National Assembly for Wales

Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

08/11/2018

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed AM Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Caroline Jones AM
Dai Lloyd AM
David Melding AM
Jenny Rathbone AM
Mick Antoniw AM
Rhianon Passmore AM

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AM Y Gweinidog Diwylliant, Twristiaeth a Chwaraeon
Minister for Culture, Tourism and Sport
Dr Gwenllian Lansdown Davies Prif Weithredwr, Mudiad Meithrin
Chief Executive, Mudiad Meithrin
Dr Ioan Matthews Prif Weithredwr, Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol
Chief Executive, Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol
Huw Davies Pennaeth Cyllid, Diwylliant, Chwaraeon a Thwristiaeth, Llywodraeth Cymru
Head of Finance, Culture, Sport and Tourism, Welsh Government
Jason Thomas Cyfarwyddwr Diwylliant, Chwaraeon a Thwristiaeth, Llywodraeth Cymru
Director, Culture, Sport and Tourism, Welsh Government
Llinos Roberts ColegauCymru
ColegauCymru
Lois Roberts Swyddog y Gymraeg, Coleg y Cymoedd
Welsh Language Officer, Coleg y Cymoedd
Professor R. Gwynedd Parry Athro'r Gyfraith a Hanes Cyfreithiol, Cyfarwyddwr Dysgu ac Addysgu, Coleg y Gyfraith, Prifysgol Abertawe
Professor of Law and Legal History, Director of Learning and Teaching, College of Law, Swansea University
Rebecca Williams Dirprwy Ysgrifennydd Cyffredinol a Swyddog Polisi, UCAC--Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru
Deputy General Secretary and Policy Officer, UCAC--Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a oedd yn bresennol

National Assembly for Wales Officials in Attendance

Adam Vaughan Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Martha Da Gama Howells Ail Glerc
Second Clerk
Osian Bowyer Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Steve George Clerc
Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:32.

The meeting began at 09:32.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Diolch a chroeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu y bore yma. Eitem 1 ar yr agenda—cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. A oes gan unrhyw un rhywbeth i'w ddatgan yma heddiw? Na. Ymddiheuriadau a dirprwyon—cafwyd ymddiheuriadau oddi wrth Jane Hutt a Vikki Howells a Rhianon Passmore. Dyma gyfarfod cyntaf Dai Lloyd ers iddo gael ei ail-ethol i'r pwyllgor yma, felly croeso i Dai, a, hefyd, i roi ar y record, diolch i Siân Gwenllian am ei gwaith hithau ar y pwyllgor yma hefyd. Nid ydym ni'n disgwyl unrhyw ymddiheuriadau ychwanegol. 

Thank you and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. Item 1—introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. Does any Member have anything to declare here today? No. Apologies and substitutions—we've received an apology from Jane Hutt, Vikki Howells and Rhianon Passmore. This is the first meeting for Dai Lloyd since he was re-elected to the committee, so welcome to Dai, and, also, to place on record our thanks to Siân Gwenllian for her work on this committee as well. We're not expecting any other additional apologies. 

2. Craffu ar Gyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer 2019-20 - Gweinidog Diwylliant, Twristiaeth a Chwaraeon
2. Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2019-20 - Minister for Culture, Tourism and Sport

Eitem 2 felly—craffu ar gyllideb ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer 2019-20, Gweinidog Diwylliant, Twristiaeth a Chwaraeon. Croeso i Dafydd Elis-Thomas—

Item 2 therefore—scrutiny of the Welsh Government draft budget for 2019-20, the Minister for Culture, Tourism and Sport. Welcome to Dafydd Elis-Thomas—

Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you. 

—Jason Thomas, cyfarwyddwr diwylliant, chwaraeon a thwristiaeth Llywodraeth Cymru, a hefyd, i Huw Davies, sef pennaeth cyllid diwylliant, chwaraeon a thwristiaeth Llywodraeth Cymru. Croeso mawr i chi am ddod yma heddiw. Fel rydych chi siŵr o fod yn gwybod, byddwn ni'n gofyn cwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol, a byddwn ni'n cychwyn gyda'r cwestiynau hynny nawr. 

I ddechrau, hoffwn i ofyn i chi: ar ddydd Llun, roedd tystiolaeth i Bwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus y Senedd ar yr hyn oedd yn digwydd yn Pinewood ar ariannu ffilm. Dywedoch chi wrthym ni y byddech chi'n ysgrifennu atom ar ôl y cyfarfod hwnnw gyda diweddariad ar y sefyllfa. Yng nghyd-destun arian y media investment budget, rydym ni ar ddeall bod lot o gwmnïau eisiau gwybod beth sydd yn digwydd gyda'r gyllideb honno. Os medrwch chi roi diweddariad i ni am yr hyn sydd yn digwydd gyda'r gyllideb honno, byddai hynny'n help mawr i ni.

—Jason Thomas, director of culture, sport and tourism for the Welsh Government, and also, Huw Davies, head of finance of culture, sport and tourism for the Welsh Government. Welcome to you all. As you surely know, you'll have questions on the basis of different themes, and we'll start with those questions now. 

To start with, I'd like to ask you: on Monday, there was evidence to the Public Accounts Committee of the Senedd on what was happening in Pinewood and the funding of film. You told us that you would write to us after that meeting with an update on the situation. In the context of the media investment budget funding, we understand that there are a number of companies who want to know what's happening with that budget. If you could give us provide us with an update of what's happening with that budget, that would be very helpful. 

Fedraf i ddim siarad, wrth gwrs, am unrhyw beth yn ymwneud â Pinewood achos nid oeddwn i'n Weinidog ar y pryd, ond mi allwn i ateb, ac mi ofynnaf i'r swyddogion ateb, ynglŷn ag unrhyw faterion sydd yn aros o'r gorffennol yna. Ond mi fedraf i ateb beth yn union sydd yn digwydd gyda'r gyllideb cyfryngau. Mae'r gyllideb cyfryngau, a'r ddau gorff sydd yn gweithredu'r gyllideb yna ar gyfer buddsoddi mewn cyfryngau, ac mewn darlledu—mae'r panelau rheini parhau i gynghori yr aelodau a oedd yn rhan o'r gwaith cynghori, ond mae penderfyniadau yn cael eu gwneud gen i fel y mae'r ceisiadau yn dod drwodd. Pan fyddwn ni wedi sefydlu Cymru Greadigol o fewn y misoedd nesaf, yna fe fydd y gwaith manwl ar hynny yn cael ei wneud gan y swyddogion presennol, ond o fewn fframwaith yr hyn a fydd yn cael ei alw'n 'Cymru Greadigol' o fewn yr adran. Ein bwriad ni ydy sefydlu Cymru Greadigol—nid rhywbeth mor ffurfiol â Cadw, sydd yn gorff sydd â chyfrifoldebau statudol ar wahân, ond i'w sefydlu fel corff a fydd yn dod â'r swyddogion ynghyd o dan reolaeth Jason o fewn yr adran i weithredu ar holl faes gwariant Cymru Greadigol, ac mi fydd yna gyllideb glir o fewn yr adran o gwmpas tua £30 miliwn a fydd yn cynnwys y cyllid presennol sydd yn cael ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer noddi cyfryngau.

I can't speak on anything related to Pinewood because I wasn't Minister at that time, but I can respond, and I will ask officials to respond, on any remaining issues. But I can respond in terms of what exactly is happening with the media budget. The media budget, and the two bodies using that budget to invest in media and broadcasting—those panels continue to advise the members who were part of the advisery work, but decisions are being made by me as those applications come through. When we will have established Creative Wales over the next few months, then the detailed work in that area will be done by current officials, but within the framework of what will be called ‘Creative Wales’ within the department. Our intention is to establish Creative Wales—not on as formal a basis as Cadw, which is a body with separate statutory responsibilities, but to establish it as an organisation that will bring officials together under the management of Jason within the department in order to act on all of that expenditure. And there will be a clear budget within the department of around £30 million that will include the current funding, which is being used to sponsor the media.

Jason, do you want to add anything to that?

09:35

Just an idea of timelines, if you could—that would help.

I guess the broadest answer to it, really, is—in terms of anybody who is looking to come and invest in Wales, bringing film production to Wales—the door is very much open. We have the broad packages, such as the economy futures fund, and, as we gave evidence on Monday—I was here, in the room next door, with Andrew—we've got a number of projects in the pipeline this year, which will come through that portal. So, anybody who’s got an interest in coming here—the door is very much open.

Specifically on the media investment budget—that kind of process is on pause at the moment. We did commit to the Public Accounts Committee to come back with various notes on the back of that. Does that make sense?

So, at the moment nobody can apply for funding via the media investment budget.

Of course they can—they apply as they've done in the past.

So, what's on pause, then? Sorry, but, Jason Thomas, you just said it was on pause, so—.

The actual process of the media investment budget—so, we have an external panel that comes to scrutinise projects and that's on pause at the moment, while we review that, as we said in evidence on Monday, but for projects that want to come to Wales, the door is very much still open, so the mechanisms of support still exist. The process for doing it via the media investment budget is on pause at the moment.

Yes, I mean—. So, for people who want to put forward bids, I think that's a bit confusing—

May I clear it up? As far as I'm concerned, there may be pauses in the internal mechanism, but the Minister and his leading officials are not on pause and never will be.

Okay, so we can give them the message that if they want to apply for funding, they can do that as they would have done before. Is that—?

One hundred per cent—absolutely. 

Brilliant, that's all I wanted to hear. 

Ocê, symudwn ymlaen, felly, at gwestiynau ynglŷn â'r gyllideb sydd wedi dod atom gennych chi fel Llywodraeth. A oes modd i chi roi gwybodaeth ynglŷn â sut ydych yn cynllunio a chyflwyno'r gyllideb yng nghyd-destun cenedlaethau’r dyfodol? Sut y mae hynny wedi dylanwadu ar ddyraniadau yn y portffolio penodol yma?

Okay, we'll move on, therefore, to questions on the budget that we have had from you as a Government. Could you provide us with information on how you're planning the budget in the context of future generations and how has that influenced allocations in this specific portfolio?

Wel, efallai y gallaf ddweud rhywbeth mwy cyffredinol ynglŷn â sut rydw i'n meddwl y dylai'r Llywodraeth a finnau, fel Gweinidog unigol o fewn y Llywodraeth, weithredu yng nghyd-destun y ddeddfwriaeth llesiant cenedlaethau'r dyfodol. Nid proses o weithredu ar gyfer ceisiadau unigol yn unig yw'r Ddeddf yma. Mae'r Ddeddf yma yn sail i gyfansoddiad Cymru ac, yn wir, i'r holl weithgaredd y mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei weithredu. Felly, rydw i'n gobeithio ein bod ni wedi mewnoli ym mhrosesau'r Llywodraeth, fel Gweinidogion ac fel swyddogion, yr ystyriaethau pwysig ynglŷn â hynny.

I ddangos, fel petai, enghraifft ymarferol o sut y mae hyn yn gweithio, rydw i'n siŵr y byddwch chi fel pwyllgor yn gyfarwydd â'r llythyrau cylch gorchwyl a anfonwyd ym mis Mawrth eleni ac a fydd yn cael eu diwygio cyn bo hir. Ymhob un o'r llythyrau yma, rydym yn gosod gerbron y frawddeg yma yn y rhagair, yn y llythyr rhagarweiniol, ac rydw i'n dyfynnu yn yr achos yma o'r un ar 13 Mawrth eleni, a anfonwyd at Carol Bell fel cadeirydd dros dro yr amgueddfa, ond mae'r un ymadrodd, neu rywbeth tebyg, yn y llythyrau i Gyngor Celfyddydau Cymru, i Gomisiwn Brenhinol Henebion Cymru ac i Lyfrgell Cenedlaethol Cymru. A dyma'r frawddeg roeddwn i am ei dyfynu:

'Yn sail i bopeth yr ydym yn ei wneud, mae ein nodau llesiant a'n hamcanion fel a nodwyd yn Neddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru). Dylai'r pum ffordd o weithio fod yn integredig o fewn eich cynllun strategol a dylech ddangos sut yr ydych yn cyflawni yr amcanion llesiant yr ydych wedi eu pennu mewn ymateb i ofynion y Ddeddf ar gyrff cyhoeddus.'

Felly, mae'r Ddeddf yma yn ganolog i weithrediad yr holl broses—nid rhywbeth rydym ni'n ei ystyried ar wahân a dweud, 'O, gyda llaw, rydym ni'n gallu ticio pa ran o'r Ddeddf yn fan hyn.' Rydym ni'n disgwyl i bawb sydd yn cael unrhyw gyllid oddi wrthym ni i fod wedi ystyried y materion yma yn gyson, ac felly, pan ydym ni'n dyrannu cyllideb, mae'r cyfan o fewn y fframwaith. Heblaw am hynny, nid wyf i'n meddwl y byddwn i'n gallu dweud bod y Ddeddf yma yn gweithredu fel y dylai hi.

Well, perhaps I could make some more general comments on how I believe the Government and I, as an individual Minister within Government, should operate in the context of the well-being of future generations Act. This Act is not a process of acting in terms of individual applications. This legislation is the basis of the Welsh constitution and, indeed, for all of the activities undertaken by Government. Therefore, I do hope that we will have internalised in Government procedures, as Ministers and as officials, the important considerations in relation to this legislation.

