National Assembly for Wales

Can I nominate Siân Gwenllian?

And me.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. Thank you, Siân. If I could just reiterate good wishes to Bethan following her nasty accident. I hope that she will be back in committee as soon as she is able. I'm joined this morning by Steve Davies, who is the director of the education division at the Welsh Government, and Bethan Webb, who is the deputy director of the Welsh language division.

Thank you, Siân. It's been absolutely imperative, as the Welsh Government approaches this budget in a continued atmosphere of significant austerity, to try to align monetary resources alongside the policy aspirations of the Welsh Government. In particular of relevance, I suspect, to this committee is, first of all, funding for arts and music within the education department and also the Welsh in education department as the Government seeks to ensure that we reach the ambitious target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050. Of course, education is absolutely crucial in being able to reach that figure.

With regard to arts and music in education, we recognise that that provides a unique contribution to a young person's ability to imagine, create and communicate, and to help them grow as individuals. Despite the significant challenges the education budget is facing, we have committed to continue to work in partnership with the arts council around our Creative Learning through the Arts programme. We've also been able to use what resources we have been able to identify to support the implementation of the previous Minister's work in regard to music in education and the task and finish group that was established to look at how better arts, and music in particular, in education could be supported. So, those have been the guiding principles around that particular aspect.

With regard to Welsh-medium education and the Welsh in education plan, again, it's about being able to, in partnership with Plaid Cymru, identify, for instance, that early years education and the establishment and support of cylchoedd meithrin are crucial to being able to create that bedrock for language support, through to using the resources to support the acquisition of greater skills for teachers in the system, and being able to incentivise teachers who can teach through the medium of Welsh to come into the system, as well as looking at developing adequate resources to support Welsh-medium education and bilingual education. So, we've been very careful to take that approach.

I think what we've been able to do is try to look at ensuring—. It's important to note that although we have a particular budget line, we cannot divorce Welsh-medium education from education spending and investment in the round. So, for instance, the education improvement grant is used to support the development of education through in-school training and through strengthened cluster leadership, and to support clusters to develop transition so that we ensure that there's a continuum—that children who begin their education in Welsh go on to secondary school to continue to study through the medium of Welsh.

We will be using some of our resources in the raising schools standards budget expenditure line, for instance, to appoint a lead in each regional consortium who will have professional responsibility for driving through some of the changes that we—the step change we need, really, in the system, in particular the quality of language teaching in the English-medium sector. I think we've got fantastic, high-performing schools in the Welsh-medium sector, but how we bolster bilingual schools and how we bolster the quality of Welsh language teaching in both the primary and the secondary sector in English-medium schools is crucial. So, in an ideal world we'd have more money, and I'd love to have more money, but I'm confident that we've been able to see an increase at a time when things are very difficult. Overall we are seeing small, modest increases in our ability to support this agenda.

Diolch. Unsurprisingly, Cabinet Secretary, it's the effect of arts and music in particular within the education system as a whole that we're interested in, and whether the level of investment in that is producing outcomes that you'd expect for it. Now, I appreciate it's very difficult sometimes to follow the money in terms of monitoring how successful it's been, but before I ask you about what's in this year's budget, can you tell me a little bit about how you've monitored and assessed the effectiveness of previous budgets and how the evidence acquired from that has affected how you've thought about next year's budget—what's worked and what hasn't, basically?

I think what we have to recognise is that to develop this agenda, we have to work in partnership, primarily with local authorities. You'll be aware from the recommendations of the task and finish group in terms of how better we can support this agenda—many of the recommendations were actually for Welsh local government. We have tried to use our resources to prompt action in local government and help support them take action. So, for instance, you'll be aware that we've been able to identify some resources for the purchase of musical instruments. So, we identified £220,000. We said we'd make that money available for the purchase of instruments if, in return for that investment, Welsh local government would establish the database, so that we would know where the instruments were and local authorities could share them between them—

And has that worked?

Yes. I mean, slowly but surely, Welsh local government—they've identified a common software system. They're moving local authorities onto that common database system to establish that database. We were able to, in this financial year, reimburse local authorities for their support last year of the ensemble. So, they had spent resources in the previous year. We said, 'Look, we'll spend some of our money to reimburse you for that investment as long as you agree to continue that investment in this financial year'. And they have agreed to do that. So, it's a bit of a—kind of working in partnership. We're using the resources that we've got to try and elicit action from those people out on the ground. Steve, if you want to add something.

We want to focus on creative learning through the arts and investment in that area, particularly the joint investment with the arts council. And there are clear, tangible benefits that are emerging in terms of participation and engagement. If you look at the number of schools involved and the case studies that are on our repository for teachers on Hwb, they are demonstrating the impact of focusing on creativity through the arts on aspects of literacy and numeracy and across the curriculum. We haven't got those tangible outcomes yet in terms of impact on standards—clearly there will some lag in that area—but in terms of the level of engagement and investment in the arts, at a time when schools are sometimes driven to focus more narrowly on literacy and numeracy, we're really heartened by the number of schools, particularly the number of teachers, who are engaging with this programme with the arts council.

And when would you expect to have those tangible results? Because you're quite right; I mean, I understand there'd be a time lag built in, but you must have some sort of destination time in mind.

Obviously we have an independent evaluation set up to monitor the impact of that for the longer term. I'm not quite sure when we would expect the evaluation report, because the programme is over a number of years, so we haven't got to the end of the programme. But the data is all being captured and we have an evaluation programme in.

Of course, that programme goes beyond music and it covers the arts more generally. For me, one of the most inspiring parts of the Creative Learning through the Arts programme—and it coincides with the development of our new curriculum—is the issue of experience. How do children get to experience the arts, especially children that, perhaps, because of circumstances at home, wouldn't usually get to have that broader arts experience? The Go and See element of the Creative Learning through the Arts programme, I think, is one of the most positive things, and there have been significant numbers of children and schools participating in that and applying for grants in that area. So, in Gwynedd, 1,747 children have been able to go and and see something as a result of this scheme, and some of the feedback is amazing. 

Suzy, I know that you would know Maesyrhandir school in Newtown—you'd know that school. They took the children to see a live theatre production of Gangsta Granny, and if any of you have got children, you will know about Gangsta Granny, although it's got a very sad ending. So, there's a live theatre production of Gangsta Granny. The school used that to get the children reading the book before they went to see the live performance, doing creative writing, so the literacy element built in before, and then they went to see the live performance. I just want to give you this quote from the school:

'The value of this theatre visit is immeasurable. For some children it was their first experience of a live performance. One child asked "how did the people get out of the telly?" It was a very positive experience from a social, creative, inspiring point of view.'

That's the value of being able to tie an experience into developing literacy and numeracy and creative thinking skills within the classroom. But if Members would like a breakdown of the numbers of schools that have participated by a local authority area and the children that have participated, we would be very happy to supply that to you.

Thank you for that. I'm going to have to keep this to the budget a little bit today—not the good news that we're hearing. Of course, one of the observations about events like that is on their long-term legacy and I think we agree the point; we need a bit of time to see how the money spent so far has impacted on attainment, if I can put it like that. Does that mean that it's too early to use that information to inform the decisions you've made for this year and next year in the budget? And the £2 million for—I can't remember what it's called now—the music in schools initiative; how are you going to monitor that, and what outcomes are you hoping for beyond somebody having a good time at the theatre on that one occasion? What are you expecting from that money? 

For the music in schools money, we expect the local authorities to have more instruments available, so there is tangible—you know, how many more instruments have been able to get into the system, will we have created that national database that the task and finish group wanted to see, and will the councils continue to support the ensemble so that creates that route into performance. And so far, the indications are—

So, is this mainly about continuing with something that's already been decided? It's not a criticism; it's just—

Yes, and also to implement the findings of the task and finish group.

Okay, right. Because I think we've heard evidence that that's been a little dilatory so far. But that's the purpose of it.

That's the purpose: to use that as our guiding principle. And indeed, we've identified, through partnership with Plaid Cymru, an additional £1 million for music in schools. We're currently evaluating for the next financial year how that will be spent. The committee's work in this particular area—. I know the report isn't out yet, but we would hope to use the evidence from this committee to help us identify how that additional £1 million resource can be spent in the new financial year.

