National Assembly for Wales

Can I welcome Members to this afternoon's meeting of the Public Accounts Committee? Can I also thank Adam Price for chairing the committee during my paternity leave absence over the Christmas period?

We've received two apologies today, from Jack Sargeant and also from Adam Price.

Members will be aware of the very sad news on Friday that our colleague Steffan Lewis sadly passed away at the end of last week. I know that he was known by all members of this committee; I had the privilege of sitting next to him on the Finance Committee and I know that I speak for all members of the committee in extending our sincere condolences to Steffan's family at this difficult time. It was Steffan's wish that Assembly business should continue as normal, so we're following through with that wish. I do, however, propose that we take a moment of reflection at the start of this morning's meeting to think about the loss of Steffan and the loss to his family.

Thank you.

Item 2 of today's committee and we have several papers to note. First of all, the Welsh Government have provided an update on the legal proceedings against Lambert Smith Hampton and Amber Fund Management for breach of contract and professional negligence. A judge has now been appointed and a timetable set, and a further update will be provided when any significant developments have been made towards resolving the matter. Happy to note that letter? Good.

Secondly, following the technical briefing we received from the Welsh Government on 12 November with regard to community safety in Wales, the Government have provided the following information, which answers the suggested questions contained in the briefing for the session. The Welsh Government will provide updates on the programme in June and November. Happy to receive those updates as and when and to note the information? Okay.

Turning to the scrutiny of accounts 2017-18 and additional information from the National Museum Wales, following the evidence received as part of the inquiry, the national museum was asked to provide additional details on initiatives being implemented to address sick absence, together with details of days lost to staff sickness. We've received that information, which is on page 8 of your pack. Happy to note that?

And, the Auditor General for Wales has published his report on 'Managing the impact of Brexit on the Rural Development Programme'. That was published on 21 November. The Welsh Government has accepted both recommendations contained in the report, so, if Members are happy, we'll note the report, which the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee will now be considering as part of its current work programme.

Turning to 'The maturity of local government in use of data', the auditor general published the local government study on 6 December. This study has been added to the agenda for information and for you to note. So, that's duly noted.

Do we have any plans to do some substantive work on the performance of local government?

We've got an additional future work programme slot coming up, haven't we, so is that something we could consider at that point?

Yes, I think so. I think some work that the audit office—

Yes. I think it's a slightly tricky area for PAC, given that the accountability arrangements for local government are so different. In respect of this report, it's been targeted, in the main, at local authorities themselves. We've provided each authority with a separate local report as well, but obviously, it's a matter for the committee how it chooses to follow up any of our reports, but you would have to be mindful of that distinction in the accountability arrangements for anything pertaining to local government. 

Okay. Bearing that in mind—thank you for that.

Okay. The Auditor General for Wales published his report on fiscal devolution in Wales on 21 November. There were a lot of publications just before Christmas, during my period away. The Welsh Government have now replied to the auditor general. Are we happy to note the report, which the Finance Committee will be considering as part of its current work programme? Good.

Item 3, and the NHS Wales Informatics Service. We've received the Welsh Government's response to our committee's report. We've also got a letter from the Auditor General for Wales. I will ask Members for their view on that response shortly, but certainly, as far as I can see, I think I wouldn't be wrong in saying that it falls short of what we would expect. Auditor general, did your office have anything you wanted to add?

Nothing further to the written response I've provided to committee, but I'm obviously interested in how Members respond to that.

It seems to me that the response we've received is fine as far as it goes, but it's pretty much saying it's business as usual and we just need to make sure that, where we've gone wrong before, we put it right. But, of course, that's not ensuring that we will actually see those improvements. Do Members have any comments themselves? I propose we go back to the Welsh Government and I can represent the committee's concerns and just ask that we do want—

There is an update, Chair, is there not, shortly around this from Welsh Government? Or is this it?

They promised a further update in a few months' time, yes. 

That will be coming to us for us to—.

Yes. I think I'm correct in saying that the thrust of the committee's concern was about pace and action, so I think it's important that you keep a focus on that. 

So, I suggest that we write back to the Welsh Government and ask for updates as and when and just seek assurances that there will be the improvement in pace.

Yes. I made a number of specific suggestions for points that you should flag with the Welsh Government in my advice note to you.

So, in that regard, from Welsh Government's perspective, six months' time in regard to that pace—are we saying that we want to go through those specifics prior to that six-monthly update?

Well, we've got the Plenary debate anyway coming up on 30 January, I think. So, that'll be an opportunity to recognise positive moves, and also to highlight any concerns. But we can certainly invite them back in then.

Okay, but we're definitely going to get six-monthly updates on progress. Is that right?

That's certainly what I want to ask for.

Well, it's what we recommended, and they've accepted it, so we can assume that's going to happen.

We'll hold them to that. 

If Members are happy, I move Standing Order 17.42 to exclude the public from the meeting for business items 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9. Content? Content.