National Assembly for Wales

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay, thank you.

Item 2 this morning is our first oral evidence session for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome representatives of the teaching unions today: Hannah O'Neill, Blaenau Gwent branch secretary for the ATL section of the National Education Union; Neil Butler, NASUWT, national officer for Wales; Rebecca Williams, who is Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru deputy general secretary and policy officer; and Roger Vaughan, who is UCAC national president. Thank you all for coming. We're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say, and if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members. The first questions are from Siân Gwenllian.

Yes, thank you. Well, I think it entirely depends upon the school, and I think what we've got is a mixed pattern all the way through Wales. Where a school, and indeed the headteacher of the school and the governors of the school, have taken the Welsh bac seriously and they've appointed a Welsh bac co-ordinator and there is a stable and strong team to deliver the Welsh bac, I think the Welsh bac, now in its present form—I don't think that was true in its previous form—is actually being well delivered. Unfortunately, even though the Welsh bac became an indicator, a lot of schools in Wales—and you'll see that from the evidence that we've presented—are still basically using the Welsh bac as a filler. The staff being asked to teach the Welsh bac are those with a little bit of spare space on their timetables, they have a cast of thousands in terms of those delivering it, and I think where that happens, the Welsh bac is not well respected and understood, either within the school, within the management of the school, or within the governing body of the school. But it's a different picture from school to school throughout Wales.

I would agree as well. It does vary across the schools. There are many different ways it's delivered. Sometimes it's delivered through form teachers during the mornings, and then there are drop-down sessions through the timetable through the year. Other times it's actual lessons, and you've got a range of teachers teaching it from across the whole curriculum, or you've got subject-specific teachers in one area focusing on it. So, it does vary. It does work better when there is obviously a co-ordinator in charge of delivering it, and where there is support and continuing professional development available, but it does vary across Wales.

I think just one extra point is that children are not as mature in key stage 4. When they go into key stage 5, obviously post-16 education, they are much more mature and they do respond to Welsh bac a lot better. And I've had past pupils who have come back to me and said, 'We're doing the Welsh bac in college and we understand why we're doing it now. We get why you were talking to us and explaining it to us. We've matured, we understand it more.' And they come back and ask for support and are working with our children for community challenges. So they do see the benefit when they're in college, because they are more mature. 

I think the negativity is around about the fact that there hasn't been enough information out to schools, enough for members. There isn't enough exemplar material, either, for the delivery of it, and there isn't enough CPD available. Where there has been CPD, it has been exceptionally good. It has been down to schools sharing their exemplar material with other schools, but it hasn't been done across the whole of the board yet—not to the standard that we would expect from other subjects in the same way. 

I think also there was a concern from, certainly, our members who do not teach the Welsh bac about the impact of the Welsh bac on their subject areas, both in terms of children opting to do their subject areas—there's been certainly a shortfall in non-core as there's been a movement over to the Welsh bac—and also in terms of those learners who do the Welsh bac being removed from classes to catch up with aspects of the coursework. I have to say, though, that that's not particular just to the Welsh bac, that's also in terms of the core areas. That happens all the time. That wouldn't be such a big problem if it wasn't for the extremely rigorous accountability regimes that operate in schools, and it's very difficult to teach a child that actually is not in front of you. And there were great concerns from our members in terms of the impact of the Welsh bac in that respect. 

No. I think there were issues in terms of both the vocational side, in terms of the complexity of the skills challenge certificate, in terms of those following a vocational pathway, but also in terms of those at the top end as well. A great worry of ours is those schools close to the border have a flight over the border to escape the Welsh bac so that they don't get distracted by the Welsh bac in terms of, say, following four A-levels in colleges over the border. Certainly it's been mentioned by many of our members who teach in schools over the border that that's an issue as well. So both at the top end academically and at the vocational end as well there are issues with regard to the Welsh bac. 

So it's not just about perception.

No, I don't think it's about perception, but perhaps reality in terms of numbers. In terms of, as I said, the academic end, I think there's numbered evidence to show that—not just from our members, but from other organisations. I think it's in our evidence there as well that there is an issue with flight over the border, yes. 

Thank you. Hefin.

How do you perceive the views of school leadership teams in promoting and enabling the Welsh bac?

Well, I think it ties into the first question, really. Where a school leadership team takes the Welsh bac seriously, it is well resourced, it's well staffed, it's well presented. In a sense, if I could pull into the last question as well, by the way, when that is done, you bring the children along as well, because in terms of—. I think you're right, by the way, in terms of all subject areas. It's about the quality of the teacher standing in front of them and they can sell that subject, you can sell the Welsh bac, as long as you've got that quality standing in front of you. So, it just goes back to where it's taken seriously. And I'm just surprised that that's not more schools in Wales, considering it became an indicator, but there are still schools out there where it's basically just a filler.

Can you give us some idea of the consistency of that?

Not statistically in terms of data, no. But it's an interesting question, certainly, and we will go back and look at it.

And you believe that it would, then, have an impact on learners and parents and—? The whole system would be reliant upon the culture of school leadership teams. Okay.

When would that be?

Right. Okay. That's interesting to know. And what about employers and their perceptions of the Welsh bac? Do you get the impression that they are falling over themselves to recruit pupils who've studied it over A-level pupils? Do you think they value it more than those kinds of qualifications, or is that just not right?

So, do you think—? So, employers are focused on skills. Do you think that employers might feel that it doesn't matter what their qualification is, it's about how rounded and how skilled the individual is? And the kind of employers you'd go to after leaving school, straight from school, for example, would value skills more than the name of a qualification.

Yes. So, the success of the Welsh bac will lie in demonstrating to employers that the skills outcomes are being met, more than any label or name of qualification. 

Is that universally felt?

I think, as well, there needs to be more information to employers, parents and the community about this qualification and its value as well, because, if you get them all on board with it, I think it does change the perspective from the children; they valuate it a lot more, and I think—. It's a good qualification, there's a lot of merit within it, but I don't think it's as widely understood as other qualifications out there at the moment, because it is a newer qualification. 

Okay. Yesterday, at First Minister's questions, the leader of the UKIP group put to the First Minister the view that universities don't value it at all. Is that fair?

No. It depends on the university. Again, I think you've got a very mixed bag with regard to the universities. There will be a number of universities that will accept it, other universities that won't accept it as an A-level but look upon it positively as creating a more rounded candidate; there are some universities that reject it out of hand. So, again, it's a mixed bag, but I do think, by the way, that that is an issue and that's a problem, because if just one, if you like, of the top universities entirely rejects the Welsh bac, that's going to be a matter of concern to a student who might be looking at that particular university as a place that they want to go to to study. So, there's a lot of work to be done there, I think, with regard to persuading the universities of the quality and the importance of the qualification. 