To give you a practical example of how this is working, I'm sure you as a committee will be familiar with the remit letters sent in March of this year and that will soon be amended. In each of these letters, we put forward this sentence in the foreword, and I quote in this case from the letter of 13 March this year, which was sent to Carol Bell as interim chair of the museum, but the same phrase or something similar appears in the letter to the Arts Council of Wales, the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales and the National Library of Wales:

'Underpinning everything we do are the aims and wellbeing goals identified with the Wellbeing of Future Generations (Wales) Act. The five ways of working should be integrated within your strategic plan and you should demonstrate how you are delivering the well-being objectives that you have set in response to the requirements of the Act on public bodies.'

Therefore, this legislation is central to the operation of the whole process. It's not something that we consider as a bolt-on, and say, 'By the way, we can tick a box in terms of the legislation here.' We expect everyone who receives any funding from us to have given consistent consideration to these issues, and therefore, when we allocate a budget, it is all within that framework. Other than that, I don't think that I could say that this legislation was working as it should.

09:40

Diolch am hynny. Yn amlwg, mae yna gytundeb wedi bod yn y maes yma rhwng y Llywodraeth a Phlaid Cymru. Beth yw'ch cynlluniau ariannu ar gyfer y prif gyrff sydd yn eich portffolio chi ar ôl i'r cytundeb hwnnw ddod i ben?

Thank you for that. Clearly, there has been an agreement in this area between the Government and Plaid Cymru. What are your funding plans for the main bodies in this area in your portfolio once that agreement comes to an end?

Wel, nid wyf yn siŵr a yw'r cytundeb yn mynd i ddod i ben, ac ym mha ffurf y bydd yn dod i ben. A gaf i ei gwneud hi'n glir—? Fel Gweinidog a oedd yn rhan o grŵp Plaid Cymru pan wnaed y cytundeb yma—nid oeddwn i'n rhan o'r trafodaethau. Nid wyf i wedi cymryd rhan yn y trafodaethau, ond mae'r trafodaethau yna wedi cael eu harwain gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, gan mai fo a oedd yn gyfrifol am y trafodaethau ar y dechrau. Ac yna, mae'r dyraniadau cyfan a gytunwyd yn y gyllideb wedi cael eu gweithredu, ac mae'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, rydw i'n deall, yn mynd i gwrdd ag arweinydd neu gynrychiolwyr grŵp Plaid Cymru i drafod y sefyllfa ymhellach. Cyn belled ag yr ydw i yn y cwestiwn, mi fuaswn i'n croesawu unrhyw awgrymiadau sydd yn dod o fewn fy nghyllideb i a fyddai'n pwysleisio unrhyw ddatblygiad pellach yn y berthynas gyllidol.

Well, I'm not sure if that agreement is going to come to an end, and in what form it will come to an end. May I make it clear—? As a Minister who was part of the Plaid Cymru group when this agreement was reached—I wasn't part of the negotiations. I haven't participated in those negotiations, but those discussions have been led by the Cabinet Secretary, because he was responsible for the initial negotiations. And then, the allocations agreed in the budget have now been put in place, and the Cabinet Secretary, as I understand it, will meet with the leader or representatives of the Plaid Cymru group to discuss the situation further. As far as I am concerned, I would welcome any suggestions related to my budget that would emphasise any further developments in that budgetary relationship.

Grêt, diolch yn fawr iawn. O ran newid emphasis o fewn y portffolio tuag at atal, er enghraifft—sut mae eich portffolio chi yn gallu helpu, drwy dargedu'r rheini sydd â phroblemau iechyd meddwl, sut ydych chi'n gallu bod yn rhan o'r agenda iechyd yn fwy rhagweithiol—a oes yna newid emphasis yn mynd i fod o fewn eich portffolio chi o ran y gyllideb ar atal rhai o'r pethau yma rhag mynd yn waeth, ac felly, wedyn, o ran siarad gyda'ch cydweithwyr yn y Cabinet ar sut ydych chi'n gallu dylanwadu ar yr hyn maen nhw'n ei wneud o fewn eu cyllidebau nhw?

Great, thank you very much. In terms of a change of emphasis in the portfolio, for example—in terms of how your portfolio can help in targeting those who have mental health problems and how you can be part of the health agenda in a more proactive way—is there going to be a change in emphasis in your portfolio in terms of the budget on preventing some of these things from getting worse, and then in speaking with your colleagues in the Cabinet on how you can influence what they're doing within their budgets?

Na, nid fel yna rydym ni'n gweithio. Y ffordd rydym ni'n gweithio ydy bod y Gweinidogion perthnasol, y tri Gweinidog rydw i'n delio efo nhw fwyaf—yn amlwg, yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet iechyd—. Rydym ni'n trafod yn wythnosol, yn llythrennol, y ffordd rydym ni'n cydweithio. Ac mae gyda ni gronfa, a sefydlwyd gennym ni ac a gyhoeddwyd y llynedd, sydd yn benodol yn gronfa o £5 miliwn, gyda phrojectau newydd o gydweithrediad, ac mae hynny yn rhoi blaenoriaeth i iechyd meddwl ymhlith y materion yna—ac yn yr un modd yn y trafodaethau rydym ni'n eu cael gyda'r Gweinidog addysg a hefyd gyda'r Gweinidog amgylchedd. Ond rydym ni hefyd wedi sicrhau bod y tri chorff cyhoeddus mawr sydd yn atebol i'r Llywodraeth yn y meysydd hyn, sef y corff ynglŷn â hyrwyddo iechyd cyhoeddus—. Mae'r corff yna a Chyfoeth Naturiol Cymru a Chwaraeon Cymru wedi cyfarfod yn ffurfiol unwaith, mewn cyfarfod llawn o swyddogion y cyrff yna, i drafod sut maen nhw'n cydweithredu, ac maen nhw wedi adrodd yn ôl ar hynny i mi.

Ac wedyn rydym ni'n ceisio gosod y gyfundrefn yma o gydweithio o fewn gweithgaredd y Llywodraeth yn gyffredinol. Felly, nid mater o edrych ar y gyllideb ac yna, ar ôl inni benderfynu blaenoriaethau, ddweud, 'O, rydym ni eisiau gofyn, plis, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet iechyd neu amgylchedd neu addysg, a allwch chi helpu ni ynglŷn â hyn?' Nid fel hynny mae'n gweithio, ond gweld ffordd i weithredu ar y cyd a cheisio sicrhau cyllid ar draws y Llywodraeth, oherwydd nid oes gyda ni, fel na ŵyr pawb, gyllideb fawr yn y meysydd rydym ni â chyfrifoldeb amdanyn nhw. Mae gyda ni, wrth gwrs, wariant sylweddol ym maes twristiaeth—ond nid yw hwnnw yn berthnasol i'r pwyllgor yma—ond yn y meysydd eraill, rydym ni'n sicrhau bod yna wariant yn gallu cael ei ddenu ar draws y Llywodraeth i gefnogi rhaglenni arbennig.

Huw, a fuaset ti'n licio esbonio yn gliriach nag ydw i wedi gallu gwneud, efallai, sut mae hyn yn gweithio?

No, that's not how we work. We work by ensuring that the relevant Ministers, the three Cabinet Secretaries I deal with most—obviously, the Cabinet Secretary for health—. We have weekly discussions, quite literally, on how we can work together. And we have a fund that was established by us and which was announced last year, which is a specific £5 million fund, with projects in terms of collaboration, and that gives priority to mental health amongst those other issues—and likewise with the discussions that we have with the Cabinet Secretary for education and the Cabinet Secretary for the environment. But we also ensure that the three major public bodies, which are accountable to Government in these areas, mainly the public health body—. That body and Natural Resources Wales and Sport Wales have met formally once, I believe, in a meeting of those organisations' officials, to discuss how they can collaborate, and they have reported back on that to me.

And then we are seeking to put in place this system of collaboration within the activities of Government more generally. So, it's not just a matter of looking at the budget and then, having decided on priorities, saying, 'Well, we want to ask, please, Cabinet Secretary for Health or Cabinet Secretary for environment or education, can you help us in this area?' That's not how things work. What we do is to seek ways of working in collaboration and try to secure funding across Government, because, as everyone knows, we don't have a huge budget in these areas that we're responsible for, but, of course, we do have significant expenditure in tourism—but this isn't pertinent to this committee—but in the other areas, we do ensure that there is expenditure across Government to support particular programmes.

Huw, would you like to explain more clearly than I've perhaps been able to do about how these things work?

09:45

Wel, rydw i'n meddwl ar y foment ein bod ni mewn sefyllfa lle mae'r cytundeb am ddwy flynedd gyda Phlaid Cymru, ac felly nid yw'r ffigurau yn y gyllideb wedi newid. Ond mae'r Gweinidog yn cyfeirio at y ffaith ein bod ni'n cydweithio ar draws gyda phortffolios eraill a bod mwy, nawr, o rannu cyllidebau, yn arbennig ar yr ochr y physical activity agenda, lle mae yna rannu—ein bod ni a'r ochr iechyd yn rhoi arian at ei gilydd ar gyfer cydweithio i geisio datrys y problemau hynny, o safbwynt y physical activity agenda.

Well, I think at the moment that we're in a situation where the agreement is for two years with Plaid Cymru, and therefore the figures in the budget haven't changed. But the Minister refers to the fact that we collaborate across other portfolios and that there is more, now, sharing of budgets, in particular on the physical activity agenda, where there's sharing as the health side and us put money together for collaboration to try and solve those problems, in terms of the physical activity agenda.

Just wider on collaboration, and not just collaboration within Government, there are fantastic examples out there—in our partner organisations, arts council, library, national museum—of how they're going beyond boundaries to work in terms of prevention. So, there are loads of different projects that they're doing that are really exemplar in this area, so collaboration goes much broader, I think, than just within the walls of Cathays Park.

Mae Jason wedi cyfeirio at lyfrgelloedd. Rydw i wedi cael cyfle i ymweld â mwy na hanner dwsin a mwy erbyn hyn o lyfrgelloedd newydd a oedd yn cael eu hagor mewn gwahanol lefydd, a'r argraff fwyaf positif rydw i wedi'i chael ydy cymaint o grwpiau cymunedol, drwy oes pobl—hynny ydy, grwpiau o'r lefel cyn-cynradd, ochr y meithrin, drwodd i grwpiau henoed, ac yn arbennig grwpiau iechyd meddwl—sy'n defnyddio'r adeiladau cyhoeddus yma. Roeddwn i yn y llyfrgell yn Ninbych yn ddiweddar, ac yn holi'r gweithiwr perthnasol, a oedd yn gweithio ar y cyd i'r bwrdd iechyd yn y gogledd ac i'r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, ac, wrth gwrs, yn defnyddio'r llyfrgell, a'r neges glir yr oeddwn i'n ei chael oedd bod y llyfrgell yn cael ei hystyried fel lle niwtral, cyfforddus, cynnes, lliwgar a hawdd mynd iddi hi. Hynny yw, nid oes yna ddim cwestiwn o bobl yn edrych ar rywun ac yn meddwl, 'Mae gan y person yma broblem gan ei fod o'n mynd i'r llyfrgell.' Hynny yw, mae o'n le niwtral lle mae pobl yn gallu cwrdd, ac yna mae o yn lle positif iawn, yn fath o hub positif iawn i wneud, yn enwedig, gweithgaredd ataliol ym maes iechyd meddwl, ond hefyd ym maes gofal teuluol a maes yr henoed, ac rydym ni'n annog hynny, wrth gwrs.

Jason has referred to libraries. I've had an opportunity to visit half a dozen or more new libraries that were being opened in various different locations, and the most positive impression I've had is how many community groups, covering a whole range of ages—so, these are groups representing the pre-primary sector, through to groups representing older people and those representing people with mental health issues—are using these public buildings. I was in the library in Denbigh recently, and I was questioning the relevant staff member there, who was working jointly for the health board in north Wales and for social services, and was of course making use of the library, and the clear message I heard there was that the library was seen as a neutral space—a comfortable, warm, colourful space, and a very accessible space. That is, there's no question of people looking at someone and saying, 'Well, this individual has a problem because he or she goes to the library.' It's a neutral space where people can meet, and it's a very positive space, a positive hub, particularly for preventative activities in the areas of mental health, but also in terms of family care and the elderly, and we would encourage that, certainly.

Ocê, diolch yn fawr iawn. Sori—rydym ni jest yn gorfod symud ymlaen, yn anffodus.

Mae jest un cwestiwn olaf gen i ar werthuso'r rhaglen Cyfuno a sut mae hynny wedi dylanwadu ar ddyraniadau yn eich maes chi. Tro diwethaf y gwnaethoch chi ddod i'r sesiwn yma, roeddech chi'n dweud nad oeddech chi wedi cael cyfle i edrych yn fanwl ar y cynllun, ond eich bod yn gyfaill personol i'r Farwnes Andrews, felly a oes yna ddiweddariad o ran sut mae'r rhaglen Cyfuno wedi—?

Okay, thank you very much. Sorry—we have to move on, unfortunately.

Just one final question from me on the evaluation of the Fusion programme and how that has influenced allocations in your area. Last time you came to this session, you said that you hadn't had an opportunity to look in detail at the programme, but that you were a personal friend of Baroness Andrews, so is there an update in terms of how the Fusion programme—?

Oes. Mae yna werthusiadau o'r gwaith peilot sydd wedi digwydd, ond bellach rydym ni'n symud ymlaen i weithgareddau i asesu'r cynllun cyflawn, ac mae yna adroddiadau—mae'r rhain i gyd yn gyhoeddus—y byddech chi wedi gallu eu gweld. Rydw i'n ddiolchgar iawn i'r farwnes. Mae'r Farwnes Andrews yn parhau i'n cynghori ni, yn ei ffordd ddihafal ei hun, ynglŷn â'r modd rydym ni'n gweithredu ar yr adroddiad y gwnaeth hi ei gynnig i ni yn y lle cyntaf.