Okay, thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

Just a couple of questions on the database and the evaluation aspect. I wonder if you could just give a bit more detail about how that is working and what the objective of it is. Is it just about numbers, or are you looking more deeply into what those sorts of numbers and that evaluation mean?

With regard to the database, you'll be aware that that was a recommendation from the task and finish group. As I said, we've used some resource to be able to purchase some additional instruments on the basis that local government would establish the database. As I said, the WLGA have indicated that they're migrating all local authorities onto the same inventory management software, so that database will be created, and we continue to push the WLGA on that particular issue and also on the fact that the task and finish group urge them to collectively come up with a new system of music in education, and we continue to have those conversations. With the Creative Learning through the Arts programme in conjunction with the arts council, that will be a formal evaluation that looks not just at numbers, but impact and outcomes for that, because we need to be able to demonstrate that, by creating those opportunities, that has an impact on school standards. So, it's not just about children having a good time; it is about how we can use that particular resource and that particular approach to education to have an impact on school standards for children.

Yes. I suppose what follows on from that, then, is really this: for the past couple of decades, the trend seems to have been basically the better-off families' kids play music, have instruments, have lessons, have tutoring, and working-class kids increasingly don't. That certainly is reflected, for example, in the constituencies I'm very familiar with. So, it's not just a question in terms of numbers or increasing numbers, but the actual far broader social representation of engagement. Is that part of the intention of the data and the evaluations?  

Yes, that would form part of the evaluation because one of the stated aims of the Creative Learning through the Arts programme was to address our commitment to equality of opportunity, so that would form part of the formal evaluation: who was taking advantage of this scheme and what the impact has been. Because we're very clear that equity of provision is at the heart of our approach to education. So, we also need to remember the pupil development grant that is available to schools. I've seen schools use that to ensure that children who, perhaps, couldn't have instrumental tuition or access to music activity, they use their pupil development grant to ensure that happens. In one school in Wrexham, they'd used pupil development grant to purchase their own set of violins. The headteacher said to me, 'I knew I'd cracked it, Kirsty, when three of these children asked for their own violin for Christmas.' So, instilling in them at a very young age, giving them that first opportunity. So, PDG is an important part of the ability for schools to respond to that agenda, and this year, the pupil deprivation grant will be worth over £90 million, so even in the toughest of times the size of that grant and number of children that are covered by that grant increases.

Couple of questions just on the Creative Learning through the Arts because that's in a school for two years, I understand. What, then, is being done to make sure that there's a legacy to that, so that it's baked into the culture of the school, rather than just funding trips for a couple of years? 

Okay, the Go and See is just one element of the Creative Learning through the Arts programme. Much of the programme is dedicated to supporting staff, so the legacy is developing the teacher's capacity to use different techniques to engage children in day-to-day activities within the classroom. So that's the lasting legacy: it's about giving teachers a different perspective and trying new opportunities. Creative Learning through the Arts also gives the opportunity for school-to-school working, so then that good practice is disseminated from different schools. The Go and See element is just one part of it, but it is also about supporting teachers in the profession, and that's the lasting legacy.

And how will the evaluation you're doing inform the development of the new curriculum?

Well, creativity is one of the core purposes of the curriculum, so it's absolutely aligned to developing skills within the schools to be able to support that new curriculum because creativity, as I said, is one of the outcomes that we want from the new curriculum. Steve, do you want to add? 

Just quickly to add to the second question, the lead creative schools who are a core part of this are working with the pioneer schools to ensure that what's being learned, and the legacy for the—. Every school has to have an action plan aligned to the work they're doing in terms of creativity, so they will be measuring that impact. The requirement for them to work across a cluster of schools means it's embedded more widely, but critically for us, this gives us a strong foundation for the expressive arts area of learning experience. So, the team of pioneer schools who are working on the new curriculum, we're ensuring that those, at the right time, engage with the lead creative schools to make sure that that learning is embedded. So, when we have the curriculum for the whole of Wales, they will have captured that learning and built that continuity in.

That sounds primarily like a local arrangement. So, if the lead creative schools are engaging with the pioneer schools at a cluster level, how are you ensuring there's a rigour to the whole-system experience and the evaluation is being properly applied?

That comes down to a mixture of different ways in which we monitor the performance of schools and the original consortia who are co-ordinating a lot of this cluster working and pioneer school models. So, it's done on a local level within local communities, but that is scaled up then to a regional consortia view of how those things are working together.

Yes, there are officials within Welsh Government that have responsibility for this programme who have structured relationships in terms of working with the Arts Council for Wales. So, there's a plan and a requirement around that work. There's then a regional level of planning and responsibility, and then there's a school requirement to have detailed plans for delivery.

Could I just go back to a couple of questions on music? One is that you mentioned the £220,000 for local authorities. We've had evidence that I think we've discussed before that that will effectively allow each council to buy a harp. It's a welcome amount of money, for sure, but it's modest, necessarily. If you're tying that to a requirement to invest in a new database system—. We've had evidence from the Welsh Local Government Association about how complex and challenging that's going to be and how much resource that's going to take, not just to set it up but to maintain it, and the view we heard is that there may be better uses for that money—for example, maintaining instruments already in the system that are sitting in cupboards and not being used.

I appreciate you're following the recommendations of the task and finish group, but the subsequent evidence we've had is that, in practice, that may not be the best thing to do. So, in enforcing that recommendation and tying it to funding, are you sure you're doing the right thing?

Well, as I said, the task and finish group was absolutely clear in their recommendations that access to instruments was a problem—

Indeed.

—especially for schools in areas where there were high levels of deprivation and parents couldn't afford to have an instrument. What was also very clear was that, having invested in that resource, that resource needed to be a mobile resource. So, rather than something sitting in a cupboard in Caerphilly when it could be used in Blaenau Gwent, there needed to be a mechanism to move those instruments around the country. Otherwise, we could end up with people having instruments that weren't being used in one local authority that were desperately needed somewhere else. So, that was a very clear recommendation.

I agree, it's a modest amount of money, but we're in modest times, and this is a statement of our intent to support this agenda as best we can from this department. We're also, of course, doing our musical instrument amnesty, which will be formally launched across Wales on the twentieth, next week, based on the little pilot we had here. That's attracting a huge amount of attention, with a lot of enthusiasm from the public. Again, it's about raising the profile of this important area. So, you know—

That's an excellent initiative, but it almost goes to prove the point that I was trying to make, which is that there are existing instruments in the system that, with a bit of tender loving care, could be brought back into use. So, might it not be better to use that £10,000 for a local authority to do that, rather than purchase new instruments and spend money on a database?

Well, as I said, the task and finish group was very clear that there were not enough instruments in the system. We're trying to use a bit of Welsh Government money to get more instruments into the system, and we are trying to use the public's generosity to get more instruments into the system. But, they were also very clear that one of the difficulties was making sure that those instruments were then used, and that was not happening in a way that they saw as fit, and that's why we are trying to support that work—

I understand that.

Because of the agreement with Plaid Cymru, we will have an additional £1 million to look at this particular area. I'll be quite honest: we haven't decided yet how that money will be resourced in the next financial year. We will be looking to this committee's report to take some guidance, following continuing discussions with the WLGA, but I have to say that, in the meetings that I've had with the leader of the WLGA about this subject, your concerns have not been raised with me.

Okay. It's just that you did say at the beginning that you're keen to learn from—

Yes.

I take your point that we haven't yet produced a report, but the evidence we've had is fairly clear and the evidence suggests to me that it may be worth looking again at this area to make sure that this small amount of money is being spent to the best—notwithstanding what the task and finish group report said, but in terms of the subsequent evidence that’s come to light.

And that's why, although we have this allocation for next year as a result of the budget deal with Plaid Cymru, we have not, at this stage, been able to say exactly how that money will be spent, because we're sitting back, waiting to hear from the committee. Because, otherwise, you'd have done all that work and—

We need to get a move on.