Okay.

So, what I'm trying to do, then, is understand the reason for that, and why there's that disparity. Can you reflect on why the disparity might occur?

Okay. And any other views across the board why universities—

We are going to do—we've got a section, really, on universities, so if we leave that now, please. Thank you. Suzy.

Just very briefly, to follow up on something Hefin was asking about—the nature of the skills challenge in particular and the understanding of the qualification as a whole—would disaggregating the skills challenge from the academic end of the qualification, if you like, actually help or hinder understanding, or would it be an additional thing for universities to get confused about? [Laughter.] Because if it's being treated as a sort of Duke of Edinburgh equivalent, that's got a value, but it's not necessarily one that's equivalent to an A-level.

Quite.

So, any views on that? So, it's not necessarily the content, it's how it's packaged. 

Okay. Thank you, Chair.

We'll go on to some questions now about how it's viewed in terms of being an equivalent, rigorous qualification. Dawn Bowden. 

Thank you, Chair. Good morning. Can I ask you, really, the views, initially, of teachers and whether teachers are of the view that the bac is as rigorous as other qualifications? And perhaps the difference between teachers who deliver the bac qualification and those who don't, and if there's a different view around that. I know, NASUWT, you've made some comments that you felt that the advanced level SCC had improved that, but your members seem to have a slightly different view. 

Yes. We do think the SCC has improved that, but in terms of we still—the overwhelming response from most of our members is that there's no parity in terms of the Welsh bac and A-levels. However, I do have to say that is mixed and, obviously, there's a different picture I think that comes from those—again, going back to the initial point—schools that have kind of taken it more seriously and those who are, if you like, embedded in it; they're more positive. But certainly the majority of the members speaking to us would say there is no parity between the Welsh bac and A-levels, no. 

And is that the view of other organisations as well? Anyone?

Members' views do vary, and some members of staff, they absolutely love teaching it, and I think it's down to their skill set as well as a teacher that really enhances the learning of it, whereas the teachers who don't teach it, they're quite scared of it because it's something completely and utterly different. There are so many components to it, so not all teachers teach every component, so they don't see the big picture of it. So, it is hard to look at it and how to assess it and develop these skills with the children. But it does vary—some absolutely love this qualification and some teachers feel like it is the bane of their lives, because the training they've had for it does vary, and it's down to the individual schools.

Yes, because I think you've said that it had been introduced without clear parameters in terms of the expectations, and you talked about some teachers creating their own marking schemes, as well.

Yes. It was in the past, when they first brought out the new one: staff were looking at it and at how they could assess it. Now the Welsh Joint Education Committee has looked at this and there are stronger assessment criteria.

It's clearer now, yes.

And I've personally assessed it as well and it does work alongside—. Where I deliver art, it's the same way that it's been done across a lot more subjects, so it is becoming more fluid and easier for teachers to understand.

Okay. And similar views from your members?

Yes, I take that point. And what about the learners themselves? I think I've got a clear picture of what your members are saying, but what's the kind of feedback you're getting from learners in terms of their perception of the qualification as an equivalent to A-levels, for instance?

Well, I would agree in the sense that you're not comparing like with like, but, in terms of the learners, again, it goes back to the point I was making about the issues of flight over the border. There are going to be those who are aiming for, if you like, the top universities, wanting four straight As, who will see it as an extra burden that they can well do without whilst they concentrate on making sure that they get those academic results for those universities. And, for those, I think it would be seen as a problem.

Sure. Okay. My final question is really about whether the study for bac is just becoming too onerous for teachers and students. Is that the feeling that you get, or, again, is it a mixed picture?

The study for it in terms of the—. Well—

The whole process of going through the Welsh bac—is that considered to be too onerous, generally? I mean, I know we are generalising, so there might be a mixed picture, but are you getting the feedback from your members and from learners that it's too onerous, given everything else that they're doing at that level of their education?

Sure. Okay. Okay, that's fine. Any other comments? No?

On this, Siân?

I think it's a very difficult question to answer, because, in a sense, doing the maths on that, a head and a senior leadership team that recognise the importance of the Welsh bac and the importance of actually building a strong team sounds to me like a good head and a good leadership team, so you'd have thought that would have a knock-on effect in terms of the way the school was run and in terms of the outcome on that. I have no evidence to back that up, but that's certainly the way I would be thinking. My experience of areas where I know the Welsh bac works well is that, certainly, those schools are good schools, but I have no evidence. 

I think one other point is that it's down to the quality of the co-ordinator as well, not just the leadership, but the Welsh bac co-ordinator, how much time they've got for planning, preparing, delivering and supporting their members who are doing the qualification with pupils, and whether they're the right person as well doing it, and whether they've been supported enough as well to get everything done. It is a very robust qualification and a lot of time needs to go into that, and if that co-ordinator doesn't have enough time, then certainly the members of staff are not going to have the time either. So, it does take a while to embed, and where it's being embedded well, there has been success in those schools.  

And that's down to leadership again, though, isn't it—making sure that they do have enough time and, of course, it's the leaders that appoint those co-ordinators. 

Apologies for jumping back in, but to support Hannah on that as well, because I think we spend an awful lot of time looking at headteachers and seeing their leadership teams, but, actually, your key workers, certainly in secondary schools, are your middle leaders—they're like your captains in the trenches, basically; they're the ones who are actually co-ordinating at that ground level, and the quality there will certainly lead to quality in terms of the Welsh bac; that's true. 

Thank you. Julie. 

Thank you. I think we've covered some of the university questions, but I was going to ask to what extent universities and employers consider it as equivalent to GCSEs and A-levels, and I think we've covered that in terms of universities. But have you anything more to say, or anything about employers? Nothing to add. No. Okay, fine. 

So, I'll go on to the skills. Do you think that the skills that are learnt in the skills challenge can be learned in other general or vocational qualifications? 

To be honest with you, I think there's, in a sense, cross-fertilisation in all subject areas where there are things that are strong in a particular area and are also covered in other particular areas. So, certainly, you could look at the Welsh bac and take it apart and say, 'Yes, that's covered here, there and everywhere', but I think that's also true of other qualifications as well.  

That's a very interesting point. But, at the moment, you think that the skills are unique to the Welsh bac.

