so, which are the ones that you think it may be useful to remain in?

'Yes' is the answer to that, but I don't think it's something that we should be declaring at the moment, tactically. But I'll let Simon—.

In 'Securing Wales' Future', the White Paper, we've put a clear call out to UK Government to continue membership of Erasmus+, Creative Europe, the replacement for Horizon 2020, which are the largest programmes that you could negotiate access to, going beyond. Those discussions continue, so there's a finance quadrilateral. The Cabinet Secretary for Finance will be meeting with his opposite numbers to discuss the future funding programmes, to influence the UK Government's position on those. There is some common ground between Governments on continued access to these programmes. Back to the point I made earlier, the negotiations on the future relationships haven't really started in earnest, so it remains to be seen what the proposition is, but we continue to press for access to those programmes.

As you know, access to those programmes by non-EU members is on the basis that you suffer a net financial loss. You cannot receive more than you pay in, and in fact, in all likelihood you'll get less over the medium to long term than you pay in. So, how are you assessing the network benefits, or the softer benefits or whatever, of being in those programmes and how they accrue to compensate for the financial loss that we are likely to suffer, if it were possible to have analogous programmes just on a UK basis? I think it's quite an important assessment to make.

The feedback we've had from stakeholders across multiple sectors is that the network effects are sometimes even more important than the actual funding. So, in the university sector, having those relationships with researchers across the world, across Europe, is vital for them to do their work. And, in the cultural sector, actually, that sort of internationalist approach to bring people together is one of the most key elements of continuing those relationships. The funding facilitates the joint working, but often people tell us that the networks are the most critical thing for them.

Okay. I'm sure that's a sound judgment, and it will be useful to the various stakeholders and creative industries to hear that.

Dafydd, if I could go on to structural funds, which of course are never open to non-EU members, and the UK Government, as you alluded to earlier, has proposed a UK approach, and you were explaining some of your frustrations about our involvement in how that might be constructed, by my calculation, about 36 per cent of all available grant funding that goes to creative industries in Wales is from the structural fund, so it's a very, very large amount of resource for that sector. So, what are you telling the UK Government, or what would you be telling the UK Government, about how the UK prosperity fund should operate? I know the Welsh Government believes it should just transfer into the block grant, but can we play this game that that's not going to happen, and, if it doesn't, how are you going to influence the UK Government or not on a UK prosperity fund?

The first thing that we are doing is to create our own institution, or internal agency but with external status, to work in this whole sector. There is a manifesto commitment by Welsh Labour, which I am very pleased to implement, and that is to establish Creative Wales. This will now happen. And, as we've established a model already for Cadw within the department, where there is an agency that has relative autonomy within the department but is accountable, obviously, to the director and to me, we will do similarly with Creative Wales. There will be further announcements on this very soon. That will mean that we will have an institution within the department—or an agency within the department—that will have its own distinct budget. I'm looking not just for funding from the UK Government to replace programmes, if and when we are no longer able to participate in European Union programmes, but I'm also looking to raise funds corporately and in partnership, so that we will be able to invest directly in the creative industries.

We already have, of course, an investment of some £15 million, particularly in film and media work, and that is currently worked through a specific media fund, or recommendations that I usually sign off in relation to that media fund. That latest one, obviously—because it's happening as we speak—is the next series of Keeping Faith, and that is obviously a very popular investment, and there are other similar things. So, we are carrying on that work. All that investment, which currently goes through those discrete funds, part of which is also able to draw down European funding, will move into the budget of Creative Wales. That means that we will have then an organisation, or an agency, within the department that will have funds and that will be able to make its own creative decisions in this area. That is extremely important, because one of the difficulties with the way that European funds often operated is that they sometimes did skew what would be the cultural policy or the cultural approaches of devolved agencies. So, having a creative body that will have an oversight will enable us, hopefully, to develop a creative strategy longer term. Jason, do you want to come in here?

09:20

Before you go to the official, can I just get a couple of vital questions before we have further detail? I understand that your vastly preferred approach is predicated on the block grant just receiving a transfer roughly equivalent to what we get at the moment from European programmes. I infer that the Government is then committed that a large portion of that will go to creative industries, so it could fund something approaching the current level of grant. If that doesn't happen and you have to negotiate the best possible UK approach, how are you going about that and trying to influence it? It is important that we understand that there is also a plan B, because it is certainly not assured that the Welsh Government's preferred approach is the one that's going to occur.

These are political decisions. Don't draw me into my views of the deal done with the Ulster unionists, the DUP, in relation to the UK Government, but that is pure fiscal politics. It's not Northern Ireland benefiting because of—. Of course, there are particular needs. It's over and above. Now, it seems to me that we have to take—. In my view, we should have a common front on these matters in devolved institutions. We should use all our political muscle to ensure that Wales can negotiate as Wales with the UK Government in these matters.

Thank you very much. Briefly then, in regard to—. We'll put aside the issues at the moment that happened this week, and potentially the cliff edge of 'no deal' and the parliamentary vote, but, in this regard, in terms of the impasse that there could be, in terms of the inference that we continually hear that there may not be, potentially, a pound-for-pound transfer into the shared prosperity fund, where does that leave our creative industries in Wales in that transitional period, bearing in mind that we have received over £18 million between 2006 and 2017, and the proportionality of that going into very much needed creative industries in Wales? 

Well, all we can do is—. We are committed to maintaining the funding that we currently give in our block. Obviously, we will seek—as I made it clear—further funds outside. I'm increasingly now discussing with major experts in the field of corporate investment, to see if we can indeed attract substantial corporate funds, in partnership.

09:25

Can I just confirm that the Welsh Government and its officials are not in conversations about how a UK approach to the prosperity fund may be shaped, if that, indeed, is what is going to happen?  

Well, I'm glad we're getting beyond the brick wall at last.

Well, excuse me, there is no brick wall here. You must understand, David, that there's a difference between the political position of this Minister, which is to do with negotiating as hard as we can with the UK Government and indicating the political difficulties that they have created because of their policies and their willingness not to discuss with devolved Governments properly, and what, of course, we try to do to continue the business of Government and running Wales. Those things are not in conflict. This is a political position. What else would you expect me to say? Officials, of course, are able to express the position of what Government is doing day to day, and—  

Well, what I'd expect you to say, Minister, is, 'This is my preferred position. It's the one I think that has the most constitutional integrity for the union and in respect of devolution, but we realise that, if there's a UK approach, we have to pursue these priorities within that UK approach. That is very much our second best, but these are the priorities that we would try to pursue, and ensure that that fund is shaped in that manner.' I don't think you lose anything by saying that you do have a second approach, even if you think it is much inferior. You can make that political point that you think it's inferior. I may well agree with you. But, I think that the creative industries need more assurance than you are giving them at the moment in this, I accept, highly fluid situation, which is not of your making. 

Could I just come back to the evidence, obviously—our evidence paper? So, we reaffirmed our position in the Welsh Government White Paper about—. The position is to not lose a single penny of funding. That is our position. It's undeniable that, over the last 20 years, we have effectively used, I believe, European funding to support the sectors that the committee is looking into here. Later on today, the Minister and I—and some of you maybe—will be at St Fagans for the opening. That's a massive project that you could argue would not have gone forward without ERDF funding going into it. Similar projects up at Harlech that we've done—massive capital infrastructure projects—would not have been possible without that European money.

In the event that our position of not losing a single penny doesn't materialise, we will have to cut our cloth accordingly. But we can't say how we are going to cut that cloth now because we don't know what it's going to look like. We'll have to do that. That's just going to be—. We'll be duty-bound to work in that way—

Yes, but you can say what you want in a shared approach like—. The historic environment is identified as a public good in any agricultural support, for instance, which is the kind of practicality that we were hoping to get to, but I think I've gone as far as I can without trying your patience, Chair. 

Okay, thank you very much, David. I know that Siân is chomping at the bit.

Yr argraff yr ydw i'n ei chael yw nad ydy llais Cymru yn ddigon cryf cyn belled â bod y maes penodol yma mewn cwestiwn ar hyn o bryd—hynny yw, nid yn dadlau ynglŷn â beth ddylai ddigwydd wedyn, ond bod y llais yma'n ymddangos fel eich bod chi wedi penderfynu eistedd yn ôl a disgwyl i weld beth sy'n digwydd yn hytrach na dadlau'r achos cryf dros gynnal arian ar gyfer y diwydiannau creadigol yng Nghymru. Does bosib nad dyna yw rôl Gweinidog.

The impression that I get is that the voice of Wales isn't strong enough with regard to this specific area at present. I'm not arguing about what should happen later on, but it appears that you have decided to sit back and to wait to see what happens, rather than arguing the case for maintaining funding for the creative industries in Wales. Surely that's the role of the Minister.

Nage. Nid rôl Gweinidog yn Llywodraeth Cymru ydy mynd â'i gap yn ei law i Lywodraeth San Steffan.

No. It's not the role of a Minister in the Welsh Government to go cap in hand to the Westminster Government.

Nid wyf i'n sôn am gap yn ei law. Beth ydw i'n sôn amdano yw gwneud yr achos yn glir dros—

I'm not talking about cap in hand. What I'm talking about is making the case clear—

Mae'r achos wedi cael ei wneud yn glir yn barhaus gennym ni, ac mi fydd o'n dal i gael ei wneud. Mae'n cael ei wneud yn gyson ar lefel swyddogion ac ar lefel wleidyddol. Ond, nid wyf i'n hyderus o gwbl ein bod ni'n derbyn ymateb. Nid methiant datganoli ydy hynny; methiant Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig ydy hynny. 

The case has been made clear continuously, and it will continue to be made. It's been made continuously at an official level and at a political level. But I'm not confident at all that we're getting a response. This isn't a failure of devolution but a failure of the UK Government.

Oce, rwy'n mynd i adael hynny yn awr. Gallwn ni wastad drafod hynny yn y sesiwn breifat, mae'n siŵr. Jenny Rathbone.

Okay, I'm going to leave that now. We can always discuss that in the private session. Jenny Rathbone.

Just to pursue a final point on this, of course these programmes—Erasmus+, Creative Europe—are not magic money trees. The creative institutions, obviously, are keen that we continue to be part of them, but, politically, do you think that you are going to be able to persuade the Welsh Government and, indeed, the UK Government to contribute to that? Because it's a contributory system, it's a co-operative system. It's not something that's—. It's about collaborating and sharing wealth, and so, politically, do you think you and your Government are going to be able to convince other competing demands?

09:30

Well, within Welsh Government, because we have a very small budget, anything that we spend in the creative field, of course, depends on the agreement of Cabinet Secretaries, and I have had no difficulty, I have to say, so far, where we have worthwhile projects. If they are initiated from the cultural portfolio and then move across to make a demand on greater resources across Government, that has been coming forward, in this area and in tourism. And, indeed, we face this in sport soon because, clearly, there will be demand, in the context of the Birmingham games, for us to spend more in Wales in order to save and benefit from that activity. So, across my portfolio, that question of seeking further resource across Government always arises when we have major issues. I don't know whether, Simon, you'd like to say some more on that.

There's a common position between the Welsh Government's perspective on these programmes, Erasmus+ and creative industries' support, and the UK Government's White Paper about its future intentions, about what it will seek to negotiate. Those discussions have not yet started with Europe, but they are discussing across the UK, between administrations.

No. They are continuing to explore those options.

Fine. Thank you very much.

Just moving on to the international networks, beyond bidding for money and collaborating. Obviously, one of the jewels in our own creative cultural crown is the National Museum Wales. The national museum, in their evidence, highlight the fact they're part of the OpenArch project, the Network of European Museum Organisations and the Learning Museum Network. The museum business is very much a global business, and restoring rare artefacts is a very complex business. So, what's your position on how we would maintain these important networks?

Well, my relationship with the museum is a very close one, as you can imagine, given my background, and I will be with them most of the rest of today. In the discussions I've had, I've encouraged them, in particular in their current new partnership that they are developing, not surprisingly, given the national identity of our very capable and inspirational director general—from Belfast, originally. There are strong relationships now with Ireland, north and south, which they are developing. They had a very successful visit to Dublin only last week, or the week before, and I'm in close touch with what they're doing and encouraging them.

Okay. So, those networks will continue. What about with the rest of Europe?

There are partnerships, also, with Sweden; there are partnerships through the European Science Foundation; there are partnerships with the open air museum in Hungary. I think all this you've had in evidence. So, we encourage all those because it's always been part of the museum's approach. I mean, our national museum, which we will be celebrating further today, obviously, is very highly regarded throughout Europe because it was an early innovative museum in the Skansen tradition of museums. I think that the relationships that it has have been of great benefit to the economy of Wales as well, and to the tourist economy, obviously.

Can I come in—sorry—on that, just on the network point, really? There's a plethora of different networks that our partner organisations, such as the museum, are engaged with. Not all of them are EU constructs, some sit outside the EU, and the strong feeling that we get in terms of engagement with the sector is that they are doing everything that they can to maintain those networks going forward, and we're obviously encouraging that.

So, you don't think there'll be any barriers to continuing that, regardless of what the final outcome is?

I could not say with any assurance that there would be no barriers; it would depend on the network; it would depend on the arm's-length body, or the partner organisation doing it.

09:35

Okay. One final point, which is around the impact of all this on our higher education institutions. I know you're not the higher education Minister, but clearly, the creative impact of our universities is huge, and if they're not any longer able to access Horizon 2020, what do you think is likely to be the cultural impact on them?

That really should be answered by the higher education Minister. What I will say is that a big partner of ours, as it is a partner of the Arts Council of Wales and Wales Arts International, is the British Council, which has done tremendous work. And I declare an interest because my own family have benefited doing European work through the British Council, as I've benefited in the past, and I think it's very important that that work continues. My understanding, in our discussions with the British Council, is that they're very keen to be able to do that.

Now, whether they can replace what is lost—. What I'm particularly worried about, especially for the young artists and performers in Wales who have benefited from the opportunity to learn and develop their skills on mainland Europe in all sorts of ways since the late 1970s and the early 1980s, is that this will be lost and the cultural benefit of growing up and developing cultural activity in dance, music and performance arts especially, in a European context, will be lost. As you know, my face is fully set against any populist nationalism, because I believe that it reduces people's identity and people's enjoyment of life, really. I believe that diversity and being part of that European and worldwide diversity is essential to the health of our artistic activity.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Jenny Rathbone. Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone. Siân Gwenllian.

Un o'r materion a allai effeithio ar beth rydych chi newydd ei ddweud, rŵan, wrth gwrs, ydy’r newidiadau posib os ydyn ni’n gadael y farchnad sengl i'r ffordd mae llafur yn symud o gwmpas Ewrop. A oes yna sectorau penodol o fewn y maes treftadaeth, diwylliant a diwydiannau creadigol sy’n mynd i gael eu heffeithio yn ddirfawr gan y newidiadau yma?

One of the issues that could affect what you've just said now, of course, is the possible changes if we leave the single market to the way that labour moves around Europe. Are there specific sectors within the heritage, culture and creative industries sectors that are going to be affected immensely by these changes?

Yn amlwg, lle mae yna lafurlu wedi bod yn symud ar draws Ewrop mewn meysydd celfyddydol ac mewn meysydd yn ymwneud â’r cyfryngau, mae’n bwysig ein bod ni’n gallu cadw’r symud yna i ddigwydd. Mae cyd-gynyrchiadau gyda gweddill Ewrop wedi bod yn rhan hanfodol o weithgaredd BBC Cymru, S4C a’r holl gynhyrchwyr annibynnol, ac mae’n bwysig iawn bod hyn yn parhau. Yn anffodus, ni ches i gyfle i fynd i MIPCOM y tro diwethaf yma, ond mae’n ddigalon iawn edrych ar y posibilrwydd na fydd modd, efallai, yn y dyfodol, i weithwyr y cyfryngau a’r diwydiannau creadigol yng Nghymru i bartneru yn y modd maen nhw wedi gallu ei wneud yn y gorffennol.

Clearly, where there has been a workforce moving across Europe in the arts sector and in media sectors, it’s important that we can keep that movement happening. Co-productions with the rest of Europe have been an essential part of the activities of BBC Wales, S4C and all the independent producers, and it's very important that this continues. Unfortunately, I didn't have the opportunity to go to MIPCOM this last time, but it’s very sad to look at the possibility that there will not be an opportunity in the future for media workers and those in the creative industries in Wales to have partnerships in the way that they’ve been able to in the past.

Rydych chi’n gweld y sector cyfryngau, felly, yn benodol, yn cael ei effeithio’n waeth, efallai, na rhai o’r elfennau eraill o’ch portffolio chi.

You see the media sector, therefore, in particular, as being affected worse than some of the other elements in your portfolio.

Wel, na, nid wyf yn dweud ei fod yn waeth, jest dyna'r bobl rydw i wedi bod yn siarad â nhw yn ddiweddar gan fod y digwyddiadau yma—. Mae’n gyfnod pan fydd yna ffeiriau a chyd-gyfarfodydd rhyngwladol yn digwydd. Rydw i wedi bod yn siarad â phenaethiaid gwahanol gyfryngau ac mae yna ofid ynglŷn â hynny. Mae’r sector ôl-gynhyrchu’n gryf iawn yn y gogledd-orllewin, fel y gwyddost ti cystal â minnau, ac y mae hefyd yn y de-ddwyrain yn ardal Caerdydd a’r Fro, ac felly mae cynnal y ddau glwstwr yna’n allweddol i’r economi greadigol yng Nghymru. Jason?

Well, no, I'm not saying that it's worse, just in terms of the people I've been talking to recently, as these events—. It is a period when there are fairs and joint international meetings occurring. I've been speaking, of course, with the different heads of media and there is a concern about that. The post-production sector is very strong in the north-west, as you know as well as I do, and also in the south-east, in the Cardiff and Vale area, and therefore, maintaining those two clusters is key to the creative economy in Wales. Jason?

I'll just come back to the evidence paper again, I think, because a lot of this is going to depend on what the future immigration system is for the UK. We await UK Government's White Paper on this. I think Simon will confirm—that's effectively 18 months overdue. We're waiting for that White Paper and what it's going to shape up as. We know from our engagement with the sector, as I mentioned earlier that skills are a massive concern. So, we will obviously be feeding into that to try and amplify those concerns again, because these sectors are priorities for us, but we want to make sure that these sectors can get the labour force that they need going forward. So, we await that White Paper with interest, really.

09:40

Felly, mae'n swnio i mi fod yna ddim llawer iawn o wybodaeth wirioneddol ynglŷn ag effaith ar sectorau penodol, ac mae Ffilm Cymru Wales wedi dweud, er enghraifft, fod yna ddim data cynhwysfawr ar symudiadau llafur yn y sector celfyddydau a diwylliannol rhwng yr Undeb Ewropeaidd a Chymru, a bod angen casglu hwnnw ar frys. Felly, nid yw'r darlun yn glir. A ddylech chi fod yn ceisio cael gwell darlun er mwyn gallu cynllunio ymlaen? 

So, it sounds to me like there isn’t a great deal of information about the effect on specific sectors. Ffilm Cymru Wales have said, for example, that there is no comprehensive data on the movement of labour in the arts and cultural sector between the European Union and Wales, and that this should be gathered as a matter of urgency. So, the picture isn’t clear. Should you be trying to get that clearer picture to be able to plan ahead of time?

Wel, nid yw jest yn dibynnu arnom ni. Y broblem ystadegol ydy problem yn ymwneud efo sut mae cyflogaeth yn cael ei ddangos, ac mae cyflogaeth yn cael ei ddangos yn bennaf ar lefel aelod wladwriaeth a'r Undeb Ewropeaidd, yn hytrach nag ar lefel genedlaethol o fewn y Deyrnas Unedig. Dyna ydy'r pwynt, rwy'n credu, y mae Ffilm Cymru yn ei wneud yn fanna. 

Well, it doesn’t just depend on us. The statistic problem is a problem relating to the way that employment is set forth, and employment is set forth mainly on a member state level, not on a nation level in the UK. That is the point, I think, that Ffilm Cymru is making there.

Rydych chi wedi sôn am ddymuniad i weld system newydd sy'n cysylltu mudo yn agos â chyflogaeth. Sut fuasai hynny yn gweithio? 

You’ve spoken about your desire to see a new migration system that links migration more closely to employment. How would that work?