Can I ask just one final question? The last time you came before us I think we discussed the endowment that you were setting up with the £1 million, and we asked you to reflect on the new arrangements with the ensembles. I think it was National Youth Arts Wales, if memory serves me correctly—I could be wrong about the name, or the title of the new organisation—which are also being set up at arm's length in order to generate and lever in funding to provide music. I think you—from memory—agreed to reflect on whether or not having two separate funds, trying to achieve similar things, was a good idea. Have you had a chance to think about that in the light of the budget allocation?

We are pressing ahead with our commitment to establish the endowment. That work is being carried out by the arts council. We've had no representations made to us that the establishment of these two separate schemes is problematical. The announcement of the endowment has been welcomed, and we expect to formally launch the endowment with the arts council in January.

Of course. If there is any information at all with regard to any aspects that we've not been able to cover in this short time, we'll be more than happy to supply them.

Hi, I'm Peter Owen. I'm the head of the arts branch, and at the moment I'm also the acting head of the museuums, archives and libraries division.

I'm director of culture, sport and tourism and my directorate covers museums and libraries, Visit Wales, Cadw, the arts, sport, and various other bits connected with the whole portfolio, really. So, that's me. We're about 400 people within the civil service.  

Good morning. My name's Dean Medcraft—director of finance operations for the economy, skills and natural resources group, which covers culture, basically.

Thank you. I'm encouraged by some of the comments, Minister, that you've just made. Of course, you can't buy culture but you can enhance, support and encourage it and encourage its development. The budget, as you say, has sort of flatlined, but it is a difficult budget nevertheless. What do you think are the main challenges of the budget? 

Well, there's a challenge for the institutions but— . They know this—this is no secret, the context they've been working in, but it is a better context than it was in that there hasn't been further financial reduction. I'm thinking in particular of the arts council budget. So, they do know where they are now and they should be able to plan within that. And I will be as sensitive as I can to any particular and special developments. I'm very excited about the Swansea bid, and I have said to them in Swansea, including in a very important discussion with the chair of the committee of Swansea International Festival, Mr Mal Pope, last night when we were both at the same event at the wonderful production over the road, Tiger Bay The Musical—I've told them that I think it's important that we do invest as a nation in the second city and the gateway to the west in the same way as we have, or at least proportionately in the same way as we have, invested in our national institutions in Cardiff. And the same thing applies in the north. Now, that is going to be difficult in the current circumstances, but we have to be ambitious and encouraging because participation in culture brings, as we've already discussed, benefits that are not quantifiable in simplistic terms. 

Thank you for that, Minister. I look forward to welcoming you to Ponty in the Park in the summer. Part of the direction in the Government's remit to arts bodies, and particularly to the arts council,  in the past has been about barriers to participation. Of course, one of the challenges is that culture and arts mean different things to different people, and there are all sorts of different perceptions as to what's important. But one of the key objectives was greater access to the arts by social groups. That was a key priority. Does that remain a key priority, and what do you see are the challenges around pursuing that direction? Because there are many pulls on a tight budget, which can lead away from that.

It remains a priority, and, not only that, it's a priority with which I will continue to be associated and remind the receiving and the funding bodies of what that implies. They do understand these arguments, but it is important that we create a climate for supporting culture that is nearer to the order of supporting a particular part of what I regard as culture, which is sporting culture. I want to see artistic culture and what we keep calling creativity and creative Wales—I'm not sure what exactly that is going to mean in the future, because I regard the whole of Wales as creative in different ways. So, we have to make sure in our vocabulary and our use of these terms that we don't put people off participating in culture because they have this idea it's not for them, and that's part of the disincentive that we still have with some groups, and that's why pursuing a strategy that involves education, which involves extensive school and youth visits to all our institutions of culture, our larger national institutions, is an essential part of what we do. Jason, you wanted to come in.  

Yes. I think there's a point that possibly addresses both questions, really. If you talk of broad challenges first in the sector, I think the Minister's already touched on some of the pressures that are out there, and one of the themes that we've been really trying to work with the national institutions on over the last couple of years, and this is certainly going to be a priority going forward, is: how do we make them more financially resilient, how do we help them increase their income from non-public sources? There's a great appetite out there now to really get on board and take that forward. And I think one of the ways in which they will do that is by broadening out that access to these services.

I can speak with confidence from the Cadw side, and the way in which we've really—. Predominantly, the main way in which we've improved income in Cadw is we've broadened out the markets that we're trying to attract. We've really tried to attract a family audience, whereas, for a number of years, it could be argued that we were going down a particular segment, and we felt that that wasn't really opening out our access. So, we've kind of widened the horizon really. We've got more families coming through the doors, more young people, and that, in turn, is also helping better sustainability of the organisation, because there's more money coming in as a result of that, with widening the access. So, I think, if you deal with the second point, you can also help with the first point. 

In the most recent remit letter, of course, there has been a greater focus on the need for partnerships, for seeking other forms of financial support, engagements and so on, and I doubt that there isn't an Assembly Member or a Member of Parliament around or a councillor around that isn't engaged in those sorts of applications. We know who all the bodies are, the main people that we go to and so on. But, of course, one of the dangers from that is that the issue of social access to arts— or the community arts, really, I suppose, is what I'm really getting at—begins to get pushed back. What is the focus now in terms of the priority of community arts per se? Because there is a perception that the community arts is a second best within the funding of arts.

No, it's a community that generates the elite, and that applies equally in sport as it does in artistic endeavour in my view. And, if you look at the investment that has been made by the private sector in Wales, a lot of that has been directed towards youth theatre, youth music, and that's a trend that I would want to continue, because it encourages participation. We were very fortunate to be able to join the good people of Swansea and Mumbles in that magnificent church in Oystermouth last Sunday, when Tim Rhys-Evans took his youth choir, Only Boys Aloud, to perform there. And I'm a huge supporter of that movement, because of what it has done. It is, internationally, in my view, to be compared with any of the sistema in orchestral music in parts of Latin America, or, indeed, any of the other initiatives, because it has taken a very Welsh institution, the male voice choir, and turned it into a participation across the social boundaries. And that's the kind of thing I would like to see in the rest of the arts. I know Peter wants to come in. 

Thanks, Minister. Perhaps if I could just add to that, I think—on your point about the focus on community arts, and the extent to which it's perhaps being seen as the poor relation, I think we, and our colleagues at the arts council, would certainly feel that that's not (a) desirable, or (b) happening. I guess there are two strands to it. One strand is to provide direct support to community arts organisations like Valleys Kids, Valley and Vale Community Arts—those organisations whose whole raison d'être is to work closely within communities and to turn people on to the arts. But I think the other focus, obviously, is to make sure that all the organisations in the arts portfolio that the arts council funds, including the big beasts like the Welsh National Opera and National Theatre Wales et cetera are running community engagement programmes as a condition of their funding. And that's something that the arts council is putting a lot of focus on, and I suppose you've got very good examples of that—for example, the WNO, the work they did on the Caia Park estate in Wrexham a few years back, and, obviously, National Theatre Wales, their whole raison d'être really, or their whole modus operandi, I should say, is about taking the arts to the public and involving them, and obviously productions like The Passion in Port Talbot really exemplified that. You had literally thousands of local people getting involved, many of which perhaps would never have gone into a theatre. So, I think it's those two strands really. 

As part of the communications strategy, because communications within the arts is absolutely fundamental, and I take the point—the arts council funding for the Cory Band and the work that's done in communities there—but very few know about it. Is there a problem in terms of the way in which resources are used, but also the way in which it is encouraged within the public—you know, that people are made aware of some of these issues?

Certainly, it's part of my mission to make sure that that happens. In that sense—. There are aspects of what we do—the eisteddfodic tradition, the local concert tradition of all the choirs that we have—all those are socially participatory events and, increasingly in our school system and through the learning through art exercises that we support, those then create an awareness of the usefulness of artistic activity for young pupils at an early age. We've got to strengthen that, I think, substantially in an ongoing way. That does mean participation across departments. It may also mean in future that we do look at using the arts, as I've argued in the past using the environment, in a way that is a very important tool for preventive health, especially in the mental health agenda and in community well-being generally.

Joyce.

Congratulations, Dafydd.

Thank you, Joyce.

