National Assembly for Wales

Roger, go for it.

Just picking up on Roger's point, I think the way that that funds look at the return for Wales as perhaps sometimes too narrow—it looks at it very much on a project-specific basis, so it looks at traditional film recruitment. What's our position in the back end? If the film makes money, will we make money? Actually, there's a cultural, a wider sector consideration, to look at the number of heads of department that are being employed that are actually Welsh, or resident in Wales; to look at, in a sense, the broader legacy of a project in terms of building a Welsh company rather than just specifically the project. Because we've found that we've discussed a couple of projects with the Pinewood team, and actually, in a sense, we've moved away from being able to progress the conversation, because actually it was like going to a fund in London. The terms—the financial recoupment terms—were quite aggressive from a financial point of view. In some cases, some other financiers were saying, 'Well, we can't remain at the table if those terms are being sought'. It just seems, as a Welsh producer trying to grow the sector here, a shame that there weren't other ways of looking at what's the return for Wales.

And you think that because that's obviously associated with Welsh Government, that there's a fundamental flaw there, perhaps, because obviously if you're just looking at it from a market perspective, you're not looking at where it lies, which is in a nation.

Yes, but I think as well—and I completely understand why—if you set up a fund that's spending state money, I completely understand why an organisation like Pinewood would be a part of that, to assess it with pure commercial considerations, but actually a lot of producers in Wales are looking to get to the point where they can engage on those terms, and we need help to get to that point. I don't think there's any shortage of ability in Wales, or potential or skills. It's just simply that we are often at the back of a queue and sometimes slightly mystified as to why we're at the back of the queue.

I was just going to add, on the point about the media investment fund and those commercial terms, it doesn't apply broadly to the Welsh Government support because, obviously, Welsh Government also gives support through the creative industries side. We've had support on that, but they were with projects where those projects could have gone to other parts of the world, and we were given non-recoupable finance to make sure that that work came to Wales. That was hugely appreciated and was the reason why those projects did come to Wales in the end. So, I think all the answers are out there for how it should be done; it's just fine-tuning. It seems to me that the will is there. 

Okay. Suzy. 

Just briefly, I don't need a lot of an answer—just a 'yes' or 'no' really. Have any of you had funding through the Wales screen fund? 

No. 

No. 

That's great, thanks. Diolch. 

There seems to be a general issue with communication and information, and understanding of what funding there is available and what these bodies and organisations do. There seems to be several ways to access money, but it's like a labyrinth; you have to work your way out. Having contact with these people is really difficult. There are barriers to entry unless you know the right people. I've been fortunate enough; my company has been supported by the British Film Institute and Film Cymru Wales on a company support level, and via this fund, through the BFI, that's exposed me to the film industry decision makers who hold that pot of money in London. Without that access, I wouldn't be progressing as a company I don't think, and my focus is film or has been documentary film, and I'm trying to diversify into drama. But the Pinewood fund, or the MIB, has never been something that I've looked to because I've never really been able to access it. Anecdotally, I've just thought that other people's experience has meant that I shouldn't even bother. 

I think the BFI have laid out their criteria quite clearly on how they assess each production, and, with the digital landscape, that's disrupted film and television. And so, these funds need to be assessed on what the platform is, because film doesn't just sit in cinema any more; it sits across all platforms. There's the issue of diversity, which is completely lacking in any of these funds when they're being assessed, and also the cultural impact, as we've discussed. My company is very much focused on new talent and unrepresented voices from BAME communities, and this is not supported, as far as I can see, in any of the funds across Wales. And we also have a flexible, female-focused work ethic, an environment to retain women in the industry as well. These funds don't—. There are no funds that support any of the work that we do. So, from a company point of view, what would be good is that if there was slate support, so company support to help us get these productions, which could have commercial potential to this point where we could go for a bigger kind of funding pot. And, also, individual production support as well. 

Cool. Mick Antoniw.

I just want some clarification there about what you were saying. You're saying that Wales is often at the back of the queue when it comes to some of these projects, and that seemed to be put within the context of how the investment, the MIB, was actually being, or the criteria for it—. I wonder if you could just elaborate on that. 

I think, in a simple sense, if you're administering a fund where all the judgments are taken on a commercial basis, if a producer comes to you with a CV as long as your arm, who's worked with international talent all over the world, and they're seeking finance, and they'll say, 'Well, we'll do some filming in Wales', they become a priority because it's an easier deal to do. You probably find, you'd often find, with a Welsh producer, that they may have done less; they may not have worked with huge on-screen talent from across the planet, so they will be, in pure commercial terms, a higher risk. But is that a reason to not give finance in that way? That's the question. But I don't think it can be, or I don't think it should be, a pure, pure commercial consideration. There should be a broader cultural consideration that, actually, if you get that right, all it is is that it's still a commercial consideration, it's just taking the long view rather than the short-term view, and to date I think most funding awards are on a project basis. 

So, would you say that it's basically too restrictive and too inflexible?

Yes. I mean it's fantastic to have world-leading producers coming into Wales. We all want to see that continue, but we need to ask what's the legacy of that. You look at other countries like New Zealand where, if you want to access certain subsidies in New Zealand, the company coming in needs to go into a formal co-production with a New Zealand-based company. So, as a result then, the producers in that country, their skills base is increased, the profile of indigenous producers is increased, and slowly they develop their own strong film industry. For such a small country, New Zealand has had some staggering success. But I think it's because they've been quite canny about how they do it. There's also a very close relationship in New Zealand between New Zealand film funding and the tourist board, because they recognise that every time a mountain or a beach or a whale is in a film or a tv series, people want to go to New Zealand. It's really, really joined up. 

We've all watched the repeats of The Lord of the Rings. But is there a comparator? For example, Ireland, which is also competing very much in the same way, I presume have similar funds and so on. How are these funds operated differently? What is it that makes a fund more successful in the way it's operated by other countries than in Wales?

Well, I know that Ireland manages a very attractive tax break; I think it's like 33 per cent, compared to the British one that is 25 per cent against UK spend. So, that helps them in Ireland and, actually, they're having a bit of a golden age in terms of the number of productions that are coming out of Ireland. Scotland too have recently announced—the Scottish Government have announced investment into indigenous growth, really. I think it's an annual £4 million pot for the development of Scottish films by Scottish producers. I don't know if they have to be set in Scotland, but it's Scottish intellectual property. So, there are, just within these isles, different approaches. I don't know if Wales has the competency, as I call it, for raising or doing a tax break for film, but we certainly have the competency to do what Scotland are doing with their £4 million fund. And, actually, if you compare it with the total available funds through Ffilm Cymru, which is £1 million a year for everything, including their development pot, their production pot, their company support offer, their audiences—

Education.

—education. It's spread very thinly and they do an incredible job with very scarce funds. They have knowledge; they have industry links and they know the Welsh producer, director and writer talent, and I think, so far, they've been overlooked in terms of Welsh Government's engagement with film.

The Irish Film Board have a much bigger budget, compared to Ffilm Cymru Wales. Ffilm Cymru Wales, I think, have supported all of us here—

Yes. I think we're probably all here, in a sense, because of them.

Yes, and I've previously made Welsh-language, or at least bilingual, films that have got a lot of Welsh in them, and if I just went out to a commercial market, there's no way I would have got the support without Ffilm Cymru Wales. And we haven't spoken about language. We haven't made any feature films. I think we've had Patagonia and that wasn't in the Welsh language. The last feature drama—

We did one.

Yr Ymadawiad, yes, you did one.

As producers, you always look first at home, so you look at the landscape in Wales, and then you look across the UK. Sometimes there are funds you can go directly to, or there are producers in other parts of the UK who you can partner with, and by partnering with them, you can then access additional pots of money.

Thank you, Chair. In regard to your view on the sufficiency of, for instance, cinema space, is that really an issue for you or is that just a non-entity?

Cinema space? Do you mean access to cinema or the number of screens?

Number of screens, I would presume.

I don't think that's a—. People's ability to consume the product that we make, whether it's in a cinema on an iPhone or whether it's—

It's not an issue.

It's not an issue, no.

Okay, so you've mentioned Ffilm Cymru, and in terms of the diminution of its status, what would be the ideal for that? Obviously, you'd like more money, but in terms of a structure for what it does, is it fit for purpose and, if not, what would be the optimum?

I think, for all film makers in Wales, when you start out, you go to them first, because that's what they're set up for. My relationship with them goes back about 10 years, and they've always been terrific. They've been brilliant at making important introductions. The job we brought last year to Wales—the Netflix job with Gareth Evans—was a big, big film project for us and, really, the ball was set in motion, was set rolling, because of an introduction that Ffilm Cymru Wales made.

So, is it worth strengthening?

Massively. We had some company support in 2014 from them—a £60,000 award and a number of other companies did. In Ireland, you've seen policies, where companies have had year-on-year support at a higher level. So, if, for instance, you track the development of a company like Element in Dublin, they started making films that nobody outside of Ireland was really seeing much of, but they were a quality outfit. And then, 10, 15 years later, they're getting Oscar nominations. You know, they make—

So, in terms of its status, it would be greatly beneficial if it could be further strengthened in whatever capacity. Obviously, we are living in times of cuts to the Welsh budget, and those are going to continue, but in terms of our creative factor and the willingness in Wales to do more, you believe that that's very much worth doing, yes?

