National Assembly for Wales

This meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and all participants will be joining by video-conference. The meeting is bilingual and translation is available. A Record of Proceedings will also be published. Aside from the procedural adaptations relating to conducting business remotely, all other Standing Order requirements remain in place.

Item 1 on today's agenda is apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. No apologies have been received, and I remind committee members that they should note any declarations of interest either now or at the relevant point during today's proceedings. 

Item 2 on the agenda is new petitions. Item 2.1 is P-06-1226, 'Remove barriers to entry to Social Work and encourage parity of esteem between Social Care and Health'. The petitions reads as follows:

'The current Welsh Government policy is placing unnecessary hardships onto would-be social workers. Currently, social worker masters students are prohibited from obtaining a student loan and social care bursary concurrently.

'We call on the Welsh Parliament to request the Welsh Government to encourage and support social work students from all backgrounds, remove barriers to the profession, and develop a greater parity of esteem between the Health and Social care workforce.'

For Members and members of the public, there is additional information to that petition that is in our packs and also available online. It was submitted by Cardiff University social work Master's cohort, with 475 signatures. I ask Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. I'll bring Luke Fletcher in.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I think it's welcome that the Welsh Government is working with the Student Loans Company and Social Care Wales as well to remove barriers to student finance. I don't support tuition fees, but that's a debate for another day, otherwise we'll be going on for quite some time here. I was wondering if we could agree to write back to the Government to emphasise the need for this to be resolved quickly and seek assurances as well that the next cohort of students will not face the same hardships. I'd also as well like us to ask how the Welsh Government will ensure equivalent funding as health has for social work training, and the time frame as well to establish this as part of the work to ensure that parity for health and social work students and workforce. This was something that was consistently brought up with me by members of the Royal College of Nursing last time we all met them in the Senedd. And finally—apologies, Chair, for the long list of requests—I would also like us, really, to highlight these concerns to Social Care Wales and Student Finance Wales as well. 

Diolch, Luke, for that. There's been a number of requests, and I tend to agree with them all; I can see nodding from Members as well. I think it's important to note that this petition is submitted by a cohort of Master's students, where any change to this policy—and we do welcome the Welsh Government's position—or urgency to this policy will actually affect the petitioners themselves. So, I think it's important to note that they really see and really believe in the parity of esteem here. I can see Members agreeing with your suggested actions there, Luke. There we are. Great.

Item 2.2, P-06-1227, 'To get a specialist mental health mother and baby unit in North Wales':

'A mother and baby unit is needed in North Wales so that families don't have to travel to England and for this service to be available in the Welsh language. This is an essential mental health service needed for North Wales.

'In May 2019 after the birth of my son I was admitted to the mother and baby unit in Manchester. It was very difficult for me having to travel to England far away from my family and friends in North Wales. I especially found it hard with me being first language Welsh in a hospital in England. This mental health service is absolutely needed in North Wales, because I believe that my recovery would of been quicker if I was closer to home.

'Having a baby is a life changing experience and some mothers find it harder than others and it is very common for women to have difficulties with their mental health at this time. With this in mind an admission to a mother and baby unit could happen to anyone and is a essential service that is needed for many families.'

This was submitted by Nia Catrin Foulkes with 7,706 signatures. Again, I invite committee members to discuss this petition and any actions. I will bring Buffy Williams in.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank Nia for bringing this petition forward. I would like to write, if we could, to the Minister, please, and find out exactly what the plans are for the MBU for north Wales and where they are thinking of situating one. I'd also like to find out what sort of timescale this project is looking at and what provision will be there for Welsh speakers, because that's vitally important. I'd also like to know how women and families are being consulted on where the MBU will be situated—that is very important. Obviously, this is an emotive subject; this is something I've campaigned long and hard for for a long time, and I think it's very, very important that we have answers now, because this has been going on and on for some time. So, if we could have answers to these questions from the Minister and then revisit this petition, I would be very grateful.