I think what is interesting is a lot of schools now are looking at creating a 'baby bac' so they're developing the skills in key stage 3 in anticipation of them going on to the Welsh bac in key stage 4. So, they've started to embed those skills at a much younger age, so by the time they get to key stage 4 they value them and they have a much stronger understanding of it and they're more mature with it, whereas we're seeing them more mature in key stage 5. So, they're trying to nurture that in the younger years already. That is starting to show success and the younger ones are enjoying it as well. 

So, you'd reject the idea of Cambridge university, which said the skills learnt in the SCC are most effectively evidenced in the minimum three A-levels they require. From what you've said, you would reject that, what Cambridge university is saying. 

I think I would. The Welsh bac is an entirely different creature. I would also say, by the way, an interesting sideline to this is that Wales is embarking on a very interesting journey in terms of curriculum reform and that's going to have a major impact over the next five years or so. The terms of the Welsh bac seem to me to certainly be closer to the philosophy that governs the curriculum reform than the present qualifications are. Indeed, there's going to have to be a wholesale change in Welsh qualifications so that they dovetail into the curriculum reform. So, we're looking at and we're studying the Welsh bac. What we agree with here is it is different, it is unique, but it is closer to that ethos that's coming through in terms of curriculum reform than the present qualifications system, which we'll have to change. 

Yes, thank you. I think we've already discussed the fact that the way that universities regard the Welsh bac does vary. Does that actually cause problems, the fact that their views vary?

Have you got any observations on the variation? For instance, the young people that we met told us that they thought that universities like Bath and Bristol were quite keen on the Welsh bac, and that possibly may be because of proximity to Wales. Is that something that you've observed—a better understanding?

I've been to university open days and questioned people about do they accept the Welsh bac, and it varies, as we've said, from course to course. 

Thank you. Next questions are from Suzy Davies.

Thank you very much. By next year, the bac is supposed to be universally adopted in all our schools. I can see three different views from three different unions here. First of all—

Workload for pupils is 'excessive' and too 'burdensome'. Then, for Neil, why this should just be optional, no question, and then, Hannah, there are concerns, but you're not particularly coming down on either side about whether it should be compulsory or not. Is this inconsistency between the three of you down to the inconsistency of views of your members, pretty much? I've listened to all the evidence so far. It seems like there is no clear train of direction—or whatever you call it, yes, train of direction from where we are at the moment. There's just so much inconsistency that it's almost impossible to get a clear picture of universal adoption. Is that a fair assessment?

Well, there's certainly inconsistency in the views of our members, but our view on this comes down straight in terms of our role as a trade union in protecting our members' jobs. We are concerned at the moment, given the Welsh bac, given the non-universal acceptance from the universities, given the fact that that gives rise to possible flight over the border, that there's therefore a jobs threat to our members, because of, obviously, fewer students. And, so, we're concerned about that, and, therefore—. Also, I would say the majority of our members are concerned about the Welsh bac and its impact upon their subject areas as well, certainly those, obviously, who don't teach the Welsh bac. So, overall, we think, at the moment, given all of those issues, that it should be optional. 

Okay. Thank you. Hannah, have you got anything to add to just that it's worrying?

It is worrying because people are worried about jobs, and because, in some schools, it is imposed and it has to be delivered, it is taking choice away from pupils, which means that curriculum areas are impacted and timetables are reduced. It does mean redundancies for some members of staff, and it is a big, big worry, or they're teaching outside of their specialisation. So, there are concerns. There is merit to it, but there are concerns, and I think time will tell how it carries through. 

And then the other end of the spectrum.

Well, actually, this leads to me to a quick question. I'll just finish these two off quickly. 

I'm going to have to ask—[Inaudible.]

Okay. Well, the first one is, if we're looking at universal adoption—good or bad—have Welsh Government done all they can to make it clear as to why it should be universally adopted? Obviously, you have one argument for it. And the second—and we've touched on the Welsh-language side, so if you can answer it in other ways—is there a distinction between particular geographical areas and different types of school about the views of universal adoption? Underneath the inconsistency, is it all one type of school that thinks it's a great idea or one type of school that thinks it's not a great idea, and is that affected by other schools around it, which you've touched on a little bit there? 

Who'd like to answer that? Briefly, please.

So, urban schools versus rural schools—that type of thing is what I'm looking for.

I think one extra thing you could add is that there are, obviously, secondary schools but there are also PRU environments as well, pupil referral units. There's also home tuition going on as well. It's more difficult for them to access the provision as well because there are elements of community groups, working groups, and so these learners are not able to work in teams and not able to work in community environments. So, for them, it's going to be much more difficult for them to access them, particularly if they are home tutored. How can they complete all those elements if they're one person at home with their tutor when they need to work in teams for quite a number of the pieces?

Just quickly, we're back to school leadership and individuals are key—

We are. And the trouble is there's a bit of a hostage to fortune in terms of answering your question because there's certainly no data or evidence on this; it's just in terms of what I would think would be the pattern. It just goes back to what I've been saying in terms of those border schools as well—I don't think they would like to see a compulsory element simply because of the issue of those students making that choice of going over the border. So, I think there would be probably a pattern there, but I've got no evidence. 

But, essentially, we're not ready for 100 per cent take-up. Would that be fair?

Okay. Another unintended consequence.

Janet, succinct questions, please. 

Your turn.

Right, okay. Do you think the Welsh bac should be optional for certain groups, such as those following vocational routes or more able and talented pupils, or would that devalue it? 

I think that would devalue it. It's either optional or it's compulsory and I don't think you should be dividing it up into different types of students because then it would just devalue it.  

Is that the view of the panel?

I would agree, but I think the learners would differ on that one as well, having heard their views on many occasions. They would prefer it to be an option that they could choose because they think it takes away from their other options as well. But that's the learners not my members. 

Roger. 

Rebecca. 

Okay, fine. Is there an effect for pupils studying the Welsh bac on non-curriculum activities, and is that a concern?

In terms of the responses we got when we asked our members, we had one example of that, and that was, in a sense, the same type of impact it has on other subject areas, in terms of children being removed from activities so that they can catch up in terms of work. And we had one example of that. But I don't think that's a broad picture. I don't think that's a general picture. But I think there is an impact in some institutions for short periods.

I know, when I took evidence at a school in Bangor, the non-curricular and going out and working in the community—. The pupils themselves felt that that was really great value, because it rounded them as an individual and actually taught them quite a lot of skills. Would you agree that's a really good part of it? 

Are there any issues relating to the way that the Welsh Government provide funding for the Welsh bac? I know teachers at the round-table event suggested that there were inconsistencies, and the NEU said that it should be funded in the same way as other qualifications.