It was a point that you last stated that I wanted to pick up on: using the arts as a force for change. Next week, on Tuesday, along with the annual White Ribbon events, there are two things happening, and Coedcae Comprehensive School have produced a video—from Llanelli—using the arts, using expression, to send that wider message out. Now that you're Minister, I hope that, a week on Friday, you can come to Harlech Castle, because we're holding an event in Harlech Castle with a local school, with a local choir, with the symbolism, working with Cadw to deliver a message through the community and the wider community. So, I think there's almost a rethinking of what arts are. I recognised that in organising these. Cadw recognised it in coming on board. The children will be singing and they've produced their own artwork to send their message. So, I think there are different levels of thinking about what art and what culture is.

I couldn't agree with you more. I believe that these castles should be populated by the citizens of Wales far more than they are now. I would love to see far more of our visitors being able to stay in these castles, because what are they for if we don't enjoy them today?

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Just before we leave this, £250,000 has been allocated additionally—I think it is additional—to the Fusion programme. Can you just confirm that it is additional rather than that that is all they are getting?

Yes, it is.

Who is going to be responsible for deciding how that money is spent? Is it going to be done at a very local level or is some direction going to come from Government?

The intention that I have, certainly as a Minister, is to have a continual relationship, both at the local and the national level, with the funding bodies—without, as I said earlier, interfering in their priorities—to ensure that—. If a view is expressed to me, or information is brought to me, about a programme, people requiring it to be spent in a different way or to develop initiatives, then, obviously, it is essential that that should be listened to. We have partnerships delivering the various strategic cultural programmes. That includes the local authorities, communities organisations and also housing associations. I think there's a total—I think it was £210,000 that was already committed in 2018-19 to support this work. So, the total budget is of the order of £280,000, specifically on the Fusion aspect.  

Okay.

I think we'll double check and provide you with a note, Chair, if that's okay—

That's fine. It's to see if it's extra. yes?

—but my understanding is that it's not extra; that's the funding allocated for 2018-19. But we will provide you with a note just to—

I think Mr Medcraft knows. 

Two hundred and seventy thousand is in the baseline for 2017-18. It's been increased to £280,000 this year. So, it's not an additional £280,000, but it's £10,000 on top of the baseline for 2017-18.

Right, okay. That teaches me to pick up things from the press, doesn't it?

Can I just move on to the CyMAL institutions now? I'm less exercised about the loss in revenue funding because I'm also of the mind that some of these institutions could do more to raise their own revenue, but we can speak about that a bit later on. With the drop in capital, as the Chair said earlier, the reason it looks so terrible is because the national library and the national museum had a lot of money in the supplementary budget for reasons that they claimed were essential, yet the forecast is that both those institutions are going to underspend considerably. In order for us to have any confidence in budgeting from the Welsh Government's end, why did you give them so much money in the first place? Difficult for you to answer personally, I know.

Well, I've answered that already. As far as I'm concerned, I want a far better match between the proposed funding in budgets as they're being prepared and the outturn and the outcome, because what's the point of, as you say, public expenditure if it doesn't work like that? I think I would like to review the remit letter tradition of dealing with bodies like this and a much more effective way of monitoring within the priorities agreed by the arm's-length bodies or by the national institutions as they spend the funding that we give them that there will be outcomes that will be realised and that we are not put in a position where substantial funds end up being transferred to other budgets. And I can assure you that I don't want to lose a single euro from my current budget.

That wasn't quite my question, actually. It was to do with the fact that they were given an awful lot of money that they're obviously not going to spend. At some point, they must have asked for a significant amount of money and tried to prove it. So, I'm just looking for some reassurance from you, really, that that's going to be investigated—that, having asked for a certain amount of money, they weren't able to spend it. 

Yes, but where the money is not spent, it's been quickly moved over to other budgets, and that—

No, no. I understand that. I appreciate it's not just sitting in a pot not getting spent, but why did they ask for x amount of money and they were only capable of spending y?

Well, I can't answer that personally—

No, no. I accept, but—

—but it won't happen from now on, I can tell you that.

That's the reassurance I was after.

Okay, all right.

I can update you on that one. Yes, they did come to us. I think they came to us repeatedly—and I'm referring predominantly to the national museum and the national library—

Yes, those two.

—to say that there's a capital maintenance backlog, really, and there's some urgent things, big things, that they needed—

Yes, we accept that. Yes. 

—to work on. So, we responded to that and gave them, you know, an allocation that would help them address those needs. What we found throughout our rigorous monitoring of both institutions was that their ability to spend that and the need to go through quite lengthy procurement processes, actually, for some of the major works that they had to do, meant that, to be fair to them, they were realistic with us and said, 'Look, yes, we need the money, but now we've done the detailed diligence work to prepare what we need to do, we don't think that we're going to be able to spend that this financial year.' So, they came to us in a pragmatic way and said, 'Look, can we work with you to reprofile?' We were accepting of that, but, as the Minister said, and as you rightly pointed out, we are all over them in that sense to make sure that, when they come to us now, they've got the right team in place and the right procedures in place to be able to spend.

Okay, well—

Do you have the same robust procedures in place as well? It's not just about them having the procedures in place; it's about you monitoring.

Us within Government? Absolutely. 

Okay. I would be prepared to accept, actually, that they weren't able, because of the procurement process, if you like, to spend all the money that they needed to within that financial year. Nevertheless, the needs that they assessed as needing to be dealt with, some of those will still remain, though, and should be covered, usually, in the following financial year. Now, as you say, that money's been reprofiled and it's gone off to transport. Will the small amount of money—and it is very tiny now—be enough to cover the needs that they weren't able to deal with in this financial year?

My understanding of the position is that the £8 million for the library and the other £5.7 million reallocated to transport by the Cabinet Secretary will be repaid to the library budget in future when it's clear that the work can be completed and that the work is still necessary.

Okay, so it's just a year's lag that we're talking about, is it, effectively? The money's effectively going off to, as you say, transport for this coming year. It may be a bit late for them—

No, no, the budgeting systems are much improved from the days when I used to sit where you are trying to scrutinise the environment budget of the Government. The ability to reallocate resources in-year and between years is much improved.

All right. We'll watch out for that, I think, actually.

And therefore that is the understanding.

Where's the evidence for that in this particular instance?

I suppose by reviewing it mid term, and then we're talking supplementary budgets, there may have been a bit of reprioritisation, but Mr Medcraft's got something to say on this.

Fortunately, I look after the budgets for the entire economy and infrastructure MEG as well, so what we've agreed with the Cabinet Secretary is that the underspend or non-utilisation of that £8 million this year—the £5.7 million—we would allocate to transport projects, as we said. However, we've then ring-fenced that within the overall MEG to come back into libraries in future years. So, it's protected and it will come back in when they need the money. Again, I agree with you: it needs tighter control over looking at those profiles going forward, because that could have been lost to the system. Luckily, it wasn't, and, luckily, we've got transport systems that can spend the money now. However, we will pull that money back for future profiles to go back into the library, and that's been agreed.

Okay, it seems that transport, shall we say, can procure more quickly than libraries.

We've got hundreds of millions of pounds-worth of transport proposals.

Can I just ask why you aren't identifying projects within the department that are able to spend this money and why it had to go out to transport?

Because there were no capital projects within the proposals that we had.

That's surprising, given that Cadw—. We've heard from Jason Thomas before about the progress that Cadw's making on the ambitions they have. I'm surprised there wasn't anything able to be spent within Cadw or within the department to take up that money, rather than it being spent on roads.

I was just about to say that Cadw has been a wonderful generator of revenue for Government more generally.

Indeed. That was not my point, to be fair.

To be fair, we're talking capital here.

This is as it should be. 

It's an entirely separate point, with respect. I'm asking why it wasn't within the department, given Cadw's ambitions and plans for growth, and why there weren't projects that could utilise this funding. 

On Cadw, we've got a five-year capital expenditure programme for Cadw. We are fully programmed for the year. We have brought some additional projects in that wouldn't come above the threshold that would appear on this line here. We have a full pipeline of capital projects, including Neath abbey, as we've mentioned. 

I would've thought you could've brought it forward.

