National Assembly for Wales

Bore da. Good morning. I'd like to welcome Members to committee this morning. We don't have any apologies or substitutions this morning. 

Can I move to item 2? Just before I do so, we will be back in public session for item 5, which starts at 10.45 a.m. with regard to our inquiry on Careers Wales, and we've got Careers Wales before us. Under Standing Order 17.42, are Members happy to exclude the public for items 3 and 4? Yes. Thank you.

Welcome back to the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee. We move to item 5, and this morning we're taking evidence from Careers Wales. I'd like to welcome our witnesses this morning, and I'd be grateful if you could just introduce yourselves and your role for the record.

I'm Graham Bowd. I'm the chief executive of Careers Wales.

I'm Debra Williams and I'm the chair of Careers Wales.

Lovely. I'd like to start with the first question. The 'Changing Lives' strategy: can I ask how that will impact on your organisation's delivery?

Just to give you the background to 'Changing Lives' as a policy document, last year we engaged with PricewaterhouseCoopers to undertake a strategic review of services, because, clearly, over the last five years there has been a reduction in the resourcing of public sector organisations, and we are one of those organisations. We felt it was time to consider where we needed to place the greatest emphasis in terms of careers information, advice and guidance. So, we engaged PricewaterhouseCoopers and they undertook a very extensive stakeholder survey for us, and they also discussed with staff and client groups essentially where stakeholders and others saw us placing our priority going forward. And out of that emerged the 'Changing Lives' policy or vision document. 

That, in very basic terms, has three primary emphases in terms of what we're trying to achieve as an organisation. The first one is that we need to put a greater emphasis back into key stage 4 and the transition of young people into post-16 learning and training. And that means we're putting more people back into the school environment to work, because you will have seen adverse publicity about the number of careers advisers working in schools in Wales, and what we've done is we've turned that around with Welsh Government support. But also, the important thing for us to remember in relation to that change is that the emphasis is now more on young people who are looking at career management skills and competencies to make the transition as effective as possible. 

The other big aspect of 'Changing Lives' is a better digitalisation of services. Obviously, we've had a website for quite a number of years as an organisation. When it was originally conceived it was seen as an award-winning website, but websites do date very quickly. So, we've engaged with a key consultancy to look at updating our road map for ICT. Essentially, with 'Changing Lives' what we're looking to do is change from the offer of a website into the offer of a web service. Very simply put, what we're trying to do is create a much more personalised web service. So, if as an individual you go in to use it for a specific purpose, then the website will recognise what use you've made of it and will suggest content back to you. It's a bit like, for those of you who've ever used Amazon, for example, that sort of idea of having stuff recommended back to you is something we want that web service to feature. Alongside that is a host of other digitalisation of services, such as the virtual reality headsets, which, obviously, you will have seen just before the meeting went public, but also things like webinars and other services around the telephone helpline, which we call 'Careers Wales Connect' and so on. 

The review led to the strategy. When did you start that review? 

We're in the first year. So, in effect, it started at the beginning of April this year, so it's the first year of 'Changing Lives'. It is seen as a three-year concept. I don't know if the committee is aware—but, hopefully you are—that, obviously, Careers Wales is a wholly owned subsidiary of Welsh Government, but we work to an annual remit letter, and the remit letter for this year places a great emphasis on our implementation of this vision.

So, you've done this review as soon as you could following the remit letter; you couldn't have done it any earlier because you weren't remitted to do it beforehand. Right, I understand.

I think it's worth noting that, in answer to your question, the implementation of this three-year strategy was started once we had the remit letter and agreement to move forward. However, the research going into and working with stakeholders that led to the 'Changing Lives' document was done a number of months prior to that.

Okay, understood. Hefin, do you want to come in and also go on to your subject area as well? 

I was just looking at the 'Changing Lives' document, and the visions within it are very impressive. Particularly, I was interested in the professional development aspects and the idea of transferable skills more than job, but have you got the resources that you need to deliver this? You face a resource reduction. Are you going to be able to do it?

The challenge, I suppose, since 2013 and the creation of Career Choices Dewis Gyrfa has been the reduction of the workforce from 1,100 to just over 500. We achieved that largely by voluntary release. So, it's people volunteering to be made redundant, take early retirement or go to other jobs, or natural wastage. The issue then for an organisation, of course, is that, if you're doing it largely by volunteers, you can't always retain the staff that you wish to. What has happened in the last two years, and it looks likely to be happening again next year, is that we've got a stable budget situation, which means that in the most recent round of voluntary release, we were able to say, 'Right, now, as an organisation, we're going to put an emphasis on professional job roles and say "no" to people who want to go voluntarily from professional job roles'— so, careers advisers, business engagement advisers, careers in the world of work co-ordinators—'but we would say "yes" to managers and technician staff', because our management structure, obviously, was predicated on 1,100 employees, and we now need it to be much more in scale to the current scale of the organisation.

So, recent VR is targeting to make sure that we're retaining the employees we need and targeting volunteering from the employees we no longer require.