Mae yna adroddiad llawnach y gallaf i ei anfon i chi, efallai, ar y cynllun Cyfuno, i esbonio yn union sut rydym ni'n gweithredu mewn partneriaeth â'r awdurdodau lleol a sut mae'r cyfleon yma yn datblygu. Mae'r wyth partneriaeth yn gweithredu'n strategol. Yn ein barn ni, mae diwylliant yn cael ei ddefnyddio i hyrwyddo cyflogadwyedd pobl ifanc, ac yn ddiweddar iawn mi ges i'r cyfle i gyfarfod â grŵp o bobl ifanc a oedd ddim mewn gwaith na hyfforddiant sydd yn manteisio ar y cynlluniau yma er mwyn datblygu eu sgiliau. Ac roedd yr adborth o hynny yn fy mherswadio i—pe byddai gen i unrhyw amheuaeth cyn hynny—fod modd defnyddio diwylliant fel arf effeithlon i ddatblygu sgiliau rhyngbersonol, sydd hefyd yn dod yn sgiliau addas ar gyfer bywyd yn gyffredinol, ond yn arbennig ar gyfer y gweithle ac addasrwydd i gyflogaeth.

Yes. There are evaluations of the pilot schemes, but we have now moved on to assess the scheme as a whole, and there are reports—these are all public documents—that you would have been able to view. I'm very grateful to Baroness Andrews, who continues to advise us, in her own inimitable way, in terms of how we take action on the report that she provided to us initially.

There is a more comprehensive report that I could send to you, perhaps, on the Fusion programme, to explain exactly how we are working in partnership with the local authorities and how these opportunities are developing. The eight partnerships are acting strategically. In our view, culture is being used to promote employability among young people, and very recently I had an opportunity to meet a group of young people who were not in employment or education or training who were taking advantage of these initiatives to develop their skills. And the feedback from that persuaded me—had I had any doubts before then—that we can use culture as an effective tool to develop interpersonal skills, which also become appropriate skills for life more generally, but particularly for the workplace and employability.

09:50

Ie. Byddai hynny'n grêt inni edrych arno achos rydym ni'n mynd i wneud darn o waith ar dlodi a'r celfyddydau, felly bydd hynny'n helpu, rwy'n credu, yn hynny o beth hefyd.

That would be great for us to look at because we're going to do a piece of work on the arts and poverty, and I think that that would help us as well.

Ie, ond nid ydym yn defnyddio'r gair 'tlodi' yn y ffordd yna yn ein gwaith ni. Rydym ni'n sôn am ddiwylliant fel allwedd i agor profiadau ehangach i bobl, ac rydym ni'n awyddus i—. Dyna pam ein bod ni wedi defnyddio'r gair 'cyfuno' ac nad ydym yn sôn am drin tlodi, os caf i—

Well, yes, but we don't use the word 'poverty' in that way in our work. We are talking about culture as the key to open out broader experiences for people, and we were eager—. That's why we used the word 'fusion' and don't talk about tackling poverty.

Mae'n ddrwg gen i. Nid fy mod i'n trio cywiro dim byd rydych chi'n ei wneud fel pwyllgor, ond mae'r pethau yma'n bwysig, rydw i'n meddwl. Y ffordd rydych chi'n denu pobl i weithgaredd diwylliannol, nid yw drwy ddweud, 'Rydych chi'n dlawd, felly, beth rydych chi ei angen yw diwylliant.' Nid yw hynny'n gweithio.

Not that I'm trying to correct anything you say, of course, but these things are important. It's how you attract people to cultural activity; not saying, 'Well, you're in poverty, so what you need is culture.' That wouldn't work. 

Wel, mae'n siŵr y byddwn ni'n gofyn ichi ddod mewn i drafod y pethau hynny ar y pryd. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mick Antoniw—cwestiynau gennych chi yn awr. 

Well, I'm sure we'll ask you to come in to discuss those issues at the time. Thank you. Mick Antoniw—questions from you now.

Just a couple of questions on culture and the arts, I think, which I wanted to ask about. This is an area that Welsh Government has spoken about—about upping the game, and about raising the performance of the culture and arts sector, in terms of its own fundraising and so on. I was just wondering what progress you think has been made in terms of those aspirations. 

Well, I wish we had made a bit more progress in the commercialisation of the museum's activities, including the appointment of a commercial development manager. I don't that that has yet happened, and I'm unhappy about this because it was one of my priorities early on. We have, however, had some success with the museums and galleries in that they have strengthened their activity in the commercial sector.

As regards the arts council itself and the collaboration with Arts and Business and other businesses, this, again, is an area that is being strengthened, and it's an emphasis that we always place. Whenever we are discussing public funding, we also always discuss the issue of where the other income streams are, because that's the way that generates a sense of resilience. I use the word 'resilient' because that fits in with the arts council's very effective resilience scheme, which I'm convinced is leading to a greater understanding of the possibility to pursue other sources with outside public funds or out of the direct funding that we give to the arts council. 

Huw, wyt ti eisiau dweud rhywbeth pellach?

Huw, did you have anything further to add?

Yes, certainly. In terms of participation in the arts, that's a key priority that's included in the remit letter to the arts council, but it's fundamental to their work, of course. The statistics we've got in terms of participation—the Wales omnibus survey—show a steady increase in figures, in terms of participation, from 2013 through to the latest figures in 2017. In terms of the bodies funded by the arts council themselves, there's just been a little bit of a dip in terms of the number of events and the number of sessions for participation just in 2017-18. So, there's been a slight dip, but it is a priority that the arts council are targeting continuously in terms of increasing participation.

Clearly, it's very much a work in progress. Looking at the overall budget, there's a been a slight decrease in the current expenditure that's available, but an increase in the capital side. One of the aspirations of Welsh Government has been, of course—. You talked about it within the context of the aspirations we see, for example, within sport. For some reason, culture has always been pushed as though it's not quite within that framework, as though it's something slightly isolated from the broader aspirations. So, the objective of Welsh Government in terms of raising that whole profile is obviously not something that's easy. But, do you think that there are any particular indicators of success in that field that were given to actually appreciate and recognise the importance of the cultural sector?   

What I'm seeking to do is push synergies across all aspects of the portfolio. I mentioned the relationship with tourism, and that's an obvious one, because, clearly, going to increase participation in artistic activity or in relation to traditional heritage areas where the sense of culture—both performance and experience—of the built heritage and the environment all come together in the experience of visitors, whether they are local people going to see events in a local designated space or whether it's visitors—those are interrelated. But in regard to the relationship between sport and culture, what we are emphasising very strongly is that in the area of dance, for example, which is a big priority with us, the physical literacy and physical competence of the people participating in dance clearly improve their mental and physical well-being in all sorts of ways, and we encourage those activities so that people can participate and obtain physical and mental benefit from activities of that kind.

09:55

I think there is so much evidence out there that points to £1 invested in culture as £1 well spent. I think it's a really good question. One of the challenges that's out there is that bodies like the arts council—they put the money that they get to tremendous use, basically, but there is a squeeze out there. Local authorities, we know, are under enormous pressure, and some of the projects that they may co-finance with the arts council—some of that funding is squeezed now because they're focusing on their statutory services, so that's pressure that's there on providers like the arts council that fund other bodies to do it. So, we know the money goes a long way. The more that we have the better use we can put it to.

Can I raise then one aspect of that, which is something that I've raised with your predecessor and your predecessor's predecessor and so on? We have within Wales some world-leading cultural organisations, whether it be the Cory Band, whether it be some of our choirs, whether it be cwmni dawns Cymru, some of the dance groups and so on, musicians and so on, and they perform all over the world. Do you think we actually make enough of the actual success we have—the issue of integrating some of the other things we do in terms of economic work and so on? It seems to me a lot of them go together but maybe in other sectors of Welsh Government it's not appreciated how important the cultural thing is in the promotion of Wales and the Welsh economy, Welsh identity and so on.

Can I come in on this? 

I think it is certainly appreciated. I've been in front of the Enterprise and Business Committee here several times in the past, and it is definitely recognised by this Welsh Government that when we promote ourselves internationally, whether culturally or economically, we do better when we have a cultural element to that, and the way that we work, going forward, is that every single trade mission that this Government will be operating will always consider a strong cultural element to it. That is something that has come as a consequence of reports from other committees of the Assembly here. So, it definitely is recognised. I think in the past maybe the point was right, but I think, going forward, it's very much a focus for us.

Absolutely, sorry. Sorry, Chair, of course. [Laughter.]

Can I say—? I mentioned about capital, and of course capital in respect of the national library and the national museum—there have been underspends there. I was wondering if you could perhaps elaborate a little bit more on the nature of those underspends and how those underspends of capital will actually be used instead. Is it just a deferral pro tem, or have other priorities been identified? How is that being used?

They are being reinvested. Huw, if you want to take that. 

The national library and the national museum certainly have significant capital maintenance work that's required. So, in recognition of that, there were significant budgets given to them in 2017-18, and the national library had £8 million in the year. But it was clear then that they weren't going to spend all of that in-year by the time they'd planned and procured the work. So, for the national library, we did a deal with transport, basically, where the money was re-phased. So, money was given to transport, which they were able to use for their road programmes, and then that money is being repaid back to the library over the period of the next two or three years. So, in the published budget figures, those figures show that the full £8 million comes back to the library over that period of time.

The national museums—we gave them just under £5 million in 2017-18. Again, they weren't able to use it all in the year. What happened with that was that we gave them some of the funding and allowed them to carry it forward in their own books, which we're able to do so that they can carry on with the maintenance work. But another thing we did on the back of the Thurley review, which was talking about us working more closely with the museums on their funding position, et cetera, was give them an invest-to-save loan to invest in income-generating activities. So, that was repayable to the Welsh Government, but because there was capital funding available, we converted some of the capital maintenance grant into a capital grant to replace the loan. That was £660,000 in the last financial year. But then what we'll need to do is put the money back into the maintenance budget. We're looking at that this year in terms of managing the capital budget across tourism, culture and sport, and including Cadw. So, basically, we owe the museums that money, so we'll be looking to find it from underspends elsewhere.

10:00

I'm not sure I quite grasped that. It all sounded very credible but I didn't quite understand. [Laughter.] Rather than going into the detail, perhaps it would be helpful, Chair, if that was put in writing so that we could explore that further. There's obviously a lot of detail there in terms of the strategy. 

There's detail there. 

Can I help you with a specific example? You will have seen what we've done at St Fagans—not in my time, it was started well before I came to post. But, we will be doing the same thing in Llanberis, so the very team and the level of capital resource—it won't be exactly spent in the same way, obviously, but it will be spent on the development of the slate museum so that it becomes the leading museum in north Wales. Indeed, it will be equal to what mining museums have established worldwide. That, obviously, is a commitment that I personally strongly support and I know you will as well.

Thank you for that. Can I ask this other bit then on the development of St Fagans, which has been the gem of investment, hasn't it? It's been one of the major areas of investment. We've been round there, of course, many of us are very familiar with it and very impressed, I think, with how it's been modernised and what it does. But, in terms of the assessment of that, I know it's early days and so on, how are you assessing the value for money from St Fagans and the maximisation, I suppose, of what is not only a major tourist venue but is also a major icon? It's a Welsh folk, social and political history, iconic, living museum, almost. 

I am, of course, a strong supporter of the director general and of the museum staff. I believe we have now a team leading the national museums and galleries across their seven sites—I think it's a serious international player, as you say. We often have discussions—indeed, I had one yesterday with a former Minister of culture from Argentina along with another museum adviser from Latin America, and they'd just been to St Fagans and they admired very much what David Anderson and the team had achieved there. What I'm keen to do is to share that experience internationally even more than we have done already, and then emphasise the historic mission of museums, which is nothing to do with the past; they are to do—. In the case of what has been achieved in St Fagans, it's a redefinition of the sovereignty of the Welsh people in the rebuilding of Llys Llywelyn. That is a very dramatic statement and it's one that the museum—. If you've been to the finished work there, even as mild a nationalist as myself gets moved when I walk into that building, and it has that effect on visitors and on the Welsh people equally. This is what museums are about. They're dramatic scene setters for people to think about their identity and their society in the world context.

Yn fras, os ydych chi'n gallu rhoi mwy o wybodaeth ynglŷn â sut rydych chi'n mynd i asesu'r llwyddiant dros y blynyddoedd i ddod, byddai hynny'n helpu. Nid oes amser gyda ni i fynd mewn iddo fe nawr. Mae fy mriff i'n wahanol i bawb arall, felly mae'n rhaid inni fynd nôl at Aelodau sydd wedi cael eu sgipio drostynt. Mae amser yn weddol dynn, jest ichi fod yn ymwybodol. Dai Lloyd.

Briefly, if you could provide us with more information about how you're going to assess the success over the years to come, that would be of assistance. We don't have time to go into it now. My brief is different to everybody else's, so we now have to go back to Members who we've skipped over. Time is quite tight, just for you to be aware. Dai Lloyd.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Rwy'n credu y gwnaf gyfyngu fy sylwadau yn fyr. Dywedwyd, pan oeddem ni'n craffu ar y gyllideb ddrafft yma'r flwyddyn ddiwethaf, ei bod hi'n bwysig rhannu'r buddsoddiad o'ch adran chi ledled Cymru, nid jest canolbwyntio yng Nghaerdydd. Felly, y cwestiwn cyntaf ydy: i ba raddau y mae'r meddylfryd yna wedi cael ei wireddu yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf ac yn y gyllideb yma? Hefyd, pa effaith mae cynllunio ar gyfer Brexit wedi ei gael ar y dyraniadau yn eich adran chi?