We've got so much expertise there at the coalface.

Okay, good, and we don't want to lose that expertise.

I think it's important to understand that, with our industry, it's the development period, in which you're actually having to invest money and develop an idea and bring the skills in, that's where our risk is, and it's for these small companies to invest our money. And with the help of Ffilm Cymru Wales, that's where they help, with the development process, to get something from a concept into development, and then into production, where you can actually try and finance your idea. So, it's really crucial to the life-cycle of a film and television series that we have support at the development stage. And this is also where we can bring on new talent as well, which is, you know—

And they're also always taking the long view. They may invest in a project sometimes where they may think that, actually, the chances of immediate recoupment may be very, very thin, but, actually, we're investing in a filmmaker whose career is going to grow, or a group of people who, in the end, are going to create a body of work that will create jobs and will create employment.

Okay, thank you. With regard to the importance of and the support out there currently for film festivals, is this on the agenda in terms of the scale of important issues that need to be looked at? Or, again, is it not an issue?

It feels like a reflection of all these organisations that are not working together. There are small, volunteer-run film festivals, and, you know, we used to have the Cardiff film festival, or the international film festival for Wales, but I think they only ever lasted three years; there wasn't an opportunity for them to establish themselves—[Interruption.] 

[Inaudible.]—international film festival.

Yes, yes, that's right.

There's one in Aberystwyth, there's the Wales International Documentary Festival—

So, is there a need for—

One cohesive film festival that has a reputation as a film festival that you want to go to. Film makers want to go to a film festival for the market that it brings with it.

Yes. It's an opportunity, isn't it?

Yes, and I think that leads in to a need for a national cinema for Wales, like you asked before about screens in Wales.

So, you talk about it being joined up and—. 

Yes, we're a small country; everything needs to be joined up.

Would you like to see some sort of more cohesive strategy around film?

When you say 'film festivals', to me, I think the first priority is to make sure that Welsh producers are at the key film festivals, and actually to make that happen, companies have to have company support. I'm going to Cannes this weekend and, yes, it is three days in the sun, but it's wall-to-wall meetings, genuinely, and most of those meetings are about trying to start or develop relationships with international partners with a view to bringing work to Wales. So, I would almost argue that the priority for the first phase would be to get Welsh film makers to international festivals, increase the production here, increase the visibility of Wales, and then have a film festival that responds to that increasing visibility, rather than having the film festival before that visibility is really there.

The Welsh Government used to have—I can't remember which department it was, but it used to have a fund to allow for international travel and accommodation and costs to be met. Half the costs were met. But I think it's kind of petered out in terms of its openness to our kinds of applications, and we can't make them any more. It was very tedious and difficult to make that application: you had to say that you wouldn't be able to go if you didn't have the money, yet you had to pay for it all in advance, not knowing whether you would get the 50 per cent back afterwards; you'd only get it after returning. And you had to say that you would see certain measurable economic outputs at the end of it, which you can't really fit into a promise. So, that's gone. It wasn't very good, but it did get me to some places. But, I think I agree with you, that it's important for us to be able to get to those festivals.

So, there is then a need to have much more of a presence in terms of international networking in order to create linkage that we can then plough back—

It's an essential part of the job.

Okay, that's very interesting. What is your response to the UK creative sector deal? Is there any comment on that?

The UK creative sector review?

The creative industries sector deal.

Sorry, I—

It's fine. I think we've addressed that.

I think there's one thing, just to mention, which is the contestable fund, which the DCMS are launching. I know there were various conversations around that, about making work that is being produced in minority languages eligible for that fund. I think it was disappointing that that is not one of the focuses of the fund. But, that aside, I think if you are making children's television, for example, I think it is a wonderful opportunity to be able to apply for that fund.

So, you think that's something that perhaps we should make representation around.

Absolutely. I think it's a missed opportunity. I think there are other areas where we could be lobbying, to do with the area of tax breaks for film. I think there's a similar argument to be made for tax breaks for work that is in minority languages or in indigenous UK languages. I think that would be a tremendous help, especially in a state where S4C's budget is frozen. If you were able to recoup a percentage in terms of a tax break, you are looking at increasing the budget of your film by, well, if it were film, up to 20 per cent. I just think it's one of those no-brainers, really, if we are to stimulate work. They are doing that for films intended for cinema release, so why not look at it for other areas of work that need to be supported?

You have to look at that from a producer's point of view. If you are a producer making drama for £400,000 an hour, it's really hard, it's really challenging. You're trying to get somewhere, and you see that producers making drama for £1 million an hour are getting a huge tax credit. From a producing point of view, you sort of go, 'Why is that happening? Isn't that widening the gap between the producers who are already up the top of the ladder and those of us trying to climb the ladder?'

I just think, very quickly, that your tariff for an S4C hour of drama would be £200,000. So, when Ed is talking about BBC network spending £1 million on an hour, S4C are competing at £200,000. So, if there are any ways to be able to inflate that money, then they'd be welcomed.

Mick Antoniw just wants to ask you a question.

I do recall that there were European grants that were available and made payable when productions took place. I think Hinterland and others—it was almost like an automatic grant that was given. Is that right? In the post-Brexit thing, will we actually be losing out further grants of money that are not being replaced?

I think the media fund—it wasn't automatic, but it was non-recoupable finance. It was hugely attractive if you could be selected for it. So, on Hinterland, we received that support on series 1 and series 3, but we didn't get it on series 2, which meant there was a big hole in the budget, which we had to solve in other ways. My personal view, just anecdotally: every festival I go to, all the producers I'm dealing with outside the UK, I'm constantly apologising for Brexit. Personally, I think it's a disgrace and it's awful and it only makes our job harder.

In terms of the creative media fund, there's a points system—

Creative Europe, yes?

Yes, the Creative Europe media fund. It's nigh on impossible, as a filmmaker, to get that if you're starting out, for the criteria for actually being able to apply for it in the first place means that you have to have a track record in film making. Then, when you actually get the application in, the points system is weighted against us—if you are from the UK—because other European countries score higher. 

Do we have any idea of what the level of funding is from Europe?

It sounds like Eurovision. [Laughter.]

It sounds like what?

Eurovision.

It's because Britain is seen as a high-level producing country, so there's no differentiation between London and Wales in that regard. So, I think there was some lobbying done by Creative Europe desks, like Judy Wadsell here in Wales, to try and get some differentiation there, but I don't think they were successful. I think it should be said that Creative Europe, although it's—. I think it's a Council of Europe fund. So, I suppose it could be accessible after Brexit if the British Government wanted that to happen, though we have form here in that we're not included in another pan-European fund, which I think—

We're out of Eurimages.

Eurimage. That's the one.

Britain opted to come out of Eurimage, which is the other European fund, and the Creative Europe fund is only secure until 2020.

Yes.

I think already there are—. I mean, anecdotally, you hear of companies that have put in very strong applications in the last 12 to 18 months and have not received any support. I mean, we received support on two series of Hinterland. The referendum in 2016—. We put in an application for a series called Craith, which we shot in north Wales last year—a near identical team, a near identical application, and nothing. It was turned down. Privately, people say, 'Well, actually, the people assessing it are teams from across the whole of Europe, and we are antagonising our friends across the water.' 

You have to, at all times, look at the commercial dividend and the cultural dividend. I think that if you just look at the commercial one, it's a dead end. I feel that as a Welsh person. We are talking about the most popular medium. You know, people consume drama, they consume these stories, all the time. I think that if, culturally, we are absent in the work that we are making, I don't understand why even this building would exist, because we are defined by that. So, I think there has to be—. I think the Welsh Government can afford to be perhaps more bullish in the way that gives money out. I mean, people are coming to you, asking for state money to make entertainment. You have to put a bloody good case for money to be spent that way. You need to see a really, really strong return. You need to be sure that that return is coming to Wales and isn't just being, sort of, promised and then it never actually arrives.

And I also think that you need to look around at companies and producers and say to yourself, 'When the subsidies dry up, who are the producers who will still be here, with their roots here, wanting to tell stories from here?' And I feel very strongly about that, because you've seen it in many countries where there have been periods where there have been funds available and a lot of people have flooded in. And that's fantastic, and that can be a win-win story for everybody. But there is often a narrative that follows that, which is that, for whatever economic reasons, the subsidies dry up and an awful lot of the people who came in went away again, and the people who will be left, probably, will be us four and a wider group of Welsh producers who are trying to create and who want to have a voice in creating a really healthy, indigenous sector in Welsh and in English.

Do you mind if I just ask you about something from your evidence? You mentioned Pinewood there. You say: 

'It should be noted that the legal fees and costs payable to Pinewood for their role in the production are comparable to the costs'

elsewhere. If the specific cost is commercially confidential, that's fine, but what were you paying them for?

You pay them to be an executive producer on the project, effectively.