Thank you for that, Buffy. Any other comments from Members? Luke.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Just to say that I agree with Buffy's recommendations there. I think there are a lot of similar concerns in other areas of health. For example, I'm doing a lot of work at the moment when it comes to dementia services. The lack of dementia services in Welsh is a detriment to that person's recovery in the same way that it would've been a detriment to Nia. So, I have a lot of sympathy. But, yes, just to echo, really, that I support Buffy's recommendations there.

Diolch, Luke. I can see that Joel wants to come in as well.

Thank you, Chair. It was just to echo what's already been said. I think it's an extremely important topic that we need to do everything we can to help, really. I agree with what Buffy and Luke have already said.

Okay. Thanks, committee members, for those suggestions, and Buffy, for your recommendations to the committee. I would agree as well. I know, like you, Buffy, that there are Members of the Senedd who have been working hard on this for a number of years now, and there is a feeling that we do need to get answers. So, perhaps the letter can be worded in such a way where we stress the importance of this for the 7,000-plus families who have signed this petition and those many more who go through similar experiences. So, we do thank the petitioner, and we will take that forward.

Item 2.3 is P-06-1233, 'Repeal Coronavirus Regulations and end all Covid-19 restrictions'. The petition reads as follows:

'Abolish all Covid restrictions, restore civil liberties & social freedoms and increase focus on education, guidance, advice and best practices.

'Allow freedom of choice in favour of mental health: Those who wish to isolate at home may do so freely; as may those who wish to return to normal life.'

Again, there is additional information on this petition available online, and it's also in Members' packs. This was submitted by Lauren M, with 89 signatures. I look to bring Members in at this point. I will bring Joel James in.

Thank you, Chair. The difficulty with petitions on COVID, I suppose, is that by the time they come to committee, the landscape has changed quite a bit. I'm conscious now that the restrictions are loosening, and I suspect, with this petition, then, that the best course of action is to close it, because I suspect that what the petitioner is asking for will be met sooner rather than later now, as it seems to be that that's the way we're moving towards, if that makes sense.

Thank you for that, Joel. Are there any other comments from Members? No. I can see agreement. As a member of the previous Senedd's committee at the height of coronavirus, I fully understand and have been through a number of petitions like this, where the place we are in the public health environment does change rapidly, and many of these petitions are somewhat outdated at the time when we seek to consider them. So, there's been a suggestion to close this on that basis, and Members are in agreement. And it's also worth noting, isn't it, that this is an ongoing conversation within the Senedd, where political parties have their different approaches, and it's debated near enough every week, and I'm sure we'll continue to do so for the near future?

Item 2.4, P-06-1236, 'Women should be regularly screened with a blood test called CA125 to detect for ovarian cancer'.

'My Mother has recently been diagnosed with primary ovarian cancer and secondary in her peritoneum. If women were regularly screened with the blood test CA125 they would be able to detect early signs like they screen for cervical cancer and mammograms for breast cancer. Ovarian cancer is quite a silent cancer and when women get any symptoms it is usually more advanced. Being detected early would get women treated quicker and prevent deaths.'

And this was submitted by Julia Elaina Morris, with 389 signatures, and I invite Members to discuss this petition. I'll now bring in Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Can I just start by saying I completely understand where this petition is coming from, and sympathise wholeheartedly with the petitioner? It has been quite a difficult one to read, if I'm honest, and to do a bit of research on. I can see that the Minister says the Welsh Government supports early diagnosis, but that it's following the advice of the UK National Screening Committee, which, from what I gather, does not recommend population screening for ovarian cancer. And if I recall as well, there was a similar petition submitted in 2016. So, our predecessor Petitions Committee published a report on its consideration of this petition, and it was quite similar, in February 2017. And in that report itself, it said that the evidence does not support the introduction of a population screening programme. Of course, that report was debated in Plenary in March 2017, I believe.

