National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon. Prynhawn da. Croeso. Welcome to this virtual meeting of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. We have no apologies for this meeting. All our Members are here, as always. We're broadcasting this virtual meeting live on Senedd.tv, and we'll be publishing the Record of Proceedings as usual. So, apart from procedural adaptations for having an online meeting, all Standing Order requirements remain in place. I'd just remind Members to keep your mobile devices switched to silent, we're operating through the mediums of Welsh and English today, with interpretation, and our sound operators will control the microphones for you.

With no apologies, we'll go on to item No. 2, which is the items previously considered for sifting and now subject to scrutiny under Standing Orders 21.2 and 21.3. Here we have item 2.1, SL(6)267, the Marketing of Seeds and Plant Propagating Material (Wales) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2022, and there's a report for committee members. These amendments are required following the UK's exit from the EU to correct operational deficiencies that were not accounted for in earlier amending instruments. Our lawyers have identified two technical and two merits points for reporting, and we have yet to receive a Welsh Government response. Are there any particular points from our legal advisers, Kate?

The two technical points relate to defective drafting in the Welsh language text, and so those are the ones that we've asked for a Welsh Government response on. And then, on the merits points, the first simply notes that the committee had considered a draft of these regulations previously during sifting and that no formal consultation has been carried out.

Thank you, Kate. I'm guessing that we're happy to agree those reporting points as a committee. We are.

So, we'll go on to item No. 3, instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. Here we have item 3.1, which is SL(6)269, the Non-Domestic Rating (Property in Common Occupation) (Wales) Regulations 2022, and we have a written statement accompanying this. This instrument specifies circumstances in which two or more hereditaments, whether occupied or unoccupied, must be treated as one hereditament for the purposes of determining an owner's or occupier's non-domestic rating liabilities. It also sets out the circumstances in which two or more hereditaments are to be considered as contiguous with each other. We've got no reporting points with this. Members, are we happy to agree that? We are.

So, we go on to item No. 4, which is instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. Under 4.1 of this section, we have SL(6)268, the Land Transaction Tax (Tax Bands and Tax Rates) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2022, and we have a draft report. These regulations amend the Land Transaction Tax (Tax Bands and Tax Rates) (Wales) Regulations 2018 to insert revised tax bands and percentage tax rates for residential property transactions. Our lawyers have identified one merits point for reporting. We do not need a Welsh Government response for this. Kate, the merits point.

The merits point simply notes that the regulations may have an impact on the Welsh consolidated fund because any amounts collected in land transaction tax will be paid into that fund.

Thank you for that, Kate; fairly straightforward. I think we're happy to agree that.

We move on to item No. 5, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 that we've previously considered. The first of these is item 5.1, SL(6)260, the Marine, Fisheries and Aquaculture (Financial Assistance) Scheme (Wales) Regulations 2022. We have a report and a Welsh Government response. This is the instrument we looked at, colleagues, on 17 October, and we laid our report later that day. Our report includes several merits and technical reporting points. We've had the Welsh Government response, which I draw your attention to—we subsequently received it. Any comments on this, Kate?

The Welsh Government response confirmed that they were withdrawing the draft, and so we'll provide you with comments on a relaid draft in due course. 

Thank you for that. We look forward to receiving it. So, on that basis, we move on to item 5.2, which is SL(6)238, the Agricultural Wages (No. 2) (Wales) Order 2022. We have letters of 20 October and 6 October accompanying this and, of course, a report. Now, we looked at this instrument in our meeting of 26 September. We wrote to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, seeking further information on a number of reporting points raised in our report. We've had that Welsh Government response to the report subsequently, and, Kate, what have we learnt?

This letter is a very helpful response to the committee's concerns; it engages with the issues. The committee's two concerns were the definition of 'apprenticeship framework' and the imposition of a statutory duty on agricultural workers that was not intended to be enforced. The letter confirms that the Welsh Government is going to discuss both of these issues with the agricultural advisory panel, with the aim of addressing those concerns in the next agricultural wages Order. So, the committee may wish to keep this under review and, when the next Order comes along, which is expected in 2023, you can consider the matter again.

That's lovely. Thanks, Kate. So, there's some progress there and some helpful responses. I think we'll probably want to, as a committee, keep this under review, going forward—keep a good eye on this. Thank you, Kate. Are we happy to agree with those comments there? We are.

In which case, we go on to item No. 6, written statements under Standing Order 30C. We have, under item 6.1 first of all, written statement 30C(6)012, the Biocidal Products (Health and Safety) (Amendment) Regulations 2022. We have a written statement of 19 October and a commentary as well. This written statement tells the Senedd that the Welsh Government has given consent to the UK Government to make the Biocidal Products (Health and Safety) (Amendment) Regulations 2022. These regulations amend retained EU law by extending the deadline for processing applications to the Great Britain Biocidal Product Regulations regime by a period of five years. So, it means that biocidal products that received pre-exit authorisation can remain on the market during this extension. Now then, do we have any comments from Kate or from others on this? Does this link to other written statements we have in front of us today as well?