Thank you, Chair. I think I'll restrict my comments, briefly. It was said, when we were scrutinising this draft budget last year, that it was important to share the investment of your department across Wales, and not just concentrate on Cardiff. So, the first question is: to what extent has that thinking been realised in the last year and in this budget? Also, what impact has planning for Brexit had on allocations in your department?

10:05

Thank you. In terms of, I guess, the spread, I think in terms of the sectors that we support, we've got tremendous reach across all of Wales, and not just on the culture side but on the tourism side as well. So, one example would be, through our museums and libraries division, we have a capital transformation fund where we've supported a whole range of projects across all of Wales. So, it’s not just in Cardiff and the conurbation here. Maybe we could give you a note on the spread of those projects. That goes across the whole portfolio, really. You know, we do get that good geographic spread that’s there.

In terms of Brexit preparation, if I could, as well, I think I was in front of your committee as well, Chair, talking about Brexit preparation. The broadest approach that we’ve done has been one about true engagement, to understand what our sector feels and what support they need from us. So, I’d just point you to the evidence that we gave to that committee, a couple of weeks ago I think it was.

Mae hi bach yn anodd imi ddweud dim byd ynglŷn â’r cynlluniau gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd a’i effaith ar ddiwylliant oherwydd nid wyf i’n gwybod beth yw’r cynlluniau. O ran dyfodol i’r sector, yr ymarferwyr celfyddydol unigol llawrydd—ac rwy’n teimlo’n reit gryf ynglŷn â hynny am fod un ohonyn nhw’n perthyn i mi yn eithaf agos—mae peryg i bobl golli cyfleoen i gael bywoliaeth yng ngweddill Ewrop. Mae yna beryg inni golli safon y math o waith perfformio ar lefel Ewropeaidd yn yr holl feysydd celfyddydol yr ydym ni wedi manteisio arno fo drwy’r farchnad sengl. Os ydym ni’n mynd allan o’r farchnad sengl, a bod y farchnad sengl mewn celfyddyd yn cael ei dinistrio, mae hynny’n drychineb ddiwylliannol enfawr. Ac felly, nes ein bod ni’n gwybod, mae’n anodd iawn inni feddwl sut y gallwn ni gynllunio ar ei gyfer o.

Ond, yn sicr, mi fyddaf i'n cynllunio mor effeithlon ag y gallwn i yn yr amgylchiadau, cyn gynted ag y byddwn ni’n glir yn ein meddyliau beth ydym ni’n ei wynebu. So, dim ond un peth sydd yn peri mwy o ofid i mi, sef beth ydym ni’n mynd i wneud â’r holl ŵyn yna yr ydym ni’n eu hallforio i Ewrop, ond mae yr un math o sefyllfa.

It’s a little difficult for me to say anything about Brexit and its impact on culture because I don’t know what the plans for Brexit are. As regards the future for the sector, in terms of individual freelance cultural practitioners—and I feel quite strongly about this because one is a close relation of mine—there is a risk that people will miss out on opportunities to make a living in the rest of Europe. There is a risk that we will lose out on the quality of the performance work at a European level in all of the cultural sectors that we have been able to take advantage of through the single market. If we leave the single market and the single market in the arts is destroyed, then that will be a huge cultural calamity. And therefore, until we know, it’s difficult for us to know how we can plan for it.

But, certainly, I will be planning as effectively as I can in the circumstances, as soon as we are clear in our own minds what we are actually facing. There’s only one thing that causes me more concern, and that is what we’re going to do with all those lambs that we export to Europe, but it’s the same kind of scenario.

Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn. David Melding. 

All right. Thank you very much. David Melding. 

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I wonder if I could just ask what the situation is with the national contemporary art gallery and the football museum. I understand you were expecting interim conclusions from consultants earlier this year. Insofar as I can understand the budget, there’s £5 million capital funding identified for the development of these projects. So, what’s the current thinking?

There is no current thinking there, but there has been a lot of very effective action. We have received both of these reports, and they will be published within the next fortnight. There is a debate scheduled in the National Assembly, and I wasn’t going to take any decisions, as I don’t believe any Minister should on major projects like this, which are of public interest, unless we have a proper debate, and we will have that. I will not be able to respond with the Government’s view during that debate, but I intend to do it as soon as possible after that. So, by the new year, early in the new year, we will be able to begin investing in the preferred options.

Now, I have had long discussions with the consultants, and I’ve benefited very much from their advice, and when you see the full report—and I was very keen that it should be shared not only with colleagues in Plaid Cymru, but also with every Assembly Member equally, when they were available, and, as I say, they will be published soon—. But I can say that the options set out in all the studies very much assist me and, I hope, will assist other people in looking for what I might call what is the appropriate Welsh model for national institutions. This is not the nineteenth century; this is not even the early twentieth century. So, it’s not about putting buildings in Aberystwyth, and Cardiff, and Wrexham, and Bangor, and wherever, of necessity. I think there is a very important principle, which, as someone who has been involved in visual art stuff for many years, is that collections should travel and should not be in stacks in public buildings not seen. So, I think that when these issues come for public debate, I hope we’ll get a really good response.

I completely agree with you. I think we should see the reports; that’s very helpful. And it’s important that we have a proper debate in committee and in the Assembly, because these are major developments. But there was a very well-informed piece on the BBC, it seemed, that you'd turned away from the idea of one centre—possibly Port Talbot, I think, was mentioned as the sort of Bilbao-type gallery or whatever—to a dispersed model, which you've now talked about. So, I think it's fair for me to ask you, 'Is thinking changing?' And I can see a logic in a dispersed model. I think that could well be something that I would prefer because, in terms of Fusion and participation, all these things have to be carefully thought about. And I have to say—I'm new to this brief, but obviously I've got around the sector—everyone's talking about the fact that you've shifted to a dispersed model. So, have you got anything more to tell us?

10:10

Well, yes, I will tell you the moment of my conversion. It happened in Oriel Gregynog in Aberystwyth. I obviously had been going there for years. I didn't realise there was a proper gallery in the national library and, indeed lots of gallery space and lots of artworks. I knew that they were in the stack and some of them were on display. But when I opened the big Kyffin Williams centenary exhibition in Oriel Gregynog, they explained to me that they had in fact cleared more space in the gallery from being used for storage for this exhibition to take place. So, I thought to myself after that visit, 'Good heavens, gallery spaces are not for storage', but if you look at the history, of course, the endowment was from the Davieses for it. So, I want to see Oriel Gregynog in Aberystwyth being restored to a full part of the national galleries and libraries of Wales. And the same thing has already happened in Cardiff, as we know. But I also want to see how it is possible to use other spaces and to have a better partnership with those wonderful regional galleries. I've been involved in Oriel Mostyn for many years. So, that's my general mode of thinking.

And we'll be discussing this, obviously. And, you know, I think that's a strong model. I'm not uncomfortable with that—

But I won't take any decision on this until there's been a full debate.

I understand. When you speak to people in the sector and journalists and, indeed, those of us who take an interest in this, trying to improve our performance in terms of contemporary art has been really important, because, obviously, there have been a number of initiatives that have not quite worked as we would have liked during the life of devolution. So, I think that initiative is very, very welcome. I've heard less enthusiasm for the football museum in Wrexham, and I just wondered whether that is still actively an option.

Well, Wrexham is definitely a very important museum location, including for sport, because Wrexham is historically a very important centre for the development of football and continues to be so. In line with our developing idea about spreading the collection throughout Wales, it would make sense not only to have—there is a significant collection in Wrexham already—possibly better accommodation for that collection in Wrexham, but also I would love to see—and this is something that I haven't yet discussed fully with the national museums and galleries—whether there could be current play spaces, even pitches, that were used for substantial games at the Welsh league level, let's say, the Welsh premiership level, which were related to the museum estates. It would be a wonderful idea if people were to arrive in Newtown and play a game of football but also, next door, they could go and know about the whole history of football as it's developed in Newtown and other parts of Wales.

Okay. I've got to move on. I'm relieved that Wrexham is still under serious consideration, because I think it's the great centre, really, of north Wales in terms of its urban population, and that part of Wales is really, really important and a gateway, so a great museum there would be—

I haven't been in discussion with Wrexham or with the city council, but nothing will happen—. I mean, there are clear models—like the Storiel one in Bangor between the university and the museum, the local museum and the national museum—. There are all sorts of options that we could pursue.

I'll deal with the next two questions quickly because I fear that I've stretched your patience a little bit there. In terms of the revenue allocations in the sector—culture and arts generally—we see a 2 per cent overall decline in revenue, in cash terms, but that's all coming from the national museum, it seems to be, where they will receive a reduction of 5 per cent. Is this because you want them to respond very vigorously to the Thurley review and up their commercial performance? What's the logic in basically putting all the cuts into one institution?

10:15

They are not cuts. I think Huw will give you the financial data on this, but the way the budget is presented has led people to think that, but that is certainly not the case.

It's to do with the presentation of the budget. The core revenue budget for the national museums is flat, and the same as for all the other organisations, and, indeed, under the terms of the agreement with Plaid Cymru. But it's back to this invest-to-save issue, where, with certain bodies, we give loans at different periods in time, and they are required to repay £1 million, broadly, of a loan to us the next financial year. So, the core revenue budget is flat and, less the loan repayments, it gives the figure that is published, which is a lower figure.

Can I just add to that that the national museum themselves certainly do not see it as a cut and, when the BBC ran an article on it, I think it's safe to say that the museum were mortified with the way that article was presented, but the BBC still ran with it anyway? It is not a cut.

Yes. I'm not a big fan of BBC coverage of many things, and that includes the coverage of our own performance.

Yes, well, I'm sure we need some financial analysis of the budget because a certain clarity is required, I think, for effective scrutiny. So, it's not a response, then, to driving greater commercial expertise? Okay.

And then, on the strategic partnership between the key bodies—Cadw, the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales, the national library and the museum—has that yet affected budget allocations, like, presumably, looking at some back-office functions that can be done commonly, skills-development strategies and commercial activity in general? How's that actively shaping the budget, or is it still too early?

Well, it's a little early, but, looking to the future, it is no secret that the present location of Cadw is not, perhaps, the preferred location for Cadw or for any of us. And I do believe very firmly that I would like to see both great historic bodies in Wales—the royal commission, which I admire dearly and have always supported, and continue to do so, although it has a very different function developed from that of Cadw—and Cadw properly housed in a historic environment that is appropriate. But I can't really say much more about that at the moment because we haven't yet discovered a preferred site. Also, I think my preferred location would be somewhere that would celebrate our industrial heritage. But, as regards a collaboration between the historic environment bodies, this is very strong. They have been meeting regularly to discuss how they can work together, and the relationship is very powerful between Cadw and the royal commission as we speak.

Ocê. Mae'n rhaid—. Sori.

Okay. We have to—. Sorry.

Only briefly, Chair. On the partnership itself—it's important to remember it's a partnership—in terms of budget setting, we are four different bodies who sit together and come together as that partnership. There are four work streams within it and, of those four work streams, the one that's made the most progress in the last 12 months, I would say, is the skills work stream. There's an acknowledgement that, as the four institutions, there's a very clear way of working on that, and there's some work that's been done very recently and the Minister is likely to say something on that in the next couple of months. The other three work streams are not at the same pace, but, as I've said to you, I think, Chair, in the past, this is a partnership for life, not just for Christmas, and there are things taking a bit more time.

We'll track the progress. We have to move on, I'm afraid. Caroline Jones.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Support for the historic environment is mainly funded through Cadw, so I'd like to ask that if Cadw did not meet its 2018-19 income generation target, how that would impact upon the level of support given.

Thanks, Minister. I think we managed Cadw responsibly. As we predict this year, particularly because of the really hot summer—we pray for rain in Cadw; a grey day is good for Cadw monuments, and the hot summer didn't really help—we do believe that we're going to come short of the very ambitious income target for this year. But we manage that as we manage a business, really—we're able to flex the spend to still come in on budget. So, I'm confident, and Huw, as I say—we're confident that we'll bring that in on budget so there won't be any consequences rippling out any further; we'll be able to manage it ourselves.

10:20

It is an important point. [Inaudible.]—the income down, but, actually, we've been pretty prudent in terms of salaries and staff appointed, so we can manage it that way.

You can manage it that way. Okay. Thank you. In 2017, a Cadw official told the committee that Cadw had restricted the provision of grants to owners of listed buildings and scheduled monuments and used the money for capital improvement to raise Cadw's revenue. So, therefore, an increase in Cadw's capital budget of £3.8 million and further increases planned for 2021—I'd like to ask how this current increase, along with the forecasted increases, affects grant provision for owners of historic assets whilst, obviously, at the same time, raising revenue for Cadw?

I was that official, and that was very true. We took the decision—it would've been 2015-16—to scale back the grants, as was then, and we stopped them in the financial year, I believe, 2016-17, purely to prioritise focus on the capital investment of the Cadw estate itself, and I think that decision has borne dividend. We've seen that in the growth of the income over the years.

What we've been able to do as a consequence of that good performance, and, as a consequence of the really good capital settlement that we've had within Government to invest further in Cadw—the Minister's been able to relaunch the grant programme for owners of listed buildings and scheduled monuments, so we've been able to get that back out there now. So, that's very much part of the budget discussions going into next year—how we allocate that split between capital investment and grants. We haven't made the decision yet, but that's in train.