I think it is a positive that the Government's willing to change its position, if the medical advice changes. I think now it's a matter of waiting for that medical advice to change, so I can't see what more the Petitions Committee can do in that regard. So, I would recommend that we thank the petitioner and close the petition as well, but I would also like to ask that we send the record of that debate, or at least the report, to the petitioner, just so they can see what was raised at the time as well.

Diolch yn fawr, Luke. And I can see all Members agree with that, and we can certainly send those reports and the debate to the petitioner, and, again, note the Government's willingness to change. And we've seen, haven't we, already this year the importance of women's health to so many, and, certainly, this Petitions Committee has seen that? So, we do thank the petitioner for submitting this petition and, of course, we can send those details. Members of the Senedd, I'm sure, will keep an active watch in this space.

Item 2.5, P-06-1237, 'Look at using Teacher Assessed Grades for learners unable to sit November GCSE exams as a result of a positive COVID test. Ensure fairer arrangements are in place for the May exams'.

'My son in Year 11 had fully prepared to sit his GCSE Numeracy exams on 2nd and 4th of November. On October 31st he did a Lateral flow test as advised by the Welsh Government. This was positive, followed by a positive PCR test. This meant he could not sit his exams despite being fully prepared by the school for them at this time. He should not be—and neither should others who have Covid—be disadvantaged by the pandemic. They have had to work so hard to get to this point.'

And this was submitted by Leanne Grabham, with 126 signatures, and I will invite Members to discuss this petition. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank the petitioner for bringing this petition forward, and sympathise with her also. It's been a very trying time for staff, teachers and pupils. I don't really know where else we can go with this petition, because the Minister seems very set with what he has planned. I know it's been spoken about quite a lot on the Chamber floor. It's very difficult for young people who have revised for these exams then not to be able to sit them. I appreciate that, I really do, but I think if we thank the petitioner and close this petition, and then if we can just continue on the Chamber floor to question the Minister and ensure that these pupils' voices are not going unheard, I think that is the way forward for us.

Thank you, Buffy, for those. Any other comments from Members, or are Members in agreement? Yes, I can see Members are in agreement, and, again, these exams are hard enough as they are, never mind with the pandemic, but it's difficult to see where the Petitions Committee can take this, as Buffy says, but I'm sure Members will bring this up again and scrutinise the Minister on his decisions. Thank you for that, Buffy.

Item 2.6, P-06-1238, 'Ban Polystyrene and other single use plastics!'

'On the 3rd July 2021 the European Union have banned a range of single use plastics including Polystyrene, Plastic cutlery, Plastic plates, straws, cups and even plastic earbuds. There is a complete ban across all 27 member states.

'I think Wales should follow in their footsteps and we should ban these items too.

'Many takeaways in Wales still use 100s of polystyrene containers daily because they are the cheapest option. Please support this.'

And, again, there is additional information in Members' packs and available online, and this is submitted by Nafisa Derradji, with 130 signatures. I'll invite Members to discuss this important petition, bringing in Joel James first. Joel.

Thank you, Chair, and I agree with you, it's an extremely important petition. I'm conscious also that it's got strong cross-party support within the Senedd and also in the previous Senedd, and, correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's very much going that way that the Welsh Government has promised to bring in legislation at the end of this Senedd term to bring this in. I'm also conscious that the Youth Parliament, as well, was strongly in favour of these proposals. So, I think we're getting there, and, with that in mind, it's almost certain, I think, it will happen in law, so I think we probably could just thank the petitioner for raising such an issue and close the petition.

Thank you, Joel. Luke.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. This is actually quite an important one, especially when we consider the climate and nature crisis that the Senedd and Welsh Government have declared. In the previous committee, I mentioned that I once wanted to be a marine biologist, so what I'm about to say links to that. I found it interesting that the Marine Conservation Society in 2021, as part of their big beach clean, found that 75 per cent of all the litter collected was plastic or polystyrene. So, I think that this just emphasises the importance, really. We know about the microplastics in the sea and what damage that's doing to the environment, we know how important the sea is, as well, to tackling the climate crisis, so, whilst it might not look positive that we're closing the petition, as Joel mentioned, there's a lot of cross-party support for this, and I think it's something that we will see very soon in the Senedd.