So, I imagine there's a degree of training going on, and refocusing skills within the organisation as well.

Yes.

Yes, and the resources are not just human resources, of course. So, the essence of Careers Wales is to give the right information at the right time through the right channel, hence part of our digitalisation strategy is that we are able to give a lot of information through a digital strategy, not necessarily through a one-to-one meeting, as was the previous modus operandi.

Okay. Debra, how long have you been chair?

It's coming up to two years now.

Okay. So, I imagine you would have brought with you quite a lot of contacts to Careers Wales, because you've got quite a lot of experience outside of all of this. Did you bring with you stakeholders who wish to engage more with Careers Wales?

Yes, certainly. STEM subjects are a hot topic for many people. So, for example, one of my other roles is sitting on the board at Swansea University. They have a wonderful initiative, which is Soapbox Science, where we get female scientists from all over the world coming to Swansea every year, and they do public sessions there to introduce children to the world of science. So, I've linked that contact, for example, with Careers Wales, and we promoted it in Swansea and got quite a number of young children, especially young females, to go to those sessions, to break down the stereotype of what a scientist looks like.

I was going to say, just to supplement as well, in terms of digital, for example, Debra has introduced us to the Alacrity Foundation—

Sorry?

The Alacrity Foundation, of which Debra is a board member or trustee.

I'm a trustee of the Alacrity Foundation, which is the charity foundation for entrepreneurship, sponsored by Sir Terry Matthews. It's based in Newport, where there are quite a number of very impressive young people, and it's really cutting-edge technology. So, again, we're working with the Alacrity Foundation, looking at solutions that are very digitally based and very forward thinking, reacting to the young people that we speak to. Because the way that young people communicate is very different from the way that I will communicate, for example, and it's changing so rapidly. So, we have to be able to keep up with how they want to communicate.

And, Graham, how long have you been with Careers Wales?

Well, I've been in careers services for 33 years, but I've been the chief executive since April.

So, would you have recognised a better engagement with stakeholders in the last two years?

Yes, certainly on the digital side, very much so. But also, the organisation cannot function if it doesn't engage with stakeholders. So, it's a fundamental principle of how we operate.

So, that wasn't done well enough in the past, but you're starting to see an improvement now.

One of the philosophies of the organisation is one of continuous improvement. There's always scope to improve things. What we don't do is rest on our laurels if there are opportunities to improve. So, for example, we've got three new board members, and one of those is very digitally aware—he's operated as an MD for radio stations and in newspaper journalism, but he's very aware of social media and the engagement of clients via that means as well. And we've engaged with board members—another board member is very keen on equality and diversity issues. So, that kind of—

That brings things—

It really supplements and adds value, yes.

A link to the outside world. Last question: what else would you need from the Welsh Government in the years ahead if you are to deliver 'Changing Lives' effectively?

I suppose a commitment to stay on course with 'Changing Lives'. I've never been an advocate for changing policy mid stream unless there's a particular imperative for it. I think what we recognise, having undertaken all of that stakeholder consultation last year, is that 'Changing Lives' is the right direction of travel. Basically, the other aspect of 'Changing Lives', which I didn't quite cover when I answered the question earlier, is actually helping schools and others to develop their own capacity as well.

Is the Welsh Government buying into this?

Yes. Certainly, in terms of the higher education, skills and lifelong learning—yes, definitely.

The dichotomy that we face is that Welsh Government is a 12-month cycle. The remit letter comes out annually and the budgets are done annually, but here we have 'Changing Lives', which is a three-year plan. So, our ask and desire of Welsh Government is to buy into it, and they have bought into 'Changing Lives', and to see that through so that we can do it justice.

Okay, thank you.

Mark Isherwood, on this point.

You referred to stakeholder engagement earlier in the digital context. What, if any, road testing of actual potential digital platforms has been undertaken with the customer/client/service user, i.e. the younger or older people who will be accessing the service?

We are actually in the process of finalising a restructuring. One aspect of our business is obviously the evaluation of the impact or the benefit of our services, but the flip side is the engagement of clients to create our services, to actually help us consider whether those services are appropriate. So, what we're doing is—those two sections were in different parts of the structure, we've brought them together in this new structure, because there is a clear synergy between asking clients and customers about what we do and how we should do it and then measuring the impact of it. We've got considerable evidence about the impact and benefit of services, largely via independent research, but we are now engaging much more with the client as well.

Who is the key stakeholder?

Well, it depends what—the key stakeholder for us will always be the individual clients, the young people or adults using the service, but there are interests from other parties as well. So, employers are a key stakeholder in terms of—we've developed or we're reintroducing a database that is called the education business exchange, which is supporting schools and employers about engaging in work-focused learning, not just work experience. We are actually doing what we call early adoption of that in Blaenau Gwent, Merthyr and Ceredigion, but we're extending it across the whole of Wales and looking to obviously encourage other authorities and schools to engage with that. The idea is that that forms part of the service between stakeholders and other stakeholders, but in the interest of the clients, ultimately.