Yes, just to say, we would agree with that—it should be funded in the same way as other qualifications.

Okay, thanks.

Okay, thank you. And we're moving on now to some questions from Michelle Brown.

Do you want me to keep it to script?

Yes.

Just moving on a little bit from funding, given the Welsh Government’s emphasis on the Welsh bac, do you think it's been adequately resourced?

There is a bigger element as well, which is that learners have to use computers to actually produce their coursework. When this happens, because there are so many learners at one time taking part in Welsh bac, it means that other areas have to have all their computers and things taken off them and then they're given to the Welsh bac pupils as priority. But what's happening is that there are also GCSE subjects that need their computer provision. They don't have it any more because computers have to go to the Welsh bac learners. So, there clearly isn't enough funding for equipment.

Any other comments?

I think the problem is, again, it goes right back to the beginning, in terms of that it depends on how it's delivered in schools. But in those schools where it's not being well delivered, we've certainly had a lot of evidence from a lot of our members in terms of totally inadequate training, support and resources, to nightmare scenarios of turning up and being told, 'You're teaching the Welsh bac. There's the class, get on with it', which has happened and does happen. So, in that sense, again, it's a mixed bag as well. But, the problem, of course, is that, it being relatively new, it's not as though many teachers have actually had detailed and in depth training in any of this. So, we range from a smattering of support to none whatsoever.

Thank you. Moving on to the teachers allocated, the comment's been made in the evidence that staff with surplus contact time are often drafted in to teach the Welsh bac. To what extent are the best teachers for the Welsh bac being actually allocated to the role?

Why do you think that the schools are actually doing this? You've mentioned a lack of continuity in the teaching of the Welsh bac. What's pushing them down that route? Normally, surely, with a subject area, a teacher would teach that from year to year. Why is that not happening with the Welsh bac, do you think?

Okay, thank you. Michelle, have you finished?

Yes.

Okay. There are just two final questions, then. Based on what you were saying in answer to Michelle Brown, do you think there's a leadership issue here that we need to be, maybe, making a recommendation about to the Welsh Government?

Okay. A final question: to what extent are you concerned that the Welsh bac is actually leading to a narrowing of the curriculum, both at pre 16 and post 16? We've heard that some subjects are falling out at pre 16, and we know that it's a common complaint from young people that, maybe, they can't do their four A-levels or whatever.

I think it is leading to a narrowing of the curriculum. If you take any subject and you shoehorn it into the school curriculum, other subject areas are going to lose out. So, I think they lose out in that sense. They also lose out in terms of the staffing that is being used to teach the Welsh bac, which, to a certain extent, falls into the previous question as well, because it will be the leadership that decides who is going to teach this and where they're going to be taken from. So, in that sense, I think it's inevitable that there's going to be a narrowing of the curriculum.

Okay. Is that something that you all agree on, yes?

Okay, thank you very much. We've come to the end of our questions. Thank you very much, all of you, for your attendance and for answering such a variety of questions. We very much appreciate your time. You'll be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again for attending.

Okay, we will move swiftly on, then, to our next evidence session, which is with school leaders. I'm very pleased to welcome Tim Pratt, who is director of the Association of School and College Leaders Cymru; Gavin Jones, deputy head of Caerleon Comprehensive; and Jane Harries, headteacher at Haverfordwest High School. Thank you for attending. I'm sorry that we've kept you waiting a little while. We'll go straight into questions, and the first questions are from Siân Gwenllian.

Well, I'm new to the position at Haverfordwest high, having previously been in both Carmarthenshire and Powys, and have always experienced the delivery of the Welsh bac. Certainly, when I worked in Carmarthenshire, we were one of the first pilot schools. But, yes, in answer to your question, Haverfordwest high does deliver it at both key stage 4 and key stage 5.

Yes, similarly at Caerleon, we were involved in the WBQ pilot level 3, probably from about 2008, and currently deliver WBQ at level 2 for all year 10 and year 11 students, and at level 3 post 16.

I think teachers, because they are subject specialists, do have a conflict in their passion for the Welsh bac, but those who have been trained and are adequately prepared for the delivery quickly become converts too.

My experience is similar, I think. Teachers who become part of the team who deliver WBQ are actually very often impressed with what they need to deliver and what the children can get out of the qualification, and that's a surprise to some of them. Those teachers who are not part of the delivery team I think will not be fully aware of the value of the qualification, because they don't deliver it and they won't know about the content and the skills that it does develop—although, actually, their subject may very well benefit as a consequence of some of the skills that are being developed.

Sorry, what do you mean by 'value'?

Is there a difference in the way that it's valued, depending on where we're talking about—are we talking about key stage 4, or are we talking about post 16? The impression is that post 16 seems to be more with it than the earlier stages.

I think that would be, probably, an oversimplification. I think that, probably, key stage 4 students gain an enormous amount out of doing the Welsh bac, because—

I mean the teachers.

In terms of the teachers, I don't think there's any vast difference between them. One of the things I think you get as a teacher teaching the Welsh bac is you see students developing in ways that they wouldn't develop through the normal curriculum. The development of those skills, in particular, that are so important as they go on into later life are the things that you see develop, and it's as important for students pre 16 to develop those skills, because some of them won't go on to study A-levels, some of them won't go on to university, some of them will go straight into work—and, actually, to have those skills develop before they leave school at 16 is a really important thing.

Initially, I would say 'yes', but they very quickly develop that sense of benefit from the provision, the wider skills that they're developing, and certainly, as far as the staff are concerned, in relaying it to the pupils, as we move forward towards the national mission, I certainly can see an increased benefit. If we are aiming for the independence, and the ambitious and capable learners, the skills that they develop, certainly, are benefiting their other academic or vocational qualifications. I suppose there are more similarities between the style of delivery between the Welsh bac and vocational qualifications than there is between the traditional academic qualifications and the Welsh bac, but I think that's a huge benefit for our pupils, because then they are seeing different styles of teaching, different styles of assessment and the different benefits from the very different routes that they encompass throughout their educational provision. 

I think one issue is consistency within the school, which the school has got a lot of control over. I think, when you cascade and look for opinions across other providers, I think there are issues that present in terms of the way schools have resourced the qualification and structured the way they wish to deliver it, because there are differences, and I think that's probably one of the reason why there are differences in outcomes from one institution to the next. I think schools that have strong outcomes at WBQ from a very early part of the design for the resourcing of it will have invested significantly in terms of the leadership and the training that would be required to deliver the qualification. And, I think, perhaps that's not consistent right across all education institutions. 

