National Assembly for Wales

I welcome everyone to today's meeting of the Petitions Committee. This meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and all participants will be joining by video-conference. The meeting is bilingual and translation is available. A Record of Proceedings will also be published. Aside from the procedural adaptations related to conducting business remotely, all other Standing Order requirements remain in place. Item 1 on today's agenda is apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. No apologies have been received. I remind committee members that they should note any declarations of interest at this point or at relevant points. I can see Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. It's just a quick declaration. As I've mentioned a couple of times, I'm a member of BASC, the British Association for Shooting and Conservation. I know that there are about three petitions coming up where that might have some relevance.

Diolch yn fawr, Joel, for that. That's noted for the record. I remind Members, throughout today's proceedings, if there are any further declarations of interest, then please make them at the relevant point.

Item 2 on today's agenda was supposed to be an evidence session for P-06-1207, 'Start referring to Welsh cities and towns by their Welsh names'. At our meeting on 24 January, the committee accepted an offer from the Welsh Language Commissioner, Aled Roberts, to discuss his response to said petition. Unfortunately, Aled is unwell and is unable to be with us this afternoon. So, the committee does send our best wishes to Aled and wishes him a speedy recovery. We hope to have that evidence session with the Welsh Language Commissioner at our next meeting on 7 March.

Moving on, then, to item 3, new petitions. Item 3.1 is P-06-1231, 'Introduce greener "bee-friendly" bus stops across Wales':

'We are asking the Welsh Government to introduce greener 'bee-friendly' bus stops across Wales and to commit to making 10% of bus stops bee-friendly over the next five years.'

There is additional information in the packs for Members and also available to members of the public online. It was submitted by the rewilding group of the climate change grand challenge at Cardiff University school of politics, with 197 signatures. I look to Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. I'll bring in Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank the petitioner for bringing forward this petition as an avid beekeeper myself. I see that the petitioner has been notified about the green infrastructure that the Welsh Government is considering and that all local authorities are taking on green infrastructure assessments, so, hopefully, this will drive the next steps locally. I know that the hedges are not being cut back and that the hedgerows are being left locally, and they're not being trimmed down, so that there's plenty of space there for nature—insects and bees. So, I think I'd like to thank the petitioner and close this petition.

Thank you, Buffy. There's no surprise that you are an avid beekeeper, there is often a buzz around the place when you're in the Bay. So, that's noted. I see that Members are in agreement, maybe not with my pun, but certainly with the action from the Member. Diolch yn fawr.

Item 3.2, P-06-1234, 'The new Heads of the Valley road should not be restricted to 50 mph':

'The Welsh Government has spent £336m to improve the Heads of the Valley road which was previously restricted to 50mph. If the new road is also restricted to 50mph the £336m will have been completely wasted.'

There is additional information in the packs for Members and, again, for members of the public online. It was submitted by Richard Millington, with 271 signatures. I look to Members to discuss this petition, and I bring Luke Fletcher in.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. It seems to me that this road has been quite heavily scrutinised over the past couple of years. I think that scrutiny also included the public inquiry at one point. I know that the road itself was designed and built, really, to operate as a 50 mph maximum speed road. Now that it's open, the dual carriageway, as far as I'm aware, should be safer than the old three-lane single carriageway that was there before, or which was used previously. Given that we've had so much scrutiny on this now and it is done, I think we're in a position here to thank the petitioner for putting the petition forward, but close it, because I can't see that there's anything that we can do now as a Petitions Committee going forward.

Diolch yn fawr, Luke. I can see that Members are in agreement with your suggestion, so we'll take that action forward and thank the petitioner. Diolch.

Item 3.3 on the agenda is P-06-1239, 'Cancel GCSE Exams in Wales':

'There is uncertainty around the cancellation of exams. This adds extra stress to learners who haven’t had a full year of education since 2019! By having Centre Assessed Grades, students will feel more secure. The mental health and well being of students should be the first priority in this decision making process. Sign this petition now and help Year 10 and 11 reach their full potentials and get the grades they deserve.'