David Rowlands.

Obviously, there has been criticism of Careers Wales—I must admit, not all of it, I think, deserved, to be quite honest with you, when we've read back about what you've been doing. But, obviously, we're interested now in going forward and finding how you feel you can improve the advice that's given to young people. I've got a particular interest in vocational careers and promotion of vocational careers. It came out in the last session, actually—we talked about the fact that your engagement with pupils at an early stage in schools et cetera is critical to this, to actually guide them to where they ought to be going rather than simply to an academic career or whatever. How are you going to take that forward, because we've heard in previous sessions that there is a difficulty with schools—that they've had this idea that they have to take them on to academic levels, particularly with the fact that they want to keep them in their sixth forms et cetera? How are you going to overcome that now? What policies are you taking and putting in place to support them in that?

Very much in a nutshell: first of all, we are actually an awarding body for careers information, advice and guidance awards to level 6. So, in terms of the professional qualification, we're actually the organisation in Wales that offers the highest standard around the induction and qualifying of staff, and we've recently recruited around about 20 new careers advisers, for example. So, there's that aspect. We also do a lot of continuing professional development because, clearly, any profession, in order to remain part of a professional register—and all of our staff who are careers advisers are on the UK professional register—those staff have to do CPD, and they also have to do 25 hours as part of the career development institute aspect. That's one aspect.

The other aspect is—and I'm going to put it in very bald terms—the careers information, advice and guidance of yesteryear was very much geared to a career idea and getting young people or adults to enact a plan. What we're now into is the idea of helping individuals with career skills or career management competencies, and those sort of competencies include things like: if they're changing their mind, do they know how to find out what opportunities are available to them—where they go, how they evaluate those opportunities, how they look at themselves in relation to that, how they look at things like decision making in relation to opportunities?

So, basically, the profession has re-grounded in this idea that it isn't about an idea and us being the experts, it's about helping individuals to help themselves in the future because, clearly, experts are not always on hand to support individuals through life changes. 'Changing Lives' is very much emphasising supporting young people who need career management competencies and skills, alongside schools. With adults, obviously, they find themselves unemployed or under notice of redundancy, so the aspect of the business there is very much helping adults consider the next stages of learning or reskilling in order to re-enter the labour market. So, it's both aspects, really.

To a certain extent, you've answered my question but, Graham, I have to come back to the fact it starts in schools. Now, obviously, we've heard that there's a suggestion that Estyn should actually put part of their analysis of a school's performance, this must be— . Their careers side of it should actually be made mandatory for Estyn to make that part of their—. Would you agree with that?

We are subject to Estyn inspection, as an organisation. The previous companies, before CCDG was formed, had been subject to two Estyn inspections over the previous cycles—

I'm talking about the schools themselves now.

The schools—

When the schools are being inspected by Estyn, part of the analysis of that school's performance will include their careers advice side of it. 

What Estyn tend to do—. Obviously, they do inspections of schools, but they take inspection findings and they create thematics as well. As the committee will have heard, there have been thematics on learner support. There have been thematics on careers and the world of work. Now, what that is doing is it's gleaning information from a whole host of inspections and looking at the impact of, say, careers and the world of work learning in terms of schools in Wales. I think that's right and proper.

Right, yes, but they've got to be more specific about that. An individual school's performance with regard to its careers advice—that's what we're talking about here. Whether Estyn inspect—

What Estyn are doing is recommending that schools improve. If you look at the more recent thematics, they're clearly saying schools needs to improve careers information, advice and guidance. That is in conjunction with Careers Wales, because, of course, 'Changing Lives' is putting more resources back into schools, because there was—. Clearly, what I think schools perhaps struggled with is in—. Well, from 2008 and the recession, there's been a reduction of support. By 2013, the creation of CCDG meant that we were reconsidering our priorities in terms of being a wholly owned subsidiary of Welsh Government.

But, historically, you've had a problem with actually interacting with schools or schools not wishing to interact in the way that they ought to be with you. What I'm trying to say is: would you actually want a mandatory situation for Estyn to make that part of an inspection of schools? 

I think—.

Sorry—I'll jump in just for a second. The policy for what schools are accountable for and responsible for delivering, and what Careers Wales is accountable for and delivering is obviously set by Welsh Government. So, we are there to support schools and give them the tools that we can to allow them to deliver the careers advice in the world of work that they're remitted to do. We've given examples of that, such as the education business exchange that we're piloting now, and giving back to schools so that they can utilise those sorts of tools.

Fine, okay. Just one thing: one of the measurements of whether apprenticeships are being pushed within schools et cetera, and part of your remit as well, is the work experience element of it. Now, we see from the figures that this has been falling. It may well be down to budgetary funding from yourselves, and this is not to point a finger at you in any way; it's simply to explore the situation as it stands. You know, in 2010-11, 31,000 work experiences, and in 2013-14, 23,000. We don't have the figures at this moment in time, but is that still falling? And is there some intervention that you're now planning to make sure that that doesn't fall any further, or improves?