I'm certainly in favour. As someone who benefited a little in the past, when I used to live in a more historic building than I do now, I'm very keen to encourage the partnership between owners of historic sites. It is a difficult situation people are in; people still think that, if they live in a listed building, they can get some financial support. So, we need to be able to make it clear to people we do have an opportunity for co-investing with people in properties.

If I could, just very briefly, one more point on that, which is, I think, close to the Minister's heart, and the Cabinet Secretary for economy and infrastructure's heart, which is that we don't just go back to the old traditional way of handing out grants for these buildings. We're really interested in prioritising those owners who come to us with innovative models. So, if they can crowdsource their projects, we will give them higher priority than those who just come in for a clean grant, as I would call it. So, we're trying to be more innovative in the way people view the management of their properties.

Okay. Thank you. So, your paper notes that a further increase in admission prices is planned to the monuments for next year. We note that Cadw has increased visitor numbers by concentrating on and broadening the audience for family participation. So, therefore, do you think that this increase may have a negative impact on low-income families in times of austerity?

I believe no. I think we've got a vast range of different ways in which we can attract audiences on low incomes. We've got a number of different products that they can avail themselves of to be able to come and visit the Cadw properties. We can probably give you a note on the different ranges of passes and things that we've got there.

But the broader point about admissions price rises—this is very much in line with the commercial strategy for Cadw: small incremental rises every year. We've categorised the monuments in different tiers in terms of visitor numbers. I still strongly believe, and there's evidence that shows it, that those of our category A monuments in terms of numbers, like  Caernarfon, like Conwy, are still significantly underpriced versus comparable products, for want of a better word, over the border. We're trying to be sensitive in the way that we roll that out here, but I think I've given evidence to you before—you know, I think Dover castle, £20 entry; Caernarfon, we are less than 50 per cent of that, and I would say the product's better.

And there's no comparison between the quality of the buildings, is there, for historic significance. [Laughter.]

So, you're looking at the environment as well and these low-income families.

Yes. Absolutely.

Okay. Thank you. Last last question. Cadw's been successful in raising its income over a period of time, so it's a success story. So, how can you roll that out, that positive experience out, to benefit other national institutions?  

10:25

I'm trying to think which national institutions you might have in mind. Cadw is quite a unique institution, because we're talking about an estate of very sensitive but very dramatic historic properties. What I do want to see is how we can better provide for interpretation of our industrial heritage, and I would like to see some more resource going in that direction. I am a huge fan, as some people here know, of the Newport transporter bridge. I think our traditional mining industries could benefit from much more interpretation, as could a lot of our agricultural estates, apart from the National Trust estates. If these were better interpreted, people would know more about the fragility of the countryside and the importance of the activity that goes on there. And these are all priorities, so, when we're talking about investing in Cadw and in those properties, I think the lessons are rather different, but the—. Sorry, the conclusions are rather different, but the lessons are the same—that all heritage, whatever it is, whether it's environment or built heritage or cultural heritage or whatever, benefits from better interpretation, and that is a priority, I think, for us all. 

On that point, do you think further investment in the actual link, for example, between mining and the educational links—? Nearly every scientific advance made in advances in physics and engineering occurred as a result of the mining industry, yet that link between those—we see that, for example, in the Hetty in my constituency—we haven't quite grasped the link between those yet, have we? 

Well, as you know, the most important educational experience I've had is being re-educated in that very point, about how our industrial heritage has generated innovation. And the message is that innovation can be generated again, and is being generated again. One of my pet schemes, which I may or may not be able to pursue one day, is the museum of the nuclear industry in Wales, which is an amazing history, and I think we need—there's a link there with technology. So, these things don't stop—not just the nuclear industry, but hydroelectric and all the energy generation industry, because that's a huge part of what we do, especially in north-west Wales.  So, yes, we need to look for opportunities where we make a stronger link, and we look to the new national curriculum here as well, so that people can go to the areas in their localities where these things have happened, and where the interpretation is good, and when people, young people especially, get the experience of being there, they will see this is where this idea came from, and belongs to us as well. That's the kind of message we have in mind.  

Very briefly, I think that the Cadw lesson that I would just say is—you know, where organisations, public sector, invest in the commercial side of promoting their assets, be it heritage assets or tourism assets, if they're bold and do take risks, it can have significant dividends for them. I think there is still, I believe, a nervousness out there in some of the other parts of the public sector, and they just see the money going out; they don't think of what could come in and take that risk. I think it's going to be a generation to really change it, but I really believe that.  

Okay. We've got some questions from Jenny now, quickly. 

Just sticking with Cadw for a minute, how much of the budget allocated to Cadw has been given towards the listed building on the Pinewood site, because it was £300,000 allocated when the Wales Audit Office wrote its report? How much is it now?  

It doesn't work like that. So, that wouldn't—. Cadw don't allocate money to that. It's not part of the Cadw portfolio. That's wider—

It's in the wider economy budget; it's not in the culture portfolio. 

I've never been asked to approve a specific spend related to climate change for the Cadw estate.

10:30

It's for Pinewood.

No, no. This is for Pinewood. The grade I listed building, the farmhouse on the Pinewood site.

Oh, the farmhouse. Nothing to do with me, I wasn't there at the time. I haven't been asked to—

It's in the wider sector—

It's in the wider sectors and business budget for the economy group. It's held within that sector.

Could you just tell us how the Welsh Books Council promotes the literary skills of Wales?

I meet with the books council four times a year and I meet with Literature Wales as well, and now they meet together regularly and plan programmes together. I've encouraged collaboration and this will continue.

Well, the outcome, I would hope, is to improve the quality of writing, and, indeed, through the books council, to increase the readership and the distribution of books, but also to increase, through other activities, particularly within the educational context, an awareness of that form of literature and its link with other literary forms, in particular the link between writing and film making, programme making, the whole broadcast sector, the whole video games industry. These are all linked together as creativity, and what I would want to see promoted is the interest of young people, particularly, in pursuing creativity for themselves, and also experiencing it.

So, do you set them targets in exchange for the budget you allocate to them?

So, how do you know whether they're achieving value for money?

Well, those discussions take place through my regular meetings with the chairs and chief executives of these organisations, and the analysis of the spend of these bodies—and this applies also to the arts council—by officials who work with me. So, outcomes are not measured through targets; we do not have targets in our activity.

So, how do we know whether they're making good use of the money?

Well, these are on the periodic evaluations of these bodies, which are within our management structures.

Okay, but they're not something that Assembly Members can get hold of. 

There isn't a current evaluation of the Welsh Books Council, but there was fairly recently.

I'll need to check specifically on the books council, because that's only just come over to my bit of the Welsh Government, but, on the other arm's-length bodies and organisations, remit letters and frameworks are all publicly available and anyone can see those.

Okay, thank you very much. 'Light Springs through the Dark'—nearly two years old—it highlights the fact that the printed media in this country is quite weak, and, obviously, that has an impact on a citizen's understanding of the political landscape. I just wondered how your budget is able to do anything about that, or whether you're focusing much more on the creative side.

No, I'm completely creative. That's not part of my budget.

Okay. One hundred thousand pounds was allocated for this current year and the next financial year for start-up grants for journalists seeking to set up their own business in the hyperlocal sector. That is part of your budget, isn't it?

Right, okay. I was under the understanding that it was in your portfolio from a conversation that I had with the Cabinet Secretary. So, it's not in your portfolio.

Well, I haven't allocated any funding for journalism, and I wouldn't as a matter of principle.

That was part of the Plaid Cymru-Welsh Government deal—£100,000 one year and another £100,000 in the second year.

Yes, but that was negotiated between the Cabinet Secretary and Plaid Cymru, and it's not—

But who do we go to for progress on what's happening with it, then?

Could I come in on that one?

I get that this one's a bit confusing. Creative Wales is in the Minister's portfolio; the creative industries is in the Cabinet Secretary's portfolio. What we need to do is provide you a note just specifically on that, because I appreciate that the vagaries within the civil service and the departments is quite confusing for everybody. So, we will clarify that for you in a note.

10:35

You’re not in a position, then, to answer, to clarify this.

On the actual £100,000 for that fund, there is a report being prepared at the moment for officials that hasn’t gone to the Cabinet Secretary yet. So, as soon as that’s gone through there, then he will make a decision on where we go with all of that. We're not at a point to say anything publicly on it yet, but I can set that out for you in a note.

Okay. So, none of the money has been allocated for this current financial year yet.

No, there’s £100,000 that’s been allocated to that fund. The reason it’s complex is that it’s in a different bit of the portfolio. So, there has been £100,000.

I think maybe it’s allocated on a budget line, but I don’t think it’s being used or—

Not spent. That's what I'm trying to find out. It's not being spent. 

Yes, that's right. But it’s certainly not within this portfolio, because, out of the Plaid Cymru agreement, we had the additional funding for the bodies and feasibility studies, but this didn’t come into the Minister’s portfolio.

Okay. Well, perhaps you could write to us with some clarification on that.

Overall, Minister, in terms of strengthening the media and its contribution to the 'Prosperity for All', what is your top priority?

My top priority, as always, has been the encouragement of creative industry employment in the clusters that we have in Wales. I have visited a large number of post-production houses, and of course have regular discussions with media organisations, and indeed have also visited media training and other facilities. The direct support for training is linked with the role of other Ministers. But the important message that I try to present at all times is how creative our industries are currently in Wales, both in the commercial side of their activity and also in the innovation of their creativity. That is, in making content and in producing formatted content of various kinds. And that there is, in fact, a carryover from creativity of different kinds in both aspects of the media industry, which is also relevant to artistic activity. This is where I am a little impatient that I haven’t been able to do what I hoped to have done in implementing the idea of Creative Wales and embedding it in Government. So, I'm determined that, by the time I meet you next, that will have happened.

Great. I’m afraid we’re going to have to bring this session to an end.

Rydym ni wedi mynd dros amser. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod i mewn. Rydym ni wedi gofyn am nodiadau ar bynciau gwahanol, os medrwch chi gysylltu â ni. Diolch yn fawr iawn am ddod i mewn.  

We have gone over time. Thank you very much to you for coming in. We have asked for notes on different areas, so if you could get in touch with us. Thank you very much for attending.

A short break, yes? Two minutes. 

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:38 a 10:45.

The meeting adjourned between 10:38 and 10:45.

10:45
3. Cefnogi a hybu'r Gymraeg: Ymchwiliad i'r cyd-destun deddfwriaethol a pholisi ac yn ehangach: Sesiwn dystiolaeth 5
3. Supporting and promoting the Welsh language: An inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 5

Croeso i eitem 3 ar yr agenda—cefnogi a hybu'r Gymraeg: ymchwiliad i'r cyd-destun deddfwriaethol a pholisi ac yn ehangach: sesiwn dystiolaeth 5. A chroeso i Llinos Roberts, sef pennaeth cyfathrebu corfforaethol, y Gymraeg a rhyngwladol, Coleg Cambria, yn cynrychioli ColegauCymru; yr Athro R. Gwynedd Parry, athro'r gyfraith a hanes cyfreithiol, cyfarwyddwr dysgu ac addysgu, Coleg y Gyfraith, Prifysgol Abertawe—teitl hir iawn; a hefyd Lois Roberts, swyddog y Gymraeg, Coleg y Cymoedd. Diolch i chi am ddod atom heddiw. Fel arfer, rydym yn gofyn cwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol, felly os yw'n iawn gyda chi, awn ni'n syth mewn i gwestiynau. 

Mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gen i ar eich sylwadau chi ynghylch sut mae'r Mesur wedi datblygu ers Deddf 1993—pa wahaniaethau cadarnhaol neu negyddol ydych chi wedi gweld ers y cyfnod hynny?  

Welcome to item 3 on the agenda—supporting and promoting the Welsh language: an inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: evidence session 5. And welcome to Llinos Roberts, head of corporate communications, Welsh language and international, Coleg Cambria, representing ColegauCymru; Professor R. Gwynedd Parry, professor of law and legal history, director of learning and teaching, College of Law, Swansea University—a long title; and Lois Roberts, Welsh language officer, Coleg y Cymoedd. Thank you for attending today. As usual, we ask questions on the basis of different themes, so if it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions. 

The first question from me is on your comments on how the Measure has developed since the 1993 Act—what positive or negative differences have you seen since that period? 

Rydw i'n meddwl, o ran y Mesur a'r safonau, o ran ColegauCymru yr wyf yn ei gynrychioli yma heddiw, maen nhw wedi bod yn ddarostyngedig i'r safonau ers bron i ddwy flynedd erbyn hyn, ond fel colegau unigol nid ydym ond yn ddarostyngedig ers rhyw chwe mis, ac rydw i'n meddwl bod hynny yr un fath ar gyfer y prifysgolion hefyd. Felly, o ran hynny, mae'n anodd ar y funud gweld beth ydy effaith y safonau arnom ni, achos cwta chwe mis rydym ni wedi bod yn ddarostyngedig iddyn nhw. 