It was submitted by Millie Rae with 396 signatures. I look to Members to discuss this petition and any actions that the committee may take. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. I must admit, I've been reading this quite a bit now and I don't know what more we can do as a committee. The Welsh Government has said quite clearly that it intends for exams to go ahead in the summer, and I don't think there's going to be much leeway with trying to encourage them either way to change their opinion. So, I just think maybe it might be best just to acknowledge the difficult situation it is and the stresses and the strains that children doing examinations have been put under during this period, but I think there's not much we can do as a committee, so it might be wise if we just thank the petitioner and then maybe just close the petition.

Thank you, Joel. I can see Members are in agreement with that. I think it's worth noting as well that the Government have a clear intention, and the Minister has stated that, but the contingencies are in place if the public health situation does not make it possible for those exams to take place. But we do thank Millie Rae for engaging with the process. Diolch.

Item 3.4, P-06-1241, 'Welsh government to meet with a wider audience of unpaid carers':

'Please sign the petition and ask the Welsh Government to meet with a wider audience of unpaid carers and listen to our stories. We want the Welsh Government to meet regularly with carers outside of the carer organisations and committees. The aim of these meetings would be to give carers a voice, a chance to share their concerns and for the Welsh Government to hear the real stories of carers on the ground.

'We deserve the right to have our voices heard. Unpaid carers have been ignored for too long and even more so during the pandemic. For example, the Welsh Government stated that they couldn't find any examples of services being stopped during the pandemic, but actual carers on the ground know that services were stopped and still haven't be restarted.

'We’re asking that relevant Minister to meet with us so we can help shape future policies to ensure a better future for unpaid carers living in Wales.'

That was submitted by Mike O'Brien with 133 signatures. I look to Members here to discuss this important petition further and any action they may wish to take. Luke Fletcher. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I'd just like to thank the petitioner for putting this petition in. I know it's said an awful lot, and 'thank you' doesn't pay the bills or solve the issues, but I also want to recognise the work that unpaid carers do in their communities. It's not just of benefit to public health but there's a wider benefit here to the economy as well that goes largely undocumented. More often than not, it's the people who are on the coalface, in the trenches, that are best people to talk to when we want to learn about some of the situations that they're dealing with and some of the experiences.

I am finding it difficult to know what we can do here, if I'm going to be totally honest. I will say I notice that the petitioner has mentioned Joel James and my colleague Heledd Fychan and some of the work they've been doing with their round-table sessions. I don’t want to put Joel on the spot at all, but I would be interested to know what happened in those round-tables. But I'm keen as well, thinking back to what I've just said about those on the coalface being the best people to listen to—. I'm aware the health committee has a range of potential evidence-gathering sessions, and I was just wondering if it's a possibility for us as a Petitions Committee to contact the health committee to highlight this particular petition and to see if an inquiry on unpaid carers is part of that timetable of sessions.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr, Luke. Joel.

Thank you, Chair. As Luke said, I met with the petitioner to do a round-table event last year, which I was hoping would be on a fairly regular basis, but, due to time constraints, that's not necessarily happened, although it's something I'm keen to pursue. So, for transparency purposes, yes, I know the petitioner, just for the record, then.

One of the things that did strike me when we had the round-table discussion was how, basically, as Luke was saying, those on the coalface, their experiences weren't necessarily being—. Not necessarily articulated, but they weren't necessarily getting back to those organisations that were representing them, if that makes sense. So, I definitely think there is scope to try and do this, so we go straight to the unpaid carers rather than through the organisations that represent them. Obviously, they all have valid points themselves to bring. One of the things that did come through when we had this round-table—and I have no doubt that probably the same would be expressed by Heledd Fychan as well—was how there were just points and experiences that were happening on an individual basis that just weren't being fed back to the unpaid carer associations. So, it's something I'm still quite keen to take on myself as well, to continue that round-table discussion. I'll probably make contact with Mike now in a week or two to try and get that back on track. So, that's something that I can do my end as a regional Senedd Member.

But I think what Luke was saying about whether or not it's something within the remit of the health committee—. Because they'll be able to then, to quote Lee Waters, to do a deep-dive exercise just to see what could be done, really. They'll have the resources then just to go into greater detail, if that makes sense.  

Thank you, Joel. I think Mike and those who have signed this petition, and those unpaid carers in Wales, do welcome the work that you and Heledd Fychan have done in organising those round-tables. I'm sure they will look forward to that restarting again, and many Members across the Senedd will try to attend, I'm sure.