Os oes yna gyfyngiadau—ac rwyf yn erbyn hynny, wrth gwrs, fel rwyf wedi ei wneud yn hollol glir—os oes yna gyfyngiadau i fod ar symudedd poblogaeth, rydym yn awyddus iawn i allu canfod y sectorau arbennig rydym ni yn awyddus i weld parhad cyflogaeth ynddyn nhw, ac mae hyn yn arbennig o wir nid jest i'r diwydiant cyfryngau, ond i faes arall sydd yn bwysig iawn yn fy mhortffolio i, sef y maes diwydiant ymwelwyr. Mae'r ddibyniaeth yn y sector yna ar ddinasyddion o'r Undeb Ewropeaidd i weithio yn y diwydiant yna yn allweddol iawn, ac mi fuasai colli'r llafurlu yna heb allu sicrhau naill ai eu bod nhw'n gallu parhau i weithio, neu fod yna hyfforddi llafurlu arall—ac mae hynny yn mynd i gymryd amser; allwn ni ddim rhagweld yn union faint fyddai i hynny ddigwydd—i lenwi'r math o arbenigedd a safon o gynnig gwasanaeth sydd i'w gael gan bobl o'r Undeb Ewropeaidd ar draws yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn y diwydiant yna ar hyn o bryd, bydd hynny yn difetha ein cynnig twristiaeth ni hefyd. Mae'r rhain yn faterion nad oes neb fel pe buasent wedi rhagweld mai dyma'n fersiwn ni o ddim deall y byddai gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn effeithio ar y berthynas rhwng Iwerddon, de a'r gogledd, ac Iwerddon a'r Deyrnas Unedig. Hynny ydy, mae yna dwpdra mawr o gwmpas yr holl faes yma sydd yn hynod o ddigalon i rywun fel fi.

If there are restrictions—and I’m against that, of course, as I've made very clear—if there are restrictions on the movement of people, we’re very keen to be able to find the specific sectors where we’re keen to see this movement continue, and this is true not only for the media industry, but also for another area that is very important in my portfolio, which is the tourism sector. The reliance in that sector on citizens from the European Union working in that industry is very key, and losing that workforce without ensuring that they could either continue to work, or that there was the training of another workforce—and that would take time; and we can’t foresee exactly how long that would take—to fill that sort of expertise and standard of service that is being offered by citizens of the European Union across the European Union in that industry at the moment, that is going to destroy our tourism offer as well. This is one of the issues that nobody seems to have foreseen, that this is our version of not understanding that leaving the European Union would affect the relationship between Ireland, north and south, and Ireland and the United Kingdom. That is, there is a great deal of foolishness around this whole area, which is very disheartening for someone like me.

Felly, nid oes gennych fanylion ynglŷn â'r system newydd yma a allai gysylltu mudo yn agos â chyflogaeth. Beth am, er enghraifft, gwneud eithriad o bobl sydd yn gweithio yn y maes diwylliant, treftadaeth a'r diwydiannau creadigol—fod artistiaid creadigol, efallai, ddim angen fisa? 

So, you don’t have any details about this new system that could link migration more closely to employment. What, for example, about making an exception for people working in the culture, heritage and creative industries, so that creative artists wouldn’t need a visa, perhaps?

Na, rwy'n meddwl bod hynny yn hollol anymarferol. Os ydych chi yn mynd i greu sefyllfa lle mae yna ddau giw fisa ac un ohonyn nhw yn honni bod yn greadigol a'r lleill ddim, mae'n mynd i fod yn fwy digalon nag y mae rŵan. Mi fydd fy nghyfeillion yn yr asiantaeth diogelu ffiniau'r Deyrnas Unedig ym maes Awyr Caerdydd, mi gân nhw amser difyr iawn efo hynny. Simon. 

No, I don’t think so. I think that’s completely impractical. If you’re going to create a situation where there are two queues and one is claiming that they’re creative and another one isn’t, it’s going to be more disheartening than it is now. My colleagues in the UK border control agency in Cardiff Airport, they would have a very interesting time with that. Simon.

Nid fy syniad i, gyda llaw—syniad y cyngor celfyddydau ydy hyn. 

It’s not my idea. It’s the idea of the arts council, by the way.

Mi allaf i anghytuno efo beth mae corff rwy'n ei ariannu yn ei wneud. Simon. 

I can disagree with what a body that I fund is doing. Simon.

The Welsh Government's paper, 'Brexit and Fair Movement of People', sets out the details around how a migration system post Brexit might work from a Welsh Government perspective, protecting the interest of Wales. It seeks to secure public confidence in the system that, actually, people coming in have a connection to a job or finding work, a system that operates in many other countries—indeed, many other European countries have a closer link with employment and migration coming in. It also makes the argument about the enforcement of standards in the labour market. That's offering the right minimum wage and the working standards and rights actually being applied across all workforces, including those that include migrant labour. So, all of that is about promoting confidence in the system and making the case that, actually, for sectors like the cultural industries, the Home Office doesn't set a high wage-rate bar for people coming in, which would seriously damage organisations like orchestras and theatres and so on, because, unless you're highly paid and can get migration access, then that would seriously damage a sector like the cultural industries.

09:45

A colleague of ours heard, when he went to Brussels recently, that some of the European orchestras are based in the UK and there might be an issue with the fact that they might relocate to mainland Europe if Brexit goes ahead. I was just wondering whether that's something you'd heard as a concern.

There are no details of the UK Government's position at the moment, so actually how it would work is yet to be seen. We do know that the system for the registering of current EU citizens in the UK— the pilot scheme to actually give them settled status of staying in the UK—that's been an offer made to those citizens, but, how the future system works, that is unclear. In other areas you see—. Imperial College in London has set up a strategic partnership with a university, I think in Germany, so that they can have workers operating across both institutions to get around some of these potential pitfalls. So, organisations are starting to make those kinds of arrangements.

Could I just add, on that settlement scheme there, that it'll be open by 30 March 2019 and it'll be open then until 30 June 2021, so those can apply for settled status during that period? So that, to a certain extent, might provide some stability, but the devil would be in the detail. Like I say, we await this White Paper from the UK Government.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. My questions are going to be in two parts, and they're with regard to the impact on touring. Many organisations are concerned that the introduction of barriers to artists touring on the continent will be problematic, and the arts council notes that any introduction of mobility restrictions, coupled with tariffs, will create new borders for our large-scale arts organisations, and although these larger organisations may feel that these barriers are problematic, if you like, the smaller companies will find that these obstacles are almost insurmountable. So, I'd like to—. And also the smaller companies have larger inflexibility regarding financial impacts, so they may be unable to cushion the effects of regulation of movement. So, I'd like your ideas on how this can be possibly overcome, please.

Well, I don't think it can, quite frankly. I think we are bound to lead to a disincentive, especially for those individual performers—and again I declare an interest—who have been working on mainland Europe and elsewhere over the years in all kinds of productions, and undertaking training work as well. There will be a disincentive for those people because, clearly, they will have to surmount the difficulties that you've outlined, and I don't see that we can avoid those issues. I can't imagine we could establish some sort of agency that would look after all the individual performers that have taken advantage of the open market in artistic activity over the years, or replace the single market with a mechanism that could overcome the kind of bureaucratic interference with people's movement that will be established if we leave the single market.

And while I'm talking about that, it's not just something that affects the culture industry. I've been spending a few days recently at the port of Holyhead for various reasons, and I have to say that the horror with which not only Stena but also the drivers of all the roll-on, roll-off vehicles that go through that port all day and all night, look at the idea of a closed border between Wales and Ireland, which is currently the main route of access for all sorts of things, and this nonsense of having a border at sea—people are laughing out loud all over Holyhead when this is suggested. So, the lack of foresight as to the impact on current trading relationships and movement of people and goods and services is something that has not been thought through at all, I have to say.

09:50

So, the National Dance Company Wales are stating that touring income and brand benefits again are in jeopardy if the tour without restriction is removed. Ffilm Cymru has called for the Welsh Government to provide flexible, international trade and early research and development support. They ask if audiovisual will be included in future free trade agreements, as this has formerly been excluded as a cultural exception. So, can I ask for your thoughts on this? Is there anything positive that we can look at regarding this, as Ffilm Cymru has suggested?

Ffilm Cymru haven't discussed this with us, but I have seen their evidence to you and, if they want to try and have positive discussions with the UK Border Agency, good luck to them.

Can I add? The touring part is generally shorter than a year's process, so that means that it's not strictly speaking in the migration system; it's actually temporary working and, actually, different rules apply there. So, it's less restricted there, but, actually, there are details to be worked through there. 

In terms of impact and future free trade arrangements, they're long and complex negotiations and, typically, they start focusing on movements of large goods and so on, and often they don't include services, but some of them do. Welsh Government has built up trade policy capability to try and influence these for the benefit of Welsh organisations, but it's a long and drawn-out process to get to the detail of these things.

Could I just come back on that briefly?

Briefly, just on—. You mentioned tours. I think it goes further than that. Tourists—we know from our work on the tourism side that there is a massive risk. We know, anecdotally, that there are large tour operators across Europe now actively, and probably quite rightly, informing people who are looking to book to come to the UK to note Brexit and to note that there could be massive disruption next year. We know that that's happening across the continent. And that's going to have an impact. We don't know the level of that impact yet, but there is going to be an impact. So, it's going to impact on tourers and it's going to impact on tourists. We have to assess what that's going to be when we get more evidence, really. But there's definitely a risk.

Yes. Just looking at the issues around regulatory frameworks and impacts, I think, in your paper, Minister, you say that the biggest impact would be on digital records and intellectual property and copyright. Is the Welsh Government doing work on those issues? Is that something that you are also collaborating on in terms of impact?

There is an EU copyright Bill going through at the moment that officials are working really closely with. So, our position is that, whatever happens post Brexit, the same protections that will be in place as a consequence of this legislation will be in place in the UK as well. So, that's the kind of negotiating position at the moment. So, there's a very extensive Bill going through at the moment, really.

But it's also important, obviously, that, in relation to all digital activity, the regulations, not only within the European Union but worldwide, are ones that we can participate in because we work, obviously, through the medium of a kind of English and that's very important worldwide.

Yes. The position, really, is that what we want to see in there are clear, enforceable rules that will be applicable in the UK. We know that they will be as a consequence of the EU legislation; we just need to ensure that, when we're outside of the EU, the same controls will be in place.

If I can just add—. I expect the ministerial forum on EU negotiations to turn to the issues of joint regulatory alignments on those underpinning things like intellectual property and copyright just to try and secure a partnership arrangement with Europe that allows that seamless access. And that's something that I think would be in the early stages of the future economic partnership negotiations when they start in earnest.

There would be common cause, obviously, which would come up at the JMC, with Scottish colleagues as well and with Northern Ireland.

Iawn? Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod i mewn yma heddiw. Os oes mwy o gwestiynau gyda ni, byddwn yn ysgrifennu atoch chi, mae'n siŵr. Ond diolch am ddod i mewn atom a mwynhewch Sain Ffagan y prynhawn yma. A phen-blwydd hapus—nid wyf i'n mynd i ganu.

Okay? Okay, thank you very much to you for joining us this morning. If we have any further questions, we will write to you. But thank you to you and enjoy St Fagans this afternoon. And happy birthday—I'm not going to sing.

09:55

Diolch yn fawr. Mae eich clywed chi'n dweud hynny, Gadeirydd, yn ddigon i fi. [Chwerthin.]

Thank you very much. Hearing you say that, Chair, is enough for me. [Laughter.]

Wnawn ni gael seibiant o bum munud ac wedyn dod nôl. Diolch.

We will have a short break for five minutes and then return. Thank you.

10:00

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 09:55 a 10:04.

The meeting adjourned between 09:55 and 10:04.

3. Ymchwiliad byr i oblygiadau ymadael â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd i feysydd o fewn cylch gwaith y pwyllgor: sesiwn dystiolaeth 2
3. Short inquiry into the implications of Brexit on areas within the committee's remit: Evidence session 2

Symud ymlaen at eitem 3 ar yr agenda, ymchwiliad byr i oblygiadau ymadael â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd i feysydd o fewn cylch gwaith y pwyllgor yma, sesiwn dystiolaeth 2, mae gyda ni Pauline Burt, prif weithredwr Ffilm Cymru Wales, Eluned Haf, pennaeth Celfyddydau Rhyngwladol Cymru, a Zélie Flach, swyddog Ewropeaidd Celfyddydau Rhyngwladol Cymru. Croeso i chi yma heddiw. Fel mae'n siŵr rydych chi'n gwybod, rydym ni'n gofyn cwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol. Rwyf i eisiau gofyn y cwestiwn cyntaf, sef: sut ydych chi wedi bod yn ymgysylltu â Llywodraeth Cymru ac â Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig i godi consýrn gyda nhw ynglŷn â'r hyn sydd o fewn eich portffolios penodol chi, er mwyn sicrhau bod unrhyw beth sydd yn digwydd yng nghyd-destun Brexit yn rhywbeth rydych chi wedi gallu chwarae rôl mor ddwfn ac rydych chi'n gallu yn hynny o beth? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Moving on to item 3 on the agenda, the short inquiry into the implications of Brexit on areas within the committee's remit, evidence session 2, we have Pauline Burt, chief executive of Ffilm Cymru Wales, Eluned Haf, head of Wales Arts International, and Zélie Flach, European officer for Wales Arts International. A warm welcome to you here today. As I am sure you'll know, we ask questions on different themes. I wanted to ask the first question, which is: how have you been engaging with the Welsh Government and with the United Kingdom Government to raise your concerns with them about what is within your specific portfolio to ensure that anything that happens in the context of Brexit is something that you've been able to play as deep a role in as possible in that regard? Thank you.

10:05

Fe ddechreuaf i. Diolch yn fawr iawn. A gaf i ddechrau drwy ddweud 'diolch' am gael y cyfle i ddod i siarad heddiw? Rydw i'n meddwl ei bod yn sesiwn andros o bwysig, ac yn arbennig yn y cyfnod yma sydd i ddod. Rydw i'n meddwl hefyd fod yna ychydig bach o ddealltwriaeth ar hyn o bryd ynglŷn â'r diffyg gwybodaeth a'r anwybodaeth, os liciwch chi, ynglŷn â beth sydd i ddod, a sut mae pawb yn trio pwyntio at rywun arall o hyd. Felly, maddeuwch i mi os ydw i'n gwneud ychydig o hynny hefyd, ond mae hyn yn rhan o'r ffenomen sy'n mynd ymlaen, rydw i'n meddwl.

Rydym ni fel Celfyddydau Rhyngwladol Cymru wedi bod yn cymryd rhan mewn nifer o fforymau gwahanol, yn arbennig drwy'r Creative Industries Federation, drwy ein gwaith ni yn ddiweddar mewn sesiwn a gafodd ei threfnu gan y British Council ym Mrwsel o'r enw 'Moving Beyond Brexit', drwy'r gwaith fforwm Ewropeaidd rydym ni wedi bod yn gwneud efo'n sector ein hunain, a hefyd yn ein hymateb i'r ymholiadau gwahanol sydd wedi bod yn mynd ymlaen yn y Cynulliad yma, ond hefyd yn Nhŷ'r Arglwyddi ac mewn llefydd eraill. Felly, rydw i'n meddwl ein bod ni wedi bod yn trio cadw, gymaint ag rydym ni'n gallu, uwchben y portffolio.

Beth fuaswn i'n dweud sydd wedi bod yn andros o anodd ydy—ac un o'r prif bwyntiau i fi yn hyn—nid ydy diwylliant yn faes Ewropeaidd, fel y cyfryw, nid fel amaeth neu bysgodfeydd, os liciwch chi, lle mae cyfrifoldeb clir ar gyfer diwylliant. Rydw i'n meddwl bod effaith hynny, ynglŷn â ble mae diwylliant yn ffitio i mewn i'r agenda trafod a datblygu yn sgil Brexit, yn herio pawb ohonom ni. Felly, tra bo cymaint o agweddau yn cael eu trafod, ynglŷn â'r bordor, ynglŷn â pholisi tramor, ynglŷn â threthi, ynglŷn â masnach, cyflogaeth, ac yn y blaen, fel rydym ni wedi clywed y bore yma—mae cymaint o hynny wedi ei ganoli, neu efallai bod agweddau efo agweddau Ewropeaidd. Ond pan mae gyda chi ddiwylliant wedi'i ddatganoli, rydw i'n meddwl ei fod o'n bwynt bod yn rhaid inni ystyried lle mae'r trafodaethau'n mynd yn eu blaen. Ac mae hwn, mewn ffordd, yn dir newydd i ni i gyd, lle nad oes fforymau penodol ar gyfer trafod hyn yn arbennig. 

I'll start. Thank you very much. May I start by saying 'thank you' for the opportunity to speak here today? I think it's an extremely important session, and in particular in this time to come. I also think that there's a little bit of understanding at the moment about the lack of information and the ignorance, if you like, about what is to come, and how everybody is trying to point the finger at somebody else all the time. So, forgive me if I do a little bit of that as well, but this is part of the phenomenon that's going on at the moment, I think. 

We as Wales Arts International have been taking part in a number of different forums, in particular through the Creative Industries Federation, through our work recently in a session arranged by the British Council in Brussels, 'Moving Beyond Brexit', through the European forum work we've been doing with our own sector, and also in responding to the different inquiries that have been going on in this Assembly, but also in the House of Lords and other places. So, I think we have been trying to keep on top of our portfolio, as much as we can.

What I would say that's been difficult—and one of the main points for me in this—is that culture isn't an area that's a European one, as such, not like agriculture or fisheries, if you like, where there is a clear responsibility for culture. I think the impact of that, in terms of where culture fits into the discussion and development agenda as a result of Brexit, challenges all of us. Therefore, while many aspects are   being discussed, regarding the border, foreign policy, taxes, trade, employment, and so forth, as we've heard this morning—so much of that is centred, or perhaps aspects of that have a European aspect. But when culture is devolved, I think it's a point that we have to consider where the discussions are ongoing. And this, in a way, is a new area for all of us, so there aren't any specific forums to discuss this in particular.

Good morning. Right the way from the beginning, we did surveys as a sector. We went out to our client base and had just over 50 responses within a month of the referendum result, and then we fed back the results of that to the arts council and to Government, to our colleagues within the creative industries team. But most of our liaison has really been at central Government and centralised within collaborative forums.

So, we've been inputting with the Creative Industries Council and with the Creative Industries Federation, whether that's been at Creative Industries Federation-held events—I'm just trying to think, you were on the panel in Swansea, and maybe two or three other places in Wales—again quite soon after the referendum, or at multiple round-tables. So, they've looked at very specific areas, things like place making, talent pipelines, skills—they've really drilled down into particular areas. So, as much as possible—I'm saying here that there's been eight to 10 different round-tables with multiples meetings—we've tried to sort of divide and conquer between us and be in as many places as possible to have the voice of Wales represented in those discussions.

We also have regular meetings, roughly every two months that the British Film Institute convenes, and that's across the sector. So, we have games, distribution, exhibition, film, television, various interests around the table, and that regularly invites representatives from No. 10 and the Department for Exiting the European Union so that we can speak directly with them. That's been very much focusing around the need to continue visa-free, if possible, movement, to make that as frictionless as possible—here have been a lot of centred conversations around that—and then, from the television sector, concerns about countries of origin and how that might impact upon broadcasting in licensing, and then looking at ongoing potential drift from a regulatory point of view, from copyright, digital single market—not being at that table any more as that area evolves. So, it's a frequent and ongoing dialogue.

10:10

A allaf i jest ofyn yn fras, achos roeddwn i'n gweld rhai ohonoch chi yn y sesiwn flaenorol—a oes barn gyda chi am yr hyn roedd y Gweinidog yma wedi'i ddweud? Wrth gwrs, rydych chi'n dweud bod y system yma wedi cael ei datganoli. A ydych chi'n hapus gyda'r hyn sydd yn digwydd o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru? A ydych chi'n credu bod yna ddigon yn digwydd i gymryd dadleuon artistiaid ac yn y blaen i'r Deyrnas Unedig ar eu rhan nhw?

Can I just ask, because I saw some of you listening to the previous session—do you have an opinion on what the Minister said here? Of course, you're saying that this system has been devolved. Are you content with what is happening within the Welsh Government? Do you feel that enough is happening to take on board the argument and concerns of artists and so on, and to voice them at a UK level on their behalf?