We had no comments. Senedd legal advisers had no comments on this one.

Okay. Are we content to note that written statement? We are. Then we'll go on to item 6.2, written statement 30C(6)013, the Control of Mercury (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2022. Again, we have a written statement of 19 October and a commentary. These regulations 

'replace a reference to "a Member State" with a reference to "Great Britain"'

within a retained European Commission implementing decision. And this, of course, is in respect of the Welsh Government giving consent for the UK Government to make the Control of Mercury (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2022. Any comments on this, or are we happy to note, colleagues? We're happy to note that. Okay.

Which takes us on, then, to item 7, notifications and correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement. Here we have under item 7.1 correspondence from the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, giving consent to the Secretary of State to make the Animals and Animal Health, Feed and Food, Plants and Plant Health (Amendment) Regulations 2022, and the Minister states that she's giving consent to ensure

'consistency and coherence of the statute book',

and states that these amendments have been 'considered fully'.

Secondly, we have item 7.2, correspondence from the Minister for Finance and Local Government in respect of the Interministerial Standing Committee, which would have been taking place on 20 October. So, we have the letter there relating to that. 

We also have correspondence from the Minister for Rural Affairs, North Wales, and Trefnydd in respect of her giving consent to the Secretary of State to make the Trade in Animals and Related Products (Amendment) (Legislative Functions) Regulations 2022, and the Minister states here that

'The Welsh Ministers will shortly be making equivalent regulations, which will create a number of regulation-making powers for the Welsh Ministers and amend the Trade in Animals and Related Products (Wales) Regulations 2011.'

Now, the Minister in that correspondence draws our attention to regulation 4(3) and 8(2) of the draft regs, 

'which provide that if the Welsh Ministers give consent, the Secretary of State may exercise regulation making powers, as appropriate authority in relation to Wales.'

The Minister states, just for the attention of Members, that she's giving consent for

'reasons of efficiency and expediency in future policy change and adherence to international obligations, and cross-government coordination and consistency',

and again states that the amendments have been considered fully. All these items, colleagues, we can return to them in private session if need be. Are we happy to note? We are. Brilliant.

So, we go on to papers to note, and the first of these under item 8 is 8.1, where we have correspondence from the House of Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee enclosing its latest report for us, entitled 'Losing Impact: why the Government's impact assessment system is failing Parliament and the public'. 

Secondly—. That is the only paper to note, actually, that we have today. So, are we happy to note that? Alun.

I was actually very interested in this. The criticisms that it makes of the UK Government and the methodology of legislation reflect some of the things that we've been saying in many of our reports. I think it might be useful if we were able to find a way of involving parliamentarians from the Senedd as well as London and, potentially, Edinburgh, to actually have a conversation about what our expectations are for the way in which Governments across the UK actually behave and legislate. I think these are issues that should form part of a sense of almost a British Bill of Rights, if you like, for Parliaments, so that each one of our legislatures and Governments operates to the same sort of standard. I accept it would be difficult to do it in a great deal of detail, but I think it's something that, the next time we have one of our joint meetings, might be useful to discuss. 

It's a really good suggestion. Let's return to this in private, but it's a helpful cue-up now for our good but small clerking team to think about how we can best take that idea forward. But, certainly, as to the way in which we can learn from each other on this inter-parliamentary basis, this is a good example, and I agree it does chime with some of the same things we've been hearing about our own impact assessment process here. Okay, we'll return to that, Alun, in private session.

In which case, there is an important piece of business we need to do before we return after the recess. I'm not able to join with the committee on, I think it is, 7 November, because I'll be in London at an engagement related to this committee itself there. So, I need to ask Members if we can have a nomination, please, for a temporary Chair to step in for me. Do we have any nominees, please? Rhys. 

I'd like to nominate Alun Davies, please. 

Thank you, Rhys, for that. James, happy to go with that? Thank you very much indeed. Thank you, Alun. If you could take over and chair on that day, I'd be grateful indeed. Thank you very much; we're in good hands there. So, I think there's something formal to do—I think I have to read it for the record: I therefore declare that Alun Davies has been appointed temporary Chair for that meeting, and I invite him to chair the meeting on 7 November. Thank you very much indeed. 

In which case, we've got a fair bit of business to do in private now, so we move to item 10. We have a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Colleagues, are we happy to do so? We are, and we move into private, please, our clerking team, and we'll wait for them to tell us.