Why is that important?

You pay them 10 per cent of the money that you're receiving, and those were the terms of the deal that they present to you when you first make contact. So, they say, 'If you're successful in accessing this money, there will be this percentage of the money that you receive that comes to us as a fee', and then you are required to pay Welsh Government's legal fees as well.

So, in order to get through the gates, you have to take on Pinewood as an executive producer. Is that a condition, then?

It's part of the—yes, it's part of—

It's a commercial set-up, isn't it? That's how it works.

A lot of financiers—just pure finance—when they put money into a project, would expect, in a sense, some sort of fee for the finance at the front, but it was our experience on a feature project that we shot last autumn in Wales, but without Pinewood's support, that when we discussed what their terms would be, all of the other partners, pretty much without exception, said, 'Oh, right, well, obviously, we wouldn't be able to sit alongside those terms because those terms are really onerous.'

I'd just like to echo that because I found myself in a situation where we had attracted a distributor who was investing more money than we were getting from Welsh Government in the project, and we were working with a firm of very experienced media lawyers on pulling everything together, because it's incredible—I've never signed so many documents in my life. It was a very complicated process to get all of those rights and all of those what-ifs signed off, and both those bodies—the distributors and the lawyers—said, 'We have never come across a more restrictive deal' as the one that Pinewood were pushing for on behalf of Welsh Government.

Effectively, then, if you wanted an executive producer—I can understand why you would need one, maybe—there was no choice given to you: it was Pinewood or nobody, and if you didn't take Pinewood you weren't getting through that gate.

Well, they would have to join the party. So, I think that, all in all, we must have had about five or six executive producers from different places. We worked with a company called Artists Studio, which produced a drama series called The Fall for BBC Two; S4C are executive producers. So, more or less anybody who is getting seriously involved becomes an executive producer.

That's not unusual. You know, if a financier comes, they want to make sure that the money is going to be spent properly—[Inaudible.]—that they've agree to invest in—

So, what was the onerous thing? We're not specialists in this, so—

So, in a sense, the premiums being charged on finance—the executive producer fees being charged. We had a situation, which—. I'll just say what the situation was; I don't need to make a judgment on it. We had a situation where we applied for money and, very quickly, as part of them investing, they suggested that what we should do is take the entire post production to their facility in London, and I was thinking, 'Well, we have a very healthy post-production sector in Cardiff. Surely Welsh Government money should be directing Welsh producers to use the Welsh post-production sector in Cardiff.' Practically, it wasn't going to work for us. We had a director based in Cardiff, a producer based in Cardiff; we were quite inclined to edit in Cardiff. It was a strange—. In fairness, I think that what you had was—. Just looking in from the outside as a producer, I think that, at one end, you have the Government, which has a whole wealth of cultural concerns, rightly, and then you have an organisation that is just a business. So, in fairness to Pinewood, maybe they weren't making much of a distinction between their operation in London and their operation in Cardiff, or Wales, and they were just thinking how they could move things around so it works for them. That's fine, but you have to ask, 'How do you move it around so it works for us?'

I need to just check one thing, though. Pinewood were prepared to put money into Bang and get the 10 per cent out, were they? You were talking about putting finance in, and I wasn't sure if Pinewood was putting money into your production or not.

No, it was from the MIB, from the media investment budget, but they were managing that money.

Yes.

I understand that. So, you had to persuade Pinewood it was a good idea that they would get the MIB money, but then, as a result of that, they got this executive producership.

Yes.

Okay. Does that not sound like a conflict of interest to you at all?

In general, all financiers on a film would also be credited as an executive producer. The question is when you start to look at fees, I guess, and what's appropriate. If you're making a small film at a pretty tight budget, having really, really tough finance fees and executive producer fees, you just start to think, 'This is a nonsense.' As a producer who has pushed the rock up the mountain for five years, you may only be paid £20,000. Then you look at somebody who's come in at the last minute, who's getting a cheque for £10,000 on the first day of principal, and you think, 'I wish I had their job'. [Laughter.]

Okay. Well, I think that's been very helpful evidence, actually, because, effectively, you're saying, not exclusively but partly, that that Pinewood involvement put you off applying for MIB.

Yes, but it's not a criticism of them as an organisation at all.

No, and I'm not intending to do that either. I'm just trying to work out how this works.

I just think, as well, that people who have been successful in getting MIB money—I'd like to know how much of that has actually flowed back into Wales, and what was the legacy that they left in Wales. They got the money, and then what? What was the criteria for them paying that back or—? Because I know—. The producer that I worked with: she came and made Will and that wasn't recommissioned. They came, and they left. They took the money, and they left. It was just like, 'Well—'. I don't think it's benefited, particularly, the creative economy of Wales or the skills sector in Wales. So, you know, what was the actual purpose of the media investment budget? I think it needed to be clearly defined.

They claimed that it had quite a lot of effect in real time, if you like, for carpenters and electrical people and all that sort of stuff, but I'm quite—

Which may be the case for that—[Inaudible.]

Well, actually, I want to know how serious that claim would be, myself.

Is it all right to say that—? I suppose Pinewood—a commercial company—try to make a business for their shareholders. So, they were operating within rules that they will have agreed with the Welsh Government. So, I think it's important to—. I'm not sure if the Welsh Government got the best deal out of setting that up. I don't know because I haven't seen their agreement, but from a producer's point of view, I have no experience of speaking to them. It seems that Welsh Government really, maybe, didn't get the best deal out of that relationship.

Okay. Rhianon Passmore.

Thank you. So, in that regard—and possibly we'll come back, or others will question around the MIB budget transparency around those types of issues, because I know that's a big issue—. In regard to the post production and, in a sense, the legacy and sustainability of investment staying in Wales, what actually needs to change? Because it seems daft when you say that there's this condition that we have to take our convoy down to London.

I can't say that it was—. I don't think it was a policy condition that they applied to other things. It was just that, in our case, the conversation within a week became, 'Talk to our facility in London', and I was just thinking—. In terms of the post-production sector here, it's very strong, and it could get a lot stronger. The potential is huge. We did a Netflix job last year with Welsh director Gareth Evans, and we generated £6.3 million of Welsh spend—Welsh writer, director, producer, all our heads of department, all our crew, and every single frame shot in Wales. When we went to the Welsh Government to say, 'We want you to help us bring this project to Wales', because it could go to Belgium, it could go to Ireland, it could go—they gave us some money and we asked that they make it a condition that we do all the post production in Wales.

So, in order to be able to grow our skills sector and to have much more of an indigenous sustainable community in Wales, what needs to change in terms of keeping us here and nurturing—?

I would caution against a fund—

I mean, I'm not just saying, 'Stay here', but there is some element of—

Yes. I'd caution against a fund that ties the producer's hands to spend all the money, or seven times the money or 10 times the money in Wales, which is what, I think, the Welsh Government asks for in its creative—

So, in effect, you're—[Inaudible.]

—because, almost especially on small films like documentaries, you find yourself having to co-produce with other countries, because they're very difficult commercial propositions and you have to access little pots of money in different countries. For instance, I'm lead producing a film with a co-producer in France and therefore able to access some money there, and it's always a very difficult jigsaw to put together. You have to kind of shave off the edges of some pieces to get it to fit.

So, a fund that said—like the Welsh Government fund does—that you have to spend all your money here means that you're very incompatible with co-producing in other countries.

So, there's obviously that tension.

Yes, but, I mean, with the Netflix job that we did, it was non-recoupable finance, and so we were set a target of spending £5.7 million in Wales, and in return for that, they made an award of £385,000. The £5.7 million was the target and we hit £6.3 million, so we exceeded the target, and so for that investment of £385,000, £6.3 million was spent in Wales. That project would've gone either to Ireland or Belgium had that support not been forthcoming.

Mick, did you have a question?

That being said, we see more and more successful programmes where minority languages are used. You see the Norwegian and the Danish projects that are there. Now, maybe they are successes that are the product of investment and focus on the language within the country and so on, so I fully accept that, but why is it that you think that Welsh programmes haven't quite made that break in the same way as certain other countries have? Is it because of lack of support, lack of focus historically, or is there—?

For me, I think it's a combination of those things. I think, historically, the ambition hasn't been there. I think there was a time when—this is a generalisation—there were Welsh producers who didn't feel the need to take the work outside Wales. They were running companies where they had a constant flow of production going through the companies, and, in 2010, when S4C was looked at rigorously and austerity hit and they took that big reduction in the budget that they had, I think producers were forced to look at—. That isn't a bad thing, because it was like a shock to the sector, where you went, 'Right, we need now to be more proactive and we need to go out there and we need to take our stories across borders.' That was always a frustration of mine when I was just writing and I wasn't producing, because I thought, 'The work we're doing here is really good, but it's only going to be seen on S4C,' in terms of drama. Since then, we've seen Hinterland, which Ed was responsible for, of course, having massive global success, and that has enabled other people to follow. So, I've followed, there's Keeping Faith, of course, and Ed's followed Hinterland with Craith. 