As a Member of the health committee, I can say that we do often have questions and scrutinise Ministers and gather evidence around unpaid carers and the importance of unpaid carers. I myself have asked a question to the Minister in this Senedd. Perhaps we could write to the Chair of the committee, Russell George, highlighting this petition, and perhaps making contact with the petitioner to see if there is any route for the petitioner to engage in future inquiries or evidence-gathering sessions. I can't speak on behalf of that committee and I do not have the timetable in front of me, so I don't know what is there, but I'm sure we can certainly highlight it with the Chair and officials so that they know there is a route here to make contact with Mike and others. I can see Members are in agreement with all of those suggestions, so thank you.

Moving on then to 3.5, P-06-1242, 'Improve Endometriosis Healthcare in Wales':

'Endometriosis devastates the lives of women and their families living in Wales with 1 in 10 suffering with the condition. The cause of endometriosis is unknown, there is no cure, the average diagnosis time is currently 8.5 years and there’s a 6 year waiting list for treatment on the NHS. The demonstrable lack of understanding of the condition is detrimentally impacting society at all levels. Funding therefore needs to be prioritised to ensure equality of healthcare in Wales.'

There is additional information in Members' packs and online for members of the public to see. This was submitted by Beth Hales with 5,895 signatures, and I should say I met Beth with Members of the Senedd on the steps of the Senedd last week, and Beth is—again, as I have the pleasure of chairing this committee and meeting many inspirational people—Beth is, once again, an inspirational person in Wales, who's really taken this agenda and is forcing this agenda. On that note, I will invite Members to speak to this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank the petitioner, and personally thank the petitioner, for continuing to campaign on this subject. Endometriosis is a debilitating and, in some cases, life-changing issue that can be totally detrimental to a woman and to the immediate family's lives. There's a lot of concern with the deterioration of care for those who have been suffering endometriosis, especially now in light of COVID, where waiting lists have gone even further and we're now having to wait even longer to see a gynaecologist to have a diagnosis of endometriosis. So, I'd like to write to the Minister with the specific questions from the petitioner, and I'd also like to write to all health boards just to find out exactly what action is being taken to (1), reduce these waiting lists, because eight years for a diagnosis is just absolutely dreadful, and also what each health board is offering women who are suffering with endometriosis, because, like I say, it is a debilitating and, in some cases, life-changing illness to suffer. Coming from someone who has suffered with endometriosis, I understand just how painful and debilitating it is.

So, I think, as you said, Chair, earlier on, there was a very emotive debate in the fifth Senedd that left most people in tears. That just goes to show the strength of feeling behind this petition, so if we could do that with these points that the petitioner's raised—get answers to the questions—that would be great. Thank you. 

Diolch for that, Buffy. I can see agreement from all Members, and I think I speak for all other Members in saying that we are clearly not experts in this field, but hearing the likes of yourself, the likes of the petitioner, and, as you rightly point out, the debate in the fifth Senedd—I was privileged to be there, and it was the Senedd at its very best. It did leave many of us in tears, but that just shows the importance of how we've got to drive and showcase the urgency of this issue.

To add to your suggestion, which I think we all are in agreement with, when I met with the petitioner, Beth mentioned that she has also written to the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt, about this issue, because she believes that, as much as a healthcare issue, it's a social justice issue. There are extremely valid points made in her letter, and I think we should follow up with our own letter highlighting that, and I will share the petitioner's letter with the clerking team so they can do so.

I also think we have a job as a committee that we agreed to at the start of this Senedd, when we said our vision would be to highlight petitions and showcase petitions, if you like. This is an area of significant importance to many people in Wales, and I think we should do all we can to try and highlight the story of the petitioner, and so many women across Wales, and perhaps we can seek to have a conversation with our comms team, who are doing some great work—already today, I've noticed, this has been on social media—but perhaps there's a piece of further work we can do with the petitioner on this, and we will look to do that outside of this meeting. I can see Members are in agreement.

So, I do thank Beth for that, and we look forward to the responses from Ministers and health boards, and hopefully some results sooner rather than later. 