Nid ydw i'n meddwl y buaswn i'n dweud fy mod i'n hapus efo beth sy'n mynd ymlaen yn gyffredinol, ac mae hynny ar lefel Ewropeaidd, lle mae'r drafodaeth, fwy neu lai, yn—wel, nid ydy hi'n bodoli, mewn gwirionedd. Ar lefel Brydeinig, rydw i'n meddwl bod y blaenoriaethau yn amlwg yn gorfod bod mewn meysydd lle mae cyfrifoldeb Ewropeaidd, lle maen nhw'n edrych ar bethau fel Europol a meddyginiaeth a phob math o bethau eraill. Ond wedyn, yng nghyd-destun hynny, mae diwylliant a'r diwydiannau creadigol wedi cael eu dad-flaenoriaethu, mewn ffordd, oherwydd natur beth sydd yn cael ei drafod a chymaint sydd yna i'w wneud mewn cyn lleied o amser. Felly, nid ydw i'n meddwl y buaswn i'n dweud fy mod i'n hapus efo dim o hynny.

Mewn cyd-destun Cymreig, byddwn i'n dweud mai rŵan ydy'r amser i fod yn cydweithio ar draws y portffolio, a'i fod yn un pwysig iawn. Er nad ydym ni'n dal yn siŵr am gymaint o agweddau gwahanol o beth sydd i ddod, yr hyn rydym ni’n sylweddoli, mewn ffordd, ydy'r pwysigrwydd i fod yn datblygu o leiaf ddealltwriaeth ynglŷn ag, os nad oes yna ddim deal, sut ydym ni’n mynd i ddelio efo'r sefyllfa, sut ydym ni i gyd fel cyrff yn mynd i fod yn setio i fyny risk registers a phob math o bethau eraill i fod yn delio efo effaith penderfyniadau.    

I don't think I'd say that I'm happy with what's going on in general, and that's on a European level, where the discussion, more or less—well, it doesn't exist, in reality. On a British level, I think the priorities, clearly, have to be in areas where there is European responsibility, where they're looking at things such as Europol, medicine and all kinds of other things. But then, in the context of that, culture and the creative industries have been deprioritised, in a way, because of the nature of what's being discussed and all that has to be done in so little time. So, I do not think I'd say I'm happy any of that. 

In a Welsh context, I would say that the time now is for us to be collaborating across the portfolio, and it's an important time. Even though we're still unsure about so many different aspects of what is to come, what we do realise, in a way, is the importance of developing at least an understanding, if there is no deal, of how we're going to deal with the situation, how are we all as bodies going to be setting up risk registers and such things to deal with the impact of decisions.

A ydych chi'n cael help gan Lywodraeth Cymru er mwyn gwneud y pethau hynny—y risk analysis, casglu'r data, a thrafodaethau gyda Llywodraeth San Steffan? Dyna beth rydw i'n trio ei ofyn, nid a ydych chi'n siarad efo'ch gilydd, gyda phob parch, ond â Llywodraeth Cymru yn benodol.

Are you receiving help from the Welsh Government to do that—risk analysis, to gather those data, and the discussions with the Westminster Government? That's what I'm trying to ask, not whether you're talking to each other, with due respect, but specifically with Welsh Government.

Wel, fe gaiff Pauline ateb ar ei rhan ei hun, ond o'n hochr ni, rydw i'n meddwl mai beth rydym ni'n sylweddoli ydy cymaint o waith sydd yna i'w wneud a chyn lleied o adnoddau dynol sydd yna—boed hynny ar lefel Llywodraeth, boed hynny o fewn y cyngor celfyddydau, boed hynny o fewn y sefydliadau eu hunain. Mae holl waith Brexit yn dod ar ben toriadau sydd wedi digwydd dros y 10 mlynedd ddiwethaf, mewn ffordd, nid yn unig yn ein sector ni, ond yn ehangach yn yr economi. Wedyn, mae'r drafodaeth yma ar ben hynny, yn ogystal efo'r angen i fod yn ailnegydu ac ailystyried marchnadoedd gwahanol yn y byd a datblygu'r cysylltiadau hynny efo chyn lleied o adnoddau, sydd n rhoi pwysau ar bawb. Ac mae hynny'n mynd ar draws Llywodraeth ac ar draws asiantaethau, byddwn i'n ei ddweud. 

Well, Pauline can answer on behalf of herself, but from our side, what we recognise is that much work is to be done and how few human resources that are there, either on a Government level, or the arts council or the institutions themselves. The Brexit work is coming on top of cuts that have existed over the last decade, in a way, not only in our sector, but wider in the economy. Then, these discussions are on top of that, as well as the need to be renegotiating and reconsidering different markets in the world and developing those links with so few resources, which places pressure on everybody. And that goes across Government and agencies, I would say.

I would say there's been a lack of communication from Welsh Government into this sector. This is the first round-table of this type that I've been invited to. I've had no communication, directly, from the creative industries team within Welsh Government on this. As I say, we've supplied it with information that we've got. Having said that, film is an international business and scale is very important at a time when there's a lot of noise across all sectors with multiple concerns. And so having a collaborative approach is very important, but also having a voice with the distinctiveness of the issues around Wales is very important.

It was great—. I know there were a number of people—Jane, Rhianon and Jenny included, and Mark Drakeford—who came and joined a session. Was that yesterday or the day before? Time's whizzing by. That was in the old Senedd building debating chamber, and that was very welcome, but it's rare.

So, if that's the case, what are you trying to do in relation to—? Obviously, Dafydd was here earlier and said, 'If Ffilm Cymru want to raise those concerns with me, they can.' What are you trying to do to get those door's opened so that you can make those representations as clearly and as eloquently as you possibly can?

As I say, we're sharing the documents that are coming through that are well researched, with big evidence bases behind them, and, as I think I put in my evidence, I would encourage you to engage with the BFI and the CIF on this, because they have done a very significant amount of evidence gathering there, and they've taken quite a lot of legal advice, and ongoing legal advice, across what is obviously a very complex area, and that is relevant across the UK. So, we share what we have, but we're not having much back, to answer your specific question.

10:15

Byddwn i'n hoffi ategu, os caf i—mae gennym ni gyfarfod yn mynd i fod efo'r Gweinidog ddydd Mawrth nesaf, yn dilyn fforwm rhyngwladol Celfyddydau Rhyngwladol Cymru ym mis Gorffennaf, pan wnaeth y Gweinidog wahodd y sector celfyddydol yn ehangach i ddod at ein gilydd i drafod beth fyddai'r strategaeth ryngwladol, efallai, yn y celfyddydau yn mynd i edrych fel yn dilyn Brexit. Felly, rydw i'n meddwl bod yna gyfle a sgôp i fod yn trafod beth ydy'r strategaeth ehangach i ddod.

I would like to supplement that, if I may—we're going to have a meeting with the Minister next Tuesday, following the international forum of the Wales Arts International in July, when the Minister invited the broader arts sector to come together to discuss what the international strategy in the arts, perhaps, would look like following Brexit. So, I think there is an opportunity and scope to be discussing what the broader strategy will be.

Os medrwch chi roi gwybodaeth inni ynglŷn â sut mae'r cyfarfod hynny'n mynd, byddai hynny yn help mawr i ni o ran ein gwaith yn y maes yma.

If you could give us some information about how that meeting goes, then that would be a great help to us in terms of our work in this area.

Wrth gwrs. Diolch.

Of course. Thank you.

Symudwn ymlaen at Rhianon Passmore nawr.

We'll move on to Rhianon Passmore now.

Diolch, Chair. With regard to the analysis, we've talked a little about film, but with regard to the Welsh arts council and the international arm, in terms of your mandate around that, what analysis has there been of thee impact of a 'no deal' around the creative sector in Wales, and what impact do you think that will have in terms of whether it's European structural funding in that transition, and wider to that?

I think the honest answer to that is 'little', and the reason why I'm saying that is because I think our attention has been very much like a lot of other organisations towards the funding element. I think the realisation at the moment is that funding is part of it, but actually trading, and the economy at large, and how we fit into border issues and the rest of it is really daunting, and it's an aspect that people have certainly been able to take for granted to an extent. Saying that, organisations are also familiar with having to deal with visa issues through the different tier systems for the rest of the world, so it's not like people have not totally had to deal with those situations, but the scale and size—. And I think one of the key points that came back home to a lot of us that participated in the British Council event in Brussels last month was that this is a two-way thing. This is not just about us taking out the impact on Wales and the UK. It's actually multilateral, and the impact on organisations in Europe is equally daunting in many ways, and it's very easy to forget that.

We had testimony from broader organisations from the European Union who were really questioning about how they would be able to prioritise the UK at large as a market moving forward, and that's really frightening. We've heard from individual artists and organisations about the declining number of bookings they might have, even as soon as April. So, I think we're calling for a data exercise to be carried out. The Arts Council of England have done data to an extent, which has been very valuable. We replicated a similar exercise they did back in 2016. I would like to see that done in a more joined-up way, and not just within Wales, but actually within a UK and a European context, because of the impact on people being able to come and perform in our festivals, and work in our national dance company, who employ 50 per cent of their dancers from the EU. So, the complexity of the situation is actually really broad, and I would really welcome that we're having this discussion, because it's—

So in that regard, your ask at this stage, perhaps from Welsh Government as well as in-house, would be for that collaborative call for data and information on impact from organisations, because, with respect, 50 organisations isn't that big a cohort, when you think about how many organisations and artists and individual freelancers there are out there. So, with regard to freedom of movement, with regard, for instance, to the Association of British Orchestras and their very deep concerns, and if we bear in mind the very huge impact we have culturally with the Welsh National Opera and BBC National Orchestra of Wales, what else would you add to your list of asks for Welsh Government to be able to collaborate with you, as the experts in that field, at this moment in time?

Resources are needed—human resources are needed, funding is needed to actually do this work, because the capacity is a real issue across the sector. But I'd also say that having the intelligence and the information and being tapped into a Europe-wide—. We were party to an infopoint system that we piloted as part of a European Parliament initiative back in 2013 called—[Inaudible.]—which we found to be at the time very useful. We were the only UK partner in that. It's a shame that we couldn't carry on with that work in many ways. That was very dependent on the funding that was going—

It was funded by the European Union, and it was a pilot programme to look at issues that—at the time, little did we realise how much we would need it five years on. It looked at legalities about taxation, around visa border issues, about touring with people from different third countries—all sorts of practicalities—and there is a network Europe wide for this. My concern, at the moment, is that, when we're dealing with information, we oversimplify it, and I don't mean to demean the need for the funding side of it, but we oversimplify it to just be European funding, which is what we've tended to do over the years anyway. So, the networks and the ability to work in other countries—. I mean, you know, considering the amount of work that's going on in the arts and culture and creative industries, little of it, in many ways, comes through the European funding routes. A lot of it goes on because that's the nature of the sector and of the industry. So, I think being able to provide information that is beyond just funding is really paramount.

10:20

Okay, so in terms—. I will speak briefly to that funding stream that we currently have, and transitionally. It is still and has been £18 million over a period of time, bearing in mind the context of the £50 million budget for the arts council. So, have you identified which of those funding streams is most important and, therefore, how have you articulated that to Welsh Government, in regard to the shared prosperity fund, which, as you know, asks that every single penny is replicated, as has been stated to us previously by the UK Government?

Well, in terms of funding for film in those streams, it's Creative Europe that's had a more significant impact, but, as I put in my evidence, it's not used that much from a production point of view. It tends to be more around the exploitation end—sales and distribution—and that's very much centralised out of London. So, the shared prosperity fund, in terms of future opportunities, I think how that is going to be more tightly made relevant to Wales in terms of what place-making looks like for us, what skills look like for us, I think is absolutely, crucially important.

So, should that be managed by the UK, from your perspective, or should it be managed in Wales as a devolved institution?

I personally would like to see that managed in Wales.

Okay. That seems sensible. Okay, thank you. And should the Welsh or UK Government manage that fund? I've already stated that question, but, in your minds, how do you think that you can influence that decision making moving forward? Because, now, in a sense, everybody is in a very fluid situation, how are you, in your regards, influencing the UK Government outside of what Welsh Government is doing?

I quite often feel like the lone ranger going in. I mean, if you go in with CIC or CIF, there could be 40 people around the table in one meeting, and they'll have 40 meetings in the course of the year, maybe. So, when you have CIC and CIF in very significant—

Sorry. CIC is the Creative Industries Council, so that's working across the creative sector, and CIF is the Creative Industries Federation. It has got an open membership, but it's very much that the majority of them are members from England, or they're UK-wide representatives. With the example of BFI, for example, which is a member of both of those, we know, in a granular way, when it comes to film, they of course have relationships with us, with Chapter et cetera—they don't look on the ground at those issues. And yet, if you've got a representative from the BFI looking at a centralised fund or the industrial strategy and how that rolls out, you couldn't really reasonably expect them to have a detailed understanding of what the needs of Wales would be.

So, in regard to my question, we're talking about collaboration and the importance to Wales economically, culturally and through tourism, et cetera—the mandate of this committee. Has there been any wider collaboration between the creative sectors in Wales in terms of articulation of the importance of these issues to Wales economically, and could there be?

I think it's paramount that there is. I don't think there's probably been as much as you'd like to know that there has been, and that we'd like to either, but I think from the point of view of—. Echoing what Pauline is saying, really, there are a lot of discussions being taken in key fora, but those key fora don't necessarily always operate within the context of devolution, and, in that respect, at the Creative Industries Federation international conference last week, the silence of Brexit was pretty deafening. I would say also, recently, over the summer, I was invited to an FCO, DCMS soft power consultation with the arts and creative industries in London. I was the only person from Wales there. There were two from Scotland. I'm not sure if there was anybody from Northern Ireland. There were about 400 people in the room. The soft power strategy will be launched in January, and there was a row of questions that had been asked of the sector, which goes into so many different areas. The Minister present did explain that culture is devolved and that they respect devolution, but also reminded us that foreign affairs and trade and all the other areas are not devolved, and this was all alongside positioning the GREAT campaign as a way of moving forward to increase the UK's reputation in the world post Brexit. And that comes with a hell of a challenge—excuse my language—for the arts and culture in Wales, along with the other sectors. So, how we define who we are within the wider world, moving forward, is a challenge.

10:25

But in that regard—if I may, finally, Chair, and thank you for your patience—there has never been a more important time for the sector in Wales to have one voice, and, obviously, the Welsh arts council have that overriding mandate. So, should there be that avenue with UK Government to be possibly considered, as well as all the other political and extensive work that's under way with the economic skills group that we have, et cetera, et cetera? Should you be doing, yourselves, more?

We'd love to be able to do more. There's a real resource issue involved in this. At the same time as negotiating and trying to decipher the unknown, like we've all been hearing this morning, we are also delivering on a new cultural memorandum of understanding between Welsh Government and the Chinese ministry of culture, which is a huge task. The international team at the arts council is three people. We cannot do all of that with the resource that we were given five years ago. So, I think there is a resource issue associated with this, but I'd also like to add that the arts council is a part of the sector leads, if you like, and that there are other sector leads that we probably could and should be working more with, and that's part of what the agenda is for the meeting next week, and I think that's something that we should all be, really, looking forward to and working together on. In this whole Brexit discussion, I would also say that there's never been so much discussion of international working in the arts. There never has been. Turn the clock back to five years ago and people were taking it very much for granted, and even positions across the board—UK and Wales—there was very little mention of arts working internationally. All of a sudden there's a real interest, and that's a good thing. The challenge is: how do we take advantage of it so we get the best outcome for the sector?

Okay. It would be interesting to get feedback from your meeting with the Minister in July as well. 

Diolch. Symudwn ymlaen at David Melding. 

Thank you. We'll move on to David Melding. 

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to take forward this theme of the networks. A number of them are attached to programmes that are outside the structural funds, and it may be feasible for us to remain in those. So, which are the key ones in your view?

In terms of the programmes?

Creative Europe has been mentioned; Erasmus+. What ones, because obviously it's going to—

We would say those two for a start, definitely. 

Okay. And how would you handle the fact that we would, over time, lose a significant amount of resource for the sector in joining those networks, because third parties cannot gain financially from being in them? What are the benefits in terms of the network effects, then, I suppose? Can you spell some of those out to us?

Well, I don't think it's just about the financial gain. If you talk to any of the organisations that have been part of Creative Europe projects, they're not in it to gain financially. There is obviously a financial benefit that comes along that can help them with activity, but it is about those connections, it's about peer learning, it's about opening opportunities in other countries. I don't think they would put the financial benefit as the highest priority in doing those programmes. I don't know if Pauline—

Yes, I would second that. About 25 per cent and upwards of the productions we've been involved in have been international co-productions, and the vast majority of those are within the EU. Very few of those—it's either one or two, I'm just remembering off the top of my head—have had any kind of Creative Europe funding. It's not about that; it's about the relationships between the production companies who are actually creating the content together. One of the problems is we're just in a place of enormous uncertainty at the moment. There's a lot of assumptions, misinformation, misunderstanding, and that in itself takes a huge amount of resource.

I was in San Sebastián three weeks ago with colleagues within Cine-Regio, which is a European regional film funding group. I'm on the board of that. There are 44 members of different European funds. And questions such as, 'Will UK films still be counted as European works?'; really, at one level, quite basic questions being asked, but there isn't an understanding, and you've got that, of course, across all 27 member states. And whilst there's uncertainty, all of these different funds, all of the different producers that they trickle down to, will just back off, basically, until they do feel that there's a position of certainty. And whilst, after the referendum, there was actually an uplift—a very significant boom, you might say—in production in the UK, largely because of the drop in sterling, I'm not sure that we'll see that again this time, because of the visa issues that we've got complicating that scenario.

10:30

Hoffwn i, efallai, ategu ynglŷn â nid yn unig y rhaglenni ond y rhwydweithiau rydym ni'n aelodau ohonynt. Mi rydym ni fel cyngor y celfyddydau yn aelod o IETM, sef yr Informal European Theatre Meeting—sydd yn enw eithaf anffodus, oherwydd mae'n rhwydwaith andros o bwysig, efo tua 1,000 o aelodau ledled y bydd, sydd yn edrych ar bob math o agweddau ar weithio o fewn y celfyddydau. Cawsom ni gyfarfod satellite yn Llandudno yn ddiweddar, yng ngogledd Cymru, ac mi ddaeth yna 60 o bobl, o ledled y byd, i'r cyfarfod hwnnw. Wrth gwrs, roedd pobl â diddordeb mawr mewn gwybod beth oedd yn digwydd yng nghyd-destun Brexit, a lle roeddem ni'n sefyll, ond hefyd rwy'n meddwl bod yna awydd i fod yn deall yn ehangach yn rhyngwladol lle mae yna gyfleoedd i ni fod yn gweithio a sut mae rhwydweithiau fel hynny yn gallu ein helpu ni. Ac mi fyddwn i am ddweud mor bwysig ydyn nhw i'n deallusrwydd ni yma yng Nghymru, a'n bod ni'n gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n sicrhau bod ein sector ni'n aelodau o'r ffasiwn rwydweithiau. O fynd yn ôl at beth roeddwn i'n ei ddweud yn y cychwyn ynglŷn â'r ffaith nad oes cyfrifoldeb ar lefel Ewropeaidd i ddiwylliant, mae yna gymaint o weithgareddau yn digwydd o fewn lefel Ewropeaidd a rhyngwladol, ac os nad ydym ni'n aelodau o'r rhwydweithiau yma, yn arbennig ar ôl tynnu allan o'r Undeb Ewropeaidd, rwy'n rhagweld trwbl mawr i'n sector ni. Felly, mae'r rhwydweithiau rydym ni'n aelodau ohonyn nhw—On the Move, Culture Action Europe, i enwi rhai ohonyn nhw—yn andros o bwysig, a bydd pob un maes, a phob un sector, â'u rhwydweithiau eu hunain. Rwy'n meddwl bod hynny'n andros o bwysig.

Hefyd, mi fyddwn i'n ategu, o ran y rhaglenni a'r gost o fod yn rhan o'r rhaglenni, a dweud ein bod ni wedi bod yn galw ers rhai blynyddoedd am gael yr hyn roeddem ni'n ei alw yn rhyw fath o 'ariannu llwyddiant', lle, os ydy cwmnïau o Gymru yn cael llwyddiant i fod yn rhan o raglenni, eu bod nhw'n cael, felly, gefnogaeth i gael arian i wneud hynny. Efallai fod hynny'n rhywbeth i edrych arno fo, o symud ymlaen mewn cyd-destun arian transition.