Rydw i'n meddwl mai'r effaith fwyaf—ac, yn amlwg, roedd gennym ni gyfnod hir yn arwain at fis Ebrill eleni; roedd yn rhywbeth fel 18 mis o fynd yn ôl ac ymlaen efo'r safonau—ond rydw i'n meddwl mai'r effaith fwyaf mewn gwirionedd ydy'r effaith mae hyn wedi ei gael ar gynllunio y gweithlu o fewn ein sefydliadau ni. Fel rhan o'r cynlluniau iaith blaenorol, roeddem ni fel coleg yng Ngholeg Cambria—dyna'r coleg rydw i'n gweithio ynddo fo—yn gwneud llawer iawn o gynllunio'r gweithlu, ac roedd gennym ni strategaeth sgiliau ieithyddol, ond nid oedd hynny yn digwydd ymhob coleg. Beth mae'r safonau a'r Mesur wedi eu golygu ydy bod rhaid i ni gael cysondeb, a bod pob coleg, wedyn, yn gorfod gwneud yr un peth, a phob prifysgol yn gorfod cynllunio yn yr un modd. Felly, mae wedi dod a chysondeb mawr, rydw i'n meddwl, i ni fel sefydliadau. 

I think that in terms of the Measure and standards, from the point of view of ColegauCymru who I'm representing today, they have been subject to standards for almost two years now, but as individual colleges we've only been subject to them for around six months, and I think that's the case for universities too. So, in those terms, it's difficult at the moment to see the impact of those standards on us, because we've only been subject to them for a brief period of six months.

I think the major impact—and, clearly, we had a long lead-in period leading up to April of this year; it was back and forth with standards for something like 18 months—but I think the biggest impact is the impact that it's had on workforce planning within our institutions. As part of the previous language schemes, we as Coleg Cambria—the college at which I work—were doing a great deal of workforce planning, and we had a language skills strategy, but that didn't happen in every college. What the standards and the Measure have meant is that there is now consistency, and that every college, then, has to do the same, and every university has to plan in the same way. So, it's brought great consistency, I think, to us as institutions.   

Professor R. Gwynedd Parry 10:47:57

Rydw i'n cytuno efo chi'n llwyr. Fel roeddech chi'n sôn, mae'n gynnar i werthuso yr holl beth ar hyn o bryd, oherwydd mae'r peth yn—. Mae'n gynnar, felly, o ran hynny. Ond yr hyn rydw i'n ei deimlo, ac argraff ydy hyn—ni allaf ei roi yn fwy nag fel tystiolaeth argraffiadol—mae yna fwy a mwy o bobl yn ymwybodol o ddyletswyddau sefydliadol tuag at yr iaith Gymraeg nag oedd o'r blaen. Byddai'n deg i ddweud bod y cynllun iaith, beth bynnag oedd hwnnw—mi oedd hwnnw yn cuddio mewn rhyw ddrôr yn rhywle—nid oedd neb, a dweud y gwir, yn gwybod llawer o ddim bod amdano fo. Mae yna lawer yn fwy o staff rŵan yn y brifysgol—pan fyddaf i'n mynd o gwmpas yn siarad efo staff di-Gymraeg, er enghraifft—sydd yn ymwybodol bod yna ddyletswyddau cyfreithiol, lled-gyfreithiol, tuag at y Gymraeg, a'u bod nhw'n bethau mae'n rhaid eu cymryd o ddifrif. Felly, mae'r naws yn newid o safbwynt agweddau tuag at y Gymraeg. 

Mae agweddau tuag at y Gymraeg yn dod yn fwy proffesiynol, fe fuaswn i'n ddweud, oherwydd y safonau. Felly, rydw i'n credu bod yna le inni fod yn obeithiol fod y safonau, fel dyfais, fel arf—mae ganddyn nhw'r potensial i wneud daioni ac i ddylanwadu ar arferion sefydliadol, oherwydd safonau sy'n creu disgwyliadau ar sefydliadau ydyn nhw, nid ar unigolion. Felly, mae'n rhaid i'r sefydliad ymateb, ac mae hynny'n bwysig iawn, iawn, ac mae pobl yn deall hynny.  

I agree with you completely. As you mentioned, it's early to evaluate the whole area at the moment, because it's early. But what I feel, and this is an impression—I can't say that it's more than an impression as evidence—is that more and more people are aware of duties by institutions towards the Welsh language than there were before. It would be fair to say that the language scheme, whatever that was—it was hiding in a drawer somewhere—nobody really knew much about it. More staff now in the university—when I go around to speak to staff who are non-Welsh-speaking—are aware that there are legal duties, part-legal, towards the Welsh language, and that they're things that they have to take seriously. So, the mood is changing in terms of attitudes towards the Welsh language.

Attitudes towards the Welsh language are becoming more professional, I would say, because of the standards. Therefore, I think there is room for us to be hopeful that the standards, as a device, as a tool, have the potential to make good and influence the practices of the institutions, because they are standards that create expectations on institutions, not on individuals. So, an institution has to respond, and that is very, very important, and people understand that. 

Fe fuaswn i'n cytuno efo popeth sydd wedi cael ei ddweud. Yn sicr, mae wedi dod â'r Gymraeg i flaen yr agenda i ni fel coleg. Mae'n rhywbeth mae pob aelod o staff nawr yn gorfod ei gymryd o ddifrif, ac mae hynny'n bwysig, rydw i'n meddwl. Ond y profiad rydw i wedi'i gael o adborth gan staff yw nid wyf yn siŵr faint o ymgynghori sydd wedi cael ei wneud gyda'r sector addysg bellach cyn llunio'r safonau yma. Mewn lot o enghreifftiau, nid ydyn nhw really yn gweddu i golegau addysg bellach. Efallai eu bod nhw fwy yn ymwneud â gwaith prifysgolion ac addysg uwch, ac rydw i'n credu ein bod ni'n trio dehongli y rheini a'u gosod nhw ar ein sefydliad ni pan nad ydyn nhw really yn addas mewn llawer o ffyrdd. Er enghraifft, pethau fel tiwtor personol—nid ydym ni fel coleg yn rhoi tiwtor personol, ond mae'n rhaid inni fynnu bod rhywun, os ydyn nhw eisiau tiwtor personol yn Gymraeg, yn gallu cael un yn Gymraeg. Nid ydyn nhw really yn gweddu ar ein cyfer ni, felly mae'n anodd gweithredu hynny. Buaswn i'n dweud bod hynny'n bwysig i'w nodi. 

I would agree with everything that's been said. Certainly, it's put the Welsh language at the top of the agenda for us as a college. It is something that every member of staff has to take seriously, and I think that's important. But the experience that I've had from the feedback of staff is that I'm not quite sure how much consultation there's been with the further education sector before the standards were drawn up. In a number of examples, they aren't truly appropriate to an FE college. Perhaps they are more geared towards the work of higher education and universities, and I think that we are trying to interpret those and implement them in our institution when they aren't necessarily appropriate in many ways. For example, things such as personal tutors—as a college, we don't provide a personal tutor, but we now have to insist that if somebody wants a Welsh-speaking personal tutor, they're able to have one. That's not really appropriate for us, so it's difficult to implement that. I would say that that's an important thing to note.

10:50

Ocê. Fe wnawn ni barhau gyda'r cwestiynau hynny, efallai, gyda Dai Lloyd. Mae cwestiynau pellach ar hyn.

Okay. We'll continue with the questions on that now with Dai Lloyd. There are further questions on this.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Diolch yn fawr am eich presenoldeb a hefyd am y dystiolaeth ysgrifenedig rydym ni wedi'i derbyn ymlaen llaw. Nawr, yn dal i fynd ar ôl Mesur 2011, ac rydw i'n derbyn, wrth gwrs, ei bod hi'n ddyddiau cynnar—chwe mis o weithredu ac ati, ac ati—rydych chi wedi sôn yn gadarnhaol yn fanna am agweddau positif o'r Mesur yma—codi proffil yr iaith, er enghraifft, ac ymwybyddiaeth ymysg eich colegau. Y cwestiwn cyntaf ydy: a oes yna unrhyw agweddau cadarnhaol eraill y gallwch chi feddwl amdanyn nhw, er bod yr amser y mae'r Mesur yma wedi bod yn weithredol wedi bod yn brin? Ond hefyd, a oes yna agweddau llai cadarnhaol, efallai, o'r Mesur 2011 yma rydych chi wedi'u darganfod ar eich llwybrau? 

Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you very much for attending today and for the written evidence that we've received beforehand. Now, to continue along the lines of the 2011 Measure, and I understand that it's early days—I accept that it's only been six months and so on—you've mentioned there the positive characteristics of the Measure—for example, raising the profile of the language and awareness amongst your colleges. First of all, are there any other positive characteristics that you can think of, even though the time that this Measure has been in force has been short? But also, are there any less positive characteristics of this 2011 Measure that you have seen on your way?

Rydw i'n meddwl mai un o'r problemau rydym ni wedi eu cael mewn colegau addysg bellach, yn bennaf, ydy cymhlethdod yr holl broses, a phroses y mae hi wedi bod, rydw i'n meddwl, onid e? Proses hir a llafurus weithiau. Rydw i'n meddwl bod llawer iawn o'r safonau yn gymhleth, yn anodd eu dehongli, ac er ein bod ni wedi cael sesiynau cefnogaeth gan y comisiynydd, yn aml roedd y sesiynau yn dweud, 'Wel, dyma beth ydy'r safonau a dyma beth ydy rheoleiddio', yn hytrach na beth y byddem ni, efallai, wedi gallu gwneud efo fo, yn ymarferol, sef, 'Dyma enghraifft o arfer da a dyma sut y gallwch chi fynd o'i chwmpas hi.' Rydw i'n meddwl mai dyna'r peth mwyaf negyddol. Nid wyf yn gwybod os wyt ti'n teimlo hynny hefyd, Lois. 

I think one of the problems that we've had in FE colleges, mainly, is the complexity of the whole process, and it has been a process, I think—a long, drawn-out, laborious process at times. I think that many of the standards are complex, difficult to interpret, and although we've had support sessions provided to us by the commissioner, often they would say, 'Well, these are the standards and these are the regulations', rather than what we, perhaps, needed, practically, which is, 'This is an example of good practice and this is how you can go about things in implementing the standards.' I think that's the biggest negative. I don't know if you'd agree, Lois.

Yn sicr. Rydw i'n teimlo, yn aml iawn, nad yw'r safonau yn mynd ar ôl yr hyn sy'n cael gwir effaith ar y cyhoedd ac ar ein dysgwyr ni. Yn aml, maen nhw'n mynd i'r afael â phethau, efallai, mwy ymylol, sydd ddim yn effeithio ar eu profiadau nhw, yn hytrach na phethau y byddai wir yn gwneud iddyn nhw ystyried defnyddio'r iaith a'u hannog nhw i ddefnyddio'r iaith yn eu bywydau. 

Certainly. I feel that, quite often, the standards don't go after what has a real impact on the public and on our learners. Quite often, they address issues that are more on the periphery, perhaps, which don't have an impact on their experiences, rather than things that would really get them to consider using the language and encourage them to use the language in their day-to-day lives.

A gaf i jest ddweud, rydw i'n teimlo—? Roedd yna ymgyrch, 'Mae gen i hawl', yr ymgyrch ddiweddar, ac rydw i'n teimlo bod honno wedi cael effaith gadarnhaol ar ein myfyrwyr ni, achos roedd yna fideo, roedd yna bob math o gynhyrchion roeddem ni'n gallu eu rhoi allan i'r myfyrwyr, ac roedd hynny'n hybu ac yn hyrwyddo. Ac o ganlyniad i hynny, roeddem ni'n gallu gyrru'r fideo allan i bob myfyriwr sy'n siarad Cymraeg a dweud, 'Dyma'ch hawliau chi. Dyma beth rydych chi'n gallu—' a 'Cysylltwch efo ni', ac rydym ni wedi cael ymateb da iawn o hynny. Ond beth ydym ni ei angen fel colegau, rydw i'n meddwl, ydy mwy o hynny—mwy o hybu, mwy o hyrwyddo. 

May I just say, I feel that—? There was a campaign, 'My language rights', a recent campaign, and I think that that has had a positive impact on our students, because there was a video, there were all sorts of material that we could distribute to students, and that promoted the issues. As a result of that, we were able to send the video out to every Welsh-speaking student and say, 'Well, these are your rights. These are the things that you can—' and 'Get in touch with us', and we've had a very positive response to that. But what we need as colleges, I think, is more of that—more promotion.

A sut rydym ni'n helpu ein staff ni i ddehongli cymhlethdod y safonau, achos maen nhw'n gymhleth iawn. Mae yna lot o bethau sydd yn dod o dan gylch gwaith y safonau, ond mae yna lot o bethau sydd y tu allan i hynny. Sut ydym ni'n cyfleu'r neges honno i'n staff ni, heb sôn am i'r cyhoedd ac i'r myfyrwyr? Mae'n gymhleth iawn, ac mae'n anodd ei gyfleu. 

And how we help our staff to interpret the complexity of the standards, because they are very complex. There are many things that do come under the remit of the standards, but there are a lot that are outside that. How do we convey that message to our staff, let alone the public and our students? It's very complex, and it's difficult to convey.

Professor R. Gwynedd Parry 10:53:34

Wel, rydw i'n cytuno bod yna le i wella o ran drafftio rhai o'r safonau, ac nid wyf yn rhy siŵr beth ydy amcanion ambell i safon, a, gwaetha'r modd, nid oedd y nodiadau esboniadol yn egluro pob un y byddem ni wedi gobeithio a fyddai wedi cael rhyw fath o esboniad.