We are pushing to get out there, but we have to look at the reality of the Scandinavians, for example, who support each other in the work that they are doing, and they invest in each other's dramas. We don't have that. In terms of Welsh language, we are relying on S4C, who are trying to maintain a television service that starts with children's programmes at six in the morning and keeps going until 11 o'clock at night. They are trying to do more with digital. They are trying to make their mark on all these platforms, but the income that they have to spend on all of that is frozen and, in real terms, therefore, falling. My income as a writer—I haven't had an increase in the fees that I get for S4C work since 2010. So, in real terms, it's difficult.

I think it's important that we're all internationally focused as well. That's what we aim for. But that brings challenges as well, because, whilst BBC Wales and S4C want to create content—and it's all about creating content—that competes, that can be shown on Netflix and Amazon and be brought internationally, that brings with it a much higher price tag in terms of production, because your production values have to be that much higher to compete, even in short form. We were talking about the tax credit, and in order to get that, you know, you have to be spending over £1 million, but the type of productions that we're making are still expected to compete in an international market and go out there, go and meet the sales agents and the distributors and say, 'We're going to create something that competes on that level, but we're just going to do it on a third of the budget.' We can't possibly sustain that, you know, and we're talking about longevity here, and we need to think long term—supporting these companies, supporting the individual projects and creating a sustainable economy and livelihoods, because this, for us, is personal, at the end of the day, as well. It's not just about the wider economy. We have to live, and we're being crushed and expected to do things on a lower and lower budget, whilst competing in an ever more competitive market. We need the Welsh Government support, especially if it's in Welsh, in the Welsh language. 

Hinterland has done really well, but the version that sells well is the English-language version; let's not be under any illusion here. Bang is doing well, again, as a bilingual production, but, if it had been in English, it would be having twice, three times the sales. So, the onus is being put on us to create the content on tiny budgets, supported by—I have to say S4C are actually really supportive of the ideas from concept. I'm not taking broadcasters to task here, but it's S4C who take the risk and give us the money to develop the scripts, then people come in a little bit later when the risk is less or we've paid for that initial process. It is for the Welsh Government to support us in taking Wales to an international audience.

Just going back, just briefly, to one earlier point about whether all the money should be rolled into a single new fund or stuff, I think S4C and BBC Wales, certainly in the last few years, have engaged hugely, through Hinterland and a number of other projects, with the local sector. I think it would be great if Ffilm Cymru Wales's role was significantly bigger than it is, but I think also there's room for a separate fund as well, because it is important that all these editorial decisions aren't funnelled through, in the end, one or just one or two organisations. It's important that, if S4C turn a project down because, editorially, it doesn't work for them, there's somewhere else we can go. Otherwise, all the Welsh language content on the planet is being determined by an editorial team—who are brilliant—at S4C, but, sometimes, somebody might want to make something in Welsh that is hugely challenging to S4C, and it would be great to have somewhere else to go to, because I think we could actually broaden what we're making, and the quality of what we're making.

Thank you very much. This is a furiously difficult field, and so I feel for the Welsh Government in terms of how you get your money. We're now entering a rather different strategy in terms of what the Welsh Government is planning to do. The creative industries are no longer one of the key sectors, but, just looking back on it, how effective do you think it has been in focusing on the creative industries as one of the key sectors in creating the critical mass of talent at all levels of a production?

I think it's been hugely, hugely helpful. If that help were now to be removed or diminished I think it would be a spectacular own goal. Because in a sense it's not like, 'Job done, happy days; we'll look at a different area now'.

Certainly not, no.

I think the work is only just beginning if you want to actually see the indigenous sector really, really flourishing. Because in a sense—you know, people talk about the Doctor Who moment. It's fantastic, and, in a sense, going back to this, the commercial dividend was immediate. You saw all this work flooding into Wales. Fantastic. But the cultural dividend's been a very, very long time coming. That dividend is being driven by producers who are based here, and I think if, on any level, the rug was pulled from under the feet of that now, it would be appalling.

Thank you. But, if you look at the new economic action plan the Welsh Government's published, creative industries are not one of the key sectors. Tourism is one of the four foundational sectors, so that is a lever for you. But how you're going to explore that seems to me—I mean, it's a complex business. Clearly, productions in Port Talbot produce more interest in Port Talbot.

Yes. Filmmakers are used to having to, in a sense, rewrite their applications to the changing policies of funding bodies and Governments. The tourism thing is very important. There was a report at the end of Hinterland about the amount of economic boost that it had generated for Ceredigion; I can't remember the exact figure, but it was a significant figure. We're all working across the whole of Wales. We've been filming in north Wales—you've been filming in Port Talbot—we've been filming in Rhondda Cynon Taf last autumn, putting our country on screen, and I think that's important.

That's all fantastic, but the world has moved on since then, and we now have this completely globalised film and television market where we have these huge megaliths based in California, and people like the BBC are saying, 'Help. We've got to line up with ITV to somehow try and protect British culture.' So, in that context it's extremely difficult to see how Welsh Government can continue to ensure that Wales and Welsh culture continues to project itself across the world.

Going to the briefing the other day, the BBC's input into regional programming here is increasing. I think the appetite to engage with the local sector here from S4C has always been there, and from BBC Wales it is there as well. It's an international medium that we work in, so when something lands big it lands really, really big, and a good story is as likely to come from Wales as it is from any other parts of the UK. 

I think—

Just quickly, Suzy has something.

Yes, if you don't mind. When you mentioned that the support for the sector through the sectoral approach has been very good, can you explain in a few words how important you thought Creative Skillset was to the success of that approach? 

I wouldn't be—

Again, we don't have much time.

I wouldn't be able to give an answer to that which was particularly thorough, but I know that, for myself, I was somebody who benefited from Creative Skillset. I won a place on one of their training courses for producers, where they introduced us to people working in international markets. I was on two courses, actually, where they identified people who had the potential to develop their skills and develop their companies, and I was chosen for two of those. And, generally, the experiences that I had on those training courses were excellent.  

Okay, thank you. I'm not going to take it any further because Jenny's got more questions for you, but I didn't want to miss that one. Thank you. 

So, in terms of the future, assuming we still have a media investment panel advising Welsh Government, and I'm sure we will, because the Welsh Government has—. You know, this is not their area of expertise. Do you think that it's got the right skill set within this panel? 

Well, it depends who's sitting on it, because it was in Pinewood, and, you know, I've no idea who it was. You had very little communication—

So, they change all the time, do they?

It's not a decision that we're party to.

It's not something that's published that I can go and look up.

It's not publicly, no. 

No. The individuals that I'm aware of who sit on that panel are successful people from the industry. 

From the global industry. 

From the global industry, yes. 

Not from the Welsh industry. 

They are—. Some of them are. It's a blend of experience and people working in film, people working in distribution, people working on these big American juggernauts, but who have a connection to Wales. So, I think, from the knowledge that I have, the expertise is there, but they express an opinion on whether the project is one that should be supported. Where I find it problematic is what happens once they've made their recommendation, because that's when you go into the world of negotiation with Pinewood, as was, who run it from that point on. So, the recommendation from the panel that this project should be funded doesn't necessarily mean that it will receive funding.  

So, are you saying that in all cases you have to work with Pinewood if you get money from—

That's how it was. 

How it was. It's not—. Pinewood are not part of it now. 

No, okay. Obviously, these global American juggernauts, they may be good at what they do, but it doesn't seem to me that that is what the Welsh Government should be doing.  

I think the Welsh Government need to have a clear vision for what the aims of the media investment budget is for, and then set assessment criteria. This is what the BFI do. Everyone knows. It's clearly stated: 'These are our aims, this is what we want the outcomes to be, here are the assessment criteria'. You tick these boxes—you know, there's diversity, cultural impact, the platform that it's meant to be going on—and everyone knows what the vision is and what the outcomes should be. And they should be means-tested as well. If you take £2 million or £3 million, then the return should be higher, possibly. There needs to be some kind of assessment criteria that are clear to everyone, and it's a level playing field where everyone knows what the rules are.  

I think that's a very useful steer at what our recommendations might be. But, I suppose, touching on one or two other items, do you think that—? How much of whatever the Welsh Government is able to invest in film should be repayable, so that the people of Wales get a return on their investment, and how much do you think it should be non-repayable, where there's obviously a clearer implication that this is not commercial; it's culturally important, but it's not going to necessarily make—?

If the money is there to entice a big production to Wales, with an enormous amount of spend, then if the Welsh Government thinks it's worth making that non-repayable because we get it back into the economy, then that's fine. That's one way of looking at it. If it's to support an indigenous producer that has a more difficult commercial proposition and needs to help to get to it being fully financed, then make it non-repayable. So, I think there's non-recoupable and recoupable. Those can be used in different ways. 

Okay. So, it's all back to the clear assessment criteria. 

Yes.

Just the last one now, Jenny, if that's okay.

Okay. So, we've already talked to some extent about whether the studios provide value for money. Why is the market not working? When we visited Pinewood recently, it didn't look to be over full of productions. It's got one production in there at the moment, but when we asked about things going forward, there wasn't a long list. 