Ond mi fyddwn i hefyd yn ategu'r pwynt arall rydym ni wedi ei wneud yn ein papur i chi, o ran y model sydd wedi digwydd o dan Horizon 2020 yn Québec, lle mae rhanbarth, os liciwch chi, o fewn gwladwriaeth ehangach wedi gallu prynu i mewn i raglenni—heb fod yn uniongyrchol yn gorfod bod yng Nghanada gyfan. Felly, mae yna fodelau lle y gallwn ni edrych arno fo, ond mae o'n mynd i ddod lawr i'r ariannu a lle rydym ni'n rhoi ein blaenoriaethau. Byddwn i'n hoffi gweld bod yna fwy o drafodaeth yn digwydd, efallai, ar draws y sectorau yng Nghymru, ac efallai dirprwyaeth yn mynd i Frwsel, pan fydd yr amser yn iawn—nid wyf i'n meddwl yn angenrheidiol ei fod o cweit eto, ond mae amser yn symud yn gyflym iawn yng nghyd-destun Brexit, felly efallai yn y flwyddyn newydd.

I'd like to, perhaps, reinforce that by talking about not just the programmes, but the networks that we're part of. We as the arts council are members of the IETM, which is the Informal European Theatre Meeting—which is an unfortunate name, because it's an important network of about 1,000 members across the world, which looks at all sorts of aspects of working within the arts. We had a satellite meeting in Llandudno recently, in north Wales, and 60 people, from across the world, came to that meeting—people with a great interest in what was happening in the context of Brexit and where we stood on that. I also think that there is a desire to understand more widely where, on an international basis, there are opportunities for us to work and how networks such as those can assist us. And I would stress how important they are to our understanding here in Wales, and that we ensure that we as a sector are members of such networks. To go back to what I was saying at the beginning about there not being a responsibility at a European level in relation to culture, there are so many activities on a European international level that, if we're not members of these networks, particularly after Brexit, I foresee great trouble for our sector. So, networks that we're members of—On the Move, Culture Action Europe, just to name a few—are extremely important, and every area, every sector, will have their own networks. So, that is extremely important.

Also, I would mention the cost of being part of these programmes. We have been calling for years for what we would call 'funding success', so that if companies from Wales are successful in becoming part of programmes, they therefore have support and funding to do so. Perhaps that is something to look at in moving forward in a context of transitional funding.

But I would also add that one of the points we've made in our paper is the model that has arisen under Horizon 2020 in Québec, where a region, if you like, within a broader state, has been able to buy into programmes—so, it did not have to be Canada as a whole. So, there are models that we can look at, but it's going to come down to funding, and where we place our priorities. I would like to see more discussion perhaps across the sectors in Wales, and perhaps people going to Brussels, at the right time. I don't necessarily think that now is the right time, but time is moving quickly in the Brexit context, so it could be, perhaps, in the new year.

David, ac mae Jenny eisiau dod mewn yn glou, os yw hynny'n iawn.

David, and Jenny wants to come in quickly, if that's all right.

I just wanted to pick up on what Pauline was saying about the boost in activity because of the drop in the pound. The Minister, in his evidence, says that major cultural industries report they're likely to leave the UK if there is no deal with the EU. And I just wondered whether you could, between you, elaborate on how serious that possibility is—not of Brexit, but of cultural industries moving elsewhere—and just elaborate on why that is exactly. What is it—?

I didn't hear the Minister's evidence. I don't know where he got that view, necessarily, because I haven't seen any evidence that would necessarily suggest that, including large bodies, such as the studios, for example. But I think if you're of that size, and that's where the vast majority of, if you like, inward production has been—services at studio level—then they're quite often international in their nature, or they might look at branch offices elsewhere, much in the way that you've seen happening with banks and major institutions. I would expect them more to look at that than wholesale moving of an operation, because film just isn't that portable at the end of the day; you've got a skills base that takes years to build. So, from that point of view, I think they'll probably be putting more focus on how they develop new markets. That in itself, again, is a long-term gain, and to go to Rhianon's question earlier, that's something that I think Welsh Government could be doing—looking at the international strategies. It's very welcome to have additional offices—I was talking to the so-called head of Canada and head of Germany not so long ago—but to have those strategies not only focused on the point of export, but actually looking at R&D, because it does take years to develop those relationships with would-be new collaborators. Well over 95 per cent of our sector is SMEs, and micro companies very often, and they don't have the capacity just to easily understand a new market and develop those relationships. So, I think those offices on the ground in new territories will be very important. 

10:35

Yes. Can I just start by—? You said that Quebec is a member of the EU transitional programmes. 

No, Horizon 2020—as a third country region, if you like. They'd bought in. 

Okay, because that's an interesting precedent, and one that—. Hence you think we should look at the possibility of Wales signing up, even if the rest of the UK or the UK Government, as such—. So, I think that is interesting evidence. And then, perhaps to follow on the point that was just made by Pauline, we've got a great advantage in the English-speaking world, which has a far bigger creative industry sector than Europe does. Whilst I don't want to be where we are, are we looking enough at other partnerships, and are there other networks that are global or more on an English-speaking basis, because that would take you to north America, Australasia, much of Africa and key parts of Asia as well? What are the alternatives there, because I suspect still that the majority of your funding that's generated—apart from orchestras performing in Europe—from creative goods probably does go to that wider market? 

Indeed, and 'yes' is the answer—we should definitely be looking at the other markets that are open to us, and we are. I've referenced already the work that we've been doing in China. We've been running work with the British Council in India as well, and I think we should be keeping a close eye on where trading relations already exist and where the markets do emerge. But I also do stress the point that these relationships take time and human resourcing. In the Arts Council England's recent research, there was a contribution, usefully, by Manchester International Festival, of course headed up by John McGrath, who used to head up National Theatre Wales. This is one of the points that he makes—that the arts and culture have a huge contribution to make, not just in the Wales sense, but in a UK and global sense, helping to create relationships and substantiate who we are in the world. But we can't do that without the resource to do it, as well as doing the rest of the work that is expected of the sector. The arts plays its role in so many different aspects of society, and rightly so, and that's now being recognised more and more in Wales, which is something that we as an arts council really welcome, from arts and health through to creative learning, and the rest of it.

But to add an international element to all of those programmes—which there is, and there is an interest worldwide in creative learning; there's an interest worldwide in arts and health and ageing, for example, especially in Asia, but doing that work and getting to broker those relationships really puts pressure on us to be looking at our organisations as ambassadors and their capacity to do that work. People can't just start working in China without leading the relationships and brokering those relationships, which does take time and effort and resource. So, we do need to consider wisely how we have targeted resources to develop the places we want to have relationships with beyond next April.

And it's not just, of course, relationships. It's also, 'What are the stories our talent want to tell?', and they're not necessarily going to be stories that will translate to Asia or Australia, and they have, of course, their own logistical challenges just in terms of distance and time zones, et cetera, to navigate in themselves. Canada and the US is clearly an important market for us as well, and I would imagine there'll be more focus there.

10:40

Now there are lots of barriers to trade, and I don't like using 'trade' for the creative arts, but perhaps it conveys the thought. Because, presumably, one of the great advantages of your European networks is, obviously, they're sustained by a single market. So, do you face lots of difficulties in terms of performing and selling into these markets—so, you know, outside, I mean?

Yes, and potentially more so within the European context. We've raised in our response also the issues around mobility. And it's not just mobility of people. So, if you take, for example—. I highly recommend and commend the contributions made by the Arts Portfolio Wales clients who've also responded, such as the National Dance Company Wales, where they really highlight the fact that it's not just the dancers who move—they take goods with them as well; they need to take their sets. So, the issues relating to crossing borders, whether in Europe or beyond, have a lot of costs associated with them—thousands of pounds worth of costs—both in taking out and in bringing in. So, I think our companies have certainly been seeing the European markets as the easier options because they can drive over, without borders, and take equipment with them without having to go through all the different loopholes that they might conceivably have to in the future. But also, in terms of taking things to other countries, we know that, in certain cases, sets are being constructed in China for productions that are made in China—for productions by Welsh companies performing in China—and the like. So, there are a lot of different barriers, but also opportunities, I'd say, which we need to consider.

Ocê. Mae'n rhaid inni symud ymlaen nawr. Diolch, David. Jane Hutt.

Okay. We have to move on now. Thank you, David. Jane Hutt.

Diolch. Yes, I'm interested, Pauline, that you found the meeting on Tuesday night helpful. Several of us were able to attend, as well as Mark Drakeford. And what you—well, one of you, I'm sure—. There were some good contributions about the workforce particularly and we've been picking up on that now. I think this also follows on from all the questions we've been asking this morning about the impact of Brexit on the workforce. But, specifically, just asking you about the UK Government's immigration proposals—on culture, heritage and creative industries, what specific sectors are most exposed and is there anything different in Wales to other UK nations?

Animation and special effects are areas that have relied quite heavily on non-UK talent, so they'll be looking at potential depletion that they need to address. I think, in terms of pipelines, whenever you're looking at new talent, and also the fact that, very often, we're not looking at full-time jobs—a lot of the migration and immigration policy that is being developed at the moment is still focused more on those full-time salaries and they're setting them quite high. I think that's a concern, particularly for Wales. In fact, I'd say they're quite London-centric. If you're looking at even if it's £30,000 as a kind of a barrier—

Yes, exactly. That's a big concern.

I would echo that. I think that £30,000 is a real barrier at the moment, because, quite often, what would be considered as artistic income can be as low as £10,000 or £15,000 in many cases or even lower. Most of our artists—I think there's something in the region of 90 per cent plus who are freelancers. The portfolio that they have to juggle—. And also the importance of higher education in that respect, as well, I think is profound. Having a threshold like that is really quite a barrier, and that's a UK-wide one; that's not necessarily just for Wales. However, we don't know what's coming with the new regulations and so there's been, in other areas, the importance of short-term visas for artists to perform both within the European Union at large, but also for artists visiting the UK—the impact and the possibilities of extending the tier systems that are already in existence for the rest of the world. It's not not doable, but they do come with a lot of bureaucracy and challenges. And, as I mentioned earlier, I think we can't look at the arts as just being movement of people. There is movement of goods and there is movement of services. So, they cover the whole range of immigration proposals that we'll be deciphering in months to come, no doubt.

10:45

There are some interesting points in the evidence of Ffilm Cymru, again, in terms of this impact on not just people—as you say, it's goods as well. You also refer to the DCMS select committee report in terms of the recommendations about travel arrangements. Do you think there should be specific immigration control measures for culture, heritage and creative industries?

You weren't here earlier, but the Minister didn't think that that was something that would be workable. What's your view and response to that? Because he said, at immigration control, it would be very difficult to define different categories of people when they come through those—.

Well, tier 2 and tier 5 are already recognised—creative licences, and also excellence in sport, for that matter. So, it's already something that's workable from that perspective. I think the barriers, though, are that you are introducing visas where a lot of people haven't had to use them yet. As I say, I can only think of a couple—

Yes—literally two examples that we've worked with over the last 13 years where they will have had to have visas. So, it's new. That in itself is a set of skills—just how to navigate that, allow the time frame for it and the additional costs for it. 

It's interesting the conversations we've had with agencies in the States around some of the services that they have available to them, and maybe that's something that you might like to pick up on. But, you know, where will the legal advice come from for companies? Who do they turn to? The idea that they can turn to us—well, to a point, we can provide them information and intelligence services as we may, but we are not lawyers, we are not border agents. So, there is, at the moment, I would suggest, a vacuum in that respect.

Coming back to what you said about particular to Wales, because of the size of companies or the freelance workers, I think that is a barrier in itself because of the time and the costs that any extra administration would incur. I think that is a huge barrier. 

You'll be aware, obviously, of the Welsh Government's policy paper about migration, linking it very closely to employment. How do you think we could relate this to the cultural and creative industries?

I think a type of exemption for cultural workers is going to be pretty important moving forward. As Pauline says, it does exist already, to an extent; how well established it is and how well it's delivered is something else. Now, whether there's—. Heaven forbid, I hope there won't be regional quotas for visas, but that could really be quite challenging. If you look at the recent survey done by  Arts Council England on just the diversity within England, the differences between London and the rest of England, and I probably would say the rest of the UK as well, are really profound when it comes to how many people work in the different sectors from European countries, for example.

But also, exemptions, at the moment—. Really important exemptions within European law include state aid. That's how we fund the arts in the UK; it's because we do have a derogation to enable investment that gets around state-aid issues. So, ensuring that those issues are preserved and looked after in trade negotiations with other countries worldwide, where they do not have those systems, is going to be something that I'm sure will be taken up not just from a Welsh perspective, but these are discussions that will have a profound impact on how we work and manage our sectors.

Indeed, and that idea of a cultural exception is already invoked within—. AV is not part of the free trade agreements that we have to date.

Ocê, yn fyr iawn, Siân Gwenllian.

Okay, briefly, Siân Gwenllian.

Rwy'n gofyn i Ffilm Cymru egluro ychydig bach am yr hyn rydych chi'n galw amdano fo, sef galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i ddarparu cymorth hyblyg o ran masnach ryngwladol a chymorth ymchwil a datblygu cyfnod cynnar. 

I want to ask Ffilm Cymru to explain a little bit more about what you are calling for, namely calling on the Welsh Government to provide flexible support for international trade and early stage R&D support.

Yes. I think this is partly about it would be useful to be able to engage with all of the international offices in quite an efficient way and to explore what is the best way of doing that in an ongoing way, given that Brexit isn't just one event. It's going to be an ongoing process, and I think it will have repercussions for years to come, and we need to continue to evolve and adapt to what those needs and opportunities are. I don't think they'll necessarily all be visible at this time.

That R&D and the nature of that—a lot of R&D support tends to be maybe tech-focused. A lot of the innovation funds that we're seeing UK-wide are at that end, rather than thinking about processes, relationships, research, exploration of new markets in a broader sense. So, I think there are opportunities for Wales to be more innovative and responsive in that area.

And I think also, how we think about how we market Wales. We had mention earlier of the GREAT campaign. We talked about it a little bit last night at the event as well. That's quite problematic for the creative industries. When the Creative Industries Federation did their survey, and there were a lot of respondents to it—something like, I think, 98 per cent of respondents had actually voted to remain. I don't think that's actually a massive surprise in this sector. So, there isn't belief when they rock up in a trade delegation in the GREAT campaign that this is a great thing to be doing, to be leaving. And neither, I have to say, again referring back to the San Sebastian trip and 44 members—they don't necessarily think it's smart either. So, it's a problematic brand, if you like, to sit under, and, actually, what really matters is that the rest of the world, wherever we're going to trade and develop relationships, believes that we are collaborative in our nature, believes that we have stories that are relevant to them and that we want to develop with them and sell to them, and that we are visible in whatever campaigns, in kind of brand Wales, that we might have out in the world and that we're identified as such. As I say, if you look at the UK-wide co-production levels, they are only 6 per cent, but we are at 25 per cent to 30 per cent with the talent that we've got here. So, we have got specificity here, we are much more outward looking than many other places in the UK, and we should be doing more to sell that.

10:50

Rydw i'n meddwl bod hynny'n bwynt pwysig iawn. Mae cydweithio a chydgynyrchiadau ar draws y sector yn ehangach wedi bod yn rhan andros o bwysig o’r celfyddydau yma ac efallai’n rhywbeth sydd yn hawdd i’w danbrisio. Ond dyna le mae’r ymgysylltu a’r perthnasedd a’r datblygiad, a hefyd y gred sydd yna yn y byd tu hwnt yn pwy ydym ni fel cenedl a phwy ydy’n hartistiaid ni a beth sydd gennym ni i’w gynnig.

Rydw i’n meddwl bod Brexit wedi effeithio ar hynny, ac rydw i’n gwybod, er enghraifft, yn yr Alban, mae yna sôn am allu defnyddio’r ffaith bod yr Alban wedi pleidleisio i aros i mewn fel rhan o farchnata pwy ydyn nhw’n ddiwylliannol yn rhyngwladol. Wel, yn anffodus, nid ydy hynny’n rhywbeth efallai y byddem ni yng Nghymru yn gallu ystyried, ond chwaith nid ydw i'n meddwl ei bod hi'n rhywbeth drwg inni fod yn wirioneddol yn deall beth sydd wedi bod yn mynd ymlaen o fewn diwylliant yng Nghymru a sut yr ydym ni’n rhoi lle pwrpasol i’n cymunedau ni o edrych ymlaen o fewn cyd-destun cydweithio rhyngwladol. Rydw i’n meddwl bod yna rywbeth andros o bwerus gyda ni i’w gynnig yng Nghymru ar sut i weithio efo cymunedau mewn llefydd gwahanol. Nid ydy’r rhaglenni Ewropeaidd wedi bod yn berffaith. Nid ydy’r ffaith nad ydy diwylliant yn bodoli ar lefel Ewropeaidd wedi ei gwneud hi'n hawdd inni fedru gweithio mewn fframweithiau Ewropeaidd yn y gorffennol, ond fyddwn i yn sicr ddim eisiau gweld hynny’n cael ei ddatblygu i fod yn rhywbeth anoddach i fod yn cydweithio efo cymunedau yng Nghymru nac yn rhyngwladol tu hwnt i Brexit.

Os oes yna rywbeth i’w ddysgu o hyn, ein bod ni’n cario ein cymunedau efo ni, ein bod ni’n gallu ysbrydoli pobl yng Nghymru i fod yn cysylltu â’r byd, a chael y byd i gysylltu â’n cymunedau ni—ac mae’r cydweithio yma’n hollbwysig yn hyn; nid ydy hi jest am fynd â’n gwaith ni allan a dweud wrth y byd, ‘Mae gennym ni’r dalent yma.’ Wrth gwrs, mae eisiau gwneud hynny, ac wrth gwrs mae eisiau ystyried sut ydym ni’n cyflwyno beth ydy celf a diwylliant Cymru yn rhyngwladol mewn cyd-destun Prydeinig, mewn cyd-destun rhyngwladol. Ond mae hefyd y cydweithio yma a beth mae hyn yn dod yn ôl ag i mewn i’n cymunedau ni, lle mae hyn yn byw o fewn deddfwriaeth cenedlaethau’r dyfodol ac ystod eang o waith ehangach sy’n mynd ymlaen, ac i’r pwyllgor yma hefyd.

I think that's a very important point. Collaboration and joint productions across the sector in a broader sense have been an extremely important part of the arts here, and perhaps something that's easy to undervalue. But, that's where the engagement and the relevance and development, and also the belief in the world beyond in who we are as a nation and who our artists are and what we've got to offer lie.

I think Brexit has affected that, and I know, for example, in Scotland, there's talk about being able to use the fact that Scotland had voted to remain as part of marketing who they are culturally on an international level. Unfortunately, that isn't something that perhaps we in Wales could consider, but neither is it bad for us to understand truly what's been going on in the culture of Wales and how we give a purposeful place for our communities, looking forward within a context of international collaboration. I think there's something extremely powerful being offered in Wales on how to work in communities in different areas. The European programmes haven't been perfect. The fact that culture doesn't exist on a European level hasn't made it easy for us to work within European frameworks in the past, but I certainly wouldn't want to see that being developed to be something more difficult for collaboration with communities in Wales and internationally beyond Brexit.

If there's something to learn from this, it is that we carry our communities with us, that we can inspire people in Wales to engage with the world, and have the world link with our communities, and this collaboration is very important; it's not just taking our work out and telling the world, 'We have this talent.' Of course, there's a need to do that, and of course there is a need to consider how we present what Welsh art and culture is within a British context, and in an international context. But also, there is this collaboration and what this brings back to our communities, where this sits in the future generations legislation and a wide range of broader work that's going on, and for this committee as well.

Ac mae’n debyg bod y pwyslais ar fod y cymorth yma’n hyblyg yn ofnadwy o bwysig, onid ydy? Hynny yw, bod rhaid bod yn agored i symud i ba gyfeiriad bynnag yr ydym ni yn mynd i fynd iddo fo.

And it's likely that the emphasis on the flexibility of the support is extremely important, isn't it? That is, it has to be open to move in whatever direction we are going to take.