This is one of the very passionate topics for me personally. I have three children currently in the education system, but obviously I work a lot in the private sector, so I probably have quite a good overview of this.

What was called the work experience database was taken away from Careers Wales a few years ago, which I personally feel was unfortunate, and the stakeholders that I talk to from both sides absolutely welcome the opportunity for young people to experience work before they actually step into the work environment, and they not only get to see some of the employers, but they also learn employability skills during that period, which is very, very important for them. So, we listened to that feedback and we've reacted to that feedback, and it's part of the 'Changing Lives' document. The Welsh Government have put it back into the remit for Careers Wales, and that's the education business exchange that we've been talking about. So, we're piloting that now, we're working with the vast majority of the local authorities across Wales to rebuild that database. We're working with organisations so that they understand the complexity of that, and we're working with schools. Sorry, not the complexity—we're working with them so that they can set up the permissions for young people to go into their environments and we're working with schools then to give them that tool to be able to set that up for young people. So, that's being piloted now, and early next year that will be launched in its entirety. 

Yes. One of the things you've mentioned is to get to a database of 10,000 businesses by 2018.  

That's right. 

Is that part of that strategy?

Absolutely, yes. 

Fine. Thank you. 

Sorry, can I just supplement that as well? Work experience is an aspect of work-focused learning. The database we're introducing is about work-focused learning. It's not just exclusively work experience, because what you would hope to see is that as schools disengage from work experience, they increase their participation in work-based learning in terms of learning support, and where schools do it effectively, you often see that in terms of their monitoring of learning about work in other ways. 

Fine. 

Mark Isherwood. 

Thank you. What faith do you believe that your stakeholders have in the Careers Wales brand?

Interestingly, when we surveyed them recently—. When Debra joined the board, she expressed concern, 'Maybe the brand is no longer seen as positive as it could be', but when we actually surveyed—we introduced an independent research organisation because we didn't want to do it ourselves, so we brought somebody in—just over 80 per cent of people questioned said that we should retain the brand. And I suppose the interesting question is: what is it that the brand now represents that, you know, in a sense, you need to move away from? I don't think we're wedded to the brand, because, again, I don't know if the committee are aware, but the brand is owned by Welsh Government. We operate against the brand. As an organisation we're Career Choices Dewis Gyrfa and we operate under the brand of Careers Wales. I think, as Welsh Government evolves in terms of the policy around employment advice and other things, I can see the brand maybe evolving and changing as well. 

My concern when I came in was that many people challenged me about anecdotes going back sometimes 30 years, with careers advice that they'd been given in schools. When you dig beneath the service, often it wasn't a careers advisor from Careers Wales that they were talking to; it was somebody else. So, that's when I challenged the executive to look at the brand. But I think, more importantly, what the brand stands for is that it truly is the only place in Wales where you can get impartial careers advice. I think the colleague alluded to that a little bit earlier, and I suppose what I underestimated when I first came in, and I've subsequently learned, is the value in that whole-of-market information, because we're talking to young people and adults all the time, we're talking to stakeholders day in, day out. So, we're able to collate an awful lot of that information and share that with other organisations. Careers Wales is quite a complex organisation in the sense that it signposts people to many other organisations that are related.

We've actually heard that the brand is well regarded but that it's been associated—. The recent changes, change of remit and falling budgets have not perhaps been well communicated as might have been the case, and so the decline in respect for the brand reflects poor public awareness of your changing role and priorities. How do you believe that can be better addressed and that those changed priorities can be communicated to your partners and more broadly? 

It's interesting. We sent 'Changing Lives' out to all of our stakeholders, including Assembly Members, but awareness of it—. Sending something out and talking about the vision of an organisation is one thing, but what we've got to do is much more extensively start talking to those organisations about what it means in terms of the vision. So, we recognise that we've got to do a lot more on that front in terms of making sure that people understand, if you like, the deficits of the brand but also what the brand now represents in terms of the positive services. Hopefully, as Debra has said, the brand needs to be associated with impartiality and independence, to be seen as a conduit between supply and demand in terms of young people and adults moving through to the economy and skills—the labour market—and, as you've alluded to a number of times, there's a question over the vested interests of some of the stakeholders in relation to how that transition is managed. What we need to represent is a client-centred impartial view of support.   

I believe the best way to get the message out there is to invite people to actually see what we do and experience what we do. So, we hold events all the time. For example, we hold job fair-type events, where we attract over 100 businesses that come in and talk to schools. Schools are shipping bus loads of young people in to have those experiences. So, we've extended that invitation to as many stakeholders as we can. We extend that invitation to Assembly Members, and our board as well have become more ambassadorial role models for us. So, our board members now have been tasked with attending as many functions as they can so that they get to see it and, as Hefin alluded to earlier, with their independent contacts as well, then the message starts getting out there. 