The nature of investment in the Cadw estate—it requires proper planning. So, when we come to ask for money to do things, we do it with full knowledge of how long it's going to take to defray that money. So, some of the big projects that we'd really like to do could take some significant time. We've got some really exciting projects that are going through planning up in Caernarfon, and we've got projects for Caerphilly. We've got projects all over the Cadw estate. 

I think the point has been made quite clearly here that the procedures need to be different and there needs to be a look at this. I think we'll have to move on and maybe come back to this area. I think maybe it is an area that we need to scrutinise further.

Okay—sorry, Lee. Can you tell me why it's going to cost £5 million to do two feasibility studies on the national art gallery and a football museum?

These are new projects that have been called for. The intention is that we will undertake the feasibility studies to ensure that such projects are viable and will be located in the appropriate places in response to the requests, as far as I'm concerned.

I've no objection to the feasibility work being done. I don't know how they're costed—how a feasibility study is costed.

The £5 million is not just for the feasibility studies. I think the wording is—perhaps we can provide a note on this—'for the development of the feasibility studies'. So, that's a capital allocation that would involve the development of the actual project on the back of the feasibility studies.

Okay, so it isn't literally just the research element of it. That's helpful. Are you going to be able to do that in-year, do you think?

The feasibility studies? Absolutely.

Well, the whole thing. Okay, that's fine.

Local museum services: I've only got two more questions here, on the local museum services review. This is an area I'm particularly interested in. A hundred thousand pounds has been allocated to developing some of the recommendations. Do you have time, in, sort of, 140 characters or fewer, to put a bit of meat on that bone. Which particular recommendations are you taking forward?

The key thing here is that we have to work regionally. We expect the local museums to operate and develop themselves in clusters, as it were, so that we will be able to make it attractive for people to visit these local museums serially; not just visit one, but visit a number within regions. And we've identified in particular south and west Wales for joint regional working, so that should bear fruit within the next—

How does the £100,000 facilitate that, then? Is it something again that's directed from Government or is it a pot of money that's given between the regions, to say, 'Right, here it is, sort it out yourselves'? I'm just curious how you've come to that figure really.

Well, we identified the priorities that come to us—. I've been the other end, obviously, trying to obtain funding from Government in the past. But those are identified and then prioritised and discussed in terms of delivery within the region so that there's effective sharing of the resource. Do you want to say something else on that?

Are they making bids for it? Or how's it going to work, really?

Again, this is detail we'll perhaps have to provide you a note on. It's work being taken from within the museums, archives and libraries division of ours, and it's further feasbility study work to see how we can actually do this on a long-term basis. You know, we've made some significant progress in regional working and you can see co-location of facilities like museums and libraries and other institutions working well. So, this is, 'How do we do that more extensively over the future?', but I think, if I get the team to do a note for you—.

Just a short note to say why £100,000 equals certain expected outcomes really, that's all.

And then finally from me, unless you particularly want to pursue the St Fagans question, the Thurley review. Now, there are a few recommendations in the Thurley review, and I'm quite curious to know, as a Minister new to the portfolio if you like: how much of the Thurley review are you going to be taking up, do you think? There is particularly the suggestion that, even though we've got free entry to museums, there's an argument for saying that special exhibitions should be charged for. Should we be doing more of that? I know it's happened already, but is that something that you want?

I'm pleased to tell you that I have read a draft of the Thurley review, and you have seen the executive summary. I referred to one particular great success already, which I'm very pleased about, in the north, but the intention is that we will publish within a matter of weeks. Now, don't ask me to say which week. I expect a proper debate about the recommendations. I have to tell you it's one of the best written reports to a public body that I've ever read, and I'm sure you will enjoy it when it appears.

Okay. Is it short and to the point?

It is substantial.

I will be less likely to enjoy it in that case.

You've put me in the invidious position because, although I believe in open government, I can't hand you my photocopy now, but I can tell you it will be published very soon.

Okay. And no spoilers from you today, I'm guessing, in any views you might have on its recommendations.

I can't operate like that because I want a proper discussion and I think it would be an appropriate subject, if there is time in the Assembly, for us to debate it, because I think it is important that we do debate more about our cultural policy and our sporting policy and our tourism policy more generally.

You won't find me arguing with that.

So that the public will understand what we are doing and will perhaps identify with some of the priorities that we're trying to push forward. I can't say any more, I'm sorry.

Diolch. That's fine.

I want to talk to you a little bit about the historic and natural environment—two things I know that are very close to your heart—and, in that respect, particularly about Cadw's planned capital investments, which we talked a little bit earlier about that, but we didn't expand on the links to income generation, although you alluded to it. If you would like to say some more—.

Well, I think the figures that we have from Cadw are quite amazing. I'm delighted with them. This has been developed through very imaginative work, a lot of it—for example, the Cadw Historic Adventures campaign and the attractiveness of this to young people, and the Cadw dragons and all the rest of it. I'm sure that we need to push forward with the digital interpretation at the sites in order to attract more and more visitors and to develop interest.

I will respond to one point about ticket prices. I think it is important to distinguish between free access and events—special events that are marketed as different from the general access. I certainly believe that Cadw, in terms of the success of its income generation, needs to be encouraged in continuing in that way.

Since we are referring to Cadw, you might also like to hear something about the position of Cadw. There was a debate about whether Cadw should remain in the Government. That decision has been taken; Cadw will continue to remain my responsibility as the relevant Minister, but it will be encouraged to work with greater flexibility and to build on its success as a commercially driven organisation, as well as a fine guardian of heritage.

On the capital side of it, I'll quickly take you back: three years ago, or two and a half years ago, there was a big commercial review done of Cadw, which looked at the whole way that we spend our budget and whether we can improve our income significantly to make it more sustainable. One of the recommendations in there was actually that we try to focus more of the capital investment budget on our top 10 sites in terms of admissions numbers, so we responded to that. We've been doing that for the last three years, and that's paying dividends. So, we put an investment into some of those sites, like I mentioned earlier—Conwy, Caernarfon, Caerphilly; I won't go through the top 10 but I can give you a note—and that's really working. Where that has led to some conflict, and I think it's worth touching on that, is in order to do that, we've had to really take a sharp edge in prioritising our capital money. The way the capital budget for Cadw was set up for a number of years was really kind of split in half. So, if I summarise it as being around £5 million, generally about half would go on grants and about half would go in terms of investment and maintenance of our own estate—the guardian sites that we are responsible and I am accountable for. What we've had to do over the last 18 months is we've had to taper down the grants programme to boost investment in our own estate to be able to make us more sustainable. That has, and will continue to have, an impact on those people who own listed buildings, who want to seek funding from us. We took that decision; it was on the back of the review. Where we are now is that that decision has paid off. We are more sustainable, so there is potential for us to remove those grants from cryogenic stasis and bring them back so that we can do more for the wider sector as well. So, I think comes to your point on how we prioritise the capital, really.

Yes, and I do congratulate you on the dragons and the innovative thinking. I think this is part of it. If we're going to move forward with thinking around budgets and income generation, which we're all going to have to do, then bringing in the new technologies into the pre-existing is pretty critical, and it's been done in Harlech—because I've seen it—very well. So, in terms of budget expenditure and forward thinking, are you working on more of that so that you become, as you say, self-sustaining, and therefore can put that money back into all the things that we've just talked about: the community that really need to understand and enjoy culture throughout Wales?

I think that we also need to encourage the other national organisations to learn from Cadw and to follow what Cadw has done, and I'm very keen to do that—that's the message to them.

And join up. And talking about joining up, there is a strategic partnership between Cadw and the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales, the national library and museums, and there was a report on the progress of that partnership. Have you got any further information that you can give us this morning about how those partnerships are working, particularly in light of budgetary constraints that everybody is working under?

Well, the partnership is identifying potential projects to take forward. We are especially interested in—and it's a great interest of mine—the skills development in the heritage sector. We lay great store on the involvement of the trade union side in that work and, indeed, in all our work. We can see that there is a case for pooling resources and budgets with some or all of our partners in developing that strategic partnership and, as I said, part of that is the extent to which all the partners can learn from one another how good practice in public sector commercially minded management can bring about change in the numbers and more development in the work that they do.

I can promise you that I have no plans whatsoever to either retire or add to the number of public bodies we currently have in Wales. The message is that people have to work together from now on in a far more concerted way, and we're determined to do that. 