Os caf i ddod yn ôl i’r cymorth—es i i ffwrdd ar ychydig bach o tangent yn fan yna, achos rydw i'n meddwl bod y pwynt ar gydweithio yn un pwysig. Ond, o ran y cymorth, rydym ni yng Nghelfyddydau Rhyngwladol Cymru wedi bod â’r profiad o fod yn edrych ar y cyfleoedd sydd i artistiaid yn benodol, ac mewn ffordd eithaf penodol, os liciwch chi. Rydw i'n meddwl mai'r her rŵan ydy edrych arno fo ar draws y celfyddydau a chreadigrwydd yn ehangach. Mae angen inni gael strategaeth ehangach, glir, ac edrych ar beth ydy'r cyfleoedd i'r dyfodol; beth ydy'r ymarferoldeb ar gyfer ein cwmnïau ni; sut ydym ni'n ysbrydoli pobl i fod eisiau gweithio'n rhyngwladol; a'r angen i weithio'n rhyngwladol. Fel rydw i'n ei ddweud, nid yw'n dod yn—. Nid ydych chi jest yn mynd i farchnad. Mae'r gwaith datblygu a deallusrwydd o ran beth ydy'r cyfleoedd a sut mae ymgymryd â hynny yn waith pwysig ofnadwy.

If I can come back to the support —I went off on a bit of a tangent there, because I think the point on collaboration is important. But, in terms of support, we in Wales Arts International have had the experience of looking at the opportunities for artists specifically, and in quite a specific way, if you like. I think the challenge now is to look at it across the arts and creativity at a broader level. I really think that there is a need for us to have a broader strategy, a clear strategy, and to look at the opportunities in the future; what are the practicalities for our companies; how we inspire people to want to work on an international level; and the need to work internationally. As I say, it's not something—. You don't just go to a market. There's development work and the intelligence around the opportunities and how to take that on board, which is extremely important work.

10:55

Mae'n debyg bod y cytundebau masnach rydd, os mai i fanna y byddwn ni'n mynd yn y dyfodol, yn mynd i fod yn her benodol i'r sector, ond yn her hyd yn oed yn fwy i'r sector yng Nghymru, achos ni fydd llais Cymru, o angenrheidrwydd, yn cael ei chlywed yn y broses o negodi'r cytundebau yma.

It appears that the free trade agreements, if that's the direction we pursue in the future, are going to be a specific challenge for the sector, but an even greater challenge for the sector in Wales, because Wales's voice won't necessarily be heard in the process of negotiating those agreements.

Wel, yn aml rydym yn teimlo ein bod ni o leiaf dau le i ffwrdd oddi wrth le mae'r trafodaethau'n digwydd. Felly, rydw i'n meddwl ei bod hi'n anochel ein bod ni yn mynd i fod mewn sefyllfaoedd lle'r ydym yn mynd i fod yn ymateb yn hytrach na chreu. Ond, rydw i'n meddwl hefyd bod hyn yn golygu bod yna bwysigrwydd mawr ar hyn o bryd i'r math yma o drafodaethau sy'n mynd ymlaen, ac i'r pwyllgor yma fod yn archwilio. Hefyd, byddwn i'n mynd yn ôl at un o'r awgrymiadau sydd wedi dod gan Ffilm Cymru—i fod yn gofyn i gyrff Prydeinig i roi ymateb i'r pwyllgor yma ynglŷn â'r gwaith y maen nhw'n ei wneud ar gyfer diwylliant sydd wedi cael ei ddatganoli. Mae'n hawdd iawn i'r cyrff Prydeinig ganolbwyntio ar lefel Brydeinig heb fod yn ymwneud â'r trafodaethau sy'n mynd ymlaen yn y cenhedloedd. Rydw i'n dweud hynny efo parch mawr achos rydw i'n sylweddoli bod pawb efo andros o lot o waith yn mynd ymlaen ar hyn o bryd, ac mae'n anodd ffeindio amser i wneud popeth. Nid ydym ni'n gwybod lot am beth sy'n mynd ymlaen yn yr Alban, ond mae'n rhywbeth rydych yn gorfod ffeindio'ch ffordd drwyddo fo yn hytrach na bod yna ffordd awtomatig o wybod.  

Well, quite often, we feel that we are at least two places away from where the discussions are taking place. So, I think it's inevitable that we're going to be in situations where we're going to be responding rather than creating. But, I also think that this means that there is great importance now to this sort of discussion and for this committee to be examining this. Also, I would go back to one of the suggestions that Ffilm Cymru has made—to be asking British bodies to give evidence to this committee on the work that they are doing for culture, which has been devolved. It's very easy for the British organisations to concentrate on a British level without being involved in the discussions that are ongoing in the nations. I say that with great respect because I realise that people have a lot of work going on at the moment, and it's difficult to find the time to do everything. We don't know much about what's going on in Scotland, and it's something that you have to find your way through, rather than there being an automatic way of knowing.  

Rŷm ni wedi gofyn iddyn nhw droeon i ddod i mewn i roi tystiolaeth, ond rydym ni'n methu â gwneud iddyn nhw wneud hynny.

We have invited them in many times to give evidence, but we can't compel them to do so.

Yn ogystal â'r pwyllgor yma, wrth gwrs, mae yna waith y gallai Llywodraeth Cymru fod yn ei wneud ar hynny hefyd. Nid yw tystiolaeth y Gweinidog y bore yma yn fy argyhoeddi i fod y gwaith yna'n digwydd.

As well as this committee, there is work that the Welsh Government could be doing on that as well. The Minister's evidence this morning doesn't convince me that that work is being done. 

Jest i fynd yn ôl yn glou i'r gweithlu, gan nad oedd y cwestiwn wedi cael ei ofyn, nid wyf yn credu, o ran argaeledd data. Roeddem ni wedi clywed gan y Gweinidog yn gynharach mai ei ddiffiniad fe o gasglu data oedd data Prydeinig. Roeddwn i jest eisiau gofyn i Pauline, o ran—. Yn eich cyfraniad chi, roeddech chi'n dweud nad oes data cynhwysfawr ar symudiadau llafur yn y sector celfyddydau diwylliannol rhwng yr Undeb Ewropeaidd a Chymru, ac y dylid eu casglu fel mater o frys. Beth yw'ch barn chi? Nid wyf eisiau siarad ar ran y Gweinidog, ond roedd ef wedi dweud bod data'n gyfrifoldeb i Lywodraeth San Steffan. Nid oedd yn ymddangos fel yr oedd yn rôl iddo fe. Beth yw eich cysyniad chi o hyn?

Just to go back to the workforce quickly, because I don't think the question was asked about the availability of data. We heard from the Minister earlier that his definition of data gathering was British data. I just wanted to ask Pauline, in terms of your contribution, you said that there is no comprehensive data on the movement of labour in the arts and cultural sector between the EU and Wales, and that this should be gathered as a matter of urgency. What is your view? I don't want to speak on the Minister's behalf, but he said that this data was the responsibility of the Westminster Government. It didn't appear that it was a role for him. How did you perceive this data gathering? 

Well, having not heard the evidence, there might be some granularity to this that I'm missing. In terms of broader workforce data, the skills council—Creative Skillset, which has renamed itself ScreenSkills just recently, a couple of weeks ago—do UK-wide surveys, and they have been changing and adapting their methodology of how they do that over recent months, and, in fact, since they gave evidence previously to the committee. We are one of the advisers on that. We disseminate and encourage Welsh respondents to fill those surveys as they come through, and we directly get opportunities to input where we see areas where there are opportunities or challenges from a skills perspective. So, the skills data and workforce data are gathered at UK-wide level, but that doesn't mean that we can't be more responsive in how the Welsh pitch, if you like, is depicted in that.

What does that mean, sorry, in terms of being more responsive? What is it to be responsive in that—?

Well, I think anybody who is dealing with the sector can be marketing the fact that there's a survey going out, and can you respond to this, for example. We can be encouraging people in Wales to be talking about their businesses and the productions that they're doing, and where they're working, so that it's statistically significant in terms of the responses that they're getting at a UK-wide level. I do think that there would be value in Wales looking themselves—even if they're snapshots from time to time—at where the skills gaps are particularly in Wales. I think that—

11:00

Not that I'm aware of. Because the creative industries department has—. Obviously, they focus on spend in Wales, and they're looking at job opportunities within Wales for servicing productions that come in, as well as indigenous productions, I would have thought it would be in their interests to know where are the gaps, where are the growth opportunities, regardless of what the rest of the UK is doing.

Okay, right. We'll see if we can match that with what the Minister said, and if we have any clarification we need, we'll come back to you. Just to finish, Jenny Rathbone.

The Minister's paper says that the biggest impact is likely to be on digital records, intellectual property and copyright. I wondered why that might be, given the dominance of the English language in both the written and spoken word, and that, in any case, copyright needs to be established worldwide—it simply isn't sufficient to do it across EU level—why that might be a complication in, obviously, a field where there are huge complications. I can't quite understand why this one would be a particular problem. 

Well, there's a lot of change in these areas at the moment in terms of revisions to international copyright. IP is exploited at an international level, and with the digital single market, that's, I would say, quite an ongoing and evolving landscape. There's lots of work that, at EU level, is being done to look at the larger tech-based companies and large platforms like Netflix, Amazon, and multiterritory ways of distributing content—how they engage with that, how they keep up with the evolving model of the industry. And that includes, within the digital single market, looking at quotas for those big companies that are then gaining content and sharing content across Europe.

The UK has been quite vocal and present in those conversations to date, and that will all get drafted over in the Bill, with everything coming over—that's fine. But the digital world isn't going to stop evolving, so the evolution of those laws and how they apply—the longer we're not in the EU, the more potential there is for drift and conflict between what our position is and what the position is in the EU as a significant trading bloc for us, and so it is complex. It's not an area where I would claim to have detailed expertise in. There's a member of our board, Neil Watson, who is one of the advisors to the BFI specifically in this area, and if you would like some detail on that, he would be more than willing, I'm sure, to respond specifically to those questions.

I'm aware that France has long had quotas for non-French language content, to protect its own language. So, I hadn't really picked that up. So, you think it's a possibility that any British productions might be caught up in an attempt to limit the onward march of the Californian giants.

Potentially. We're all kind of in crystal-ball-gazing territory here, but laws evolve, and if we're not part of that single bloc set of laws, then we'll be having to keep quite a close eye on how they're evolving. Are they things we want to mirror? Are they things that we want to differentiate on? I'm not sure what the Minister's point would have been around language in particular. because copyright IP isn't—

I think language is a particular issue, but there are obviously other copyrights that need to be established around visual or oral production. Do you envisage any problems in this regard, or is this the sort of thing that has to be done at a global level these days, in any case?

Os gallech chi fod yn fyr, achos rydym ni'n rhedeg allan o amser.

If you could keep this brief, because we are running out of time.

Wrth gwrs. Ie, wrth gwrs. Fe fyddwn i'n dweud ei bod hi'n broblem sydd yn broblem ryngwladol. Mae hi'n broblem sydd hefyd yn eithaf penodol i wledydd penodol. Rydym ni'n gwybod, yn Tsieina, mae'r agweddau copyright yn rhai anodd ofnadwy i fod yn delio efo nhw ar hyn o bryd. Yn India, pan fydd hy'n dod i hawliau ar gyfer cerddorion, mae yna waith yn cael ei wneud gan PRS for Music er mwyn setio i fyny collecting societies. Nid ydy'r byd efo'r un systemau ag sydd gennym ni, ac nid ydym ni'n gallu disgwyl i'r byd jest weithio yn y ffordd rydym ni'n gweithio. Mae angen inni hefyd fedru gweithio o fewn y marchnadoedd hynny lle mae'r cyfleoedd. Ond, rydw i'n meddwl, yr un peth fyddwn i'n dweud bydd pawb ei angen ydy lot mwy o gefnogaeth gyfreithiol, er mwyn gallu llywio'n ffordd drwy gyfnod tymhestlog a newidiadau mawr o ran, nid yn unig y math o waith rydym ni'n ei wneud, ond hefyd y marchnadoedd rydym ni'n mynd iddyn nhw, a'r ieithoedd gwahanol y byddwn ni'n gorfod delio â nhw. Ac, ydy, mae Saesneg o fantais, ond mae hi hefyd o fantais ein bod ni'n wlad ddwyieithog, mewn cyd-destun rhyngwladol, ond mae yna hefyd ieithoedd eraill sydd yn mynd i fod fwy dominyddol yn sut rydym ni'n gweithio.

Of course. I would say that it is a problem that's an international one. It's also a problem that's quite specific to specific countries. We know, in China, that the copyright aspects are very difficult to be dealing with at the moment. In India, when it comes to rights relating to musicians, work is being done by PRS for Music to set up collecting societies. So, the world doesn't have the same systems as we have, and we can't expect the world just to work the way we work. There is a need for us, also, to be able to work within those markets where there are opportunities. But the one thing that I would say that everybody will need is much more legal support, in order to steer our way through a tempestuous time and great changes, not only in the work that we do, but also in the markets that we go to, and the different languages that we'll have to deal with. And, yes, English is beneficial, but it's also beneficial that we're a bilingual country, in an international context, but there are other languages that are going to be more dominant in the way that we work.

11:05

Jenny, os oes cwestiwn arall gyda chi—

Jenny, a very brief question, please—

These are complex areas, but you don't think that they're likely to be made worse or better as a result of the deal that's done over Brexit.

I think it's challenging to say, to be honest with you. But digital single market is going to have a huge impact, if we're not a member of that, across the board, and not just in the arts and culture—that will be digital as applied in other industries as well.

Okay. If we have extra questions on that, we'll come back to you on that.

Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod atom heddiw. Mae'n siŵr y byddwn ni'n cysylltu â chi ynglŷn â'r hyn sy'n digwydd gyda'r ymchwiliad penodol yma. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

A gawn ni seibiant o ddwy funud, plîs? Diolch.

Thank you very much to you for joining us this morning. I'm sure we will be in contact about what's happening with this specific inquiry. Thank you very much.

Can we have a short, two-minute break, please? Thank you.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:06 ac 11:12.

The meeting adjourned between 11:06 and 11:12.

11:10
4. Ymchwiliad byr i oblygiadau ymadael â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd i feysydd o fewn cylch gwaith y pwyllgor: sesiwn dystiolaeth 3
4. Short inquiry into the implications of Brexit on areas within the committee's remit: Evidence session 3

Diolch, a chroeso i eitem 4 ar yr agenda yma heddiw: ymchwiliad byr i oblygiadau ymadael â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd i feysydd o fewn cylch gwaith y pwyllgor penodol yma, sesiwn dystiolaeth 3. A chroeso i'r Athro Claire Gorrara—gobeithio fy mod i wedi dweud yr enw yn iawn—athro astudiaethau Ffrangeg, Ysgol Ieithoedd Modern, Prifysgol Caerdydd, a Meirion Prys Jones, prif weithredwr y Rhwydwaith i Hyrwyddo Amrywiaeth Ieithyddol.

Thank you, and welcome to item 4 of the agenda here today: a short inquiry into the implications of Brexit on areas within the committee's remit, evidence session 3. And welcome to Professor Claire Gorrara—I hope I've pronounced the name correctly—professor of French studies at the School of Modern Languages, Cardiff University, and Meirion Prys Jones, chief executive of the Network to Promote Linguistic Diversity.

Diolch.

Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am ddod. Beth sydd fel arfer yn digwydd yw ein bod ni'n gofyn cwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol a bydd Aelodau yn mynd yn syth i mewn i gwestiynau yn hynny o beth, a byddaf i'n gofyn y cwestiwn cyntaf, sef: beth ydych chi'n credu yw'r effaith sydd wedi bod ar yr iaith Gymraeg yn sgil y trafodaethau lu sydd wedi digwydd o ran Brexit? A ydych chi'n credu bod yna bwysau gwahanol wedi bod ar yr iaith yn sgil hynny, neu a oes yna gyfleodd i ni?

Roeddwn i ym Mrwsel yr wythnos diwethaf ac roedd Junker wedi dweud nad oedd e eisiau siarad Saesneg oherwydd trafodaethau Brexit. Ond roeddwn i’n meddwl, pe bawn i’n siarad Cymraeg, efallai bod e'n mynd i fod yn fwy croesawgar i mi yno fel rhywun a fyddai'n cael fy niffinio fel rhywun yno o Brydain. Felly, efallai bod yna bethau sy'n negyddol, ond efallai bydd yna bethau cadarnhaol i ni fel cenedl. Beth yw'ch barn chi yn hynny o beth?  

Thank you very much for coming here today. What usually happens is that we ask questions on the basis of different themes and Members will go straight into questions in that regard, and I will ask the first question. What do you think has been the impact on the Welsh language as a result of the discussions regarding Brexit? Do you think different pressures have been on the language as a result of that, or are there opportunities for us?

I was in Brussels last week and Juncker said he didn't want to speak English because of Brexit negotiations. But I thought, if I spoke Welsh, I might be more welcome there, as somebody who is defined as somebody who was there from Britain. So, perhaps there are things that are negative, but there may be positive aspects for us as a nation as well. What are your views on that?

A ydych chi am i mi ddechrau, i ateb y cwestiwn yna?

Would you like me to start, to answer that question?

Efallai bod hi'n well i mi ddechrau drwy esbonio fy mod i bellach wedi gadael y swydd o fod yn brif weithredwr y rhwydwaith sy'n hyrwyddo amrywiaeth ieithyddol yn Ewrop. Hynny yw, rhwydwaith yw hi ar gyfer 14 o lywodraethau sy'n hyrwyddo ieithoedd lleiafrifol ar lefel Ewropeaidd, ynghyd â rhai aelodau prifysgolion a mudiadau eraill. Felly, rhwydwaith yw e, a sefydlwyd yng Nghymru yn 2006 ac sydd wedi bod yn weithredol ers hynny ar y lefel Ewropeaidd yn lobïo ym Mrwsel ac yn rhannu arferion da. Felly, dyna yw'r cefndir rydw i'n dod i'r cyfarfod yma. A hefyd, wrth gwrs, roeddwn i, ynghynt, yn brif weithredwr Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg, felly mae'r dimensiwn Cymraeg yn dod i mewn i hynny hefyd. 

O ran y cyfleoedd, rydw i'n credu, o edrych yn ôl, efallai, i ddechrau, mai ychydig bach yn hwyrfrydig mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi bod i hyrwyddo'r cyfleoedd o safbwynt y Gymraeg ar lefel Ewropeaidd, neu'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg, er mae'n rhaid nodi bod yna lobïo wedi bod er mwyn cael y Gymraeg ar basbort ac, wrth gwrs, erbyn hyn, er nad yw’r iaith Gymraeg yn iaith swyddogol yn Ewrop, mae’n rhannol swyddogol. Felly, mae yna bosibilrwydd yn y cyd-destun yna ar y lefel Ewropeaidd o ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg.

Felly, mae yna elfennau wedi bod, ond yn gyffredinol, ychydig yn hwyrfrydig, ychydig o ddiffyg diddordeb mewn hyrwyddo’r Gymraeg sydd wedi bod. Er enghraifft, gyda’r rhwydwaith sefydlais i yn 2006, sydd wedi esblygu erbyn hyn i fod yn cynnwys 14 o lywodraethau, gyda diddymu Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg yn 2011, fe benderfynodd Llywodraeth Cymru i beidio â chynnal secretariat y rhwydwaith hwnnw. Felly, fe gyflawnwyd Brexit ar gyfer y rhwydwaith hwnnw yn ôl yn 2011, gan wthio’r rhwydwaith. Roedd yn drueni, mewn ffordd, oherwydd roedd y rhwydwaith yn weithredol o Gaerdydd—yr unig rwydwaith a oedd â’i ganolbwynt yng Nghymru ar y lefel Ewropeaidd, ac fe symudon ni swyddfeydd y rhwydwaith i Frwsel. Felly, nid oes hanes cystal â hynny, ond—

Perhaps I should start by explaining that I've left the post of being the chief executive of the network that promotes linguistic diversity in Europe. It's a network for 14 governments that promotes minority languages on a European level, along with some university members and other organisations. So, it's a network that was established in Wales in 2006 and it has been operational since then on the European level, lobbying in Brussels and sharing good practice. So, that's the background that I bring to this meeting. And, of course, I was previously chief executive of the Welsh Language Board, so the Welsh dimension comes into that as well.