Can I just ask one more just very quickly? Could you be more quick and creative if you were still a social enterprise rather than a wholly owned subsidiary of Government? Finally, I recently met the new regional manager for Jobcentre Plus in north and mid Wales, who told me about the work they're doing with you, and the desks you now have and are opening in their offices. Could you just very briefly tell us a little bit more about that?

One of the things that we're looking at is the service becoming more co-located and offered more peripatetically, because, obviously, we work through 214 secondary schools in Wales, 80-odd plus jobcentre premises. Colleagues and I have met with Fiona Jones, who is the manager of Jobcentre Plus in Wales, and her colleagues, and what we're looking at is more creative ways of co-locating. I think what you've picked up in north Wales is that, recently, we made a decision to close the last of our career centres in Flintshire, for example, at Mold. We'd already closed the Shotton careers centre. Part of the reason behind that is we want to provide services either more digitally, via the telephone and, if we are in the community, through other partner organisations co-locating. That is the policy of the organisation. So, we've had an estates strategy. It's now going into phase 2, which we're calling an access strategy as opposed to estates because it's about clients being able to access us at appropriate times in appropriate places. So, we're doing what we feel is right in this era to actually offer our services in that way.

Thank you. Hefin David.

I just want to ask briefly about this concept of impartiality, and the opposite being partisan and biased. Why is that an advantage, and who is it an advantage to?

It's an advantage to the individual client.

And why is that?

Because, if young people and adults find themselves heavily influenced by a partisan group, then what will happen is they're not aware sufficiently of the other opportunities available to them, which means that they will—.

So, these other groups—what are these other groups that would be doing this?

Well, if you look at the post-16 environment—obviously, sixth forms, colleges, work- based learning, apprenticeships as part of work-based learning, employers are all potentially in competition for around about 34,000 young people reaching statutory school leaving age at the end of June. Obviously, political drivers have engaged more and more young people in post-16 learning, which is fine, but is it the appropriate learning, and is it in the appropriate environment? I think there has to be some responsibility to help individuals consider what is the best match for them, what is the reality of the labour market in relation to that best match. So, are they choosing the right route?

So, just to quote you a simple statistic, in key stage 4—year 10 and year 11—we do a diagnostic called career check. Career check essentially gives you a very rich vein of information about people's aspirations and levels of learning. When we did it last year, around about 7 per cent of young people were talking about apprenticeships being the preferred route by the end of key stage 4, going into post 16, but when you look at destinations come October, which again is a survey that we undertake, less than 2 per cent of them had turned that into material access into that particular route. So, what it tells me is that we need to do more to encourage people to understand and choose the options that are best suited to them.

I wonder if that's an issue of impartiality. I was just thinking now, say you had Deloitte competing for a group of graduates, for example, or before university and wanted to put them on a management training course, it's probably not impartial, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing.

It's not a bad thing per se, but it impacts on Welsh Government spend. If you've got young people, for example, who transfer into the sixth form and then leave the sixth form after one year and then join the local further education college, for example, only to repeat the learning that they did the previous year, or at least the level of that learning, then essentially what is happening is that young people are doing three years when, actually, economically, they could do it in two. And I suppose, as an organisation, we're very much trying to help here, in terms of avoiding the repeat of year 12 learning, avoiding the repeat of year 14 learning, trying to help young people choose the right route for them, the right learning level at the point where it takes them through, appropriately, in as economically viable a way as possible.

Adam Price.

Could your relationship with the Welsh Government be better?

I believe we have a challenging and demanding relationship with Welsh Government. They certainly do push us quite a lot. That said, it's a very positive and supportive relationship that we have with Welsh Government. And that's both with the two Ministers who I've worked with since my time in chair, but also, the executive team have a very close relationship with the supporting officials as well.

Beyond the annual remit letter, how does that engagement happen, then? Give us a flavour of that.

It's quite extensive. We have regular meetings, we provide them with monthly management reports. I meet with the Minister, Graham meets with the Minister, I have various sessions with the supporting officers. We have representation on the board from Welsh Government. So, the interaction is quite frequent, and as I say, they certainly demand a lot of information from us.

They also, obviously, are very heavily involved in the corporate governance structure, in the sense that we have myself as chair and we have 13 directors. Those 13 directors go through an appointment process that's quite extensive that is in conjunction with the Welsh Government. They are ministerial appointments at the end of the day. We make sure, then, that we have three committees that the board represents: finance, audit and risk is one committee, people matters, which also looks at remuneration, and then we also have a committee that looks at performance and impact. So, all of those committees report into the board and we report on them, subsequently, to Welsh Government.

Is the relationship just a one-way relationship—essentially, you're a vehicle for delivery of their priorities? Or is it more of a dialogue? Are you able to influence Welsh Government? Can you give an example where you've actually managed to change their—?

'Changing Lives' is the primary example in recent years, because, obviously, when CCDG was created, there was a particular drive towards NEET clients—maybe young people or adults who were furthest from the labour market in terms of support. We repositioned that with the PwC stakeholder engagement, and 'Changing Lives' emerged from that. Obviously, we put 'Changing Lives'—the board put 'Changing Lives'—to Welsh Government and said, 'This is the vision we think Welsh Government should have for the next three years.' And the Minister accepted that.