Item 3.6, P-06-1244, 'In remembrance of Aberfan, rename the George Thomas Hospital'.

'History now shows the full extent of the culpability of George Thomas in the light of his misuse of funds donated to survivors and bereaved relatives following the Aberfan disaster. That this man should be honoured with the naming of a hospital is a calumny that needs to be corrected.'

This was submitted by Vivienne Jenkins, with 314 signatures, and I look to Members to discuss this petition further. Joel James. Diolch.

Thank you, Chair. I've been reading about this a bit, reading the background and everything, and it is definitely one of those awkward ones, because—. My view on this is this: the petitioner says that history now shows the full extent, but that was known at the time. It was common knowledge at the time that the Government—. I'll say the Labour Government; I'm not making a political point now, I'm just saying that it was a Labour Government at the time and this is what was done, and it's been common knowledge ever since. The reason why George Thomas has been honoured in these ways is not because of that in Aberfan, it's because of his other work, and his charities, the hospital, they have all been named in his honour. I know, for example, in my own patch in RCT, we had the Lord Tonypandy pub. That was changed, but the street is still called Mr Speakers Way.

My view is this: I'm not one to be—. It's the same with banning things. I'm uncomfortable with this, and I'm also conscious that it's not necessarily within the remit of the Welsh Government to be able to do anything about it. So, my view would be, and if it is the view of the rest of the committee, that we just say that to the petitioner, and suggest that the petitioner writes to the health board to do this and that we close this petition. I don't necessarily see what more we can do. I think we should just say, 'Well, the Welsh Government is unable to do anything on this matter, if you wish to pursue this more—', you know, take it to the petitioner. Because the thing is—and this is the thing—how we view the past changes, and we've seen that with the discussions we've had about statues and everything, but these statues or these names, they weren't erected for the bad that they did, they were erected for the good that they did. And I'm just saying, you know—. I'm just concerned about just doing this. So, that's my view. I think we just should let the petitioner write to the health board and make the case themselves.

Okay. Thank you for that suggestion, Joel. Luke, I see you wanted to come in. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I think, just for transparency reasons—. I actually know Viv. She lives in Bridgend. I don't think it would surprise people to know that I don't necessarily agree with Joel on what he said there. I don't propose we go into a debate now on the merits of renaming things and changing statues and so on; I've made my view on that quite clear over the past couple of months and years, really. I would like to suggest, however, that we, as a committee, write to the health boards on this, rather than suggesting that the petitioner does it herself, purely because this petition was submitted to us, and we have, I think, a clear route here that's been given to us by the Government. I agree with Joel; it's not necessarily in the remit of Welsh Government, but that doesn't mean our involvement should end. I think we should, instead, go to the health board and seek a response from them as a committee. 

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Luke, for that. As a compromise, I think the committee can write to the health board, and that is where our involvement draws a line. We write to the health board on behalf of the petitioner, and we share the responses through the petitioner. And, if there's any more work to be done on this, then clearly we suggest the petitioner looks directly to the health board. But we will write, in the first instance, and close on the back of that. Are Members content with that approach? I can see they are. Thank you, all. 

Item 3.7, P-06-1245, 'Diverse and equal representation in the Senedd'.

'The vision of the Diverse5050 Campaign is to see more Black, Asian, and ethnic minority women, LGBTQ+ women, disabled women, and women with other protected characteristics in the leadership structure in Wales – a Senedd that is gender balanced and reflective of the whole Welsh population. The agreement between Plaid Cymru and Welsh Labour supports integrated gender quotas, but more needs to be done. We are calling for legally binding integrated diversity and gender quotas.'

There is additional information on this petition available to Members in their packs, and also to members of the public online. And it was submitted by WEN Wales—that's Women's Equality Network Wales—with 199 signatures, and I will look to Members to discuss this petition and any action they may wish to take. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. It's always important to have a good variety of voices around the table. I think that's how we get good policy decisions. I'm more than comfortable to admit that I have my blind spots when it comes to policy, and I rely on other Members to guide me from their own experiences. And so I think this is something that we should all fully get behind. I don't think there are negatives to diversity in politics—I think there are only positives—and, like I said, it creates better policy and that, in the long run, is what we are here for. 