We've often found on productions that it's—. On the budget we're on now, it often makes more economic sense to go to a space that isn't an official studio. So, we've often built sets in a school or in agricultural buildings and made it work, and that's because, often, just purely in terms of indigenous production, it's often out of our price range. 

But if the market's working, the price comes down in the official location studio if there isn't anything else going in there. If you haven't got a full block of production going on, you lower your price in order to attract more business in. 

Maybe they don't need to because—

Because it's not their business model. We don't know what their business model is. If how they cover their overheads—. Maybe it's not commercially—. It doesn't make sense for them to have a low-budget film in their space, using all of that electricity, using all the—

They just want to keep their powder dry and wait for the big one to land and that will pay. 

Okay. Just the last question from me: we just wanted to get on the record whether you've had any intervention with Screen Alliance Wales, whether you've had any—. Do you know anything about it, or have you had any correspondence?

Is this the new set-up by Allison Dowzell?

Yes. 

I'm aware of it. I haven't yet engaged with it. 

Okay. But that's something you know that you can get involved in. 

No.

I'm actually—

You don't know. [Laughter.]

I'm aware of it, but I've had nothing to do with it. 

I'm aware of it because I Googled it, and the only trail to it is that it was once 'Bad Wolf studio something', then it was 'Bad Wolf Studio Wales something'. There are several iterations of it, and so, now, I'm not quite sure what it's purpose is and if we're meant to be engaging with it. It's all anecdotal. Allison's left the Welsh Government to—I don't know. 

Okay. I just wanted to get your view because, obviously, we'll get them in just to ask them in more detail, but we wanted to understand what you knew about it.

Yes. 

So, yes, I'll chip in first. So, I would say that this is an absolutely fantastic time to be working in or connected to the film and television industry in Wales. Before I took the job at the University of South Wales, I was working as an independent producer, working for a television company called Rondo Media in Wales, and I still also work with them on a number of projects. I know from my own experience that the last 10 years have seen a steady growth, right the way across the board, really, in terms of television production, certainly; I'm less au fait with film production. And, really, the last three years in particular represent what I think, without overstating it, is a real boom time for television production in Wales, and it also represents a fantastic opportunity to build on inward investment and opportunities created by broadcasters needing to commission more programmes from Wales, to build the profile of the sector, but also to build the talent base and ensure that, going forward, we have the right infrastructure to continue to build. I think it's a great time.

Yes, I would reiterate a lot of what Tom has said.

I came to Wales in 2010, and before that I was in Scotland, and you can hear from my accent that I'm Irish, and the perception in those regions is that Wales is obviously doing something well. When I was working with Enterprise Ireland, I worked a lot with production companies in Scotland, and a number of them would say to me, 'We should be doing what Wales is doing'. So, there is a perception outside Wales that things are happening and that there's been growth. Certainly, in the research that Ruth and I have done, we can see growth and we can see a big transition from 2010, when I arrived, to today. And you can just see that in terms of, say, the infrastructure around Pinewood and Bad Wolf, and the investment that both of those have done, but also the indigenous companies like Severn Screen and Vox Productions in terms of the kind of work they're doing, and in the infrastructure projects like Roath Lock and some of the work the public service broadcasters are doing.

Although there is a period of growth, I also think that there's more that can be done, and there are a few things that I think are important at this stage in terms of moving from being an establishing industry to being a sustainable industry, and we might talk about what sustainability might mean later on. I think it is important, like Tom has said; I think we do need a mixed ecology. I think that high-end tv is really important, but it's only one part of the picture. We also have to—and, again, my expertise will be around television production, so I'll speak more to television than to film. Proximity to decision makers is key. We've done a lot over the last couple of years in terms of reminding the BBC of the talent and reminding the other broadcasters of the talent that we have here, and I think we just need to—. We haven't won that battle, so we need to keep going with that.

And then, the key thing for me then is around labour. That's one of the areas that I research most in, and I think that there's more work to be done in terms of consolidating our labour proposition and thinking about where the skills gaps are within that. So, I think we have had a period of growth, but I still think that there are areas that need attention, as this committee seems to be interested in and keen to address.

Ruth.

I would probably echo a lot of what was said here. I think the two things I would pick up on are that we shouldn't underestimate how well regarded UK film and tv production is and how Wales can be a beneficiary of that reputation, and, at the same time, this point about a mixed ecology is really, really key. In terms of having a strategy to go from this initial period of growth to thinking about how we meet the challenges in a new environment, new distribution channels, the likes of Netflix, for example, and how we develop and meet those challenges in ways that both deliver economic and cultural benefits, that's the big challenge now. But we are in a great position to be doing that. I think this is a really strong moment. The rise of drama particularly as a genre and the reputation that Cardiff has internationally for producing drama is a great place to be starting from on this journey.

I hear what you say in relation to the Netflixes of the world, and I know we'll get into the media investment budget later, so I don't want to ask questions on that, really, but how are you expecting people to be able to get to that level if they potentially can't get the backing that they need to create a production of such high value? That's going to take a lot of investment. So, I'm just wondering, on a more principle level, what you would say to somebody who says that, from our panel of producers that we've had this morning?

Do you want to go, Tom, because the Netflix thing is something you're engaged in?

I think perhaps the mistake is thinking of it as one marketplace. I think you've got different types of production and different companies associated with production working at different levels within a global marketplace. So, Netflix, obviously, are working at one level, which is very high end, they're thinking globally, and Wales is one of a number of territories that they're seeking to invest in. They've just—literally this week, Eleven Film have started filming a new drama for Netflix in Newport. But then that also works at a number of different levels, right the way down to a factual programme that's being made for BBC Wales or a short series being made for S4C. So, I think that the investment needs to work across a whole different bunch of levels and I don't think it's as simple as thinking, 'Here are a bunch of indigenous producers, let's use the investment to supersize their business in order to be able to deliver content on a global scale.' It doesn't really work like that. It's a much more complicated picture than that. 

Equally, there are a lot of people within Wales whose ambition isn't to make Netflix; they want to make programmes or films that are reflective of the world and the culture that they work within. I've worked with Rondo for many years, with a number of fantastic directors and producers who work in the Welsh medium and want to continue to do that. They have no interest, necessarily, in working within the English medium or indeed making content that is sold on a global scale. So, I think there are lots of different—it's a much more complicated picture.

And I think there's value to be drawn out from much smaller productions. When we were doing our research looking at smaller productions that don't fit the £1 million an hour threshold, things like Casualty and Pobol y Cwm become really important parts of the ecology in terms of professionalising people and as a kind of pipeline for individuals in terms of upskilling, but also in terms of building skills and also around cultural contributions and things like that.

So, to reiterate a lot of what Tom said, I think the high end of the tv market is just one part of it. I think a strategy that can support that and can support the independent producers who do have an ambition, as you say, Bethan, to pitch to Netflix is important, but also not at the expense of supporting smaller producers who have other ambitions and who I think are incredibly important to Wales as a creative economy.

It is interesting to hear that perspective, because we had a panel before and, basically, I think—well, I don't want to put words in their mouths, but it came over as if they would all want to get to that level, just that they wouldn't necessarily have the opportunity. I think we wouldn't want to thwart their ambition either by the fact that they couldn't get that funding to do it, you know.

No, no. I think it's really important to recognise, because film and high-end television, you've got some really significant diversity within that and some really important differences. So, for production companies that are very focused on producing drama, Netflix and the opportunities there are really significant, but that isn't the entirety of the ecology, and that isn't the entirety of where the workforce in television production sits. So, I think you have to—genre really makes a difference when you start talking about this.

Also, to be blunt, sustainability isn't really in the hands of the Netflixes of this world, because next year Netflix might think that Romania is a great place to film or they might suggest that Denmark is a great place to film.

Or they might go away from drama—they might decide on sports or something.

Exactly. The sustainability is in taking the Netflix investment and being able to build a locally useful talent base that's available to work across a whole variety of different genres.

Also, I think one of the issues that we may come on to, which is absolutely key if you want to have a really sustainable ecology, is where the intellectual property rests, and where the rights are, and where, consequently, the revenue comes. One of the big challenges in working with Netflix is that they work on a different rights model. So, that's a challenge. That's a huge potential risk, as well as a huge potential opportunity, for independent producers across Europe, not just in Wales. It's really the kind of terms of trade framework and the retention of secondary rights that has really been the bedrock of why the UK generally has such a strong independent production sector. That's what Netflix doesn't adhere to.

There are also issues around language. Netflix are doing more and more original productions outside the US and making them in territories like Wales and Ireland and Scotland and places like that. But the reality is that 70 per cent of them are in the English language, so I think there is an issue around how we also support—. When I talk about a mixed ecology, I'm talking about both English and Welsh. I'm not a Welsh-language speaker myself, but I recognise that element—we're seeing the ecology as being incredibly important.

Mick, did you want clarification.

To clarify what you mean when you talk about—so we all understand it—the issue of secondary rights, and how important that is.

So, there are different ways in which you can finance television. I'm thinking that, Tom, you should be answering this one. [Laughter.]