Ultimately, yes, we are a delivery vehicle for Welsh Government. However, the relationship is certainly not a one-way relationship. We gave the example earlier of the education business exchange, which previously had been taken away out of the remit for Careers Wales. But we felt very passionate about it as a board. I certainly felt passionate about it individually, and our stakeholders agreed with us. So, we were able to influence Welsh Government, and that became part of the 'Changing Lives' strategy.

The Welsh Government, separately, fund a whole host of other initiatives and programmes that overlap and touch with some of your areas of activity—Inspiring Skills Excellence in Wales, Business Class, Business in the Community and various other initiatives. Isn't that a bit confusing?

We get engaged with most of these initiatives where we touch on one another. I think this co-location idea is to help organisations consider where they add value in this particular environment. So, what we want to avoid, obviously, is organisations believing that a deficit in what is provided has to be provided by them and starting to have a much more collaborative approach. So, Business in the Community, for example, and Business Class—it's something that Careers Wales supported BITC with, and helped deliver, I think, 81 partnerships across Wales, currently. So, it was an actual relationship. In terms of the branding of it and the understanding of it, as long as the two parties understand their respective roles and how they contribute—I think that's the important thing.

Going back to Mark Isherwood's question, in becoming a wholly owned subsidiary of Government, have you lost a little bit of that autonomy and ability to be innovative and entrepreneurial that would be there, for example, if you were, I don't know, a company limited by guarantee outside of direct Government ownership, so that you could actually promote some of your own ideas and have a bit more leeway?

I would argue that we do promote our own ideas and we are very entrepreneurial and innovative, as some of the examples that we've given show. It's an organisation that's very focused on outcomes, it's a lot more responsive now and it's a lot more flexible in its approach. So I would argue that we are all of the things that you have described that we need to be.

Just to come back at you a little bit on that, the Welsh Government's intending to provide you with a much more specific remit from next year on. Doesn't that actually constrain even further your ability to drive things forward under your own initiative? Or do you welcome that?

Well, we welcome dialogue with Welsh Government, and we have constantly. The remit letter is obviously something that is based around 'Changing Lives'. So, we've set out very clearly our strategy, and, as we said earlier, we work very closely. So, we welcome the remit letter, because we're working very closely with Welsh Government to form that remit letter.

You welcome a more specific remit letter.

Well, we welcome engaging with Welsh Government a lot more so that we're part of that process.

I just want to be clear here. They've said quite clearly that they want a more specific remit letter, which will go into more detail, basically giving you a tighter brief. Do you welcome that? Because that, presumably, will limit your ability to—

I think it's important that there's recognition that what an organisation or organisations could do with £41 million or £42 million is going to be different to what an organisation can do with maybe about £23 million of public funding. But I think it is right and proper that Government has a view as to how that money is spent for this particular agenda. What we do is engage, obviously, with officials in terms of the remit. So, the remit doesn't come as a complete surprise when it's published—we've had opportunity to influence that remit within the parameters in which we operate. Then, in giving us the remit, that is very much the 'what'. On how we deliver it, we have a high degree of autonomy. You know, we report on the impact of how we deliver this particular remit letter.

Just finally, this year alone, three different Ministers and two different departments have had responsibility for your services. Has that had a negative impact on your ability to plan and to deliver your services? 

Not noticeably. We were chatting before coming into the session, and the important thing for us is that we keep focused on the fact that a careers service is valuable if it's focused on economy and skills. It's looking at the ultimate issue for us as a nation: how effectively are people engaging with the labour market. If we keep that focus, then, in the sense that that's the Government's focus, that's fine, but obviously, if Ministers choose to change that focus, that could be a potential problem, because, obviously, we want to remain focused on the ultimate outcome.

A quick question from David Rowlands.

During the last evidence session we had, Adam actually mentioned the plethora of agencies and organisations out there delivering virtually the same sort of thing. One of the witnesses had mentioned your remit as possibly—or part of your remit—being brokers with regard to that. Now, do you see yourselves in any way—? Because I see you—. And I think keeping the name Careers Wales is quite important, because it is recognised. There is some baggage coming with it, but having said that, it is immediately recognised as an umbrella to this, and part of that, obviously, would be you directing people, or pupils, or whatever it is, to these other organisations. Do you see that as part of your remit?

We see our role very much as a pivotal organisation working with stakeholders in terms of what those stakeholders provide. Where I think we would share the concern is if there’s duplication in that system, and I suppose what we need to be aware of as organisations is, if we do have European social fund projects, we are aware of how that project works in conjunction with what is provided by Government or local government in terms of services.

Okay. Just one other very quick one, if I can. You talk about going forward, and you talk about splitting into six teams as part of your going-forward strategy. There’s obviously a possibility of a silo regime building up within that. So, do you have any interventions? Are you putting things in place to make sure that that doesn’t actually happen?

