National Assembly for Wales

Prynhawn da a chroeso, bawb. Welcome, everybody, to this virtual meeting of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. As per normal, the meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual.

Just to remind everybody that, apart from the usual procedural adaptations, everything else is as normal for these proceedings today, and the Standing Order requirements remain in place. We've had one apology today, and that's from our colleague Alun Davies, who can't be with us. So, if we do have any technical difficulties today with the virtual meeting, then we'll try and overcome them by getting everybody back on screen as soon as possible.

As per normal, if you can make sure that any mobile devices are switched to silent mode. We're operating through the mediums of the Welsh and English today, and interpretation is available and, of course, our operators behind the scenes are controlling microphones, so there's no need to mute and unmute. 

That brings us straight on to the main items today. Under item No. 2, we have an instrument that raises no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3, and this is a made-negative resolution instrument, SL(6)066, the Agricultural Holdings (Units of Production) (Wales) (No. 2) Order 2021. This sets out the figures for agricultural incomes that are associated with various farming activities, which are used then in determining whether or not the land in question is 'a commercial unit of agricultural land', and such determination is one of the factors in establishing the right of succession for certain agricultural tenancies. So, the current Order in force is the Agricultural Holdings (Units of Production) (Wales) Order 2021, which covers the period from 12 September 2019 to 11 September 2020. This Order will cover the period from 12 September 2020 to 11 September 2021. Our Senedd lawyers have not identified any points for reporting, so I ask colleagues if they’re happy to agree the draft report, please. Thank you very much. Thank you, both.

That brings us to item No. 3, instruments that do raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3, and under this we have item 3.1, SL(6)071, the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions, International Travel, Notification and Public Health Information to Travellers) (Wales) (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2021. We’re very familiar with these coming in front of us. The instrument makes amendments to several sets of regulations relating to international travel, and these amendments are made to provisions including those relating to country lists, testing and notification requirements, and the recognition of vaccinations from other countries and territories. Our lawyers have identified one technical point and four merits points for reporting. So, if I could invite our lawyers to highlight any particular issues arising from the draft report, please.

Diolch. As regards the technical point, it notes an incorrect cross-reference, and the Welsh Government's response was received this morning acknowledging the error, which will be addressed by a correction slip. Correction slips are often used to address very minor and obvious errors in legislation. A correction slip is a short document that will be published alongside the regulations on legislation.gov.uk to alert people to the correction.

There are also some standard merits points, and there is a merits point that notes an error in the explanatory memorandum, specifically the paragraphs that address human rights issues, and those paragraphs refer to the travel operator liability regulations, but the travel operator liability regulations are not engaged here. The Welsh Government accepts the error and has now laid a revised explanatory memorandum.

That's excellent. Thank you very much, Gareth. Are we happy to agree those reporting points there? We are. Thank you very much. Thank you, Gareth. Excellent.

That brings us on, then, to an affirmative resolution instrument, item 3.2, SL(6)067, the Representation of the People (Amendment) (Wales) (Coronavirus) (No. 2) Regulations 2021. We have several papers relating to this in our pack, including a letter from the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and the Welsh Government response. So, this instrument makes provision in relation to proxy voting at certain local government by-elections held between the coming into force of these regulations and 28 March 2022. We do have a Plenary debate scheduled for this instrument for tomorrow, but, for the committee's attention, our lawyers have identified two merits points for reporting. Gareth, over to you again.

Diolch. The draft report notes there's been no formal consultation, and it also highlights several errors in the Welsh version of the explanatory memorandum. The Welsh Government has responded, accepting the errors, and a revised explanatory memorandum has now been laid.

Thank you again for that, Gareth. Are we happy to note those reporting points? There we are, and we're agreed on that. Thank you very much. 

That takes us on to item 3.3, which is SL(6)069, the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 19) Regulations 2021. Again, we're very familiar with these coming in front of us. In our papers, we also have a letter from the First Minister relating to this, and a written statement. So, from 11 October 2021, the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) Regulations 2021—the principal regulations—have required certain premises to take reasonable measures to ensure that adults are only present if they have what is commonly referred to as a COVID pass. This instrument amends the principal regulations by adding cinemas, concert halls and theatres to the list of premises where a COVID pass is required, and the changes take effect from 7 a.m. on 15 November 2021. Now, our lawyers have identified three merits points for reporting. And, actually, I'll pass this to—. I believe, Gareth, you're going to take us through this as well, but there's an interesting point here related to some of the wording of the written statement and the guidance of Ministers.

As regards the merits points, they're just some of the standard coronavirus-related merits points relating to, for example, no formal consultation and no regulatory impact assessment.

Thank you very much for that, Gareth. The point that I want to draw Members' attention to is some of the wording, in addition to the merits points, in the written statement, and the word 'must'. We're very familiar in drafting terms with the use of 'must', but here it's where 'must' is used in relation to self-isolation for fully vaccinated people. However, neither the No. 19 nor the No. 20 regulations, which is our next item on the agenda, make provision to require isolation, as described in the statement. So, we might return to this in discussion, because we might want to write to the First Minister to seek clarification on this, because, in that hierarchy of legislation between guidance, regulations, primary legislation, it's important that we try and seek clarity. Now, this debate is scheduled for tomorrow, so I wonder, Gareth, or Gareth, would you be happy if we agree now that we do write for clarification on that basis? Yes.

That would be fine, Chair. Yes.

That would be good. Okay. And I think we've got agreement from committee members, from Peter and Rhys. Lovely. We'll do that. Are there any other items relating to this, Gareth, from our lawyers' perspective, or is that it? Thank you very much. Okay. 

That brings us on, then, to item 3.4, which is, indeed, SL(6)070, the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 20) Regulations 2021. This amends the principal regulations and the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Functions of Local Authorities etc.) (Wales) Regulations 2020 to provide that they will now expire on 25 February 2022, and the requirement on the Welsh Ministers to review the need for and the proportionality of the restrictions and requirements in the principal regulations every 21 days remains in place. Our lawyers have identified three merits points for reporting. Gareth, in your hands again, please.

Again, just the standard coronavirus-related merits points.

Thank you very much. We're very familiar with these. Thank you very much. Are we happy to agree the reporting points? We are.

That takes us on to item No. 4, the papers to note that are in front of us this week. We have, under item 4.1, correspondence with Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd related to the evidence session on the Commission on Justice in Wales report. I ask Members to note the correspondence with Lord Thomas and his acceptance to attend an evidence session, as invited, on 22 November. Happy to note that? We are.

Then, item 4.2, a written statement by the Welsh Government relating to consent to the UK Government exercising a delegated legislative power in a devolved area in relation to Wales. So, I invite Members to note the written statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution confirming that the Welsh Government has consented to the making of an Order under section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998 in consequence of the Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018. Members will recall that the Counsel General wrote to the committee on 8 October to note his intention to give consent to the making of this particular Order. So, are we happy to note that? We are. Thank you.

In which case, we move to item No. 5, which is the motion under Standing Order 17.42, resolving to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting, so that we can get on with our business now in private. Do Members agree now to move into private session? We do. Thank you very much. We'll just wait the customary 10 seconds and for the clearance that we are in private.