So, depending on the scale of the production, obviously there is usually more than one source of investment. In this country, a broadcaster like the BBC will buy a package of transmissions and rights if you make a drama series for them, which is usually something like four transmissions over nine years across all channels. Or, some broadcasters like Channel 4, for instance, only buy two transmissions upfront. As a programme maker, you are then free to sell international television rights, video on demand rights, home video et cetera to a number of different people, usually with a distribution company. Most production companies have existing relationships with distribution companies that do that. But, ultimately, that decision is in your hands.

If you make a drama for Netflix, they eat it. They buy it all. It's Netflix, and they will use it and they will sell it to anybody they want to, and they will obtain all the profit. So, what you discover, and what I have discovered recently, is that a number of larger drama producers are somewhat—how should we say this? What's the word—?

Ambivalent.

They're ambivalent about whether or not they should work with Netflix. They'd have all the money, but they'd also take all the rights.  

The benefit is you get a lot of money upfront for making your production, but you sacrifice your rights.

Okay. Just a last question from me before we go back to Mick again. Do you think there is enough studio space in Wales to accommodate productions, not just at the high level, but any productions? I know we've got the Pinewoods of this world and Bad Wolf now in Cardiff Bay. I'm not sure—. Suzy thinks that Dragon is still there. So, whether there is enough space—.

At the moment, there appears to be a lot of space. I think it's all of a similar type. For instance, Bad Wolf's studio complex is fantastic. I don't know how many of you are familiar with it. It's a fantastic space. Pinewood is also a good space, if you've got the money to be able to afford to use both of those. There's a lack of available space for smaller productions, but then, as I think Ed Talfan was saying previously, when I have made drama series, I haven't shot them in a drama studio. I've shot them in a warehouse or in Treforest. You don't necessarily need studio space to produce any film or television.

I think it's been important that we have had studio space. Again, some of the debates in Scotland around trying to secure studio space have been really important. Perhaps this is the moment where we do some kind of audit around the assessment about what we have now. We've got to the point where we've been growing, and maybe this is an opportunity for us to say, 'Right, what is there?', and perhaps there are gaps. I know that, in some of the evidence, some of the smaller producers said, 'Actually, that's not for us. Roath Lock is at capacity.' So, maybe this is a moment, now that we have some of that, to think, 'Right, what's the next stage in that infrastructure?' I think that studio space infrastructure is good, but, listening to Ed earlier on saying, 'Yes, producers often work outside studio space', so I don't think it has to be the totality of the whole provision of tv in Wales.

The other thing I would say about studios is that studios only work if we have the labour around the studios. So, I think when we talk about the studios, it's not just a space or a box. It has to be about the labour market that's around that box, effectively. So, I think that, not only should we be looking at whether we have the right space, but whether we have the right labour within that space and the right labour that can go in that space as well.

I think your optimism is absolutely wonderful and the optimism about the perception of this. Just looking at the set of figures in terms of since 1999, there has been significant growth—growth on a very, very small starting point. So, whereas, since 1999, the gross value added in the UK as a whole has gone from, perhaps, £5 billion to almost £10 billion. The actual increase in Wales of GVA has gone from £59 million to £187 million. So, we've benefited by £120 million or £130 million, compared with an additional growth of £5 billion, and we're still at 1.8 per cent. So, we're still massively underperforming. Your perception is of an industry that, internationally, is very highly thought of, respected et cetera, which is growing, but in actual fact we're really quite a minuscule part of it.

It would be interesting to—. I don't know those figures, but do they include things like S4C commissions and BBC commissions as well, because, I mean—?

I think these are global figures. These are across motion picture, video and tv, so there will be aspects of it that will distort that, but—.

Yes. I think that's, again, another—. One of the big challenges for Wales is London, which is both a benefit and a real problem for us. So, the benefit is, as I was saying before, being part of that ecology, or being thought of as being part of the UK—reputationally, it does a lot of work for you in terms of the quality of production, the perception around the skills base and so on. However, we know that television production continues to be hugely concentrated. I'm sure that many of you know that today is the closing date for Ofcom's consultation on regional production and regional programming, where some of the criteria for made-out-of-London are being looked at. Yes, I would say that there is a real challenge to break the kind of hold, despite some really good work that has happened. The Roath Lock studios are the product of that, but London remains dominant, and I think that's a problem for all parts of the UK, other than London and the south-east. That's the thing: it's so very concentrated.

The Los Angeles syndrome.

Yes. There are benefits of having powerful neighbours, and there are problems with having powerful neighbours too. So, there is a challenge there. The other thing I would say, particularly looking at this as television not film, is about the importance of the commissioning process. So, I think there have been some significant pressures and some significant gains that have happened in terms of nations and regions policy, particularly from public service broadcasters, but, for me, the big thing still to crack is, 'Will the public service broadcasters commission routinely in the nations and regions?' That's the really big challenge. And in the context of all the discussion about Channel 4 moving, for example, the offices matter, for sure, but it's 'Where will they spend their commissioning money?' So, when Caitriona was talking about power and getting proximity, it's getting commissioners to recognise and appreciate the talent that exists outside of London, which I think is the huge challenge, and which any kind of strategy for growth has got to address.

Not only are Channel 4 going to move out of London, but they also have an additional quota of 9 per cent by 2020. That's going to be hugely important, and I think we need to get out in front of that and make sure that we can be proactive in terms of putting—. There is Welsh talent here. There are Welsh companies that can deliver, and it's making sure that they deliver on that, and that we can make sure that it's a meaningful investment. I reiterate Ruth's comments about the out-of-London: the policy around that is going to change, and I think some of the concerns around the substantive base, and things like that, will make that growth more meaningful.

That seems to me to be a really important point in terms of the commissioning process, so where are we in terms of that particular debate, and how do you think it is going? What is there that can be done to influence it further, and what are the implications of this?

I think we're at a fairly precarious stage with that, to be honest with you. I think that one of the challenges is to think about what difference the likes of BBC Studios are going to make, and I think that that is probably an area where more work needs to be done in assessing what the impact of BBC Studios is.

The impact of—?

BBC Studios. If you look at how the different public service broadcasters meet their quotas for out-of-London production, it is very striking, the difference between ITV on the one hand and BBC and Channel 4 on the other hand. So, BBC and Channel 4: a lot of their quota is met through commissioning independent producers. For ITV, it's overwhelmingly their own in-house productions. So, I think that is a really key area of work. BBC Studios is still very new, but I would say that that's where some research and some monitoring really needs to happen. I think that the discussion around the move of Channel 4 is a major opportunity, and I think Tom, as somebody who has worked and produced for Channel 4 will probably be able to speak to this more directly.283

There is a real pressure here, I think, that needs to be exerted on commissioners to look beyond London and to also recognise that all the creative industries tend to be quite risk averse, because they're profoundly risky entities, so the tendency is that you go to the people you already know. That is why we have so many problems in terms of the diversity of the labour market, but it's also a problem in terms of commissioning. So, I think there needs to be pressure there and that goes beyond just some of the tendency to look in made out of London, and in terms of regional production is around areas such as spend. The commissioners, I think, are really key. One of the characteristics of tv production in the UK is you're talking about a tiny number of people; they'll fit in a people carrier. They're the people to address.

But who are also often transitioning to other roles. Commissioners are constantly changing and you're constantly having to have that conversation with the next generation of commissioners, so, for me, it's a battle that hasn't been won in that you constantly have to keep filling. But the good thing is that we have evidence that we can deliver on those kinds of things, for network, and that's part of the appeal, or part of the proposition that we're offering.

Okay. I need to move on a little bit. I think those points are really interesting and probably worth exploring further. It takes me on, though, to the creative industries sector deal. I wonder if you could just put a little bit more flesh on the bones as to precisely what it is, how we should respond, what the potential benefits to us are, and how well we're placed to engage with it.

I would—[Laughter.] Don't you love it when the eyes turn to you? I think there are genuine opportunities within that. I think there's been a lot that has been gained in terms of, looking back over this time period, the prominence now of creative industries in the Westminster Government's industry strategy, for example. As you probably know, with colleagues at Cardiff, we have been working on putting a bid forward for a creative industries cluster, which would particularly be focusing on Cardiff and the Cardiff city region around trying to develop what we're terming a screen lab that would very explicitly be trying to develop more innovative content, understanding new ways of working within the industry and really realising some of this ambition, both to have a sustainable, indigenous industry, but also to think about enhancing the reputation internationally of production in Wales.

So, I think there are opportunities there. I know that there is more funding coming through. There was an event at the millennium stadium a couple of days ago, around demonstrators, which was particularly looking at the use of immersive technology—virtual reality, augmented reality, mixed reality—as part of creative narratives in areas such as performance, museums and galleries as well as in the screen industries. So, I think something significant has changed in the recognition of the importance of the creative industries as an economic and cultural good to the country, and I think we should welcome that. I very much hope that we in Wales are able to secure some of that public funding, because I do think there's a real opportunity there, but there's also an opportunity threat if we don't. Because my sense is that that is the beginning of a stream of funding and funding tends to go where funding has already been, so there is a real threat if we don't succeed with that.