If I could just repeat one line I think I've given to this committee previously, this partnership is for life, not just for Christmas. We've been going for around eight months now and we are making real progress. I'll reiterate the point I made here to you before, which is that the big thing with this partnership is that we've got the senior representatives from each of these organisations and the senior negotiating officers from the trade unions around the table on a pretty much monthly basis. The relationship is getting really strong and many good things, I really do believe, are going to come on the back of that. We've got some genuine progress on the skills front, as the Minister said. There are already a number of groups looking at how we can take things forward there, because the challenges are similar for all the national institutions. Also, we're really looking at how we can use, really, the breathing space, I would say, that this budget settlement has given the national institutions for the next two years to build now to make us more resilient going forward. We've got two years of almost grace, really, to get things right, so the proof will be, I think, in two years. Let's see how the partnership has done then. 

When we talk about skills and moving forward and legacy, a large part of the skills agenda within projects, certainly capital projects within Cadw sites, will be things like stonemasonry, and they're real skills that are being lost—

And carpentry—really good carpentry. 

So, just for myself, because I'm only a sub here this morning, is that built in so that we are, on those projects, futureproofing them so we are leaving some of those skills behind? So, in other words, are there apprenticeships being thought about so that the next generation are having an opportunity? Because that's a real impact of a good budget, as far as I'm concerned. 

Can I really thank you for that question, because it is not always we get the opportunity to speak about that team? They're known as Cadwraeth within Cadw. There are just under 30 people now, actually. You've touched on a really relevant point because that workforce is extremely skilled. It's predominantly stonemasons, but we do have some joiners in there as well. We've got a workforce plan that recognises that we've got to get a pipeline of people coming through. One thing that the Minister touched on is the future of Cadw and the fact that Cadw needs more flexibility going forward. That's great for us because it means that we've got more bandwidth, really, to bring more apprentices in.

The other thing that I would touch on is that, about three months ago, I, alongside the chief executive of English Heritage, Historic Scotland and the construction body for the UK, signed a joint skills partnership agreement which really cemented—or lime pointed—all these things into an agreement, and I'd be happy to share that agreement with the committee, because I think it really touches on a lot of the things you said.

Absolutely. Well, that's fantastic. My nephew actually came through that system in Scotland—so that's fantastic.

My final question, I suppose, is on the resourcing of the heritage system. The Country Land and Business Association described a

'fundamental and steadily-worsening mismatch between the current heritage protection system and its resourcing.'

Would you like to make any comments on that? 

Well, this touches on the relationship between our budget and our activities and the planning system. You've heard me on the planning system before, and obviously I'm not the planning Minister, but there is a relationship that has been established between Cadw and the Welsh Local Government Association to see whether there's greater collaboration possible in the delivery of the conservation services across local authorities. I'm very keen to see the kind of collaboration that is happening now regionally—I would say especially in the north, but these things are beginning to happen generally throughout Wales—whereby the planning authorities, through a memorandum of understanding and various other ways have been using their resources more effectively. We will encourage that, and I will certainly discuss it with the planning Minister so that we can see what we can do further.

Thank you.

Do you want to give us the figures on the ticket comparisons you've been researching? 

Thank you, Minister. Some committee Members may remember me quite passionately going into this the last time I was in front of you. I believe our monuments are up there with the best in the world, and if you look at the admissions prices, we've tiered our admissions prices. There are three tiers to it. I'll quickly say that we haven't agreed those prices for next year yet; that's in deliberation at the moment. But if you look at our tier 1 monuments, and that's Conwy and Caernarfon—and Caerphilly is pretty much close to being in that, based on admission numbers—it's £8.95 for entry to those sites. If you look at comparable castles—

Not for next year, no. Not yet. 

Diolch. I'd just like to add a couple of questions on Cadw before I turn to the media. Just to ask you to clarify the thinking of how exactly Cadw can be encouraged to have greater flexibility while remaining within Government—how can that be done, practically?

The discussion has already begun. I've already had an initial discussion with the officials responsible for Cadw. The whole drive of where I'm trying to get to is that I do believe that it is possible to have public enterprise—public sector enterprise— on sites owned by the public, which can be as effective in its marketing, in its ticketing and its attractiveness for visitors as anything in the private sector. 

Sure. I'm just interested in the practicalities—for example, will they be able to recruit from outside the civil service?

Of course they will, for expertise. And that happens now.

They can routinely recruit from outside the civil service.

I thought that—[Inaudible.]

We're allowed to externally advertise. Anybody can apply for external adverts, and then they come into the civil service when they join. What I could say is that we—

Right. You're not required, first of all, to look internally to fill a post.

If I could come onto that briefly—we'll publish the business case that explored the decision to remain in Government in the coming weeks. That will then set out the broad 10 recommendations for why it would be better in, and how greater flexibility will help us. At the moment that is one of the constraints, really. So, if we need to get, say, a stonemason—and we touched on stonemasons earlier on—generally, recruitment rules within the civil service will mean that you do go internal first: you explore your internal workforc, and if you don't find a successful candidate, then you go external. We've already had some freedom in the last 12 months that says, 'Actually, Cadw is different'— it's got a commercial enterprise side to it, it's got very specialist skills, so there is predominantly an argument that says you can go straight to external. This business case will sort of explore that further.

Predominantly?

Yes, predominantly. Sometimes—

What does that mean?

It means that—. We've got a number of specialist skills in Cadw—not only stonemasons, we've got architects—

That just applies to specialist skills, does it?

Maybe we'll give you a note to go into more detail—[Inaudible.]

Just say you wanted to take on a marketing person, for example—

For a marketing person, generally, we'd look internally first because we've got a large marketing team, whereas if it's an archaeologist—

Let me just tell you, I want the best stonemasons in Wales—

I'm not talking about stonemasons, I'm talking about marketing people because there's—

Okay, well, you started with stonemasons—

No, I didn't. With respect, Jason Thomas did. I'm just not convinced that you're going to have the same freedom and flexibility to—what was the phrase—explore greater responsibility within the confines of the civil service. Maybe the committee will want to return to this once we see your paper.

Well, if I'm unable to get satisfaction, I won't sign it off. It's very simple. That's what Ministers do.

Sure. I'll look forward to seeing the detail of that.

Okay, we'll come back to this issue.

Excellent, thank you.

Just briefly in terms of your other point in terms of capital spend, just in terms of the way the programme management happens within the department, because you mentioned that the grants to private owners of historic properties have had to be squeezed in order to prioritise your own works—in other departments—Jason Thomas, you've worked previously in transport—obviously, they have a pipeline of what they call 'shovel-ready projects' that are ready to go if they're able to hoover up money from other departments, as, clearly, transport have done this year in your case. Given that you have this ambitious forward programme of works, why don't you have shovel-ready projects that you can use to soak up underspend?

We're getting close to having shovel-ready projects. Part of the redevelopment of the organisation over the last number of years has been to get us to that position. We're not quite there yet—I'll admit that—but I do believe we will be. What we have now is a five-year capital investment plan. It's called a quinquennial inspection programme, which looks at our entire estate and risks the conservation status of each estate on a 1 to 5 basis. So, we're getting far more—[Inaudible.]—shovel-ready, but the nature of the estate means it's not quite like transport. We still require listed building consent, even though we'll list things ourselves, and we still need to schedule monument consent to do things, and that's—[Inaudible.] 

Sure, but I heard the Minister say that never again does he want to see the position where money is taken from his budget to go into other departments. So, as part of achieving that for this time next year, I think it would be useful to see the progress you make in that regard.

Just going on to the issue of the media, just to ask the Minister—you're in a fortunate position, in terms of the media forum, of not being overly burdened by your predecessor's commitments. You have a bit of a free hand—

I'm not sure about that, actually.

Well, perhaps you could update us.

Certain commitments have been indicated.

Right. They haven't been shared with us.

Haven't they? Well, there have been a few issues here, of course. The media forum—and I have not had an opportunity to discuss this yet with the Cabinet Secretary, for obvious reasons—the idea is that this will provide further advice on the policy for media and broadcasting. It's not anticipated that there will be any additional cost, because the members of the forum will not be remunerated.