It is quite noticeable where you've got real commitment from the leadership of a school just how important the Welsh bac is viewed, whereas if you've got lukewarm support, it doesn't have the same impact. Now, what we are finding from our members is that the majority of schools do have that level of support, but there are still schools where it isn't perceived as that important. 

And we'll delve into why that is there as well. 

I know it's probably worth mentioning as well, if it's okay, that one of the challenges recently with, for example, the roll-out of a new, more robust level 3 qualification—schools that had established strong features of resourcing were in a far better position to deliver the new course; course materials came out very quickly. So, new schools that were establishing provision were really almost feeling they were cut adrift with very little resourcing available at the time of the start of the course to deliver what needed to be delivered. 

Okay, thank you. 

If I may, could I make one comment on that? The lack of consistency sometimes is an advantage because the flexibility of the qualification does offer different regions the opportunity to tailor their provision to their locality as well. So, I can see that your question was about the consistency across, but also I think schools have widely welcomed the opportunity of scheduling their own structure and having that flexibility of being able to design their own programme of delivery that fits in with their locality. So, we all think that lack of consistency, necessarily, is sometimes a negative thing, but as long as the outcomes are positive, the lack of consistency and the variability between delivery models is sometimes a benefit and not just a negative.

Okay, thank you. Hefin David. 

Just going back to something that Tim said because I'd like to put it to Gavin and Jane: would you say that the school leadership's views on the value of the Welsh bac are decisive in its value amongst other stakeholders? 

Yes, I would, certainly. I spoke—. We had our secondary heads' meeting yesterday, and all of the secondary heads in Pembrokeshire certainly valued it and portrayed it in that way, and that's why it's becoming increasingly more successful. 

And you could understand where that would extend to teaching staff, because they would be directly under the remit of the leadership team, but what about parents and pupils as well? Does the reach and influence of the school leadership team extent to pupils and parents, particularly, too? 

I think that those audiences are more difficult to convert, and, certainly, our members have stated that they certainly realise the value of it later rather than immediately. So, we have many students who are in university who come back and say, 'Well, actually, I'm really glad that you made me do that and really glad that we stuck to it.' The benefits from it, the widespread—. The development of their skills is certainly really beneficial.

So, the benefit recognised by parents and pupils is almost after the event.

As you go through it, rather than at the outset of the programme, I would say.

Are there any other factors, Gavin, that you—?

Yes, I think there's still work to be done in terms of getting the message out there. There are still misconceptions out there. I would suggest that we've got groups of parents who are extremely interested in their child's schooling and yet we still have parents who think that the WBQ qualification has elements of the Welsh language, which they do not want in addition to the compulsory Welsh that's already on their timetable. And there are still misconceptions like that that are out there. But I do—

Why are those misconceptions out there? What's causing that?

Well, despite the PR that goes out in terms of the national roll-out, the messaging about what the WBQ award is about, you can't force people to accept the right message, I suppose. So, we do a lot of work to make sure that the right messages are reinforced in school, but that's an audience that is outside of school, and I would argue that there's still work to be done, not just with parents but employers. But we've also seen adverts now for jobs that feature WBQ, which is a really positive step.

That's the real test. What about the compulsory nature of the qualification? Do you think that embeds value or does it do the opposite?

Well, when you say 'compulsory' I think you're opening a bit of a can of worms. I don't think the subject is compulsory, although that can be the narrative. So, when you're challenged on it, the phrase 'universal adoption' is then rolled out, and that's not quite the same as the subject being compulsory. So, this has been a real difficult issue for some schools in certain aspects—

So, should it go further than universal adoption and actually be compulsory?

Well, for me, I think the qualification certainly is a defining feature of Welsh education. I think the skills that it develops will assist all learners, so, yes.

And what about the perception of employers? Do they value and understand it, do you think?

Again, my experience of that is that it's mixed. We bring some employers in to help resource the delivery of aspects of the course, which is tremendous because we benefit and employers get a feel for the skills that they've long been asking schools to develop so that children are ready for the workplace, but it's not consistent.

Okay. And do you have consistent dialogue with employers on it?

Yes, we do. We do, but it's like parents, isn't it? You can only engage with those who are willing to engage with you. And for those who are willing to engage with you, you put a lot of effort and time into delivering that message of how valuable the qualification is, and nine times out of 10 you're very successful in that dialogue.

But only those you're in touch with.

But any extra publicity and resourcing of it—and that has improved dramatically from the early pilots, but any extra—

Is there anything else that can be done to improve employers' perceptions?

I think it's engaging with the organisations around the different employment categories and sectors—it would all bring added benefit. That would help us tremendously, and I think that, for us, it is very much perceived by most schools as key stage 4 is completely compulsory, and that word is more widely used at key stage 4. I think the difficulty arises with key stage 3 and the conflicts sometimes with some parents and some pupils between valuing the qualification, particularly those very academic students, with their argument of, 'They don't need this because they're doing four or five A-levels; they're heading for Oxbridge or the top Russell universities.' And whilst our argument still is that it's still a very valuable qualification for those individuals as well as all the others, it is sometimes a difficult conversation that you have to have on a one-to-one individual basis with those parents and pupils.

The word 'compulsory' is a very interesting one. We have come across cases of parents who have contacted the Welsh Government and demanded to know why the Welsh bac was compulsory, to be told by Welsh Government officials, 'It's not.'

No, it's universally—

Yes, we get letters about that as a committee, actually, as well.

And that really cuts the ground under the feet of heads who are trying to do something they think is a really important part of the Welsh education scene—

Because universality and compulsory are two different things.

Yes.

And, finally, just coming back to where you left off, Jane: universities, are they improving their knowledge and value of the Welsh bac or—? Is this happening?

From a very, very slow start, we had a very rapid improvement. I would say that's probably plateaued a bit now. So, the change in personnel within universities, maybe that currency of it hasn't been maintained—not so much in Wales, but certainly in England.

I agree. I think the new robust specification for WBQ, with the grades, has been extremely helpful— well, the universities demanded it, didn't they? My personal experience of a 22-year-old, or 21-year-old, who is in university, he actually got his place, I think, on the strength of his WBQ qualification in combination with his other A-levels. So, I've invested in tangible experience of the value of WBQ, and anecdotally too. He's picked up aspects of his courses, in terms of structure of projects that he's needed to produce, that he's been able to structure using skills that he developed through WBQ. 

Okay.

And I concur. I've a 28-year-old who's now in teaching herself, and, in fact, is a Welsh bac co-ordinator herself in one of our schools. But, you know, a three A offer at Cardiff Law School was changed to an offer of an A and two Bs.