And one final point, I mean, that, again, is another really important point that we need to focus on, but in terms of the perception of Wales, which you referred to earlier and the reputation of Wales, we had some evidence earlier in terms of the role of film festivals and whether there should be a national film festival. What are your views on that? What do you think we could do? Should there be a consolidated national Welsh film festival? Should we be more engaged internationally? What are the benefits of doing so?

We already have various film festivals in Wales. Cardiff international film festival comes here, there are a number of different things. Film festivals tend to be located in cities rather than nationally. I don't necessarily think there's a huge benefit to having a Wales film festival. What we've done at the University of South Wales is to pull together all our film and television courses now and rebrand them, effectively, as the Film and Television School Wales. There was a very successful film school in Newport for many years, which, because of the merger between Newport City and University of Glamorgan, fell fallow for a bit. So, we're reviving that brand absolutely in order to address the issues that you're highlighting, which is that we feel very strongly that the brand 'Wales', if you like—to speak ad speak for a bit—is something that has potentially considerable traction internationally, but also within the UK.

People in the film and television industries, because they're London-centric for the most part, and they tend to be parochial in the respect that they tend to see London as being the centre of everything, see Wales as a very definite brand in that respect. So, when they think of a production coming down to film in Newport, or a production filming in Swansea, or even a production filming in north Wales, they just think of it as filming in Wales. So why not turn that on its head and actually use that? So, we're very consciously recreating the idea of a film and television school in order not only to give a focus to the courses and the talent that we already have here, coming through the system, but also obviously to be able to attract new talent into Wales and package that talent in a way that the London-centric film and television industry understands.

What support are you able to give to your students in relation to how they develop, so that they can potentially—? We had the film production companies in earlier. How can they be mentored, potentially? You come from that background.

How long do you have? [Laughter.]

To get that hands-on experience.

Lots and lots of different things that I could talk about here; I'll try and be as brief as possible. So, very recently we had eight undergraduate courses here. Our undergraduate courses and our students tend to overwhelmingly come from a fairly narrow demographic area. They come from south-east Wales, but also south-west England and the west midlands—that effectively is our core area for student recruitment. Our belief is that they should already have the cultural capital that they need to succeed in the film and television industry, but they don't know how to, because they tend to be the kind of people who don't have an uncle working in the BBC, or a close family friend who is involved in some film studio. So, our idea is to expose them to the industry as early as possible, but also to give them the support in the local film and television industry that they need. So, we have organised a huge range of work placements, including placements on this new Netflix production, but also with Bad Wolf. I noted that you were discussing Screen Alliance Wales in the previous session.

Nobody knew anything about it today, though.

Sorry?

If you know more about it, that's fine.

Yes, I do, and we'll talk about that separately. We're quite connected to Screen Alliance Wales.

We'd like to know, wouldn't we?

Yes, I think there are a lot of people who'd like to know.

But also what we're doing is we are creating a number of postgraduate courses, MA courses, each of which is connected to a key industry partner within the Welsh film and television industry. So, for instance, Bad Wolf, we're looking for them to sponsor our directing course. Bait Studio, a fantastically successful post-production house, are going to be sponsoring our visual effects Master's programme. Our visual effects course is fantastically successful and students on it work across the whole world at the moment. We also have connections with production management, because we believe that's a big area with television production that's currently under-served. And also documentary, which again is an area that's under-served. So, the idea is we're pulling together our undergraduate courses, creating this sustainable brand, and then also being able to link that up as a clear progression route within Wales. And the key thing, the message to send out, is that Wales is not only the place to come if you want to develop your career, but it's also somewhere you don't have to leave in order to develop your career.

I think increasingly—I'm sure USW would speak to this as well—we're encouraging our students to be creative practitioners, and not just see themselves as students, but to develop their own creative practice as they transition through university. So, I'm on the admissions team, and one of the things that I'm really struck by is the amount of students who come to us from school having a blog. We had an applicant a few years ago who came to us, and he had a motoring blog, and he has something like 100,000 followers. So, it's helping him. 

A lot of our students do have that kind of—they are creative practitioners in their own level. So we're helping them to develop as freelancers, or to think about themselves as creative entrepreneurs. So, putting other skills with them as well as the artistic and the creative skills, so the business skills, the IP skills, the negotiation skills, and thinking about those. It's not just thinking about getting students to think in terms of the creative industries, but to think about themselves as creative practitioners as well. I think both universities, and indeed Cardiff Met I'm sure, would speak to that as well.

What's interesting as technology becomes cheaper and it becomes more democratic and it becomes easier to produce content is, actually, your future success within the creative industries is about your ability to product content, and to understand how that content is used. So, we want to turn our students, and equally, we want to be able to attract the kind of talent that can create the content of the future, whatever platform that's on. It could be tv, but equally, as you say, most of our students are producing online and right the way across the board because that's the future.

And I think it's also, just to acknowledge at the other end—so not postgraduate, but thinking about schools—I think that there probably is more work in joining up to have a more cohesive strategy around skills because by the time students are applying to us at university, some of the problems have already been put in place as to why they've already decided that a career in film and television is not for them, probably because they never thought it even was a possibility.

So, a really sustainable skills ecology would be starting, probably, in primary school. And I know that what it's like into film—working exactly at that level—they're looking at the primary through to secondary, 18 to 19-year-olds. That's one of the things that we're really conscious of needing to do more of that work, which is involving both school pupils, but also their teachers because it's how they are guided and advised. So, there's an issue there, I think, around careers advice, but also how teachers themselves feel equipped to be able to teach in this area. I think it's still the case that many of the people who have been asked to teach film and media studies do not necessarily have their first background in that area, and it's a big thing to ask an English or a drama teacher, on top of everything else, 'Can you also do this?' So, I think that that is still a big challenge to think of that as a skills pipeline that needs to be more cohesive.

There's a bigger social mobility issue here as well. Not to be messianic about it for a minute, but the studies about social media have suggested that, actually, if you come from a CDE background rather than an ABC1 background, you tend to be a consumer of that product rather than think of yourself as a creator. And, actually, if we're going to truly reflect the broader cultural basis of the UK and Wales, the idea is to encourage them to develop those skills as early as possible.

So, how are we going to do it, then? Because I agree, it's absolutely key.

Well, there are two things: one is encouraging them to believe that they can do it, which could happen at any stage in their education, but certainly, our university feels it's very much part of our remit to be able to give them access to the technology they need and give them the training that they need in order to create this work. But also, it's contact with industry at a very early stage within their university career.

But picking up on what Ruth is saying, you can't expect the English teacher to necessarily know this area as well, and probably the students know more than the teacher. So, how are we going to, if you like, inject that further layer of digital technology understanding into—?

It's digital technology, but it's also storytelling. I think that's one of things is to—

Well, that the English teacher will be able to help with.

That's the mistake, is that—

Yes and no. I think that's where you can—. There's a great opportunity with the new curriculum around expressive arts, and I would start there and say, there's already a policy, there's already something in place here, but how do we really maximise and amplify the value of that, so that we are really, genuinely, thinking about how those kinds of skills that cut across a range of different areas—? You can be using film in teaching science; it doesn't have to be all about film per se. How do you build a curriculum? How do you equip the teachers who are then delivering that curriculum to really be able to realise that potential? Because it is something distinctive. It really is.

We were hosting a conference for the subject association for art and design a couple of weeks back, and it was really striking how, again and again, we heard people from English universities saying, 'Wish we were in Wales, wish we were in Wales' because the perception of there being a different curriculum is really making an impact. So, that's great, but we have to deliver on that. I would start there, because I think it begins in schools. There's work that we need to do, sure, but it has to start earlier on.

I was just going to build on that, if I may, very shortly, because we're running out of time, I know. But in that regard, your optimism and enthusiasm around the curriculum, and the work that you are doing, it seems very well founded, but it's not what we're hearing in terms of the lack of capacity in the industry now and in terms of the labour market now. That isn't what we're getting from those who are currently producing at the moment, who say that there is that deficit here at the moment in terms of skills set and maybe capacity. So, is it just a matter of time? What else is needed?

I think that when people talk about a deficit, it's worth probing and asking specifically what—. So, something that I hear and I can see is that there's a deficit at levels that are much more senior—we're talking about mid-career levels, so executive producer-type level. So, one of the things that routinely isn't discussed in terms of skills and talent is the mid-career stage, and I think that's a particular issue—

Progression pathways.

Progression pathways. We have a scandalously—. In the UK, generally, we have a scandalously high attrition rate at mid-career levels, and it's really striking that it's women who, particularly, leave. So, that's the level at which you're talking for the skills and talent of executive producer-type level, the really experienced kind of script editors. That's not something—other things have to change beyond the schools curriculum if you're going to address that particular problem.

There are also problems of success, and you can see this across the world. There's very often a tipping point that you get to—you've built up your industry, it's so successful that the talent pool that exists is used up. You need to grow it, and you need to grow it more quickly as you succeed, because it keeps getting used on a range of productions.