I know that the Special Purpose Committee on Senedd Reform are, obviously, looking into this at the moment, so I would like to suggest that we forward this petition to them for consideration in their work programme, and then thank the petitioner and close the petition. 

Thank you, Luke. I would agree with that and I can see all Members are in agreement with that too, so—. Oh, Joel. 

Thank you, Chair. Yes, on what Luke was saying, there are some things with the petition I don't necessarily support, in terms of it's calling for an enlarged Senedd and everything. I think there are too many politicians—sorry, I know I'm one of them—but I think there are too many at every step. And I just think more needs to be done in terms of reform in that sense. I agree I think much more needs to be done in terms of encouraging more diversity and more ethnic Members of the Chamber and everything, but whether or not that's quotas—. That doesn't sit comfortably with me. So, that's only—. I agree with putting it onto the special committee and let someone else make the decision, but I just wanted to say my bit on that. Thank you. 

Yes, understood and noted for the record, Joel, and I think the agreement, just for clarity, from the committee will be to forward the petition on to the special committee on Senedd reform, and not necessarily agree with the actual petition itself; individual Members may have differing views on that. 

Okay, item 4 on today's agenda, updates to previous petitions. Item 4.1, P-05-1010, 'An independent inquiry into the 2020 flooding in Rhondda Cynon Taf so that lessons are learned', submitted by Eleri Griffiths, with 6,017 signatures. And I note we have considered this a number of times now, including a Plenary debate back in December 2020. I invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take, and I'll bring Buffy Williams in. 

Thank you, Chair, and I'd like to thank the petitioner for bringing this petition forward. Even though there is no independent inquiry into the flooding, there is an independent inquiry into the section 19 reports, which are vitally important for learning and understanding why the flooding happened throughout Wales. It's been just over two years now, two years since my own community was absolutely devastated by storm Dennis and the flooding, and we are still now today recovering from those events, two years on. I'm glad that we will have an independent review of the section 19 reports. I'm glad that they will be taking into account the mental health implications of flooding on families and individuals. I think that's really, really important. I'm not sure where else we can go with this petition now. I'm not sure if any of the other Members would like to come in on this, but I think we should now close the petition and thank the petitioner, because I don't know where else we can go with this petition.   

Diolch yn fawr, Buffy. Luke Fletcher. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. There's a lot to be said about the effects of flooding on people's lives here. I know of some stories that have been fed to me from colleagues in Rhondda, like Heledd Fychan, for example, and, actually, the petitioner—who again, for transparency reasons, I know; she's a Plaid Cymru councillor—where, when people hear the rain, they can't sleep. That effect really is devastating to hear. I think actually it's very important that we do learn from what's happened here and how we can stop it from happening in the future. We know that climate change is potentially a factor here. This is going to become something that's more common, not just in the Valleys areas but in other areas as well. So, we really do need to get on top of this. I agree with Buffy in terms of where we go with this petition now. I can't see what more we can do. I think the climate change committee might be looking at this—I might be wrong, though—but I think we should look to thank the petitioner and close the petition and allow the climate change committee to carry on with this work and the inquiry into the section 19 reports and see what happens from there. 

Thank you, Luke. Joel.

Thank you, Chair. I've mentioned when we've debated this previously I'm a councillor in RCT and I believe the petitioner is as well, so there's something there. I agree with what's been said by Buffy and by Luke, really. I think it's definitely important that we learn the lessons that we've been told so it doesn't happen again. And that's the frustrating thing, because I know from my own point I've had to deal with several housing applications in my area all being built on flood plains, and if we're not learning any lessons from what happened in Pontypridd and in the Rhondda, what good is it having these reviews? So, I agree with what Luke and Buffy have said, and I think it's definitely something that we're going to keep pushing as individual constituency Members as well. We can still use whatever sway we have to hold to account those responsible.

Thank you for that, Joel. There seems to be full consent as to where to take this petition forward. I'll note this was the fifth time the committee has considered it, so we have taken this petition seriously. We held a Plenary debate too. In addition, there's the report that the climate change committee in the fifth Senedd produced, and also it's worth noting that the climate change committee in this Senedd has set out its priority in setting an exercise that will review the Welsh Government's 10-year national strategy for flood and coastal erosion risk management in Wales and it will be doing that later this term. So, on that note, we will close this petition and thank the petitioner.