Thank you, Luke, and we can see agreement from all Members on this important petition. What I would just add, with this sense of cross-party collaboration on the issue, is it would be good to see this implemented within Welsh law as soon as possible, and I certainly thank Nafisa for tabling this petition with our committee.

Item 3 on the agenda: updates to previous petitions. Item 3.1, P-05-949, 'SAVE COWBRIDGE OLD GIRLS' SCHOOL FROM DEMOLITION'. This was submitted by Sara Pedersen, with 5,541 signatures. Members will be aware we've considered this petition on a number of occasions, and we've written to Business Committee in this Senedd to request a debate. Since then, we've been in numbers of correspondence between Vale of Glamorgan Council business committee and, of course, our own committee. We did note the petition in the last meeting, but, obviously, we prioritised the petition for cervical screening, which reached over 30,000 signatures in three days. The issue is still live, and therefore I recommend to the committee that we do seek to write back to Business Committee with that information that we've had and gained from the correspondence, to suggest that we do debate this issue. But, as we've previously said in committee, we'll seek to widen the scope of that debate. Joel, I can see you wanted to come in there.

Thank you, Chair. It's just to agree with exactly everything you've said, really. I'm conscious that as a committee we've recommended this twice, I think, in the past, for debate—the last Senedd term and now. I think we definitely have to keep pushing that so it does come to a debate, because what's the point of having that facility, then, if they reach the numbers and it doesn't come to a debate? But I also agree with you that I think there's definitely scope to expand this discussion so other Members of the Senedd can come in with other issues as well. It's definitely important to talk about the Cowbridge school, especially the importance it's played within girls' education in south Wales, and I would even say in Wales on the whole—sorry, my pronunciation was quite bad there. So, just to support what you've said, Chair, and to push this for debate.

Thanks for that—diolch yn fawr, Joel. I can see Members are in agreement there. I think what would be useful for Business Committee as well, if I can ask the clerking team to do so—obviously, the Petitions Committee so far in this Senedd has had an increase in publicity and an increase in our workload. It may be worth while giving the Business Committee a heads up of what is in the pipeline to come to committee that has either already reached the threshold of those to be considered for debate, and I should stress that all petitions are only to be considered for debate by the committee and it's at the committee's discretion, but also those that are collecting signatures at a pace where it looks likely to exceed that as well, just to give an indication that we may want some time in the Plenary agenda in the future.

Moving on: 3.2, P-06-1160, 'Require local Welsh exam centres to accept home-educated students for public exams'. This was submitted by Claire Woolley, with 393 signatures. I'd like to bring Members in at this point to discuss, and I'll bring Buffy Williams in.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank the petitioner as well for bringing this petition forward. As you know, I've been very vocal about home-schooled children, about the way they have to pay for their examinations and the right to sit examinations. So, I think we've got a little win here now with the way that the Minister has noted this petition and the actions that he's putting in place. I'm pleased to see that there's money being provided to the Welsh examination board to provide extra provision for these children. It's really important that they're listened to and that the families' voices are listened to as well. Children are home schooled for lots of different reasons—lots of different reasons—and that's got to be taken into account. So, I think we can thank the petitioner, and there's a modicum of success with this petition. I don't know where else we could take this petition as a committee, but I think this is an outcome we should be pleased with. 

Thank you, Buffy. Any other comments from Members? I can see agreement all around. I think we should note that there is a success to this—

Yes.

—petition. We've also written to the petitioner to get a steer on where we could possibly take this, but had no response to that. So, I think you're right with what you recommend there. Also, well done to you, Buffy, who spearheaded this change in the Welsh Parliament. So, da iawn there.

Item 3.3, P-06-1197, 'Heart screenings free for all 11-35 year olds who represent their school or county in sport'. This was submitted by Sharon Owen, with 3,092 signatures. I'd like to invite Members to discuss this petition and also make Members aware that we've received a further briefing today on the matter. Can I bring Joel James in, please?