So, just to wrap up—

Quickly, please, Hefin.

—this understanding and value is expanding, in your views.

It is expanding, yes.

Okay. Thank you. The next questions, then, are about how rigorous the qualification is, and the first ones are from Dawn.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning. You said in your evidence that you did regard the WBQ as an equivalent and rigorous qualification, but there was a mixed view on that. Why was there a mixed view? Was it because it was mixed around those schools, or those teachers, who aren't teaching Welsh bac? Was there a difference between them in terms of the response you had from members?

Yes, I would definitely say that those who have been involved, heavily involved, in the delivery and assessment and promotion of the qualification will see how that robustness has developed over the years, and how now it is really comparable with—albeit different to a traditional A-level, but the robustness is there. Those who are less exposed, and those headteachers who maybe haven't had the exposure to that, maybe perceive it slightly differently.

They wouldn't have the same level of understanding of it, maybe.

Yes.

Would that—?

Yes. I concur with that, and I would probably add, as well, that one of the big differences that people need to accommodate is the fact that it's not a content-heavy course, and traditional A-levels will be full of subject content, so it's different. But I think those—as Jane has quite rightly said—who are involved in delivery understand how powerful the qualification can be in terms of its skills development, and how, actually, that can assist the aspirations of learners who can deploy those skills in other subject areas too, and beyond.

Yes. Okay. And you concur with that?

Yes.

Can I just ask you, then, because you touched on the equivalence of the qualification, and, again, would it be the same in terms of those involved with the bac and those not—there would be the views around whether this qualification carries the equivalent weight, particularly at key stage 4 and post 16? Would that be—?

Yes, definitely. I think if you've got somebody in a school who is very pro the Welsh bac and the delivery and the value of it, you will still have individual teachers in that school who have had no experience of delivering, no experience of the assessment protocol, et cetera, and therefore will concentrate, as Gavin said, on the high content, say, in an A-level chemistry, for example, and will say, 'Well, there's just no comparison.' But I go back again to the national mission and our whole purpose now in education, which, as Gavin said, from the employers' push, is that of developing those skills that they need in employment, and teachers are beginning to realise the huge value of it.

Absolutely. And you both agree with that. Okay. Just one question I wanted to ask about the onus on teachers and learners. You talked about that the content is currently too onerous in many areas, particularly the level of maintaining records and the work that can be really excessive for both students and teachers. What do you think the potential impact of that is if we don't actually address that particular concern that you've got?

That's an interesting one, because there's a tension in schools at the moment over the fact that all the work now is required to be submitted digitally, which I think has a lot of logic, of course. We've got digital natives growing up in our schools, who will be familiar with nothing else and will expect nothing else, but the strain that that's put on the schools logistically, when you think about the push that's been given to the amount of curriculum time, both at level 2 and level 3, is significant. So, resourcing those has been a real, real pressure for schools, particularly with the financial climate that the schools are trying to operate in. So, I actually see some real value in the way that the work is being produced and assessed in school in terms of its style, because it's done digitally, but I think that that has been quite a difficult aspect in terms of resourcing for schools.

So, would the answer to that—? Well, what would be the answer to that in terms of how you could reduce that burden, really?

I think there's a lot of duplication, and the current system, with three challenges plus the extended project—actually, there's an awful lot of repetition in there and you could easily take it down to two challenges and make those two, if you like, a little bit more rigorous each, so that you wouldn't lose anything in terms of the quality, but you'd just reduce the volume.

Yes, I can see that. Yes, okay.

Okay, thank you.

Julie Morgan.

Thank you. Good morning. I think we've already sort of touched on this, about what university and employers think, but do you have anything more to say about whether universities and employers consider it as an equivalent to GCSEs and A-levels?

I think, really, that it's only A-levels that universities would even think about as equivalents. And I think, really—. What I said earlier is that it's certainly improved—the perception of the universities— for quite a while. I think it has now plateaued and I do think we need to re-educate the universities about the change in the qualification and how much the rigour has improved and how much equivalence we can pay to that investigation now, which is substantial, and is of huge benefit to individual pupils to take to universities for interviews, et cetera, very much in the way that the investigations in England and their students are doing the same. So, I think there's still work to be done in that area.

I think there's also some confusion over, particularly, university offers, because I think, when the Welsh bac first came out, there was an expectation that you'd be asked for, say, two Bs and the Welsh bac. But, actually, what tends to happen is that the offer is adjusted because the Welsh bac is there and it isn't specifically mentioned. And then, sometimes, if the student hasn't quite met the grade, but has the Welsh bac, they would be accepted. So, it isn't a picture that is very easy for people to look at and go, 'Oh, well, that's the result.' But, actually, we, in schools, see the result of the Welsh bac in terms of the student's potential for getting a place.

It's a definite help for them.

Absolutely.

Yes. No question.

Yes. And Jane, you said that universities should be re-educated. Who should be doing that?

Welsh Government, possibly. [Laughter.] I think WJEC are doing their best, but I think they need to—. You almost become a little bit complacent, so I think the re-educating and the re-engagement with universities on behalf of the exam board, Qualifications Wales and Welsh Government—I think it's a three-pronged attack that is needed, really, just that re-engagement with them, which was done a good couple of years ago now, but it's the re-education of the changes of the Welsh bac and how much more rigorous it is. I think our difficulty is exactly as Tim said: you can't quantify for universities the effect of the Welsh bac, because of those very things that Tim said. You can't put a figure on how many universities have offered x number of places based on the Welsh bac, because it's not as we first perceived it might be of, 'Get two A-levels, plus the Welsh bac, and that's your offer.' It's no longer like that. And, even at interview stage, the value of what the candidates can display to the interviewer as a result of what they've done in the Welsh bac—so, it will be a topic of conversation, they can talk about their investigations and the wider things that they've done as a result of the qualification, and that makes a difference to whether or not they gain a place, but that's not easy to quantify. 

I think the WBQ is a qualification that Wales should be very proud of, so let's be bold about selling that and making a really big push—a reinvigorated push—for it. I suppose one of the tests might be when learners start talking about three A-levels plus WBQ, and then start talking about, actually, WBQ plus three A-levels.  

Yes, thank you. 

Suzy, did you have a supplementary on this? 

Yes, just to test the enthusiasm, initially, that you said having a bac can be the difference between being accepted or not accepted if you haven't quite made your grades, and I'm sure that is true, but is there any evidence at the moment as to which universities and which courses that affects, because, of course, there are courses that need filling, and if you've got a bac, that might be an excuse to get you on to course, if I can put it that way? 