And then there's another area around craft, I think, and I think that projects like Foot in the Door are really great at targeting and thinking creatively about how those kind of craft levels, which don't ever necessarily need to be anywhere near a university—. Universities are not the only providers in this ecology—

We've not mentioned apprenticeships.

Yes. Yes, and at some levels I think that's absolutely the appropriate level where that work can happen.

So, you would tend, then—sorry, Chair. You would tend to say that when people speak of a lack of capacity in Wales around film and television in the labour market that it needs to be more nuanced.

Yes.

Yes.

I think it needs to be a bit more nuanced. Also, I think it can be quite short term. I think it depends entirely on—. It's a very short-term industry in many ways, and, actually, people say there's a lack of capacity, but they might be meaning that they can't find a film crew for a drama series this summer. Yes, there is a short-term lack in many areas, but I think, long term, there are opportunities to develop new talent. I also think a sustainability of commissioning, so a sustainable supply of projects for people to work on within Wales, is the way to develop. We've seen how Doctor Who revolutionised the drama sector within Wales, just by simply being a long-term commitment. I think a similar commitment in factual television would make a huge difference.

So, while Doctor Who is on one end, even something like—. A lot of our students, for instance, get work experience on something like Bargain Hunt and things like that. So, it's not just on the high end—Pobol y Cwm and things like that—it's about getting the experience across returning series. It's a really important space for professionalising and for things like apprenticeships.

I take your point about the time. I think there is a time—we can say that the capacity isn't here now, but it takes years to develop that capacity. But I also think we need to think about transferable skills, because there's no point in developing 40 location managers because there's a gap today. Do we need 40 location managers and things like that? So, I think 'nuanced' is a really good word to kind of frame what we actually need, and that's where I think bringing together different groups like ourselves—but, as we've said, we're not the only education provider—further education and schools and the industry all together to talk about skills and how we can address those skills, and with the ambition around social mobility and addressing some of the questions about inequality—.

I would agree. I think it has to be a variety of different providers around—it can't just be the Government on its own. I think, looking the evidence, what really struck me, reading the evidence that had been submitted to the committee, is the number of initiatives that are going on, and I think it's not about replacing those, it's about aggregating them into something that is a critical mass, and having an unified strategy, rather than trying to replicate what's going on elsewhere.

I would say, just to add to that, that I think what Wales has got going for it, coming as somebody who's worked in the TV production sector in England for many years before I came here, is a real sense of shared values. Welsh TV producers that I know of and most of the people that I've worked with identify themselves as being Welsh TV presenters. So, I think there's a shared sense of values and a shared of sense of a critical—a sense that we need to do something. There is a community there that actually is seeking solutions and help among the indigenous producers. So, the strategy as was, as we said, incredibly successful at bringing in inward investment, I think, and should be acclaimed for that, but has been much less successful at super-sizing and supporting indigenous production companies within Wales to step up.  

I would add to that as well. I think having long-term funding that is flexible and agile and so allows planning but allows it to be responsive to what else is happening is really important. I think it needs to be appropriate to scale, so whether you're a small indie or whether you're large, there are routes for you to access funding. In terms of bureaucracy, I think it needs to be light but accountable, and I think it needs to take account of the very specific remit of media companies, and we talked earlier on about rights and things like that in co-productions. And we're seeing this as a much more complex space in terms of how companies are getting funding, and I think our funding needs to be knowledgeable about that, and it needs to work with that rather than against that, because—. And I think that has been, historically, a problem.

Do you have any other countries that you could—? Because it's a minefield for us as non-experts— well, it is for me; I don't want to speak for everybody else—in terms of comparing with other countries. Because what I'm hearing—I know we're talking perhaps now about inward investment—is that people are choosing not to come to Wales because, as Ed Talfan said, it's onerous. How un-onerous are other media investment budgets then as compared to Wales? The high-end stuff. 

Well, you know more than I do, but I would just say on the previous note, really, that I think any investment fund should—. We would obviously greatly advocate the idea that—. A strong commitment to talent and talent development within Wales is absolutely central, to me, to an investment fund. I've been a recipient of the Welsh investment fund as a producer, but also, obviously, in terms of a university educator, we have also—. This Netflix production has allowed us to put students on it, but it's been very incoherent and unworked out through, really. I think people are desperately trying to tick boxes, and there's an element of that to all of these funds, but I think that a consistency of investment and some criteria that can be easily audited, I think, are really key for the future of that. 

You've done some work with the Scandinavian—.

Yes. So, I would say that one of the things—. From the work that we've done in Scandinavia, there are a couple of things that really stand out. One is the centrality of public service broadcasters in delivering on this in high-end television and to some, much lesser, extent in terms of film. So, I think they always have to be part of the conversation. I think it's also a recognition that this kind of strategy takes a long time. Nordic noir arrived on our screens, but the thinking behind it started more than a decade ago. And it was very clear to those involved in that, within DR, that they were having to produce for an indigenous audience; the indigenous audience had to come first, but they had to also think about how they were creating content that could be appreciated internationally. So, it takes a long time to do this. 

In some ways, film and television are very slow industries. When it happens, it happens quickly, but it takes a long time to plan ahead. And I think that the other thing is absolutely about thinking two things. How, if you're going to incentivise by using public money, do you attach public goods, including the talent, not just spend? Spend is important, but we shouldn't forget that indigenous productions spend disproportionately high amounts of their money in Wales as well. So, spend does matter, but it shouldn't be the only measure. It's about how do you attach requirements for training, for talent development, and at all levels—so, not just entry point, but going back to this other level about how do you cultivate and develop at a mid-career level, because they ultimately are the people who really develop your industry for you. 

So, I think that there are other models and you can see where that success works. And I think there's a huge challenge there, because, if public service broadcasters really lose their position, Netflix isn't going to replace them in having that kind of social responsibility. It just isn't. 

And you can see that in Ireland as well, in terms of the centrality of broadcasters like RTE and TG4, the Irish language broadcaster, in terms of what they do for talent development, for that kind of pipeline of talent and content. And I think one of the things that I thought was interesting in relation to the Scandinavian experience and what they've learnt is that they're already planning beyond Nordic noir. They're already developing talent schemes because they realise that this industry is so cyclical, and it changes and tastes change, and they recognise this and they're already thinking about, 'Right, what's the next Nordic noir? What's the next style of content?' and developing that kind of mid-career to be able to respond to that. And I think that's incredibly important, that we do think beyond what we need today, to think about—. And that's where funding becomes really important—how is funding both agile and long term so we can do that kind of planning?

Thank you. Actually, you've given me some of the evidence I was hoping to get from you about how you'd like to see support for film and television restructured within Welsh Government and that's given us some insight, but I don't want to leap forward until I've just asked a few questions about the current situation. I'm wondering if you can give us some information about the Wales screen fund and what your understanding is of its purpose. Apparently, it's spent up to £10 million on 21 productions, but we seem to be struggling to get any information from anyone about this. If it means nothing to you, that's fine.

I'm aware of it, and that's about the extent of it.

I would say the same.

That's as helpful as we would imagine it to have been, actually. Tom, you mentioned that you've actually had, with a different hat on, support from the MIB. Do you want to talk us through the experience a little bit?

I made a series called, The Indian Doctor drama series, which was filmed in Wales. We're talking about seven or eight years ago.

Right, so this is not the current media investment fund.

No. It was the previous one; it was the IP fund.

Right, okay. I'll take the question back then, if you don't mind. I was trying to find out a bit more about the MIB.

She's not interested any more. [Laughter.]

It got me chance to name drop The Indian Doctor. [Laughter.]

As you probably realise, we're trying to get some information about how the MIB works and how it works from start to finish. So, are you in a position to share anything on that with us?

No, basically. Sorry.

That's fair enough. I imagine that Pinewood was originally brought into this because of their expertise. We've heard evidence earlier on from a production company, who said that they were very impressed by the civil service representatives within Welsh Government. Have you any views on whether there's enough expertise in-house, if you like, or have you had good experiences?

I have to declare that I've worked with Allison Dowzell over many years and I thought she was a fantastic servant to the Welsh Government—

We wouldn't know the civil servants, so—.

I feel that, possibly, they're feeling the loss of her now, because I think that she was personally very involved in the success of the inward investment strategy in particular. As I say, I'm now working with Allison in her new capacity at Screen Alliance Wales and I'm hoping that that as an initiative will use Welsh Government investment in a creative way to really help the unification and development of new talent in Wales.

Okay, that's helpful. Just one quick one, and this is just a personal point of view I'm looking for here really: should there be a big distinction between repayable Welsh Government financial support and non-repayable support? We took evidence earlier on that it should be related to size of production and where you are, where your entry point is, if you like.

I think that goes back to the point about the strategy, doesn't it? What are you trying to accomplish? And I think that's one of the things that really did stand out in Scandinavia: the ethos of what public funding is there to accomplish and that it is sometimes to be able to take the kinds of risks that commercial money won't do, but also to do so in order to build something sustainable at a lower scale, very often. And so, yes, I think that it's really important to have that kind of agility, as you were framing it.