Thank you, Chair. This is quite a difficult one because it's quite an emotive subject that we're debating here, and on the face of it it's an important thing to try and achieve, but what I'm conscious of is, from the Welsh Government's response, in terms of the funding needed for that longitudinal—. Sorry, Chair, but you know what I'm trying to say, the study. But what I'm also conscious of is the national screening committee doesn’t recommend to do that wide-ranging screening, because of the inaccuracies in the test results in some cases, and also, and I think this is shared by the British Heart Foundation, where they favour more targeted screening on those whose family have a history of heart disease and such. So, the difficulty is, unless that study shows otherwise, I think the only thing we could do at the moment is just to thank the petitioner and maybe even close the petition.

Diolch yn fawr, Joel. Any other comments from Members? I can see agreement with Joel, and I agree with Joel's suggestion there. And as you say, we did have that briefing from the British Heart Foundation, which has been received today. So, I agree with you, and Members do. We will—. It's difficult to see where we can take this forward as a committee and, therefore, we will close this petition. Thank you.

Item 3.4, P-06-1207, 'Start referring to Welsh cities and towns by their Welsh names'. This was submitted by Madison Lorraine, with 108 signatures, and I'd like to invite Members to discuss this petition. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I can see that the commissioner's responded with actually quite a detailed letter. In the letter he notes that his guidance on place names has no statutory force, which I think, actually, poses a question for us in terms of where we can go from here. I would be quite interested in us exploring the idea of putting the commissioner's guidance on the statutory footing, as is already in Ireland, for example, and we can do that by taking evidence from the commissioner directly. He has offered to provide that evidence and, of course, we could look to write to the Minister as well to ask what consideration has been given to this. I'd be hopeful that other members of the committee would agree with that course of action.

Any other comments? Thanks. Diolch yn fawr, Luke. Any other comments from Members? Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. I also touched upon this when it came up last time and, again, with my councillor hat on, I used to be on the Welsh language steering committee, and what we were finding with the suggestions from the commissioner's office—even though, as you said, there's no statutory force behind it—was the amount of push back that these suggestions were getting because it didn't take into account local variations and just, basically, how the language evolved locally, compared to nationally, if that makes sense. One of the issues that we had at the time was that, basically, the names were determined by a group of academics in Bangor University who have probably never ever visited the areas that they're signing. That's the only concern that I have with this sort of petition, really, in the sense of it's very much geared to a one-size-fits-all thing, and I don't necessarily support it, if I'm honest. So, that's my view on it, really. I'd be wary of having so-called experts dictating what place names should be called. I know it's caused a bit of a hoohah locally where I live, where village names have changed, even ones that were in Welsh. The residents thought, 'Well, they were Welsh anyway, why does it need to be changed further?' So, that's my 2p. Sorry, Chair.

Thank you for that, Joel. In terms of where we take this petition, Luke suggested that we do accept the commissioner's offer of seeking some evidence from him. Perhaps, if we do that, some of those valid points that you raise, Joel, can be offered directly to the commissioner as well to seek his views and how we can address those issues that have clearly come up in your constituency and your area. So, therefore, I think we should—. If Members agree with Luke's proposal, then we could seek to take evidence and to write to the Minister on this, and we can have a think if there is anyone else we need to consider for evidence too in the meantime. Do Members agree? I can see they do. Thank you.

Moving on, item 3.5, P-06-1217, 'Open Long Covid one stop medical hubs / clinics'. This was submitted by Lawson Webb, with 1,214 signatures. Again, I note this petition is from the constituency of Pontypridd; there are a number of petitioners from Pontypridd on today's agenda, so well done there. We will seek to find out what is happening in Pontypridd, to try and emulate that across the whole of Wales. But I do invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Buffy Williams. 