My observation there, very quickly, would be that the schools end up developing their own expertise in knowing areas of subject experience in universities across the UK, and also now in school have a feel for where WBQs are accepted more than others, and how that institution's value of the WBQ will be different from the university in a different city. So, we end up developing that kind of experience just from the experiences of the sixth formers who apply and then subsequently go to university. There's not a central resource for that kind of information, and sometimes what universities say, dare I say, perhaps isn't what they necessarily do in terms of how they handle the WBQ as a qualification. 

You can't label a university either, because it will be different faculties within the university. 

No, we picked that one up. Sorry, I don't want to take any more time but, okay, thank you for that answer. 

Thank you. Julie. 

Do you think that the skills learned in skills challenge Cymru can be learnt in other general or vocational qualifications? Do you think there is anywhere else that you can learn those skills? 

My experience is that there are some subjects that will make very good use of some of the key skills that are coming out and being developed in WBQ, and benefit hugely, but some of those subjects aren't taken by all learners. I can think, for example, of a business studies course at GCSE that would benefit greatly from, I don't know, the presentation skills that learners might be developing in WBQ. As part of their course, they will be asked to carry out a presentation in front of audience, but we'll only have 60 learners out of 240 doing that business studies course. So, I think one of those strengths of the WBQ qualification is it's an opportunity for all to be learning these key skills.

I would certainly concur. You have got subject areas that naturally develop some of the skills, but you haven't got that all-encompassing equality for all our learners to have access to that. So, if the WBQ wasn't there, or skills challenge Cymru wasn't there, there would definitely be groups of pupils who wouldn't have that opportunity to develop skills. 

Right. So, it is a unique qualification. 

Yes. 

Thank you. I think we've covered the last—. 

Thank you. Suzy. 

Yes. Just to save a little bit of time here, if I say that ASCL are generally supportive of the bac but have concerns because of wander across the border, and perhaps the risk to sixth forms, would I be summing up your concerns about it pretty accurately? 

Yes, I think the cross-border thing is a real issue, particularly for schools that are in that border region. Again, it is about perceptions. We have lacked in recent years a real drive centrally to say to people, 'This is not just an imposition on students; this is something that really benefits them.' Individual schools will try and get that message across, but it's all gone a little bit flat, centrally, in terms of reinforcing that.  

You can see where I'm going with this then, because my question, effectively, is: there's supposed to be universal adoption by next year, would it be fair to say that schools, and indeed, colleges, are nowhere near ready for universal adoption? And I don't mean 'compulsory'; there are some schools that are either not interested or not geared up for this. 

No, I don't necessarily think—and I speak as somebody who has worked in an authority that has been severely affected by it in Powys—it's the lack of desire to engage in it for universal adoption. I think it is the competitive nature of those schools and colleges across the border that publicly promote the fact, 'Come to us, you don't need to do the Welsh bac.' They've got the money and the resources to throw at that sort of publicity. Shrewsbury College did it, and I lost sixth formers from my previous school where I was head because they threw that money at it. Now, the only way we can counteract that—. Well, there are two ways. One is with that increased education and vigour of publicity and support for the Welsh baccalaureate, but the other is the freedom, if you want, for headteachers to have those individual conversations with pupils at post 16, as to whether or not it is compulsory, or whether it's—

Well, yes, it's the universality, or universal adoption, I should say, rather than the compulsory  element of that. I suspect that if universal adoption is not achieved, then there might be a risk of it being made compulsory, and I don't get any sense, not just from your evidence, that the whole of Wales is ready for it to be adopted universally. 

You mentioned, Jane, that your proximity to the border caused a problem, but do you think that geography does have a place in why individual schools have chosen to adopt the bac or not, or is that an irrelevance, really?

I think it's been a significant influencing factor, and because places affect your budget. And that is quite a dramatic effect in many schools. I think, as well, with FE colleges, there is no compulsion yet for them to do it. 

Well, there isn't on anyone. There's no compulsion, but there's a lot of choice that's been felt to be compulsory.

Yes. I think the FE colleges are cashing in on that, and that is what is—. But, yes, certainly, it does depend on the geographical area in which you—. It's more prevalent in some areas than in others. 

So, if the school has no competition, it's more likely to do that bac. Would that be—? I think you mentioned Powys. I'm thinking of Ysgol Bro Hyddgen, where it's—

Yes, Bro Hyddgen, Welshpool, Crickhowell—

But it's miles to go to anywhere else. So, it's that or nowhere. 

But I was in Llanidloes and it's miles to go to Shrewsbury. But they would rather have the hour on the train, or some would—it's minimal, but some would rather have that hour on the train than do the Welsh bac at that stage. And I worked really hard to counteract that, and won many back, but it is difficult. 

Can I ask—? I'm sorry, for space and time, I'm going to miss you out, Gavin, if that's all right. Tim, would that be a fair reflection of what your members generally say, because, obviously, you have more of a geographical spread?

The regional variation is significant— 

And why?

The further you are from the border, the less pressure you're feeling from institutions across the border trying to pull students away from Wales. 

Yes. Okay. 

Jane, can I just go back to what you said about headteachers needing the freedom to have the conversations with young people and parents? Can you just elaborate on that, please? What do you feel you need that you haven't got now?

I suppose, going back to something Tim said earlier, it's that telephone call to Welsh Government where they say, 'No, it's not compulsory.' That really takes the carpet from underneath our feet. We, as headteachers then, are having to go down the route of, 'Look, it is compulsory in our school; this is what we think and this is what we think would benefit your pupils.' Now, that actually conflicts with some headteachers' perception of are we taking away the rights of our students to their choice of their career and their education provision post 16. And this is only really post 16 that we're talking about here. Because I will have no hesitation in saying that my school universally adopts the Welsh baccalaureate, and even though there are post-16 pupils who might not complete the qualification, and might not finally be entered, or we might pull them from the entry because of the pressures of other subject areas, or the pressure on their own personal circumstances or whatever, I will have those difficult conversations, but some heads are reluctant to have those difficult conversations with parents because, in their words, 'It opens the floodgates.' How do you justify the amount of time it takes, as a headteacher, to have those conversations with one parent and then justify, where you come to a decision that it's right for that individual pupil not to do the Welsh baccalaureate—and I'm not just talking about the gifted and talented here and our Oxbridge and top Russell universities, I'm talking about generally—and then justify to another parent who will say, 'But you've allowed x pupil, why aren't you allowing y pupil to do it?' I think the only way that that can be supported is to try and increase the universal adoption across Wales.