In terms of the opportunities, I do believe, looking back, initially, that the Welsh Government has, perhaps, delayed the opportunities to promote the Welsh language on a European level, or the use of the Welsh language, although there has been lobbying to ensure that the Welsh language is on the passport and, of course, even though the Welsh language isn't an official language, it is a co-official language in Europe. So, there is a possibility in that context on the European level of using the Welsh language.

So, there have been elements, but, in general, it has been a slightly delayed response, a lack of interest in promoting the Welsh language. For example, with the network that I established in 2006 that has now evolved to include 14 governments, as I said, with the abolition of the Welsh Language Board in 2011, the Welsh Government decided not to maintain the secretariat of that network. So, Brexit for that network happened in 2011. It was a shame, in a way, because the network operated from Cardiff—it was the only network that was focused on Wales on a European level, and we moved our offices to Brussels. So, there isn't a very good history in this regard—

11:15

A oedd yna resymeg dros hynny? A oedd y rhesymeg yn fwy na—? Yn amlwg, nid oedd Brexit ar yr agenda bryd hynny. Beth oedd y rhesymeg dros wneud hynny?

And the reason for that? Obviously, Brexit wasn't on the agenda then. What was the rationale behind that?

Yr unig beth a gawsom ni oedd llythyr yn dweud nad oedden nhw bellach, yn Rhagfyr 2011, yn dymuno parhau i gynnig y gefnogaeth honno wrth i Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg ddod i ben, gan mai’r bwrdd a oedd wedi cynnal y secretariat cyn hynny. Ac felly, fe roddwyd tri mis i symud y rhwydwaith allan, a oedd yn gryn dipyn o gamp, mewn gwirionedd, i wneud hynny dros gyfnod byr. Felly, nid oes hanes cystal â hynny. Ond mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn dal yn aelod o’r rhwydwaith ac yn parhau â’r gwaith hwnnw.

O edrych ar beth sydd yna o safbwynt y Gymraeg yn y dyfodol, mi fyddwn i efallai yn poeni mwy ynglŷn â beth yw sefyllfa’r iaith Gymraeg ar lefel y Deyrnas Gyfunol. Hynny yw, o weld natur agweddau pobl at amrywiaeth, ac amrywiaeth ieithyddol ar lefel ieithyddol, nid ydy hynny’n bositif yn y Deyrnas Gyfunol ar hyn o bryd, byddwn i’n tybio. A hefyd, nid oes ymwybyddiaeth yn y Deyrnas Gyfunol fod yna gymaint o ieithoedd wedi deillio o Brydain ei hun. Hynny yw, mae yna gred mai gwlad uniaith yw Prydain ar y cyfan, ac rŷch chi’n gweld yr agwedd sydd ddim yn gadarnhaol gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol, er enghraifft yng nghyd-destun y cyllid maen nhw wedi bod yn ei roi i’r iaith Gernyweg. Maen nhw newydd dorri hynny i lawr i ddim, er eu bod nhw wedi adfer hynny dros dro. Nid oes yna ddim llawer o gefnogaeth. Felly, nid ydy’r agweddau ar lefel y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn hynod o bositif, er efallai eu bod yn bositif mewn llywodraethau rhanbarthol.

Well, the only thing that we received was a letter saying that they no longer—I think it was in December 2011—wished to provide that support as the Welsh Language Board was wound up, because it was the board that had provided the secretariat before that. So, we had three months to move out, which was quite an achievement, really, in such a short period of time. So, we don't have that good a history in this regard. But the Welsh Government is still a member of the network and it continues with that work.

Looking at what is happening in terms of the Welsh language in the future, I would perhaps be more concerned about the situation of the Welsh language on the United Kingdom level. That is, in seeing the nature of people's attitudes towards diversity, and linguistic diversity on a linguistic level, that isn't positive in the United Kingdom at the moment, I would surmise. And there is no awareness in the United Kingdom that there are so many languages that have emerged and emanated from Britain itself. That is, there is this belief that Britain is a monolingual place on the whole, and you don't see that positive attitude from the United Kingdom Government, for example, in the context of the funding that they've provided to the Cornish language. They've cut that down to zero, even though there had been a temporary reprieve for that. There isn't much support. So, the attitude on the United Kingdom level isn't particularly positive, even though it might be positive in regional governments.

Yes, I think I would completely concur with that position, in the sense that, obviously, I sit here as a professor of French and as somebody who leads on modern language activism in Wales and the UK, but I think there is a level of what we call 'linguaphobia' that has been heightened by Brexit—a perception that if you're not an English speaker and you speak other languages, that somehow you're not a fully fledged part of the community. And certainly, we've seen that in anecdotes around people being abused for speaking other languages in the street, particularly on public transport and elsewhere.

But I also agree with the view that, actually, it's very, very important at this juncture that we think about the UK as a multilingual and multicultural society, that we think about community languages, and also those that we teach in universities and in schools. But, actually, Welsh and modern languages are also all going to be impacted by a negative view of other cultures.

Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Siân Gwenllian.  

Okay. Thank you very much. Siân Gwenllian.

Ie, jest i bigo i fyny ar y pwynt olaf yna, a ydych chi felly yn dweud, yn yr hinsawdd sydd ohoni, fod y casineb tuag at ieithoedd lleiafrifol a grwpiau lleiafrifol wedi effeithio ar bobl sy’n siarad Cymraeg hefyd?

Yes, just to pick up on a final point, really, are you therefore saying that, in the current climate, the hostility towards minority languages and minority groups has had an effect on Welsh speakers as well?

Rwy'n credu efallai beth mae hynny yn ei weld—. Mae’n cael ei adlewyrchu mewn ffordd bod agweddau gwrth-Gymraeg efallai’n fwy huawdl ar hyn o bryd. Hynny yw, ei bod yn fwy derbyniol, efallai, i fod yn cyfleu agwedd negyddol tuag at yr iaith Gymraeg, ond at ieithoedd neu at amrywiaeth yn gyffredinol. Mae hynny’n eithaf amlwg ar y cyfryngau cymdeithasol.

Nid wyf yn siŵr bod hynny’n cael ei adlewyrchu yng Nghymru fel y cyfryw gymaint â hynny. Rydym ni yn gweld o’r adroddiad diweddar ar ystadegau ynglŷn â beth yw agweddau pobl at yr iaith Gymraeg fod yna agwedd bositif—rhywbeth fel 68 y cant o’r boblogaeth eisiau gwneud rhagor o safbwynt y Gymraeg. Felly, rwy’n credu bod yr haen fechan swnllyd yn gallu gwneud synau negyddol, ond rwy’n credu bod yna agweddau cadarnhaol iawn tuag at y Gymraeg, ac rydw i’n meddwl efallai bod gwleidyddion a Llywodraeth efallai yn camystyried faint o gefnogaeth sydd yna i’r iaith Gymraeg, mewn gwirionedd. Hynny yw, dyna'r agweddau rydw i’n eu cael ar lawr gwlad, lle efallai mae yna ofn weithiau i symud ymlaen yn rhy bell o safbwynt y Gymraeg. Felly, mewn gwirionedd, mae yna gefnogaeth helaeth iawn.

I believe that what one sees—. It is reflected, in a way, that anti-Welsh language attitudes are more prominent at the moment, and that it's perhaps more acceptable to be putting forward that negative attitude towards the Welsh language, and towards diversity in general. That is clear on social media.

I'm not entirely sure whether that's reflected in Wales as such, as it were. We do see from the recent report, from the statistics on people's attitudes towards the Welsh language, that there is a positive attitude—something like 68 per cent of people want to see more being done for the Welsh language. So, I think that a very small and vocal minority can make those negative noises off, but I think that there are very positive attitudes towards the Welsh language, and I think that politicians and Government perhaps are misperceiving how much support there is for the Welsh language. That is, that’s the sense that I get on the ground, where perhaps there’s a fear to move forward too far with regard to the Welsh language. So, there is vast support I think.

11:20

Iawn. Gan symud tuag at agweddau ariannol, wrth gwrs mae’r Gymraeg yn elwa ar hyn o bryd ar arian uniongyrchol o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd ond hefyd ar arian sydd yn dod yn anuniongyrchol, a byddwn ni’n trafod hwnnw mewn ychydig. Rydw i’n digwydd credu bod yr arian anuniongyrchol yna yn bwysig iawn, ac efallai nad oes dealltwriaeth lawn ynglŷn ag oblygiadau’r ffaith bod, ar hyn o bryd, y gorllewin yn derbyn arian ychwanegol drwy Ewrop, oherwydd ei bod hi’n ardal dlawd, ac yn y fan honno mae’r cymunedau sydd efo siaradwyr Cymraeg o ddydd i ddydd, a bod sgileffeithiau sylweddol iawn o golli’r arian anuniongyrchol yna, o ran y CAP ac yn y blaen. Ond fe wnawn ni drafod hynny mewn ychydig, ond rydw i’n meddwl bod angen cloriannu’r arian uniongyrchol a’r arian anuniongyrchol a rhoi’r un fath o bwyslais arnyn nhw.

O ran yr arian uniongyrchol, beth fydd yr effaith? Hynny yw, mae yna lot o gronfeydd ar hyn o bryd—a fydd yna gyllid cyfatebol yn gallu dod o’r Deyrnas Unedig? A oes yna botiau o bres yn rhywle arall?

Right. Moving on to funding aspects, of course the Welsh language benefits at the moment from direct funding from the EU but also from funding that comes indirectly, and we’ll discuss that in a little while. I happen to believe that the indirect funding is very important, and perhaps there is not a full understanding regarding the implications of the fact that currently the west receives additional funding through Europe, because it is poor area, and that's where the communities are that have the day-to-day Welsh speakers, and there are significant side effects to that in losing that funding, in terms of the common agricultural policy and so forth. But we’ll discuss that in a little while, but I think we need to look at the direct and indirect funding and place the same sort of emphasis on both.

In terms of the direct funding, what will the impact be? There are many funds at the moment—will there be match funding from the UK? Are there pots of money elsewhere?

Mewn gwirionedd, ychydig o arian uniongyrchol sy’n dod ar gyfer y Gymraeg o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Mae iaith ar lefel Undeb Ewropeaidd yn fater sensitif iawn sy’n cael ei ddatganoli i’r gwledydd unigol. Nid ydy’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, yn gyffredinol, eisiau mynd i’r afael â materion ieithyddol, ac yn llai fyth ag ieithoedd lleiafrifol, neu ychydig iawn, iawn, iawn. Fe lwyddais i, dros y ddegawd ddiwethaf, ar gyfer y rhwydwaith, i gael €2 filiwn ar gyfer ieithoedd lleiafrifol. Mae’r Gymraeg yn rhan o’r pot yna ond ychydig iawn, iawn o gefnogaeth sydd yna. Mewn gwirionedd, mae Llywodraeth Cymru a Llywodraethau rhanbarthol ar draws Ewrop yn rhoi llawer iawn mwy o gefnogaeth ariannol nag y mae’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Hynny yw, mae’n rhaid cofio mai clwb o 28 o wladwriaethau yw’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, ac nid oes yr un o’r gwladwriaethau yna, ar y cyfan, yn awyddus i gefnogi ieithoedd lleiafrifol ar lefel Ewropeaidd. Dyna yw’r gwir plaen. Mae’n rhaid i fi ddweud, rydw i wedi bwrw fy mhen am flynyddoedd yn erbyn y wal honno, am ddegawd a mwy—nid ydyn nhw. Ac a dweud y gwir, mae eu hagweddau nhw tuag at ieithoedd lleiafrifol yn gynyddol waethygu, ac rydw i’n credu bod hynny hefyd yn wir yng nghyd-destun ieithoedd hefyd. Hynny yw, mae’r gwariant a’r gefnogaeth ar lefel Ewropeaidd wedi lleihau’n arswydus mewn gwirionedd. Os edrychwch chi ar y gwariant sydd yna, mae canran uchel iawn—90 y cant—o’r gwariant ar ieithoedd yn mynd i chwe iaith yn unig yn Ewrop. Felly, nid yw—

Well, truth be told, very little direct funding comes from the European Union. Language on the EU level is a very sensitive issue that is devolved to the individual nations. The European Union, in general, doesn’t want to get to grips with linguistic issues, especially with regard to minority languages, or very, very, very little. I succeeded, over the past 10 years, to receive €2 million for minority languages. The Welsh language is part of that pot, but it is very little support that has been. The Welsh Government and regional Governments across Europe do give a great deal more support financially than the European Union does. We have to remember that it’s a club of 28 states—that’s what the European Union is—and none of those states, on the whole, are eager to support minority languages on a European level. That’s the plain truth. I have to say that I’ve been hitting my head against that brick wall for a decade or more about this—they don't. And truth be told, their attitudes towards minority languages are increasingly deteriorating, and I think that’s also true with regard to languages in general as well. That is, the expenditure and support on a European level has decreased to a frightening extent. If you look at the expenditure that there is, then a high percentage—90 per cent—of the expenditure on languages goes on six languages alone in Europe. Therefore—

So, myth ydy o bod yna ryw arian uniongyrchol yn dod tuag at yr iaith Gymraeg o Ewrop?

So, it’s a myth that there’s some sort of direct funding coming to the Welsh language from Europe?

Myth llwyr, ac rydw i’n cael pobl yn gofyn i fi drwy’r amser, ‘A allwn ni gael arian cyfatebol? Ble mae’r ffynonellau?’ Nid oes yna yw’r gwir plaen.

Yes, it’s a myth, and I have people asking me all the time, 'Can we have equivalent funding? Where are the sources?' There is none, that’s the plain truth.

Ocê, ond un rhaglen ydy Erasmus+. Mae’n rhaid cydnabod bod honno’n bodoli a bod y Gymraeg wedi elwa yn sgil honno.

Okay, but Erasmus+ is one programme. We have to acknowledge that that exists and that the Welsh language has benefited as a result of that.

Do, rywfaint. Hynny yw, mae Erasmus, wrth gwrs, yn gasgliad erbyn hyn o nifer o raglenni gwahanol, ac mae yna rywfaint o arian wedi dod yn y gorffennol o’r cyfeiriad yna. Ond bach mewn gwirionedd yw’r gefnogaeth, oherwydd nid ydy’r Gymraeg yn codi’n uchel, fel ieithoedd lleiafrifol eraill, ar yr agenda Ewropeaidd, boed hynny’n arian o Frwsel, sydd yn rhyw 10 y cant o’r pot, nac ychwaith yr arian sy’n cael ei ddatganoli i’r gwledydd eu hunain. Ychydig o arian sy’n dod allan o’r cyrff ariannu yng Nghymru tuag at yr iaith Gymraeg. Mae iaith yn fater sensitif iawn nad yw pobl eisiau ei ariannu.

Yes, to some extent. Erasmus, of course, is a collection of a number of different programmes, and some funding has come in the past from that direction. But the support is very scant, truth be told, because Welsh, as with other minority languages, isn’t very high on the agenda on a European level, be that funding from Brussels, which is around 10 per cent of the pot, or with regard to the funding that’s devolved to the nations themselves. It’s very little funding that comes out of the funding bodies in Wales towards the Welsh language. Language is a very sensitive issue that people don’t want to fund.

Sori, Siân, jest am funud—mae Rhianon eisiau gofyn cwestiwn clou.

Sorry, Siân, just a minute—Rhianon wants to ask a quick question.

Thank you. Diolch, Chair. With regard, then, to the wider context of what you’ve laid out in front of us today, you mentioned that there are myths surrounding that, and that’s why you’re here. So, my perspective has always been that with regard to European structural funding or regional funding, and with regard to the common agricultural policy, there has always been in Welsh-speaking areas quite a lot of European funding that is centred in those areas, generally speaking. So, are you saying that just because you don't feel there's a direct European funding pot for the Welsh language that there has been no support around the Welsh language indigenous growth because of the funding that we've had from Europe?

11:25

Can I just say—?

Cyn i chi ddweud unrhyw beth, plis peidiwch ateb y stwff ar CAP achos mae hwnnw'n dod ymlaen yn hwyrach gan rywun arall. Ocê, diolch. 

Before you say anything, please don't answer things around CAP. That will come on later from somebody else. Okay, thank you.

Dyna'r union bwynt. Hynny yw, mae yna arian uniongyrchol ac mae yna arian anuniongyrchol, a thra bod gyda ni, ar hyn o bryd, yr arian uniongyrchol yna—. A hwnnw ydy'r pwynt rydych chi'n ei wneud, bod yr arian uniongyrchol yna'n bitw iawn, a dweud y gwir, ac efallai bod mater yr arian anuniongyrchol, y CAP ac yn y blaen, yn fater gwahanol, ac mae Caroline yn mynd i fynd ar ôl hwnnw, rydw i'n meddwl. 

But that's the exact point. That is, there is direct funding and indirect funding, and we're discussing at the moment the indirect funding. That is the point that you're making, that the direct funding is very small, really, and that perhaps the matter of the indirect funding, the CAP and so on, is a different matter, and Caroline is going to go after that, I think.

Ie. So, fe wnawn ni ddelio gyda hynny ar ôl.

Yes. So, we'll deal with that later.

With regard to my comment, I just want clarification so that there's no confusion. I mean, what's your view on that? I'm talking about both. 

O ran arian uniongyrchol, nid oes yna nemor ddim. O ran arian anuniongyrchol, oes, mae yna arian anuniongyrchol sydd yn cefnogi sefyllfaoedd lle mae'r iaith Gymraeg yn cael ei defnyddio, ond sydd yn fater ychydig yn wahanol. 

In terms of direct funding, there's almost none. In terms of indirect funding, yes, there is indirect funding that does support situations where the Welsh language is used, but that's a slightly different situation.

A gaf i jest gael barn Claire ar hyn i gyd? Y mater yma mai ychydig iawn o arian sydd yn dod o Ewrop ar gyfer gweithgareddau uniongyrchol yn ymwneud â'r Gymraeg, ac felly nid oes angen inni boeni achos mae o mor bitw beth bynnag, bydd gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd ddim yn cael yr effaith mawr yma ar y Gymraeg o ran yr arian uniongyrchol. 

Can I just get Claire's view on all of this? This issue that very little funding comes from Europe for direct activities relating to the Welsh language, and therefore there is no need for us to worry because it is so small anyway, leaving the EU won't have this great impact on the Welsh language in terms of the direct funding.

Well, I always see it as a language ecosystem. Languages don't operate in silos. I think we've got to be very careful to say, 'This happens to Welsh; this happens to French; this happens to German.' I think we've got to be aware that all languages are sensitively connected in a little ecosystem, and if you start to undermine one part of that ecosystem, whole other parts of the ecosystem start to then deteriorate. So, for me, they're all interconnected, and therefore if there is a reducing or lesser status for Welsh or it's less a visibility, that will impact on general Welsh people's perceptions of, 'Why bother studying languages?', and then that's the big issue, because—and hopefully we'll come on to this—it's attitudes, and very negative attitudes are being reinforced post Brexit, and Welsh is part of a language ecosystem that is incredibly important to Wales, but it's part of a much bigger picture. So, they are all related and interconnected. 

Ac a fuasai chi'n dadlau bod Erasmus+ yn gynllun pwysig? 

And would you argue that Erasmus+ is an important scheme?

Absolutely. Absolutely pivotal to the well-being—the linguistic and also, I think, the intercultural well-being of Wales. So, Erasmus+ doesn't just fund undergraduate students doing languages to go abroad; it funds disability groups to engage with other groupings across other EU countries, it funds teachers to go across and improve their linguistic awareness and understand other education systems, it's extraordinarily important to the cultural well-being of almost all sectors that have a concern about civic engagement and civil partnership. 

Okay. Caroline, you'll be pleased to know it's come to you. [Laughter.]

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Mine is on—I'll concentrate more, then, on the indirect funding, but I'd like to say that sustainability of the Welsh language is vitally important, and some projects have a clear and direct impact on matters relating to the Welsh language, but other EU funding streams have an indirect impact on our language. So, the CAP, agriculture, hospitality and food services have high numbers of Welsh speakers, and these areas of employment support the rural areas of Wales, and their level of funding post Brexit will have an impact on these sectors, which are both critical to the sustainability of the Welsh language and also of the Welsh economy. So, currently, structural funds are designed to address inequalities of wealth, but the UK shared prosperity fund introduced by the UK Government is, at present, unclear as to how this will work and how funds will be distributed. So, how do you envisage it working, taking into account the uniqueness of Wales? We must ensure that funding in this context at least matches what we have now, but, better still, exceeds it. So, could you enlighten me on these questions, please? 