Ond y broblem sydd gen i, rydw i'n meddwl, ydy nad ydy'r safonau—. Yr ofn rydw i'n ei weld ydy bod y safonau yn canolbwyntio'n aml iawn yn ormodol ar bethau gweinyddol pwysig, ond nid ydyn nhw i wneud â busnes craidd y sefydliad, oherwydd, wrth gwrs, beth rydym ni'n trio ei wneud yma ydy—. Wel, mae'r Llywodraeth eisiau cynyddu'r nifer o siaradwyr yn sylweddol; maen nhw'n sôn am newid diwylliant ieithyddol dro ar ôl tro er mwyn cyflawni'r nod. Cymrwch chi brifysgolion, er enghraifft—busnes prifysgol, wedi'r cwbl, ydy addysg, a'r hyn sydd yn effeithio ar brofiad myfyriwr ydy safon yr addysg mae o'n ei gael. Wel, wrth gwrs, yn y sector addysg uwch, rydym ni'n ffodus yn yr ystyr bod gennym ni gorff sydd yn hyrwyddo ac yn datblygu, sef y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. Felly, mae'r elfen honno eisoes yn un ddatblygedig. I mi, buaswn i'n hoffi gweld gwell cysylltiad rhwng y safonau a'r gwaith pwysig, creiddiol yna sydd yn mynd i newid arferion a diwylliant sefydliad. Dyna yw fy nadl i yn fy mhapur i—efallai eich bod chi wedi'i weld o. Dyna ydw i'n ei boeni i hefyd, bod yna beryg ein bod ni'n rhoi'r Gymraeg fel rhywbeth i wneud efo gwasanaethau a phethau ymylol tra bo pethau pwysig yn cael eu gadael ar ôl o ran gofynion safonau. Felly, buaswn i'n hoffi gweld mwy o feddwl holistic ynglŷn ag effaith safonau ar y sectorau y maen nhw'n effeithio arnyn nhw. 

Well, I agree that there's room for improvement in terms of the drafting of some of the standards, and I'm not quite sure what the objectives of some of those standards are, and, unfortunately, the explanatory memorandum didn't explain all of the ones that I would have hoped to have had some explanation of. 

The problem I have, I think, is that the standards—. The fear I see is that the standards focus very often too much on the important administrative issues, but they don't relate to the core business of the institution, because, of course, what we're trying to do here—. Well, of course, the Government wants to increase the number of Welsh speakers significantly; they are talking about changing the linguistic culture time and time again in order to achieve that aim. If you look at universities, for example—the business of a university, at the end of the day, is education, and what impacts the student's experience is the quality of the education that he or she receives. Well, of course, in the HE sector, we are fortunate in the sense that we do have a body that does promote and develop, namely the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. Therefore, that element is already well developed. For me, I would like to see better linkage between the standards and the important core work that will change the habits and culture of an institution. That's the argument I make in my paper—you might have seen it. That's also my concern—that there is a risk that we are putting the Welsh language to one side as something related to the peripheral administrative issues whilst the important things are left behind in terms of the requirements imposed by standards. So, I would like to see more holistic thinking about the impact of standards on the sectors on which they impact.

10:55

Diddorol iawn. Fe allem ni athronyddu am sbel, ond rwy'n sylweddoli cyfyngiadau amser, felly fe wnaf stopio fan yna. 

That's very interesting. We could have philosophised further on this, but I know time is restricted, so I'll stop there. 

Ocê, diolch, Dai Lloyd. Mick Antoniw. 

Okay, thank you, Dai Lloyd. Mick Antoniw

Thank you. Talking about philosophising on this, one of the areas that concern me is the issues around the relationship between legislation and the promotion of the language. It seems to me, from reading your evidence and also other witness evidence, there is confusion about what the purpose of legislation actually is. Is that a fair comment?

Professor R. Gwynedd Parry 10:56:07

Fe wnaf i ateb yn Gymraeg. Mae yna elfen o wir yn hynny. Mae yna elfen o ddiffyg cyfathrebu, i raddau, ynglŷn â phwrpas ac amcanion y safonau—beth mae'r safonau'n ceisio ei gyflawni, felly. Ond, rydw i'n teimlo, serch hynny, yn y drafodaeth gyhoeddus sydd wedi bod, fod yna elfen o orbwysleisio'r bwlch rhwng hyrwyddo a safonau.

I mi, mae'r safonau yn arf i hyrwyddo, oherwydd eu bod nhw yn rhoi set o ofynion clir ar sefydliad. Maent yn mynd â ni o fyd disgresiwn a dehongliad goddrychol, sy'n rhoi pwysau wedyn ar staff prifysgol i feddwl, 'A ddylem ni wneud hyn, a allwn ni osgoi gwneud hyn neu beidio, a ydy o'n costio gormod?' Os oes yna ofyniad statudol yna mae'n cael gwared ar amwysedd a disgresiwn ac mae pawb yn deall lle maen nhw'n sefyll. Nid yw'n fater o blesio rhywun sy'n siarad Cymraeg neu ddiwallu rhyw gais personol. Yn hytrach, yr unig beth sy'n digwydd ydy rydym ni'n cydymffurfio â'r gofynion statudol, a dyna fo ar ei ben.

Mae'r staff, chwarae teg iddyn nhw, yn fy mhrifysgol i—dyna'r math o ymateb rydw i'n ei dderbyn. Os ydw i'n dweud, 'Gwrandewch, mae rhywun wedi anfon e-bost i chi yn Gymraeg ac rydych chi wedi ateb yn Saesneg'—'O,dyw hynny ddim yn iawn, mae'r safon yn gofyn am ymateb yn Gymraeg.' Maen nhw'n ymateb mewn ffordd gadarnhaol fel yna, felly rydw i'n credu—. Rydw i'n gyndyn o orbwysleisio. Rydw i'n deall y pwynt ynglŷn â'r diffyg hyrwyddo ac mae yna fwy o waith i'w wneud o ran hynny, ond rydw i'n credu bod y safonau yn gwneud gwahaniaeth.

I'll respond in Welsh. There is an element of truth in that. There is an element of a lack of communication, to a certain extent, as to the purpose and objectives of the standards—what the standards are seeking to deliver. But, I do feel, however, in the public discourse that there's been, that there's been an overemphasis on the gap between promotion and standards.

For me, the standards are a tool for promotion, because they do provide a clear set of requirements for institutions. They take us from the world of discretion and subjective interpretation, which puts pressure on university staff to think, 'Should we do this, can we get away with not doing this, is it too expensive?' If there is a statutory requirement, then it takes away that discretion and ambiguity, and everyone knows where they stand. It's not a matter of pleasing a Welsh speaker or meeting some personal request by an indiviudal. Instead, what happens is we comply with the statutory requirements placed upon us, and that's it.

The staff, to be fair to them, at my university—that's the kind of response I hear. If I say, 'Listen, someone has sent you an e-mail in Welsh and you've responded in English'—they say, 'Oh, that's not right, the standard requires a response through the medium of Welsh.' They respond positively to that. I don't want to overemphasise this. I understand the point on the lack of promotion and there's more work to be done in terms of that, but I do think that the standards are making a difference.

Er fy mod i'n cytuno bod y safonau yn hybu a bod rheoleiddio'n fodd o hybu a hyrwyddo, rydw i'n meddwl ar y funud nad yw hynny'n ddigon. Rydw i'n meddwl ein bod ni angen llawer mwy na hynny. I raddau, rwy'n cytuno, ond rydw i'n meddwl—

Even though I agree that the standards promote and that regulation is a means of promotion, I think at the moment that isn't sufficient. I think we need much more than that. To an extent, I agree, but I think—

I very much welcome those comments. Just to get clarity, because I think it's really quite important to know where we're going when we start talking about whether we legislate or whether we don't and what the purpose of it is, what you seem to be saying is that the legislation creates the framework of rights for the language. It creates a framework within which the promotion of the language takes place. Is that a correct summary?

Professor R. Gwynedd Parry 10:58:47

I think that's a very, very fair summary. Within that framework—

O fewn y fframwaith hwnnw, gallwch chi wedyn hyrwyddo, yn yr ystyr eich bod chi'n cefnogi pobl i gydymffurfio â'r gofynion. Rydych chi mewn ffordd yn dweud wrthyn nhw, 'Rydym ni yma i'ch galluogi chi i gyflawni eich dyletswyddau tuag at yr iaith.' Mae'r hyrwyddo i bwrpas wedyn. Fel arall, mae peryg i hyrwyddo heb ofynion statudol fynd yn rhywbeth gwirfoddol, amwys, opsiynol, ac mae gan hynny broblemau. Felly, dyna fuaswn i'n ei ddweud. Mae angen mwy o hyrwyddo, mi ydw i'n derbyn hynny, ond mae hynny'n bwynt gwahanol, rydw i'n meddwl.

Within that framework, you can then promote, in the sense that you support people to comply with the requirements. In a way, you're telling them, 'We're here to enable you to fulfil your duties towards the language.' Promotion is then for a purpose. Otherwise, without statutory requirements, there's a danger it will become something that's voluntary, ambiguous, optional, and that has problems. So, that's what I would say. There is a need for more promotion, I accept that, but that is a different point, I think.

Rydw i'n meddwl hefyd fod yna nifer o asiantaethau, nifer o bobl yn hyrwyddo, nifer o fudiadau yn hyrwyddo a hybu, ond nid yw'r modd y mae'n cael ei wneud yn cael ei gydlynu ar y funud. Rydw i'n teimlo bod pobl fel y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol yn gwneud gwaith arbennig yn marchnata ac yn hybu addysg uwch drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, y Mudiad Meithrin, a'r Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. Ond mae pawb yn gweithio, i raddau, ar wahân. Nid oes neb yn tynnu’r holl beth at ei gilydd. Rydw i’n meddwl efallai, ochr yn ochr efo'r rheoleiddio yma sy'n bwysig iawn ac yn hanfodol inni i gyd, fod angen rhyw fath o system sy'n dod â phob dim at ei gilydd. Ddoe roeddwn i'n eistedd mewn cyfarfod yng Nghyngor Sir y Fflint—cyfarfod fforwm strategaeth y Gymraeg mewn addysg, sef y cynrychiolwyr o'r cyngor, mudiad a'r mentrau iaith, ac un o'r prif bethau yr oedd pawb yn ei deimlo oedd bod yna neb yn cydlynu'r marchnata ac yn gwerthu'r Gymraeg fel sgil pwysig ym myd addysg ac yn y gweithle. Rydw i'n meddwl bod hwnnw ar goll yn rhywle. Rydw i'n meddwl bod yna ormod o bwyslais efallai wedi bod ar y rheoleiddio yma. Mae hynny'n bwysig hefyd, ond rydw i'n meddwl ein bod ni angen symud ymlaen rŵan. Rydw i’n meddwl ein bod ni angen mynd i—

I also think that there are a number of agencies, many people involved with promotion, a number of organisations are involved with promotion, but the way it's done is not co-ordinated at the moment. I do feel that people such as Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol do some excellent work in marketing and promoting higher education through the medium of Welsh, Mudiad Meithrin, the National Centre for Learning Welsh. But, to a certain extent, people are working in silos. Nobody's drawing it together. I think, perhaps, along with this regulation, which is very important and crucial for us all, we do need some sort of system that draws all of these strands together. Yesterday, I attended a meeting at Flintshire County Council—it was a meeting of the Welsh in education strategy forum, including representatives of the council, Mudiad Meithrin and the mentrau—and one of the main things that were expressed was that there was nobody co-ordinating the marketing and selling the Welsh language as an important skill, both in education and in the workplace. I think that’s gone missing somewhere. I think there’s been too much emphasis on regulation. That is also important, but I do think that we need to make progress now; we need to move forward.

11:00

Buaswn i'n dadlau nad wyf i'n meddwl bod yna ormod o bwyslais wedi bod ar y rheoleiddio, ond efallai bod angen grym y ddeddfwriaeth i symud yr agenda ymlaen. Ond rydw i yn credu bod yna fwlch o ran yr hybu a'r hyrwyddo yn sicr. Mae yna angen cydlynu yna.

I would argue that I don’t think there’s been too much emphasis on regulation, but I think there is a need for the power of the legislation to move the agenda forward. But I do think that there is a gap in terms of the promotion. Certainly, there is a need to co-ordinate that.

Rydw i'n siŵr, petasem ni'n gofyn i'n myfyrwyr ni, 'A ydych yn gwybod beth yw'r safonau?', efallai na fuasen nhw'n gwybod, ond pe baech chi'n gofyn iddyn nhw beth yw eu hawliau nhw, efallai eu bod nhw'n deall hynny. Efallai bod yna angen inni weithio ar farchnata'r iaith Gymraeg iddyn nhw, yn arbennig mewn ardaloedd fel rydym ni'n gweithio ynddyn nhw.

I’m sure that if we asked our students whether they know what the standards are, they probably wouldn't know, but if they were asked what their rights were, they would understand that. Perhaps we need to work on marketing the Welsh language to them, particularly in the areas that we work in.

Rydym ni i gyd yn ei wneud yn unigol yn ein sefydliadau nawr, ond mae angen efallai inni i gyd wneud yr un gwaith. Efallai bod angen mwy o gydlynu a mwy o gymorth i wneud y cydlynu hynny.

But we all do it individually at the moment, but there is a need, perhaps, for us all to do the same work. Perhaps there is a need for more co-ordination and more support for that co-ordination.

If I can then take that on to the couple of other areas that I think it leads on to, and, really, what I'm getting at is getting clarity as to the direction that we think language policy and enforcement and so on should go. Of course, it raises two issues then: one is, where the responsibility for the promotion of language lies and, secondly, what the role of the commissioner is within the process. It seems to me there's been confusion over the role of the commissioner and what that could be or should be and this may well impact on the issues as to whether there should be further regulation or not. We'll obviously come to that later on, but there clearly seem to be confusing views as to what that role is and who's responsible for it.