Thank you.

I was going to add that I know that in our area—we're a city school, basically—eight schools are currently offering post-16 provision. We've got an agreement across all the schools that is consistent about where WBQ sits in our offer. So, whilst there's no tension between institution and institution, I would arguably say we've got a really healthy policy. When the policy is tested by a parent who doesn't wish their child to be subjected to that policy and they take it beyond us, then that really does come back with a real problem for us, because there's no compulsion for that child to be following that qualification when they really test it. 

Okay, thank you. Siân, you had a supplementary. 

Yes, I'm just interested to know where the most resistance comes from. Is it from the most talented and able, or the parents of—the ones who perceive their children to be?

If we're honest, it does tend to be, yes. 

Is it the pupils themselves or just their parents, though?

I think a lot of it comes from parental pressure. 

Is that a perception that they're not going to get into Oxbridge or whatever?

What their argument often is is that it takes away from their ability to give 100 per cent to the three or four or five A-levels that they're doing that they need the absolute top qualifications for. That detracts from their time, which they need to give to those to be able to get the qualifications to get in.

What do you say back to that, then?

That the skills that they get and the experience that they get are going to give them the edge on other people who are in competition with them.

Certainly, we know from discussions with students who have left, gone through university and come back, but also discussions with the university professionals who teach them, that the value that they place on students who have gone through the Welsh bac is significant, because they can see those extra skills, that extra level of confidence, and an ability to cope with working with others in terms of doing presentations—all those things that are a little bit nebulous but actually are terribly important to success. 

Thank you. Janet, brief questions, please. 

Do you think the Welsh bac should be optional for certain groups, such as those following vocational routes or more able and talented pupils?

No.

For me, I think the skills are useful for all. I would certainly advocate that it's there for everybody. 

Okay. To what extent are learners choosing to study in institutions in England to avoid studying the Welsh bac, and what impact does that have?

I think we've covered that one.

Have we covered that? Yes, and we've done the other one. 

Okay, thank you. Michelle. 

Good morning. What effect is the Welsh bac having on the curriculum at key stage 4?

It has inevitably narrowed the choice, but that's not quite the same thing as narrowing the curriculum. When I first became headteacher, it was normal for there to be a core of plus six options. It is now unusual to have five options. Some will be on four or less. So, there has been that impact. You have to balance that against the benefits of doing the bac and what they gain.

Certainly, in our experience, in terms of managing curriculum time, there are competing demands on curriculum time, whether it be aspects of core provision and the thirst amongst pupils and parents for an opportunity to diversify in subject areas. You want a good spread of subjects. We need to be developing interesting and diverse young people to come through. So, schools will instinctively, I think, resist a narrowing of the curriculum, and that's difficult, actually, when things are cascaded into a school for it to adopt. But, there could be good reason for it too.

I would say it's had an impact on the hours that are given to core—in our case, not core, but certainly in options—. We were discussing before we came in that, historically, as a deputy in charge of curriculum, we would have had four options on, and now most schools are on four or three as opposed to the five that we maybe started with a while ago. And the hours that we give—we're on a fortnightly timetable and the hours that we now give to an option are five, because we have given increased hours to the core with the extra demands for Welsh, for religious education and for the expectations with the performance measures for English and maths, obviously. So, therefore, our hours now at an option basis are five hours a fortnight, whereas I can remember having six or even seven in years gone by. 

Okay. Thank you. You've already touched upon the further education institutions not making the Welsh bac compulsory and how that acts as a draw to students. What impact is that having on sixth-form provision? 

Some, I would say. I think schools have worked hard to reduce that impact. I would say, when it first came out, it was—in my experience, certainly—greater than it is now. I don't think it's as significant. But, I'm in a school where there's a healthy sixth form, and it is used as a reason to go to college rather than to come to us, but we work hard to combat that. 

I think we'd say the same thing. I thik we've worked very hard to make sure the messaging about provision in post 16 in school, which will include the WBQ, is a healthy message. So, I don't think you specifically just target the WBQ. I think you very often use the opportunity to dispel myths about the qualification and actually sing its real benefits. 

Is the Welsh bac having an effect on Welsh-medium education, do you think? 

The issue with Welsh-medium is the greater core that they have to provide as schools, and they are therefore more squeezed in terms of what they have to put into their core curriculum, which gives— in terms of options, then there is even greater pressure that they have. If you've got an extra subject as part of the core, or at least an extended amount of time given to that within the core—. If you're offering Welsh language and English language and all the other things that the other schools are offering, that does create an additional pressure. However, having said that, a lot of our members from Welsh-medium schools are enthusiastic about the Welsh bac and would not change it in that way. 

My current school is an English-medium school, but my previous two schools were bilingual schools where we had a large number of first-language Welsh pupils. I think the conflict of demand isn't from the Welsh bac, I think the conflict of demand is the equality between Welsh and English in those schools. And therefore, when you're planning your curriculum time in such a school, your Welsh first-language pupils and the teachers—and quite rightly so—will want equality of hours on the curriculum for Welsh first-language pupils as far as English is concerned, because they are delivering both Welsh language and Welsh literature and they therefore need the curriculum time for that. So, there is a conflict because then that time has to come from somewhere on your curriculum plan—you've only got 50 periods and they've got to come from somewhere. But I would absolutely concur with Tim that most of our—whether it be bilingual-provision schools or Welsh first-language schools, they are very, very successful with the Welsh baccalaureate. 

Okay. We are going to have to stop it there, I'm afraid, because we have run over time. Can I thank you on behalf of the committee for attending and for answering all our questions? You'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you very much. We may well write to you if we haven't covered everything. But thank you again for coming.

Okay, item 4 then is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education following up the meeting on 20 September.

Paper to note 2 is a letter from the History of Wales Campaign on Welsh history in schools.

Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding Stage 2 proceedings for the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill.

Paper to note 4: another letter from the same Minister about the administrative scheme for the childcare Bill.

Paper to note 5: a letter from the chair of Petitions Committee regarding Neath Port Talbot's fair funding petition.

And paper to note 6: a letter from the National Adoption Service, which is updating us on their review.

Are Members happy to note those? Okay, thank you.

Did you want to say—?

The situation at the moment now is that the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, following their ballot, are going to be doing an inquiry on this particular area. But given our continued focus on the curriculum on an ongoing basis, we will look at the outcome of that, and make sure that that is fed into the work that we're continuing to do on the curriculum.

Thank you.

Okay, item 5, then can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.