Fe geisiaf i fy ngorau. 

I will try my best.

Mae e yn gwestiwn mawr. [Chwerthin.] Rydw i'n credu, efallai, ei bod hi'n werth nodi i ddechrau, o safbwynt y Gymraeg, y Gymraeg ydy un o ieithoedd lleiafrifol mwyaf bywiog Ewrop—mwyaf creadigol. Buaswn i'n dweud, mae gyda chi Gatalaneg â mwy o niferoedd, mae gyda chi'r Basgiaid sydd â mwy o arian, ond mae gyda chi'r Cymry sydd â mwy o greadigrwydd ac o ddyfeisgarwch. Dyna ydy nodwedd y Cymry Cymraeg. Ond pan ydych chi'n edrych, wedyn, ble maen nhw—ac rŷm ni'n sôn am greu 1 filiwn o siaradwyr, felly mae'n bwysig edrych lle mae ein Cymry Cymraeg ni ar hyn o bryd, y bobl hynny sy'n siarad Cymraeg bob dydd—maen nhw'n tueddi i fod mewn dwy ardal yn benodol, sef yr ardal ôl-ddiwydiannol, Cwm Gwendraeth, Blaenau Ffestiniog, lle mae yna reswm wedi bod yn y gorffennol, oherwydd gwaith, i bobl symud i'r ardaloedd hynny, hyd yn oed o'r tu allan i Gymru, a'u bod nhw'n dod yn siaradwyr Cymraeg beth bynnag. Felly, mae'r cymunedau yna sydd bellach wedi dirywio'n sylweddol—mae'r cymunedau yna angen cefnogaeth, ac maen nhw, wrth gwrs, yn cael, ac wedi cael cefnogaeth drwy'r cronfeydd strwythurol. Felly, dyna un o'r ardaloedd. Ac wedyn yr ardal arall, wrth gwrs, yw ardal amaethyddiaeth. Hynny yw, mae yna ganran uchel iawn o siaradwyr Cymraeg yn gweithio yn y meysydd hynny. Mae'r fferm deuluol Gymraeg yn rhyw fath o graidd i gymunedau, ac, wrth gwrs, allan o fanna mae'r holl wasanaethau sydd yn gwasanaethu mewn ardaloedd gwledig, yr holl gymdeithasau sy'n ffynnu yn yr ardaloedd hynny—maen nhw'n ddibynnol ar faes amaeth.

Felly, o edrych ymlaen, mae rhywun yn gofyn y cwestiwn: sut mae'r cymunedau yna yn mynd i gael eu cynnal? Ac rydw i'n credu, wrth ichi edrych ar beth sy'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd, mae gyda chi'r ddogfen 'Brexit a'n Tir' sy'n gosod allan cynigion Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer hynny, ac mae yna nifer o gwestiynau, efallai, yn codi allan o'r ddogfen honno, lle mae yna edrych, efallai, ar ffordd rywfaint yn wahanol i'r dehongliad sydd gan Gymry Cymraeg o'r ardaloedd amaethyddol hyn. Pan ydych chi'n ystyried cymaint o bobl yng ngorllewin, gogledd a chanolbarth Cymru sy'n siarad Cymraeg yn y diwydiant hwn, mae'r brif egwyddor—. Mae yna bum prif egwyddor yn y ddogfen hon, ac nid ydy iaith yn un ohonyn nhw. Mae yna sôn yn y ddogfen am elfennau ieithyddol, ac maen nhw'n nodi bod y cymdeithasau yma â chanran uchel o siaradwyr Cymraeg, ond nid ydy hi'n egwyddor. Hynny yw, mae yna egwyddorion yma yn ymwneud â chadwraeth yn gryf, ac, eto, nid ydy cadwraeth iaith yn un ohonyn nhw. Felly, mae yna gwestiwn yn codi, wrth inni fynd o sefyllfa lle mae yna ddiddordeb Ewropeaidd mewn cadw a chynnal ffermydd bach, i bob pwrpas—Ffrainc yn enghraifft glasurol o hynny—beth fydd yn digwydd mewn sefyllfa, efallai, lle mae dylanwad y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn gwthio i gyfeiriad ffermydd mwy o faint, a mwy effeithiol, mae'n debyg? Ond, wrth gwrs, nid ydy o'n dilyn—hynny yw, mae yna ddigon o enghreifftiau yng Nghymru o ffermydd bach sy'n hynod effeithiol hefyd.

Felly, mae unrhyw newid yn y cyfeiriad yna—fe allai danseilio nid yn unig, efallai, amaethyddiaeth, ond fe allai danseilio cymunedau, cymdeithas, teuluoedd—ecosystem iaith sydd wedi datblygu dros y canrifoedd. Hynny yw, gallai hynny gael ei danseilio gan hyn. Ac os ydym ni â'r nod yma o greu 1 filiwn o siaradwyr, nid oes pwynt inni ar yr un pryd danseilio'r base o siaradwyr sydd gyda ni'n barod, achos nid oes dim pwynt i bobl ddysgu siarad iaith nad ydy pobl yn ei defnyddio. Nid oes dim pwynt—hynny yw, mae'n wastraff ymdrech. Felly, rydw i'n credu bod eisiau gofalu fan hyn nad oes un polisi yn milwriaethu yn erbyn un arall. 

It is a big question, indeed. [Laughter.] I think it's worth noting, perhaps, to start, from the point of view of the Welsh language, that the Welsh language is one of the liveliest and most vibrant and creative minority languages in Europe. You have Catalan that has the greatest numbers, you have the Basque language that has more money, but you have the Welsh language that has more creativity and innovation associated with it. That's the characteristic of Welsh-speaking Welsh people. But when you look, then, at where they are—and we're talking about creating 1 million Welsh speakers, so it's important to look at where our Welsh speakers are at present, those people who speak Welsh on a daily basis—they tend to be in two areas, namely the post-industrial area, the Gwendraeth valley, Blaenau Ffestiniog, where there has been a reason in the past, because of employment, for people to move to those areas, even from the outside of Wales, and they become Welsh speakers anyway. So, those communities that have now declined significantly—those communities do require support, and they have, of course, received support through the structural funds. So, that's one of the areas. The other area, of course, is the rural agricultural area. There's a high percentage of Welsh speakers working in those fields. The Welsh family farm is at the heart of communities, and, of course, it's out of those that all of the services that provide services in rural areas, the organisations, the societies that flourish in those areas—they are dependent on agriculture.

So, looking forward, one asks the question: how will those communities be supported? And I think, if you look at what's happening at present, you have the 'Brexit and our land' document that sets out the Welsh Government proposals for that, and there are a number of questions, perhaps, emanating from this particular document, where there is perhaps a slightly different view to the interpretation of Welsh speakers from these areas. When you consider how many people in west Wales, north Wales and mid Wales speak Welsh in this industry, the main principle—. There are five main principles in this document, and language isn't one of them. Now, there's mention made in the document of the linguistic element, and it notes that these communities have a high percentage of Welsh speakers, but it isn't a principle. There are principles with regard to conservation—that's a very strong thread—and yet language conservation isn't one of them. So, a question does arise, as we move from a situation where there is European interest in maintaining small farms—France is a classical example of that—what will happen in a situation where the influence of the United Kingdom does push towards larger farms, more efficient farms, or so it seems? But, of course, that doesn't follow—that is, there are plenty of examples in Wales of small farms that are very efficient as well.

So, any change in that direction could actually undermine not only agriculture, but it could also undermine communities, society and families—a language ecosystem that has developed over the centuries. That could be undermined by this. And if we have this aim of creating 1 million Welsh speakers, then there's no point in us at the same time undermining the base of speakers that we have already, because there's no point for people to learn how to speak Welsh if people don't then use it. There's no point—it's a waste of effort. So, I think we need to be careful here that one policy doesn't militate against another.

11:30

Claire, oes rhywbeth rwyt ti eisiau dweud am hyn?

Claire, do you have something that you want to say about this?

I'm not as aware of the situation of Welsh in different parts of Wales, so I couldn't comment on that. 

With regard to your comments, then, about minority—not minority languages, but foreign languages in Britain, you've expressed a concern that Brexit is actually impacting and affecting parental attitudes with regard to the study of modern foreign languages. Have you any further comment on that?

Yes. I'm very concerned that what's occurring with Brexit is that it's reinforcing a set of monolingual, monocultural beliefs about the UK as an English-only speaking set of nations, and we're certainly seeing with the British Council—and there's a report coming out next week—that of the schools in Wales that were surveyed, over a third of them believed that students now and their parents are saying, 'We're not going to take a language at GCSE because we don't need it any more. We'll be leaving the EU and therefore we won't be speaking any other languages'. We do a lot of work to try and counter those views and we do a lot of work with the school-university partnership. But, of course, that also then impacts negatively on community languages and pupils that speak other languages at home, which they now might not bring into schools. It creates a very, very challenging environment for people who are multilingual, and, of course, the norm is multilingual; monolingual is an aberration. People are multilingual. That is the norm globally. So, there's this whole notion that the UK has brought into a notion of English being the global lingua franca, which it is, but, for most people who speak English, it's not their first language. It's a language they've learnt alongside other languages. So, we are at risk, with reinforcing some of the Brexit attitudes, of reinforcing a very negative view, which will actually do a disservice to our young people because that is not the world that they will be active in professionally.  

11:35

That's really tragic, I've got to say, in terms of that attitude, but I'm sure that's something we can pursue in other places. David Melding. 

I'd just like to ask Meirion—as you will know that the Welsh Government concurs with the UK Government that agricultural support should move to a public goods model, do you think, explicitly, the preservation and nurture of the Welsh language should be identified as a public good?

O edrych ar y ddogfen, mae hynny yn dod drwodd—hynny yw, y cysyniad yma o nwydd cyhoeddus fel rhywbeth sydd eisiau ei ddatblygu. Ond byddwn i'n mynd yn fwy na hynny. Byddwn i'n dweud bod eisiau rhai o'r pwyntiau ynglŷn â'r iaith Gymraeg ar dudalen flaen y ddogfen hon oherwydd ei bod hi mor greiddiol ynglŷn â beth fydd proffil y Gymraeg yn y dyfodol. Hynny yw, mae'n codi bron â bod uwchlaw yr elfennau eraill sydd yna fel rhywbeth sydd yn treiddio drwy'r ddogfen i gyd. Fe ellid, wrth gwrs, rhoi e i fewn fel nwydd cyhoeddus, ond, rhywsut neu'i gilydd, i mi, mae e'n fwy na hynny. Mae e'n rhan o'n personoliaeth ni fel gwlad. Mae e'n nodwedd unigol, arbennig ohonom ni fel gwlad, ac wrth drio newid efallai y diwydiant sy'n cael y mwyaf o effaith ar ei ddefnydd, mae eisiau ei roi e ar y dudalen flaen. 

Looking at the document, that comes through—this concept of a public good as being something that should be developed. But I would go further than that. I would say that the points on the Welsh language need to be on the front page of this document, because it is so crucial and pivotal with regard to what the profile of the Welsh language will be in future. It almost rises even above the other elements included in the document, as something that runs through the document as a whole. So, yes, it could be included as a public good, but, to me, it's more than that somehow. It's part of our personality as a nation. It's a unique characteristic of us as a nation, and, in trying to change the industry that has the most impact on its use, then it has to be on the front page. 

Ie, jest ar hynny, mae'n rhyfeddol i fi nad oes asesiad effaith ar yr iaith Gymraeg wedi bod ar y cynigion sydd yn y ddogfen yna'n benodol. Ond i ddod at y cwestiwn mwy cyffredinol felly, rydych chi wedi disgrifio'r broblem, ac mae colled yr arian Ewropeaidd yma yn mynd i gael effaith negyddol iawn ar yr iaith Gymraeg yn ardaloedd y gorllewin. Beth am y syniad yma rŵan, sydd yn rhan o bolisi cyhoeddus Cymru, o greu rhanbarth economaidd penodol yn y gorllewin, efo ymyraethau penodol er mwyn cryfhau yr ecosystem ieithyddol sydd yn bodoli o ddydd i ddydd yn yr ardaloedd yna?

Just on that, it's amazing to me that there hasn't been an impact assessment in relation to the Welsh language of the proposals that are in that document specifically. But to come to the more general question, you've described the problem, and the loss of European funding is going to have a very negative impact on the Welsh language in western areas. What about this idea now, which is part of the public policy in Wales, of creating a specific economic region in the west, with specific interventions in order to strengthen the linguistic ecosystem that exists day-to-day in those areas?

Mae'r cronfeydd strwythurol yn gadael i hynny ddigwydd, hynny yw yn galluogi llywodraethau i lacio'r system er mwyn rhoi systemau ariannol yn eu lle a chefnogaeth benodol. Rwy'n tybio bod angen i hynny barhau, oherwydd pan fyddwn ni'n edrych ar orllewin Cymru, ac yn edrych ar ffyniant economaidd ar lefel Ewropeaidd, dyma'r ardaloedd sy'n dod allan fel yr ardaloedd tlotaf sydd angen cymorth. Rydym ni'n sôn am yr ardaloedd ôl-ddiwydiannol, yr ardaloedd amaethyddol. Mae gwir angen cael polisi sy'n targedu yr ardaloedd hynny. Ac os yw rhywun yn edrych yn ôl o safbwynt gwariant Llywodraeth Cymru dros y degawd diwethaf, mae'r gwariant ar yr ardaloedd hynny yn llai nag y mae e wedi bod ar ddwyrain Cymru. Ac, wedyn, rydych chi yn gweld effaith hynny o safbwynt bod difreintedd yn sylweddol yn y gorllewin. 

Fe ofynnes i wrth grŵp mawr o weision sifil, 'Ble ydych chi'n meddwl mae pobl yn siarad Cymraeg?', ac mi wnaethon nhw ddweud, 'Canton'. Ac mae'r ddelwedd hynny mor anghywir. Mae'r ganran uchaf o siaradwyr Cymraeg mewn ardaloedd difreintiedig. Mae'r rhan fwyaf o siaradwyr Cymraeg yn byw o fewn 50 munud i Abertawe. Dyna lle mae'r rhan fwyaf o siaradwyr Cymraeg yn byw—yn ardaloedd ôl-ddiwydiannol Rhydaman, Llanelli, ac wedyn yn ardal dyffryn Tywi a Chaerfyrddin. Felly, mae angen strategaeth. Mae angen gallu adnabod yr ardaloedd a dweud, 'Rydym ni eisiau buddsoddi a chynnal yr ardaloedd hynny', ac rwy'n gobeithio, allan o'r trafodaethau yma, y daw yna ymwybyddiaeth bod angen gwneud mwy o hynny.

The structural funds allow this to happen. They enable governments to loosen the reigns on the system, as it were, to put financial systems in place and specific support. I would take it that that needs to continue, because when we look at west Wales and at economic prosperity on a European level, these are the areas that come out as the poorest areas that need support. We're talking about the post-industrial areas, the agricultural areas. We truly need to have a policy that targets those areas. And if one looks back, in terms of Welsh Government expenditure over the past decade, then the expenditure on those areas has been less than it has been on the eastern parts of Wales. And you are seeing the effect of that in terms of the fact that deprivation is significant in the west. 

I asked a large group of civil servants, 'Where to you think people speak Welsh?', and they said, 'Canton.' And that perception is so incorrect. The highest percentage of Welsh speakers are in deprived areas. The majority of Welsh speakers live within 50 minutes of Swansea. That's where the majority of Welsh speakers live—in the post-industrial areas of Ammanford, Llanelli, and then in the Tywi valley and Carmarthen. So, we need a strategy. We need to be able to identify the areas and say that we need to support and invest in those areas. And I hope, out of these discussions, there will be that awareness that we need to do more of that. 

Efallai achos bod y gweision sifil hynny yn byw yn Canton ac maen nhw'n ei glywed e. Efallai taw dyna beth yw e. Nid yw hynny'n wyddonol iawn, ond efallai—[Chwerthin.]

Perhaps because those civil servants live in Canton and they hear it. Maybe that's what it is. That's not very scientific, but—[Laughter.]

Mae'n anecdot efallai sydd yn dweud wrthych chi beth mae pobl sy'n gweithio yng Nghaerdydd yn meddwl. 

It's an anecdote that perhaps speaks volumes about what people who work in Cardiff think.

Ond, wrth gwrs, mae'n ffaith bod yna dwf wedi bod yn nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg yng Nghaerdydd—un o'r ychydig ardaloedd lle mae yna ffyniant y Gymraeg, ac mae hynny'n rhywbeth i'w groesawu. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae'r bobl yna'n dod o’r gorllewin—lot fawr ohonyn nhw—ac felly mae’n rhaid bod yn ymwybodol bod cynnal yr ardaloedd cynhenid hynny yn y gorllewin yn bwydo i mewn i Gymreictod y brif ddinas. Mae’r ddau beth yr un mor bwysig â’i gilydd.

But, of course, it is a fact that there has been a growth in the number of Welsh speakers in Cardiff—one of the very few areas where the language is growing, and that is something to be welcomed. But, of course, those people come from the west—the vast majority of them—so you have to be aware that supporting those indigenous communities in the west is feeding into the Welshness of the capital city, if you like. Both aspects are as important as each other.

11:40

I ryw raddau, rŷch chi’n codi cwestiwn arall ynglŷn â mudoledd, ynglŷn â phobl sy’n symud allan o ac i mewn i orllewin a gogledd Cymru. Mae hynny’n fater arall. Wrth gwrs, fe allai Brexit gael effaith eithaf sylweddol ar hynny os oes yna daro economaidd yn digwydd lle mae yna fwy o bobl yn symud allan o’r ardaloedd Cymraeg. Beth sy’n digwydd yw bod yna bobl yn symud i mewn, sydd ddim yn siaradwyr Cymraeg, i’r ardaloedd hynny, yn enwedig, efallai, os ydy hi’n fwy anodd i fynd i fyw yn Sbaen neu’r Eidal, neu rywbeth felly. Felly, mae hynny’n factor arall o safbwynt beth fyddai sgil-effaith Brexit o ran mudoledd pobl.

To some extent, you’re raising another question there about mobility, about people moving into and out of west and north Wales. That’s another issue. Brexit could have a significant impact on that if there is an economic impact where more people move out of the Welsh-speaking areas. What happens is that people who don’t speak Welsh then move into those areas, especially if it’s more difficult to go and live in Spain or Italy and so on. So, that is another factor in terms of the impact of Brexit in terms of people’s mobility.

Diddorol. Jenny Rathbone.

Interesting. Jenny Rathbone.

Just picking up on the xenophobia and linguaphobia that you've already explained, isn't this something that already existed before Brexit? There was always that arrogance that, 'We can all speak English. It doesn't matter because everybody speaks English, so, when we go abroad, even if we can't speak the language, if we just shout louder, they'll understand'. So, I think Brexit will accelerate this arrogance if we're not careful, but isn't the problem just that we, culturally, still haven't got over being this imperial power that runs the world?

I would certainly agree that it was not triggered by Brexit, this sort of attitude, but I think what happened with Brexit is that it's been given a sort of formal approval—in other words, it's acceptable. I'll just give an example from today. I'm the chair of the University Council of Modern Languages and I've just had an e-mail today from a colleague who has written to me saying, 'My daughter has just got through the fast stream to get into the diplomatic service, the fast track, and after the security vetting, after having spent her year abroad'—I think, in the last five years, she spent a year abroad—'she's no longer able to work for that department'. So, the UK Government requires somebody to have five years' residency for a civil service post. If you've done a modern language degree and had a year abroad, you are not eligible.

So, what's happening is that we are reinforcing this notion that studying and working abroad is somehow not an opportune occasion for our young people. I'm going to make a representation about that, but how can the civil service debar somebody from a modern language degree from going into a civil service post because they spent a year abroad and they don't fit the five years' residency? I mean, that's when I talk about linguaphobia becoming systemic, because that is the Government approving of a discriminatory measure against somebody doing a modern languages degree. Now, I'm hoping that that won't be the case for the Welsh civil service, but that is a symptom of the mindset that is becoming absorbed.

That's very arresting and I'm sure it's something that should be challenged in the courts.