Moving on to 4.2, P-05-1097, 'Ban game bird cages', and this was submitted by the League Against Cruel Sports with 5,287 signatures. I look to Members to discuss this petition and I'll bring Luke Fletcher in. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I can see that the Welsh Government has provided assurances that it would be consulting stakeholders on this issue when they review the progress of the code, and of course they are unable to really press ahead with that at the moment with a specific timescale because of the impact of avian flu, and COVID and Brexit—you know, those two big things that have been plaguing us for the past couple of years. But I'm confident actually that the Minister is sincere in what she's saying when she's providing those assurances. I know that, like me and other Members on this committee, she's passionate about animal welfare. So, I'd be inclined to thank the petitioner here and close the petition, and that we as individual Members keep an eye on this going forward, although I am open, of course, as well to any other suggestions from Members.

Okay. Thank you, Luke. Any other comments from Members? You're in agreement. Joel.

Thank you, Chair. It was just to agree with what Luke said there, really. Again, I mentioned at the start my BASC link, and I'm just making that known again. I agree with everything that Luke has said there, but I'm also conscious when we last discussed this we talked about that Bill coming through to the House of Lords. I definitely think that's something that we can push with the Minister. I note that we did do it last time, but I don't think they necessarily responded directly to that. But, again, I just think it might be a case where that's already been handled and out of our hands. Thank you, Chair. 

Thanks, Joel. I think the committee has highlighted the Bill that is going through the House of Lords as an opportunity now, and perhaps that's for individual Members to raise on the floor of the Senedd with the relevant Minister at the relevant point. But, for now, it seems Members are content with the agreement to close and thank the petitioner. They are. Okay.

Moving on to 4.3, P-05-1112, 'Help Welsh Communities Buy Community Assets: Implement Part 5 Chapter 3 of the Localism Act 2011'. This was submitted by Daniel Evans with 655 signatures, and again I invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. This is a petition I fully support. I think this is something we need to be pushing as Senedd Members as well, and I know we've got a debate coming up shortly about Cowbridge school. Funnily enough, I met with residents last week about Maindy velodrome, you know, so it's definitely something that has wider reach in appeal. But I'm also conscious that when we've spoken to the Minister about this, they haven't yet met with all stakeholder groups to discuss the next steps. We can't necessarily decide on this petition until that has happened, so it might be the case we just keep it open now and just keep chasing the Minister to see when they've had those meetings, and then we debate it again after that.

Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I think I might know Dan. I know about five or seven Dans off the top of my head—Dan Evanses—in my own area. So, I'm just going to say, just in case it's one of them.

This is something I really do support. We had a very interesting cross-party group meeting in the CPG on co-operatives and social partnerships on this topic, and how we help community organisations take over community assets, because, at the end of the day, community assets are there for the benefit of the community and need to be protected. I think we can all reference stories in our own patches where big companies have come in and bought out or outbid local community groups, and that's something I think we need to guard against and help where we can.

I am inclined to keep this petition open, pending the Minister's next update. I know that I and other Members will be keen as well to push for this in the Chamber.

Buffy Williams.

I'd just really quickly, Chair, echo Luke and Joel. As you know, I should maybe declare an interest here because I do have an asset transfer project from RCT council that is still in my name, and I can only stress the benefits of council buildings being transferred back into community ownership, if it's done correctly and if it's done with the right people driving these transfers, because sometimes all you get is people wanting to do good but just not understanding the actual magnitude of the responsibility that comes with these buildings and the transfer itself. So, I think that's something that we should be mindful of, and, as Luke has said, it's something we'll definitely be debating in the Chamber, and all this obviously will be aired then.

Thank you, all. There's agreement on the way forward, to keep this important petition open, and awaiting the Minister's next update.

Moving on, 4.4, P-06-1201, 'Ban the shooting of critically endangered birds...give them the protection they so desperately need'. This was submitted by Robert Curtis with 122 signatures. Again, I'll invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank the petitioner for bringing this petition forward. I've looked at this petition with some interest. I think this is a very important petition. I know that I and Joel have spoken, because there is some legislation going through Parliament, hopefully, that will help with this petition. But, until then, I'd like to write to the Minister and ask if we could monitor the number of birds that are shot in Wales and what measures, if any, the Minister is planning in the short term to address the issues raised in the petition. I'd like to keep this petition open just so we can monitor the outcome and whatever the Minister feeds back.