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank the petitioner for bringing forward this very, very important petition. I note that the Minister is reviewing future service delivery on long COVID, but I would like, if we could, to write to the Minister to find out how this future delivery is being shaped, and how patient voices are being heard within this delivery plan. I'd also like to find out if the cross-party group on long COVID is feeding in to any decision that the Minister makes on the COVID hubs. I think it's very important that everybody who feels they need to have a say has a say in how this delivery looks. So, if we could write to the Minister and get these answers, and then revisit this petition, I think that's something we can do as a committee, and maybe we can have a positive outcome here. 

Diolch, Buffy. Joel. 

Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to—. Well, Buffy raised an extremely important point there about patient voice. I think that's paramount, because, with long COVID, as we know, it's not—. Everyone's experience is completely different, and I definitely think patient voice is key in terms of shaping that, really, not like a one-size-fits-all policy. So, I think Buffy was quite right there in raising that issue. I think that's quite important.

Diolch, Joel. I can see Luke nodding in agreement, and I too agree. I have a constituent who is very vocal on this importance, and would certainly welcome that being Welsh Government policy, to hear patient voice. And I agree with that. Perhaps we could also keep the cross-party group informed and highlight this petition to them, so that they're made aware of it. The co-chairs are Hefin David and Rhun ap Iorwerth, so we'll make sure that happens too. Thank you, Buffy.

Item 3.6, P-06-1208, 'New laws to protect rare red squirrels from habitat loss which causes population decline'. This was submitted by Dr Craig Shuttleworth, with 10,555 signatures. Members will remember fondly, I think, the debate we had in the Chamber, with excellent contributions from committee members and those right across the Chamber, including the Senedd's own super furry animal, Darren Millar from Clwyd West. I think it was a positive debate in which we should welcome the positive response from the Welsh Government and the Minister to this petition, and how the different management styles there are in Wales—. There has been a suggestion from Dr Shuttleworth that we rewrite to the Minister asking that NRW adopts their approach to red squirrel conservation on Anglesey, in light of their example, in the north-east of Wales. I recommend to committee that we do do that. It's unusual for committee to do such a thing after a petition is debated, but I do suggest that we do follow up on the petitioner's suggestion, but, at the same time, we also close this petition, and of course we will send any correspondence we receive back to the petitioner, but at this point we do close it, following our final letter to the Minister. Are Members in agreement? I can see they are. Excellent, and a big thank you to Craig Shuttleworth for that petition, and the success of the petition too. 

Moving on, item 3.7, P-06-1183, 'Implement a 20MPH speed limit 100 metres either side of the new pedestrian crossing in Glan Conwy'. This was submitted by local councillor Daniel Worsley, with 85 signatures. Again, Members will be aware that I visited the crossing in Glan Conwy with the former Chair of the Petitions Committee, Janet Finch-Saunders, in her role as Member of this Senedd, at which point it was brought back to committee to write to Conwy County Borough Council about the matter. We have had correspondence back from Conwy council to suggest it's not their responsibility, in which they could have pointed, the local council, to those responsible. However, I do believe we should write to the North and Mid Wales Trunk Road Agent to get them in touch with the community council. The petitioner, on behalf of the community council, has stated and reiterated that they are ready to support the cost of the safety measures. So, I think, if we put them in touch with the trunk road agency, hopefully a solution can be found as soon as possible for this petition, and I wish the petitioner every success in doing that. But I do recommend to committee members that we close this petition following that introduction between the two parties. Are Members in agreement? I see they are. Thank you very much.

Item 4, then, a motion under Standing Order 17.42. It does conclude public business today, and we will go into private session to consider our responses and review the committee timetable for our workload in coming months. Can I propose, then, to Members, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that we do resolve to meet in private for the remaining items? Members, I see, are content. They are. Before we close today's meeting, then, I should note the next meeting is in two weeks' time, on 7 February, at 2 o'clock. And, again, we will be remotely conducting business as the Petitions Committee. And, on that note, I thank all petitioners, I thank our clerking team, Members and the broadcasting team, and I will close today's Petitions Committee. Diolch yn fawr.