I will speak with you quite frankly, as I intend to do in all my responsibilities—I'm not yet convinced that this is a valuable initiative in terms of the development of broadcasting and media policy generally, for which I have responsibility. I'm not convinced that it is preferable to talking in an open and frank way with all the media platforms that we have, and I would want to see a clear business case for why a forum of this kind would be a useful tool for Welsh Government in carrying out its overall responsibilities for oversight of media, broadcasting and communication generally in Wales, and that it would benefit the media participants.

That's interesting, because I think it is a programme for government commitment.

I know. But I'm not clear as to the implications of the wording. That's what I tried to say earlier. You were indicating that there was no commitment; I believe indications have been given.

Well, there's a commitment to have something called an independent media forum, but we're not entirely clear what that is.

Yes, exactly.

it's interesting that you don't think that there are going to be any budgetary consequences to setting this up and that the posts are going to be unremunerated, because, certainly, when he was last before us, the Cabinet Secretary—and I appreciate that you haven't had chance to discuss this with him yet—had in mind a fairly ambitious work programme for them. So, it strikes me, if we do proceed with this policy, and we are expecting them to do certain tasks, expecting the whole membership to do that without any money does seem to be optimistic.

Well, I expect that the active research in the field of media that is pursued in the institutions of further and higher education in Wales and in other fora will continue. And I can't see how it is helpful, in such a sensitive field as media, where the whole question of the relationship between content and control is pretty well to the fore—

Well, I think you'll find that Welsh academic media research tends not to be focused on Wales very much. There is very little of it, hence the reason for this commitment in the first place.

Well, then it behoves us to consider its research priorities more carefully, especially in relation to the activity of the relevant funding councils.

Indeed, but it may be that it will have to have budgetary implications, but you seem to think that it'll have none.

I made it clear at the beginning that I've taken a decision that I'm not creating any more quangos or quasi quangos or forums that will add to the public expense of running what is a relatively small budget. My emphasis is on delivery, and I've yet to be convinced—. I'm not clear in my mind what this media forum would do that would add to the greater understanding or effectiveness of media in Wales.

Well, neither am I, but there is a Government commitment to create one. That's why I'm asking you—

I have read the relevant manifesto commitment, and it's not clear to  me what it means.

Okay, well, we look forward to getting your thoughts as they develop on that, then. 

One other commitment that's been made as part of the recent budget agreement with Plaid Cymru is for a fund for hyperlocal news—£100,000 a year next year and the year after—which, again, I think, is something that's still in development. The Cabinet Secretary, when he gave evidence to us most recently, said that, as far as he was aware, this would simply be money provided through Business Wales. I'm not sure if thinking has developed since then. I wonder if your officials might know—are there any existing businesses funded through Business Wales that would be classified as business in hyperlocal news?

'No' I think is the answer.

Again, that is something that maybe we could give you a note on. This is not part of my directorate—the broadcasting and media side—so I'd be happy to provide a note, Chair, if that would be acceptable.

Okay. It would be useful to have a note and an understanding of how that funding is allocated in terms of capital and revenue and what the money is being used for. 

And the amount of money as well.

Yes, indeed. I wonder if the Minister has any early thoughts on how this hyperlocal news fund might be best used. 

As I've said, I haven't had a discussion with the Cabinet Secretary, but I think I've also tried to make it clear that when I saw the responsibility for broadcasting policy—that means, I assume, media policy generally—in my responsibilities, it was clear in my own mind that that did not mean that we were a direct provider. But, clearly, media businesses as businesses are able to receive support through our business programmes. You will know my views on this. I've been opposed to the devolution of media control in Wales because I believe it is important that, given that platforms, generally, are so expensive and so far-reaching, there should always be a joint responsibility of the UK regulators and the UK Government and Welsh Government, and that the policy role of Welsh Government here is to ensure that the UK Government is aware of the needs of Wales in any of its decisions in this whole area, and that it is not for Welsh Government to be providing media outlets or supporting media outlets. But I will have to discuss this in detail with the Cabinet Secretary to see what he had in mind. I don't think this was a manifesto commitment, was it? 

It was a commitment of the Plaid Cymru budget negotiations. 

Well, I wasn't party to those discussions, was I? 

No, indeed, but the commitment stands nonetheless, and an amount of money has been allocated and it's not clear to us what that money is going to be spent on, other than, generically, Business Wales support. The Cabinet Secretary did commit to work with the committee to explore how that might be spent and we've put a call for evidence for some ideas. So, we'd appreciate your commitment to keep an open mind and engage with us on how that can be best utilised. 

I always keep an open mind—especially when questions are coming to from you, Lee, I think is the answer to that. [Laughter.]

Thank you very much. 

Again, I'm afraid this is a team that's not under me within the civil service, but what I believe is that there's obviously specific questions that you've put to the officials. Of course, they're going to respond to you. I will need to check where they are with those responses. What the Cabinet Secretary has said on the record here, I understand, and the Minister's reiterated this, is that we're going to wait until the committee has considered the findings of the media and publishing review before decisions are taken on what happens within that sector. So, if we or officials are holding that up because you've asked for further evidence, we will go back and see where we are with all that. 

Diolch. In terms of capacity building to get to this point, one of the commitments you have is a target by 2021, through early years education, of having an additional 40 nursery groups—the cylchoedd meithrin. In the evidence we've received as part of our inquiry, we were told that there would need to be 650 groups established in order to be able to meet the target. So, there's quite a disjuncture, isn't there, between 650 needed and 40 by 2021? I just wonder if you could tell us about your thoughts on that gap.

I think, you know, you can't click your fingers and make these things happen overnight. We're starting from where we're starting. I think 40 groups is already quite a stretch, but the key problem we have is making sure we have people in place who can teach in those nursery groups. That's why part of the money that we've put forward here—. We've got about £600,000, in order to train those early years teachers, and that's absolutely critical. But, until you've got those people in place, you can't just open nursery schools. It takes a while to train people up, so it makes sense that, in those early years, we've got 40. By the end of the decade, we're hoping to get 150 in place. But, you're right, we need to be building this up, but it will take a cultural shift, I think, actually, in the country, for us to meet these targets.

I appreciate that and I appreciate that it obviously takes time. Given it does take time and given the estimate has been 650, why are we only aiming to have 150 by the end of the decade?

Bethan.

Maybe I can clarify. Since the Mudiad Meithrin gave you that evidence, which was over a year ago now, we've been working closely with them, and the trend in terms of cylchoedd meithrin has changed a bit. So, I've been asking them in terms of numbers of children, and, actually, early indications—although we need to clean the data and check the data—are that the numbers of children are increasing. However, it depends how you count a cylch meithrin. For example, they told me that if they have a cylch in the morning, something at lunch time and something in the afternoon, that counts as three registrations with the CSSIW and that counts as three cylchoedd. So, working with the childcare offer, if they changed those three registrations and had something from 08:00 til 17:00, then those three would become one. So, when we discussed with them 40, that's because we have to take into consideration now that the small cylchoedd are amalgamating, so it doesn't have any bearing on the number of children, but also, in terms of registration, that different things are happening. So, we need to have a view on lots of different bits of the data. In addition, the important thing is there are 400 locations across Wales and 450 cylchoedd at the moment registered.

So, you feel that if, in effect, one cylch is in fact three separate ones, you feel that 150 by the end of the decade does, in effect, achieve the 650 you've projected.

Yes, in the way things are going and the way that the ground is moving, because, obviously, the childcare offer is new, so they have to work strategically in order to achieve some of those aims. But, obviously, we're in close contact with Mudiad Meithrin constantly, and, at the end of the day, it's the number of children that access that's important, and we're still working with them to clean that data and to improve that data.

Okay, thank you. That's useful.

In a similar theme, then, in terms of the sabbaticals for upskilling existing teachers to be confident and able to teach through the medium of Welsh, there has been an evaluation of that programme. Again, we took evidence that showed that, actually, the numbers going through it were modest and that the numbers who went through it didn't always translate into teachers who were then confident to actually use Welsh in the classroom. So, again, I note you have some money set aside for expanding that scheme. I wonder if you could tell me what your reflections have been in the light of that evidence, and whether or not that's going to be at all sufficient.