Okay. Thank you for that, Buffy. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. I'm in support of what Buffy has mentioned there, because I think the key thing here is—and again I highlight the BASC thing, and I think I was one of the ones that asked for them to be included within this—the lack of evidence, really. The evidence that is shown at the moment is that these birds are declining not as a result of being shot; it's habitat destruction. And the irony is that where those habitats are thriving are in areas where shoots take place, with game management and everything. So, I do think a lot needs to be done, because my suspicion is these birds are declining because of habitat destruction and loss, as opposed to being caught in the crossfire of country shoots. I don't shoot, but I've spoken to people who do shoot, and it's very difficult to shoot these kinds of birds because they're so fast. So, I just think this is one of those petitions where emotions are getting in the way of the objectivity of it, if that makes sense. So, I definitely think there is a need for more evidence, and so I would support Buffy's call there.

Thank you, Joel. So, there seems to be a consensus to write to the Minister. I should say that we should note that, as Joel says, there are many differing views here, and emotions are different within this petition, and we do as a committee try to take emotions out, to the side, of it. BASC did get in touch with the committee—they have been involved with the committee. I should say, I was somewhat disappointed in a line in the response to the committee, where they were surprised the committee would consider such a petition. I have to say for the record that it is for the committee to make that decision. And, of course, I was pleased with the rest of their response, putting their thoughts and comments back to the committee for our consideration. So, I do thank them for that, but it's for the committee to make a decision on what they consider. I think the action has been agreed there.

Moving on to 4.5, P-06-1202, 'Ban the killing of day-old chicks in Wales', submitted by David Grimsell with 413 signatures. I invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. I look to bring Luke Fletcher in at this point.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I think this is a very ethical issue here, with a number of different elements. In the first instance, we're talking about killing a sentient animal, aren't we, when we cull day-old chicks? On the other hand, of course, then, I'm also aware that, by and large, those chicks are culled and processed as food for other animals, be they birds of prey or exotic pets. So, there's an element to think about there: where does the alternative food source come from? It is quite a complicated thing to discuss, really—like I said, ethical, and quite emotional as well. I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying that Jamie Oliver, in one of his programmes, did something around this, which was quite disturbing, but I won't go too much into that now. I notice from our packs that we've had some evidence that we requested from the HSA, which is the Humane Slaughtering Association, I think, off the top of my head, and the RSPCA. I'd be keen to share those views with the Minister, but I'd also as well, at the same time, be keen to share the petitioner's view with the Welsh Government and see if there's any positive way in which the Welsh Government can engage with the UK Government on this issue. I don't think we have seen the back of it yet, but I'd be very keen to at least get some letters fired off to the Welsh Government to see what they think on this issue, with, of course, the evidence that we've managed to gather so far.

Diolch yn fawr, Luke. Are Members content with Luke's proposal, to send the letters, to share the views, to the Minister and close the petition on that basis? Happy? Yes. Okay.

Moving on then to petitions that I believe, as Chair, require no further action, and they are as follows: P-06-1246 and P-06-1254. As I mentioned at the start, these petitions are not ones where I feel the committee needs to take further action. On the first one, although we have received further correspondence in the last couple of days from the petitioner, I still feel we need to take no further action, and this is because regulations are already easing. The second petition is something I do not think would make a positive difference to the lives of the people of Wales, and that is something that the committee seeks to do and wants to put its energy into. So, on that basis, I ask Members to agree with my proposal to take no further action on those petitions. I can see all Members are in agreement. Okay, moving on then, that does conclude today's public business.

We will now go into a private session. So, can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for the next item? Members are content? They are. Thank you.

Just to say before the meeting closes that our next meeting will be on 7 March and, again, we hope to have Aled Roberts, the Welsh Language Commissioner, with us at that meeting, and we wish him well. Thank you to all Members, members of the public who have watched our thrilling episode on Senedd.tv today, and the clerking team, of course. Diolch yn fawr. The meeting is closed.