Well, I'm going to be challenging that one with Universities UK International. But that tells you how, when a mindset, with the referendum vote, is accepted, it comes to be absorbed culturally by people who should be policing these attitudes and not adopting them.

Okay, well, I think it's really about what the Welsh Government can do about this. Obviously, we can ensure that the Welsh language is included as part of what's called the public good in the 'Brexit and our land' policy, but I think, generally speaking, we are facing a losing battle to get people to celebrate being able to speak several languages, which is—

We're not. We're not facing a losing battle. We can't sit here and say that it's a losing battle. For me, that is not an inexorable position. We have to provide different ways to make learning a language a celebration, a joy and something important.

Okay. One of the least disadvantaged schools in my constituency has just given up on teaching two modern foreign languages, partly blaming the need to include Welsh in the curriculum as one of the reasons—one of the least disadvantaged schools in my constituency.

A ydy’n werth tynnu sylw at y ffaith mai’r ardaloedd a wnaeth bleidleisio lleiaf o blaid gadael ydy’r ardaloedd gyda siaradwyr Cymraeg ynddyn nhw? Nid wyf i'n gwybod a ydy hynny ag unrhyw ddylanwad ar hyn, ond efallai fod yna gysyniad os ŷch chi’n siarad mwy nag un iaith eich bod chi’n gallu synhwyro, efallai, beth yw natur amlieithog Ewrop, oherwydd mae Ewrop yn gyfandir amlieithog, er ddim mor amlieithog â'r rhan fwyaf o weddill y byd. Ond efallai fod yna fanteision o safbwynt gosod ein nod o gael miliwn o siaradwyr y Gymraeg i agor y drws yna i bobl weld bod yna fanteision mewn dwyieithrwydd, sef eich bod chi'n gallu edrych ar y byd mewn gwahanol ffyrdd drwy wahanol ieithoedd, ac yn y blaen. Mae yna sgil-effaith o fod yn ddwyieithog sy'n fwy na jest medru siarad dwy iaith. Felly, rydw i'n gobeithio, o safbwynt y buddsoddiad yna, y daw hynny o gymorth hefyd. Ond rydw i yn meddwl hefyd, ar yr un pryd, fod eisiau gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n dysgu mwy na dim ond Cymraeg a dim ond Saesneg. Mae eisiau agor y drws fel nad ŷm ni'n cyfyngu ein hunain i'r ddwy iaith—hynny yw, bod yna fanteision mewn bod yn amlieithog hefyd.

Is it worth drawing attention to the fact that the areas that voted least in favour of leaving are the areas with the most Welsh speakers? I don’t know whether that has an influence on this, but perhaps there is this concept that, if you speak more than one language, you can sense, perhaps, what the multilingual nature of Europe is, because Europe is a multilingual continent, although it’s not as multilingual as other parts of the world. But perhaps there are advantages in terms of setting the aim of having a million Welsh speakers in relation to opening the door to people to see that there are advantages in bilingualism, in that you can look at the world in different ways through different languages, and there are impacts of being bilingual that are more than just being able to speak two languages. So, I hope, in terms of this investment, that that will be of help as well. But I also think that we need to ensure that we learn more than just the Welsh language and the English language. We need to open the door so that we don't limit ourselves to the two languages. There are advantages in being multilingual also, in having several languages.

11:45

Many of the people in my constituency, which is definitely a multicultural, multilingual constituency, the diaspora they come from is that people speak several languages, and that's just what you do.

The multilingual self is the norm globally. Lots of monolingual British speakers misunderstand what is the normative pattern for the human brain, which is multilingualism. I think the new curriculum, effectively, when it comes into play, and I'm very optimistic about that, will bring together English and Welsh and international languages into one area of learning experience. I'm very hopeful, and I'm very much supporting our colleagues to develop a curriculum that is very, very focused on multilingual literacy, because being bilingual, whether it be Somali and French, or English and Welsh, is a massive head start for any young person, and being multilingual puts you in a place to be able to work transnationally, but also to work with companies in Wales itself that have a multilingual workforce. So, it's not a case of speaking a language to go and work abroad; it's speaking a language to get a good job in Wales. It's as simple as that.

So, I think we have to therefore provide a curriculum, a system and a mindset and a culture that makes all languages enriching, but also that is professionally beneficial. It's not a fluffy skill to add on to engineering, but actually core to being a good engineer is to have a multilingual brain.

A gaf i ychwanegu jest un sylw bach yn fanna? Efallai fod eisiau inni hefyd ystyried sut rŷm ni'n dysgu ieithoedd yn well, oherwydd mae yna ddigon o dystiolaeth i ddangos ein bod ni'n dysgu Cymraeg ac ieithoedd modern mewn dull sydd ddim yn dal sylw pobl ifanc. Felly, rydw i'n credu bod angen dysgu sut mae dysgu ieithoedd yn well, ac efallai fod angen inni ganolbwyntio mwy ar ddysgu trwy gyfrwng ieithoedd yn hytrach na thrio dysgu ieithoedd.

May I add a comment there? Perhaps we also need to consider how we teach languages better, because there is evidence that we are teaching Welsh and modern languages in a method that doesn’t draw young people's attention. So, I think we need to teach languages better, and we need to focus on teaching through the medium of languages rather than just teaching the languages themselves.

Cytuno'n llwyr. Drwy ddysgu fel parot y gwnes i ddysgu Ffrangeg, ac nid ydw i'n cofio lot er mwyn siarad pan fyddaf i yno nawr. Felly, mae hwn yn rhywbeth y byddwn i'n eilio, yn sicr. Jenny.

I completely agree. I learnt French, but it was learning as a parrot, and I don’t remember enough to be able to speak the language when I'm in France. So, that is something that I would second, definitely. Jenny.

I certainly got my first job in a very competitive area through being bilingual. I guess one of the things I need to explore is how we can take advantage of the new curriculum if we're losing the Erasmus+ funding that is one of the ways we promote, to students who may not have had the opportunity to travel outside Wales, an understanding of the importance of being able to speak different languages and share different cultures? How are we going to do that if we don't any longer have Erasmus?

I think the thing to say about that is that it isn’t just about language learning; it's about being culturally sensitive, isn't it? So, the Erasmus programme is not just about the language learning. It's about apprentice engineers, hairdressers, plumbers. It's about going abroad and being culturally aware so that, when you come back to Wales and the UK, you can be culturally aware with your customer base. Again, I think we need to bust the myth it's about language learning. It is about language learning. It's also about being culturally sensitive and bringing that back as a resource and a skill that you can use within the UK environment.

I think, on Erasmus+, if I have one suggestion for the committee it's that that's the one you need to go out and try and mobilise for as an absolute priority, because that's when we disable our young people, and also other groups in society, from being part of a rich meeting with other cultures, and actually, in some ways, seeing a positive reflection of yourself. It's very positive to meet other individuals and feel that you share values as well, so I'd really recommend that that is the absolute No. 1 thing that we must mobilise to try to retain. If we don't, then I'm afraid it will boil down to a lot of—and my colleagues before said this—extraordinarily difficult and challenging ways to create bilateral relationships. I've already met the head of France from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and there's this fracturing now within the UK Government where there are going to be leads for the devolved nations and regions, and different partnerships. That's extraordinarily time consuming and expensive and you've got to build up new partnerships. It would be so much better if we could retain all of those already existing, 40-year-old partnerships rather than have to reconstruct them via devolved presences in embassies abroad. So, I think we should try and do it, and if not, it will become bilateral, and that will rely on personal friendships, and that's why it's very important we retain our languages, because we will need those friendships, those professional partnerships—we need to trade on those to be able to carry on trading. So, we can't afford to lose languages, because that will be the bedrock of creating new partnerships going forward. So, it's an absolute premium that young people are multilingual if we really believe that Wales can carry on being an international trading nation. 

11:50

You're absolutely right to correct me that Erasmus+ isn't just about learning languages, but we also have to recognise that we haven't been that great at promoting Erasmus+ as something that is for everybody, rather than just for people who are already on their road through higher education, and that we need an awful lot more of the hairdressers, engineers, bricklayers, whatever it might be, to also be part of that rich cultural exchange. 

Well, I think I would disagree with that. I think CollegesWales, the further education sector, has been massively successful with Erasmus+ funding—massively. The €3 million was brought together to Wales in 2016-17 via the international school linking project, and that isn't just about teachers going to learn languages, that is about that. The FE sector in Wales has been very successful at mobilising for Erasmus+ grants, again, for those apprentice pupils doing higher national diplomas, et cetera, and the equivalent. So, I think we need to build on that. It isn't a negative game. 

Are we going to still be able to do that if we aren't any longer part of Erasmus+?

I should imagine it's going to be very, very difficult. 

A gaf i jest ychwanegu, ynglŷn ag Erasmus+, fel nodyn bach, hynny yw, mae Erasmus+ yn dda, ond mae'n tueddu i gefnogi ieithoedd mawr Ewrop—ychydig, clwstwr o hanner dwsin ohonyn nhw—ac nid yw'r gweddill ddim yn cael cymaint ac nid yw'r Gymraeg yn cael dim? Felly, efallai, o edrych ar gynllun newydd ar gyfer Cymru, mae eisiau meddwl yn ehangach na dim ond y chwe iaith fawr sydd yn Ewrop.

Can I just add, with regard to Erasmus+, as a small note, Erasmus+ is good, it’s positive, but it tends to support major European languages—a cluster of half a dozen of them—whereas the rest don’t receive as much, and the Welsh language receives nothing? So, looking at a new scheme for Wales, I think we need to look wider than just the six major languages in Europe.

Ocê. Diolch am hynny. David Melding. 

Okay, thank you for that. David Melding.

I'll perhaps stay on the theme of linguistic networks. At the minute, presumably the vital ones are EU based—or are some Council of Europe or international, beyond Europe as well? What will the potential loss of the European ones do in terms of particularly, I think, the Welsh language? You've mentioned how it's really, really important in terms of the current network, and I think Aberystwyth has, for instance, secured one of the major research centres in Europe in terms of minority languages. So, where are we going to go with this, and is there any way of sustaining that participation post Brexit?

Rydw i'n credu mai prif effaith Brexit o safbwynt ieithoedd lleiafrifol ar lefel Ewropeaidd yw'r ffaith eich bod chi'n colli'r llwyfan. Dyna mae'n ei wneud. Nid oes llawer o arian yn dod ar y lefel Ewropeaidd, ond mae'n creu llwyfan ichi lle mae pobl yn awyddus i drafod ac i rannu syniadau.

O ran y rhwydwaith y creais i yn 2006, yn rhyfedd iawn, wnaethom ni ddim rhoi'r gair 'Europe' ar ddechrau'r enw. Network to Promote Linguistic Diversity yw e, achos efallai roeddwn i efallai ychydig yn uchelgeisiol ac yn meddwl y gallem ni wneud rhwydwaith ehangach na Ewrop. Ond efallai rwyf i ychydig bach yn or-optimistaidd. Mi fydd y rhwydwaith hwnnw'n parhau, achos nid yw hi'n ddibynnol ar arian Ewropeaidd. Gwnaethom ni greu model o rwydwaith oedd yn gallu dibynnu ar dâl aelodaeth yr aelodau. Felly mae yna 14 o Lywodraethau'n talu €15,000 i fod yn aelod, ac mae'r rhwydwaith yn cael ei chynnal ar hynny. 

Fe gafodd y rhwydwaith—enillom ni tua €2 filiwn dros ddegawd gan y Comisiwn, ond mae'r arian yna, i bob pwrpas, wedi dod i ben. Nid oes dim arian yn dod o'r cyfeiriad yna bellach. Felly, mwy na thebyg, o safbwynt rhwydweithio ar lefel Ewropeaidd, mae hynny yn bosibl ac yn gallu parhau. Mae, wrth gwrs, yn dibynnu ar Lywodraeth Cymru. A ydy Llywodraeth Cymru eisiau bod yn aelod o rwydwaith Ewropeaidd sydd â dwy nod: un yw rhannu arfer da, a'r llall yw lobïo ym Mrwsel? Felly mae yna gwestiwn yn codi fanna: a fyddan nhw eisiau parhau i dalu tâl aelodaeth weddol sylweddol ar gyfer rhwydwaith felly? Rydw i'n gobeithio y byddan nhw, ond, wrth gwrs, efallai y byddan nhw'n gofyn y cwestiwn, 'A ydym ni'n cael gwerth am arian?' Ond mae e'n beth hynod o werthfawr. 

Os edrychwch chi ar lefel y byd, mae cynllunio ieithyddol yn digwydd orau yn Ewrop. Os ŷch chi'n edrych ar Ewrop, mae'r cynllunio ieithyddol gorau mewn ieithoedd lleiafrifol yn digwydd o fewn y rhwydwaith yma. A dweud y gwir, mae'r cynllunio rhwydwaith gorau yn digwydd—sori, mae'r cynllunio ieithyddol gorau yn digwydd—yng Nghymru, ar lefel y byd. Weithiau rydym ni'n anghofio hynny. Mae gyda ni well cynllunwyr ieithyddol na bron neb arall yn y byd. Dyna'r gwirionedd. Felly, mae'n bwysig iawn ein bod ni'n cadw'r statws yna, ac mae'n bwysig iawn ein bod ni, ar lefel Ewropeaidd, yn gallu rhannu ein profiad a thynnu ar brofiad gwledydd eraill hefyd, achos rydw i'n credu, o safbwynt hyrwyddo ieithoedd lleiafrifol, rhannu arferion da a profiadau da yw'r peth pwysig, oherwydd mae trio arbed a hyrwyddo iaith leiafrifol gyda un o'r pethau anoddaf y gallwch ei wneud. Nid oes braidd neb hyd yn hyn wedi llwyddo i wneud hynny gyda iaith sydd ddim yn iaith y wladwriaeth. Felly, mae'n rhaid inni adeiladu ar yr arbenigedd sydd o'n cwmpas ni, ac mae yna lot.  

I think that the main effect of Brexit in terms of minority languages on the European level is that you’re losing that platform. That’s what it does. There isn’t a great deal of funding that comes from the European direction, but it does provide that platform where people are eager to discuss and to share ideas.

In terms of the network that I created in 2006, strangely enough, we didn’t place the word ‘Europe’ at the beginning of the title: it's Network to Promote Linguistic Diversity. Perhaps I was slightly ambitious, but I thought that we could maybe have a wider network than just Europe. But I perhaps was over-optimistic there. That network will continue because it isn’t dependent on European funding. We created a model of a network that could depend on the membership payment of the members. So, there are 14 Governments that pay €15,000 to be a member, and the network is maintained and supported on that basis.

We received €2 million over a decade from the Commission, but that funding has, to all intents and purposes, come to an end. There is no funding coming from the Commission now. So, in terms of networking on the European level, that could continue. Of course, it depends on the Welsh Government. Does the Welsh Government want to be a member of a European network that has two aims: one to share good practice, and the second to lobby in Brussels? So, there is a question there about whether they would want to continue to pay a membership fee, a fairly significant fee, for such a network. I hope they will, but perhaps they will ask, ‘Are we getting value for money from it?’ But it is extremely valuable.

If you’re looking at the global level, then linguistic planning happens best in Europe. If you look at Europe, the best linguistic planning in terms of minority languages happens within this network. The best linguistic planning happens in Wales, truth be told, on a global level. Sometimes, we forget that. We’re better language planners than almost everyone else in the world, and that’s the truth. So, it is very important that we do keep that status, and it’s very important that we, on a European level, can share our experiences and draw on the experiences of other nations as well, because I think, in terms of promoting minority languages, it’s all about sharing good practice and good experiences. That’s what’s important, because trying to save and promote minority languages is one of the most difficult things you can do. Almost no-one to date has succeeded in the way that we have done with a language that isn’t the language of the state. So, we have to build on the expertise that we have, and there’s a great deal of it.

11:55

Os nad oes yna gwestiwn arall, rydym wedi dod i ddiwedd y sesiwn, ond—

If there aren’t any further questions, our session has come to an end—

Chair, if I may—[Inaudible.] In regard to my previous question, I'm trying to still dig down into what could potentially be missing in future in terms of European structural funding. I'm aware from the Welsh Language Commissioner's evidence that there are funding programmes, whether you'd call them direct or indirect, but with potential to combine economic and linguistic benefits. So, there's the £4.38 million from the digital economy programme, which has set a 20 per cent target of involvement of Welsh speakers, the 'routes to the summit' programme, and also the indirect routes around the common agricultural policy. So, in terms of backfilling those particular types of structural funding, has there been, from your perspectives, any work ongoing to be able to state that there is a hole there, potentially, in the future that we need to fill, or is it just a matter, as we've said previously, with previous witnesses, that we are actually just waiting to see what is happening before we take that leap into the abyss? 

Yng nghyd-destun y Gymraeg a beth fydd yn debygol o ddigwydd, ychydig iawn o waith sydd wedi ei wneud. Nid oes casglu data wedi bod, nid oes dadansoddi wedi bod, hyd y gwelaf i. Rydw i'n credu bod hynny'n amlwg yn y ddogfen ar amaeth. Hynny yw, fe fyddai rhywun yn tybio wrth lunio'r ddogfen hon y byddai rhywun yn mynd ati fel y peth cyntaf i gael proffeil ieithyddol fel rhan o'r ddadansoddiad, neu hyd yn oed dadansoddiad cymunedol neu gymdeithasol, ond nid yw hynny wedi digwydd. Ac rydw i'n tybio, ar gyfer y blynyddoedd nesaf, y bydd angen i'r gwasanaeth sifil yn Llywodraeth Cymru fynd ati i adnabod y data, i gasglu yr wybodaeth ac i greu polisïau sy'n llenwi'r bylchau yma. 

Gyda'r farchnad ddigidol sengl, mae hynny yn mynd i fod yn greiddiol ar gyfer y dyfodol. Dyna un o'r pethau pwysicaf mae'r Undeb Ewropeaidd wedi ei gyhoeddi yn ddiweddar. Nid oes sôn am iaith o gwbl yn y ddogfen honno, felly mae hynny yn bryder. Ond mae angen, rydw i'n credu, i Lywodraeth Cymru edrych ar yr elfennau yma a gweld lle mae'r tyllau, a chreu'r darlun iawn.  

In the context of the Welsh language and what is likely to happen, very little work has been done on that. There’s been no data gathering, there’s been no analysis done, as far as I can see. I think that’s clear in this document on agriculture. One would think that, in putting together this particular document, the first thing is that it would have that language profile as part of the analysis or even a community analysis or social analysis, but that hasn’t happened. And I would imagine that, for the next few years, the civil service in the Welsh Government will have to identify the data, gather the information and create policies that do fill those gaps that you talked about.

With regard to the single digital market, that is going to be crucially important for the future. That’s one of the most important things that the European Union has announced recently. There’s no mention made of language at all in that document, so that is a concern. But we do need, I think, for the Welsh Government to look at these elements and to see where the gaps are and to put together the right picture.

Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn am ddod i mewn atom ni heddiw. Os oes unrhyw gwestiynau ychwanegol, fe wnawn ni ysgrifennu atoch, mae'n siŵr, ond diolch yn fawr iawn am eich amser yma heddiw. 

Okay. Thank you very much for coming in today. If there are any additional questions, we’ll write to you, I’m sure, but thank you very much for attending here today and for your time.

Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you very much. 

5. Papurau i’w nodi
5. Paper(s) to note

Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen at eitem 5 a papurau i'w nodi. Mae yna bapurau 5.1 a 5.2 yn ymwneud â'r adroddiad y gwnaethom ni ei wneud ar addysg cerddoriaeth yng Nghymru, ac wedyn perthynas Llywodraeth Cymru â stiwdios Pinewood—llythyr ataf i gan Lywodraeth Cymru. A oes gan unrhyw Aelod sylw ar y rhain? Na. 

We move on to item 5 and papers to note. There are papers 5.1 and 5.2, relating to the report we did on music education in Wales and then the Welsh Government’s relationship with Pinewood—a letter to me from the Welsh Government. Does any Member have any comments on these? No.

6. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod ar gyfer y busnes a ganlyn:
6. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for the following business:

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Ocê. Symud ymlaen felly at eitem 6, cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd am weddill y cyfarfod. Iawn? Diolch. 

Okay. So, we move on to item 6, which is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Content? Yes. Thank you.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:58.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 11:58.