I suppose what you’re referring to is this structural change.

Yes, you’re talking about six teams, as such.

Just to be clear, the structural change—. When CCDG was formed, obviously, it was bringing in six geographical locations with different companies operating in those geographic locations, and then a seventh company. The organisation tended to function very much on a regional basis. So, we ended up with four regions across Wales. What this new structure is doing is saying, ‘No, we’re a national organisation, so at the very senior level of the organisation, we should be looking at things functionally so that it will drive practice across the whole of Wales’, because there are concerns about whether services are consistent and to a high quality across the whole of Wales. So, we’ve got that to consider. But underneath it, on a practical level, there are still regions in Wales. So, you still have to consider the particular needs of north Wales as opposed to south-west Wales as opposed to south Wales, and you have to feature your services, then, in terms of the stakeholder arrangements and the relationships that happen regionally. So, in effect, we’re creating a matrix of function and region, and hopefully, the proof of the pudding will be when the structure’s fully implemented, which will be by Christmas or just after. That new structure will be much more effective at driving us as a national organisation.

There’s going to be a review of both Careers Wales and Business Wales, and the former Minister Julie James put on record here when she appeared in front of the committee that she would like to see a closer working relationship between the two organisations. What do you think could be the possible benefits of that kind of closer working relationship?

That relationship already exists, we’re very pleased to say. So, the two organisations work very closely anyway as part of the Valleys taskforce, but also, we’ve used the example many times with our digital strategy—so, they’ve been incredibly helpful advising and guiding us, and we’re looking at using some of their technology to host some of the digital services that we want to utilise.

So, there’s a very close operational working relationship there anyway. I think that part of the idea and review is looking at how the two organisations could sit more on a corporate level, and we’re working very closely with the officials at Welsh Government as part of that. They’re putting together a business plan that will have a number of options, which we’re led to believe will be looked at in the early part of next year. So, operationally, we will continue to do that, and welcome their input. 

So, if you feel that there's a good, strong close working relationship already does that mean then, Debra, that you don't think there's necessarily a need for a merger between the two organisations?  

Like I say, there are different levels here. Operationally, Careers Wales and Business Wales both have the same destination, effectively; they come at it possibly from different angles. However, ultimately, both organisations form part of the heart of the Government employment strategy via skills and economy. So, I think our destination is very much the same. So, we welcome working a lot more closely with them. Certainly, in the last two years, that relationship has become a lot closer, and, certainly through our digital transformation strategy—it's been enhanced by their input. 

And thinking specifically about the Welsh Government's apprenticeship offer, do you think that closer ties again between the two organisations could help with delivery of that? 

If we think of it simply in terms of supply and demand—so, if you've got one organisation that's very much focused on offering young people and adults a service that tries to help them match suitably to opportunities, and you've got another service that's very much geared to promoting business expansion, business development, entrepreneurship, self-employment, then, clearly, there is value in that relationship being a close one, and that's what Debra is describing. 

I think in terms of the politics around whether merger or realignment is appropriate, what the Minister's always been clear about—the previous Minister; obviously, we need to discuss this with Baroness Eluned Morgan—is that the outline business case and the financial business case for that is under consideration. So, whatever emerges, we will play our part. But, certainly, on the ground, working more collaboratively on things like the digital offer, services to business in terms of how they engage with schools, for example—all of that kind of stuff—I think is sensible for us to work on. 

And, Debra, you mentioned there the work that your organisation is already doing with the Valleys taskforce, getting ready for their delivery plan. And, as a Valleys AM myself, I'm certainly very interested in that. Careers Wales has done some great work with adults in the past, and I know your remit now is asking you to focus more on school-age clientele. So, what would your relationship actually be with the employment advice gateway?  

I'd probably ask Graham; Graham has got more detail on that programme. 

Interestingly, the employment advice gateway—. Obviously, the Minister withdrew the tendering for, or the potential to tender for, the lot for the predecessor name of the employment advice gateway, and invited Careers Wales then to very much work with officials to look at the constituency of the employment advice gateway. And, obviously, we are looking forward to 2019 and being engaged appropriately in that major policy area in terms of the employability framework. But, in terms of between now and then, we're working with officials to look at piloting some activities, so, for example, in the Valleys taskforce area, this concept of access running alongside ReAct funding—this idea that, for individual adults who would benefit from some sort of support with learning and retraining, funding will be made available to them even if they're not eligible for ESF funding. And Careers Wales is heavily involved in that, and you will have heard about the sort of work we do with ReAct, which has generally garnered very positive responses both from individuals and from the evaluations that have been undertaken.    

Certainly, constituents in my own area have spoken to me about the transformational impact that ReAct has had upon them, so I'm really glad to see the work that you're doing there with the Valleys taskforce around similar issues. 