Well, I think the sabbatical scheme is something that is interesting. I think if you've got the longer period, it's much more difficult to take people out of schools, and then the key problem we have is when they go back, then they're cut off from their ability, again, to progress. So, that is something that certainly needs to be, I think, addressed. Bethan, is there something you'd like to add to that?

I know that the team that's leading on this, working with the consortia, has taken a lot of what was in the evaluation report on board, and I know that the aftercare was one element that they were considering. So, I know now that they're thinking that, once somebody from an English-medium school has been on the course, they will have some time in a Welsh-medium setting to further expand and further strengthen their skills. So, there are changes being made and adaptations being made to the sabbatical scheme in light of the report, but there are many, many people that go on it who think it's very robust, it's a good course, and it's essential in terms of growing the number of Welsh-speaking teachers in future.

This does seem to be one of the main policy levers we're going to be relying upon for increasing capacity and I'm not sure, from listening carefully to that answer, whether or not we can have any real confidence that this is going to be able to meet the challenge that we face.

It's a very, very important programme, but it's part of an expanded jigsaw. It's an important part of that programme for expanding the number of teachers.

I don't doubt it's importance; I'm still not convinced of its efficacy in being able to meet the scale of the challenge we face. I'm not sure you are either, from listening to that answer.

I think it's not just about that sabbatical thing, though. If you look at the money, there's been an additional £5 million from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to train teachers as well, and that will link in to providing more Welsh teachers as well. So, it's not just this budget line that contributes to training Welsh-speaking teachers in the future; there's an additional amount that is very significant within that other budget line. So, we're not relying on that sabbatical funding as the sole way of promoting and to increase the number of teachers.

Right, okay, because I—

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make.

Okay, well, as you know, I'm fairly new in the post, but I'll have a look at that.

Okay, thank you. Just in terms of help for small business, I notice you're setting aside £400,000 to help small and medium-sized enterprises. Can you tell us a bit more about that?

Yes. There's a lot of good will, I think, towards the Welsh language now, but a lot of people have no idea where to start in terms of accessing information or getting some advice. So, what we're trying to do and one of the things we're trying to do is to create a new helpline, for example, where people can go for information and help with little things like translating easy words and a few words. I think there's not an understanding in the business community at the moment in terms of where you can go to get that help, and so we need to make that a lot more transparent and a lot more available. This is just one of a number of areas where we are hoping to develop some help for SMEs.

Yes, I think there's lots of support for that idea. Just to be clear, is that what the £400,000 is for— it's for the helpline?

That's partly towards the helpline. Is there anything else, Bethan?

The £400,000 is to support community business people across Wales, to cover the whole of Wales, and these business leads locally will be working closely with the mentrau iaith. So, it's a contract with Mentrau Iaith Cymru, and they will be focusing on certain and particular sectors that are important to those communities, depending where they are in Wales. There's a conference, actually, next Wednesday in Aberystwyth to kick it off with the 10 in conjunction with the mentrau iaith, and some of the things they're talking about is—I know that one business lead wants to look at the health businesses of pharmacists and dentists to improve their capacity in terms of Welsh. So, it's a joint venture with the mentrau iaith to make sure that we make the most of those individuals that are out there in the field working.

So, it's essentially money for mentrau iaith to encourage small businesses to use more Welsh?

Yes, and to assist them.

There are also 10 new officials who have specifically been appointed for these roles in order to promote and enhance—

Within the Welsh Government?

Are they within the Welsh Government? They're out in the communities, aren't they?

They're out in the community.

But they work for mentrau iaith?

They work in conjunction with mentrau iaith, but there's 10 of them. There's 22 mentrau iaith, so they don't belong to a menter iaith. We've got one person who's the lead person for the 10, but obviously they have to work in partnership with the mentrau iaith because mentrau iaith have the local knowledge.

So, who do they work for, the 10?

The 10—we've appointed somebody—

They work for the Welsh Government.

Yes.

Okay. And, in terms of this, there's no magic bullet for any of this—I appreciate that—as we're trying to find solutions in a very difficult area. But, just in terms of the proven efficacy of thev evaluation of this approach, is this based on any evidence that it actually works? Because getting people, 10 people, making connections with business, we've been trying this for a while, and, you know, are we just throwing more money on projects that really haven't shown much progress or is this based on an effective proven approach?

Can I just start by saying that I've written to each one of my departments this week just to make it absolutely clear that, for anything that comes in front of me, I will want to see an evidence base for it and that I will want to see the risk factors associated with it? So, I've sent a whole list of issues that I would require officials to look at before anything crosses my desk.

Excellent. Just in terms of this commitment that you've inherited—I appreciate that—is there an evidence base for it?

The evidence base for this work came from the mentrau iaith themselves, because they developed the siarter busnes locally. One was piloted in Ceredigion. What they found was that small businesses, especially those that moved into the area, just wanted that leg up and that helpful advice initially as to how to operate—if you move to a Welsh-speaking area, how to operate, how to offer the services, et cetera. So, that's why I said that there's not one policy—no one size fits all here—because it does depend where that business operates. That's the complexity of a language policy: there isn't one size that fits all. Every community is different.

Indeed. Will you be evaluating this approach?

We evaluate all of the programmes and projects we deliver. So, yes, we will be keeping a close eye and evaluating this.

How would you evaluate that project, for example?

We will look at the sectors they target, and we will look at the outputs and outcomes in terms of the work they do. So, do the language awareness sessions bear any fruit and do they change the attitudes in terms of the companies? What we do know in the business field, because we've looked at examples like Dŵr Cymru and we've looked at businesses in the Basque Country, is that it's one of those very difficult areas—that you prove a causal link. But, the language can sometimes bring well-being and a sense of being a team into a business. Very often, although you can't prove the causal links in terms of productivity and stuff, there's often less sickness and less of those things, which makes that business more productive.

Okay.

So we will, yes, be looking at evaluating.

Just finally, I notice there has been a budget reduction of £300,000 through reducing funding for several projects and through a combination of projects coming to an end and reprioritisation of funds. Can you just tell us a little bit about that £300,000 reduction, where it's happened and why it's happened?

Some of those, as you say, are about projects coming to an end. What this means is that it has actually forced people to work together better. So, I think that's always a good outcome. There have been no cuts, as I understand it, to the front-line services. So, those are the key things, as far as I can tell, that are important in terms of that £300,000 reduction.

The key thing to remember is that everybody is having to take a little taste of austerity. If you think about the big picture, actually, the Welsh language has not had to take the kind of cuts that other areas have taken. Do you want to do some of the detail, Bethan?

From what you've said, that sounds like eliminating waste—if people weren't working together and if there was duplication, and if you're able to make changes without affecting the front line, there was some room for savings there. How are you making sure that other potential for savings within this area is explored?

I think that's what interesting: that, actually, you don't want to see a squeeze, necessarily, all of the time, but sometimes putting a squeeze on makes people work more efficiently. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing if it makes people be creative and innovative.

I understand that, but my question is: how can you be satisfied that there aren't other areas that you could have greater efficiencies from in this budget, which is growing?

I think constantly what I'll be looking for is focusing on outputs, and being clear about what outputs we'd be looking for. How do you drive inefficiencies out of a system? If we knew the answer to that, we wouldn't have productivity rates in this country that are considerably less than other places. So, this is not a magic bullet that the Welsh department is going to be able to sort out overnight, but I do think that putting pressure on them to put more money into the front line constantly is probably not a bad idea.

It does seem like an area that's particularly vulnerable to the potential for wastage because it is nebulous, because it is unproven and because it is ambitious. Also, at the same time, you've got extra money being invested in it because of the target we have. It does seem to me that there isn't a particular tradition of evaluation and baselining going on within a lot of these activities. It does seem to me that we need to keep a particularly watchful eye on this sector to try and make sure that things are spent as efficiently as possible. 

I'd agree. I think we do have to make sure that we have very robust evaluation systems in place, and perhaps go through all of these budget lines to be absolutely clear about what outcomes we are expecting.

That's the plan, is it?

Well, that's certainly what I've asked the officials already to do.