I suppose it's an important point of clarification. Obviously, Careers Wales is an all-age guidance service; it isn't exclusively for young people. What we're talking about is there are two major policy drivers: there's 'Changing Lives' for young people and stakeholders around schools and the world of work, and then the other big policy driver is to do with adults, and we're engaged in both.

I suppose, sometimes, we divide them off, in a sense, because they're being driven by slightly different groups of officials that we engage with. But, essentially, we maintain this all-age policy.

But we also have to be very realistic as an organisation and react to current affairs. So, coming out of the Valleys, slightly, we reacted to Tata Steel and we had a taskforce that was put in there to work with the people in Tata Steel. Likewise, with the announcement of Tesco, we're working with people there. So, we also react to economic forces with adults, and not just exclude them.

Thank you. We're just over time now, but I will ask Members if they do have any final questions— but if you could be succinct, and very succinct in answering them.

I just wanted to ask, myself: do you think that there's scope for working more closely with the jobcentre?

We do work very closely with the jobcentre. We actually have staff who work in jobcentres across Wales. At the last count, there were something like 54 different jobcentres. Recent discussions with Fiona Jones were about more co-location arrangements. And what I think we see as part of our access strategy, which I referred to earlier, is that, as a service, in terms of supporting young people or adults, we'll do much of our support in schools, in terms of young people, and much of our support of adults in Jobcentre Plus and in the community. Obviously, that requires a lot more co-location and co-operation between us and those services.

And is there anything else outside of Careers Wales that can enable you to work more closely with the jobcentre?

I suppose, obviously, the jobcentre is driven by a different national agenda—

It is.

—but, you know, I think that when it's translated on the ground in Wales—

Could the jobcentre be doing anything different to be more supportive of you working more closely with them?

Jobcentre are very, very happy with the working relationship. When we did a stakeholder survey, the most recent one—

That's fine.

—it was 100 per cent satisfaction from Jobcentre Plus staff with the relationship with Careers Wales.

Okay. David, did you have a question?

No.

Adam.

Yes. How do you plan to work with the regional skills partnerships? Is that important?

We already do. But, when I was explaining the difference between the functional sort of management and the regions, a lot of our regional function will be coterminous with the regional learning and skills partnership. So, working with the North Wales Economic Ambition Board in north Wales and the regional learning and skills partnerships in south-west Wales is very much a key driver for us, but mindful of the fact that, for example, Jobcentre Plus isn't coterminous with that. It has a different regional structure. The schools improvement service, the Education Achievement Service, has a different structure as well. But we will be agile enough to work in those different structures, because we work across all 22 unitary authorities.

And then, finally, mindful of the Welsh Government's 1 million Welsh speaker target, do you have the capacity, currently, to provide sufficient guidance through the medium of Welsh?

We have around about 15 per cent of our staff, or 15.5 per cent, in delivery who would identify as very proficient and capable of delivering services through the medium of Welsh. As you'd expect, the majority of those staff are in north and west Wales. Where we have struggled a little bit is south Wales, in terms of particularly schools, but what we've been doing recently, because we've been able to actively recruit careers advisers for the first time since we were formed in 2013, we've deliberately targeted Welsh speakers. So, we've recently employed three Welsh-speaking careers advisers. We failed to appoint for south Gwynedd/north Powys, so we've readvertised and we're going through the selection process for a suitable adviser there.

So, what we're doing is positively encouraging people with the skills, who are Welsh speakers, to come into the organisation. So, I'm pretty confident that we will keep on top of that and offer the service bilingually.

Three out of the 15 new—well, is that not right—are Welsh speakers.

Well, three out of the 20.

Three out of the 20. That's still—

It'll be four out of the 20.

Right. Right, okay. That's still significantly below the number of Welsh speakers amongst the cohort of young people that you're dealing with.

I think it's worth qualifying that they consider themselves as proficient enough in Welsh to speak Welsh on a delivery basis—the 15 per cent. There are considerably more who are Welsh speakers to some degree, but it's those that class themselves as proficient enough. 

Interestingly, for example, we've got three advisers who were only English speakers. They learnt to speak Welsh and we supported them to become proficient and they now often work through the medium of Welsh. So, we are prepared to invest in language skills. We encourage a bilingual community. We obviously work to the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 and standards and we're subject to the Welsh Language Commissioner scrutinising us on that. I am confident that we're very focused on bilingual services. The challenge, obviously, is making sure that we also offer our services internally bilingually. Again, we've been addressing that as well.

We recently did a skills matrix of the board members as part of our recruitment. We have a number of board members that speak Welsh to varying degrees, but we have one board member in particular who is our Welsh-speaking champion. So, at board level as well, we make sure that it's certainly on the agenda and we challenge the executive to make sure that we have the Welsh language covered.

Okay, no more questions from Members. In that case, can I thank you both for giving us evidence this morning? I'm very grateful for your time.

Thank you for this second opportunity as well—

Yes, thank you very much.

—that's very appreciated. Thank you.

In that case, I move to item 6 and ask Members if they're happy to note the papers in front of us. Yes, Members are content. In that case, I close the meeting.