I was just wondering whether I could extract from you—. If I just put down the suggestion—and I'd be grateful if you'd just let me know whether it fits in—that the Government is responsible for the promotion of the language and the levers of it and the commissioner's responsibility is for ensuring that the regulations are properly applied and the rights are enforced. Are those too restrictive or are those the correct breaking down of the process?

Professor R. Gwynedd Parry 11:02:51

Nid dyna fwriadwyd, nid wyf yn meddwl, pan luniwyd y Mesur. Bwriadwyd bod y comisiynydd hefyd yn hyrwyddo a bod yr hyrwyddo a'r rheoleiddio yn digwydd law yn llaw. Hynny ydy, rheoleiddio i bwrpas a'r pwrpas ydy lles yr iaith Gymraeg a chynyddu'r cyfleoedd i'w defnyddio a gwella cyflwr yr iaith yng Nghymru. Felly, y weledigaeth yn wreiddiol, rydw i'n meddwl, oedd bod y ddau beth yn cydweithio gyda'i gilydd—eich bod chi'n rheoleiddio i bwrpas, er mwyn hyrwyddo'r iaith mewn ffordd.

Mae'n bwysig cadw golwg ar hynny. Nid yw rheoleiddio er ei les ei hun, fel rhyw fath o system fewnol hunangynhaliol, ddim yn llawer o les, oni bai ei fod o'n creu'r newid. Beth yr ydych ei eisiau mewn ffordd efo unrhyw gyfundrefn ydy bod y rheoleiddio yna, ond mewn ffordd, mae pawb yn gwybod ei fod o yna ac oherwydd ei fod o yna, mae pawb yn cydymffurfio, felly does dim angen troi ato—mae o fel rhyw fath o arf sydd ddim ond yna pan mai ei angen o, mewn amgylchiadau penodol pan fo methiant neu ddiffyg mewn rhyw ffordd.

Felly, dyna oedd y weledigaeth, ond rydw i'n credu eich bod chi'n iawn fod yna ganfyddiad wedi datblygu mai rheoleddiwr ydy'r comisiynydd. Mae hynny oherwydd bod yr holl gyfundrefn newydd yma wedi cymryd llawer o amser o ran creu safonau i ddechrau a'u gosod nhw ac yn y blaen. Rydw i'n meddwl hefyd fod yna lefydd i wella. Mae eisiau mireinio'r gyfundrefn o ran gorfodaeth, cwyno a rôl y tribiwnlys. Mae yna le i wella hynny, ac nid bai'r tribiwnlys ac nid bai'r comisiynydd ydy hynny. Yn anffodus, bai'r Mesur ydy hynny—bod gormod o fanion bethau wedi sugno amser ac egni. Felly, mae angen cyflwyno rhyw elfen o gymesuroldeb i'r system o ran rheoleiddio ac o ran gorfodi yn fy marn i.

Ond wrth symud ymlaen, rydw i eisiau gweld system lle mae'r hyrwyddo i bwrpas a bod y rheoleiddio yna i gefnogi'r hyrwyddo fel arf sydd yn gwneud yr hyrwyddo yn fwy effeithol—bod y results, y canlyniadau, yn well. Dyna fuaswn i'n ei ddweud fel ymateb i hynny. Felly, nid wyf i'n hollol hapus efo'r rhaniad yna rhwng dau beth. 

Y pwynt olaf, mae'n ddrwg gennyf i: Llywodraeth Cymru yn y pen draw sydd â'r dasg o hyrwyddo'r iaith Gymraeg drwy'r holl asiantaethau. Nhw sy'n ariannu'r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol yn y pen draw. Nhw sydd yn ariannu'r holl gyrff eraill. Felly, y Llywodraeth sydd gan y grym a'r awdurdod i hyrwyddo yn effeithiol. Nid oes yna ddim dwywaith am hynny. 

I don’t think that was the intention when the Measure was drawn up. It was intended that the commissioner would also be involved with promotion and that the promotion and regulation should go hand in hand. Namely, it was regulation for a purpose and that purpose was the well-being of the Welsh language and enhancing and increasing opportunities to use the Welsh language and improve its state in Wales. So, the vision originally, I think, was that both things should work together—that you were regulating for a purpose, in order to promote the language in a way.

It’s important to bear that in mind because regulation for its own sake, as some sort of internal self-sustaining system, isn't of much use, unless it generates change. What you want with any regime is that the regulation is in place, but in a way, everyone knows it’s there and because it’s there, everyone complies, so you don’t need to turn to it. It is a tool, but it’s only there when required, in particular circumstances when there are failures of some kind or another.

So, that was the vision, but I do think that you’re right—that there is a perception that’s developed that the commissioner is a regulator. That’s because this whole new regime has taken a great deal of time in, first of all, developing the standards and imposing them. I also think that there is room for improvement. We need to refine the system in terms of enforcement, complaints and the tribunal's role. I don’t think that it’s the tribunal’s fault or the commissioner’s fault. Unfortunately, it’s down to the Measure itself—that there are too many minutiae that have taken up time and energy. So, we need an element of proportionality in the system in terms of enforcement, in my view.

But in moving on, I do want to see a system where the promotion is done for a purpose and the regulation is there to support that as a tool that makes that promotion more effective, so that the results are improved. That would be my response. So, I'm not quite happy with this separation of the two things. 

And this is my final point. Ultimately, it is the Welsh Government who is tasked with promoting the Welsh language through all of its agencies. They fund the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol at the end of the day. They fund all of the other organisations too. So, it's the Government that holds the power and the authority to promote effectively. There's no doubt about that. 

11:05

A oes unrhyw un arall eisiau dweud rhywbeth?

Does anyone else want to say something?

Na, byddwn i'n cytuno bod y peth wedi cael ei rannu'n ddau, ac rydw i'n teimlo ei bod hi'n gyfle rŵan i ddod â'r ddau at ei gilydd a gweithio'n agosach, a chael dylanwad efallai a chydlynu a chael effaith. Mae yna lot o fudiadau sy'n hyrwyddo'r iaith Gymraeg yn gweithio ar wahân i'w gilydd, efallai yn gweithio mewn rhyw silos. Mae'n hen bryd tynnu pob dim at ei gilydd er mwyn cael effaith, a gwell gwerth am arian hefyd, achos mae yna ddyblygu gwaith yn digwydd hefyd rydw i'n meddwl. 

No, I would agree that it has been separated in two, and feel that it's an opportunity now to bring both together and to work closer, and to have an influence perhaps and to co-ordinate and have an impact. There are a number of organisations that promote the Welsh language working separately to each other, and working perhaps in some silos. It's time now to bring everything together in order to have an impact, and better value for money, because there is duplication of work happening, I think. 

Cytuno. 

I would agree. 

Okay. Just one point on that. So, where that takes us is that—and I think these are important to questions a little bit later on in terms of issues around new legislation and so on—the role of the commissioner clearly is a regulatory role; that seems to be agreed. But, clearly, the commissioner does not have the organs of policy and the assets of Government in terms of change, in particular, the policy of increasing the number of Welsh speakers and the usage of Welsh. So, you see the role of the commissioner as being perhaps a more traditional commissioner's role in terms of reporting how effective Government is in carrying out its responsibilities, rather than the commissioner having the responsibility for taking that on board. Is that a fair breakdown of responsibilities? That's what I'm trying to get at. 

Professor R. Gwynedd Parry 11:07:13

I ryw raddau, rydw i'n cytuno efo chi. Rwy'n credu bod yna ddisgwyliadau afrealistig wedi bod o swydd y comisiynydd, ac rydw i'n meddwl bod hynny'n rhan o'r build-up fuodd o ran creu y swydd a'r disgwyliadau. Rydw i'n meddwl bod y teitl 'pencampwr y Gymraeg' yn felltith o'r dechrau, fel rhyw felltith Roegaidd ar y person, achos nid oes sut beth â phencampwr y Gymraeg. Mae eisiau lleng o bencampwyr. Mae eisiau catrawd o bencampwyr i hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg mewn gwahanol amrywiol ffyrdd a pharthau o fewn cymdeithas. Felly, roedd hynny'n rhan o'r broblem. 

Rydw i'n cytuno bod angen—. Beth sydd angen ydy cylch gorchwyl mwy clir a phenodol i'r comisiynydd. Yn hytrach nag ei bod hi'n teimlo bod yn rhaid iddi hi—neu fo, pwy bynnag fydd y comisiynydd—hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg yn ei holl agweddau, sydd yn amhosib, bod yna gylch gorchwyl mwy clir—wel, gall y comisiynydd hyrwyddo yn y ffordd yma: efallai hyrwyddo arfer da corfforaethol, efallai hyrwyddo arfer da o weithredu o ran sefydliadau sy'n dod o dan adain safonau'r Gymraeg, bod yna gyswllt fel yna. Ond rydw i'n derbyn bod angen diffiniad cliriach o swyddogaeth y comisiynydd, a beth all y comisiynydd ei wneud a beth yw dyletswydd Llywodraeth, ac yn y blaen. 

To a certain extent, I agree with you. I think there have been unrealistic expectations of the commissioner's role, and I think that was part of the build-up in terms of the creation of the post and the expectations. And I think that 'a champion for the Welsh language' is a title with some sort of curse attached to it, a sort of Greek curse on the person. There's no such thing as a Welsh language champion. You need a whole host or regiment of champions to promote the Welsh language in various different ways, and in the various domains within society. That was part of the problem. 

I agree there is a need—. I think what we need is a clearer remit, and a more specific remit for the commissioner. Rather than feeling that he or she has to promote the Welsh language in all aspects, which is clearly impossible, there should be a more clearly set out remit—the commissioner can promote in these ways, perhaps promoting good practice at a corporate level, promoting good practice within institutions that are captured under standards. There should be that linkage. But I do accept that we do need a clearer definition of the functions of the commissioner, and what the commissioner can do and what the duties of Government are. 

Diolch am hynny. Mae'n rhaid inni symud ymlaen. Os oes unrhyw sylwadau pellach ar hynny, croeso ichi ysgrifennu atom ni yn sicr. David Melding. 

Thank you for that. We need to move on, but if you have further comments, you are welcome to write to us. David Melding. 

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I think, in the natural flow of things, some aspects of my questions have already been covered. So, if I can just tweak some of the things we're interested in a little bit, this whole issue of the number and complexity of the standards, I'm just trying to think what the optimum model would be, and it seems to me that you want a closer connection between the standard and the standard in practice. There are several standards sometimes that more or less cover the same area, so that would again be an area for simplification. And some standards at the moment relate to too many bureaucratic, administrative things, which are cumbersome. Is that a fair summary of what—

Rydw i'n meddwl bod hynny'n deg. Rydw i'n meddwl ein bod ni'n teimlo eu bod nhw'n hynod o gymhleth. Buasai'n braf i'w symleiddio nhw. Nid ydym ni eisiau cael gwared arnyn nhw, mae'n bwysig eu bod nhw'n dal yno, ond bod efallai angen eu symleiddio nhw a'u grwpio nhw i mewn i sefyllfaoedd lle buasem ni'n gallu eu deall nhw'n well a buasen nhw'n haws i'w dehongli ac yn haws gweithio efo nhw. Mae yna lot ohonyn nhw'n ailadroddus, ond jest bod rhywbeth bach yn newid ym mhob un. Nid wyf yn gwybod, Lois, sut rwyt ti'n teimlo. 

I think that's fair. I think we feel that they're very complex. It would be good to simplify them. We don't want to get rid of them, it's important that they're still there, but perhaps there is a need to simplify them and group them into situations where we could understand them better, where they'd be easier to interpret and easier to work with. Many of them are repetitive, with just something small changing in each one of them. I don't know how you feel, Lois. 

11:10

Rwy'n teimlo efallai taw nad y broblem yw’r safon yn ei hun, ond dehongli’r safonau sydd yn dod gydag e a’r holl ddogfennaeth ar ddehongli’r safonau. Os wyt ti’n darllen y rheini wedyn, rwyt ti’n gweld, ‘O, mewn gwirionedd, mae e ddim ond yn berthnasol os wyt ti’n gwneud hyn, hyn, hyn a hyn’. Nid yw’n glir i’r defnyddwyr beth yn union yw eu hawliau nhw o dan y safonau. Felly, buaswn i’n dweud efallai nad y safonau eu hunain yw’r broblem, ond yr holl ddehongli y tu ôl i hynny, sy’n cyfyngu beth yw hawliau pobl.

I feel that the problem isn't necessarily the standard itself, but the interpretation of the standards and all of the documentation on interpretation. When you read those, you see, 'Well, in reality, it only relates to this, that and the other'. It's not clear to the user what exactly their rights are under the standards. So, I would say that it's not necessarily the standards that are the problem, but the whole interpretation that underpins them, which restricts people's rights.

I think you’ve all said that you’ve only had six months, basically, to work with this standards regime, and I thought Professor Parry’s slight parody, I suppose of—. You know, Welsh language schemes often just sit in a drawer and standards seem to be very active. But presumably, given this new way of working is only six months old, if you had more time with standards into practice, you’d develop confidence about whether tutors are needed in FE, when, often, you don’t actually allocate tutors. Is that something you think would naturally develop? So, it’s your own interpretation rather than—. In a sense, that’s quite important for the resilience of the scheme, or do you think that some of the internal contradictions are such that we’re never going to get to that level of confidence and expertise in practice?

Rydw i’n meddwl, dros amser, efallai fyddwn ni’n fwy cyfarwydd efo’r safonau—yn fwy cyfarwydd, achos mae yna 160 ohonyn nhw; mae yna lawer iawn ohonyn nhw ac mae o’n reit gymhleth. Pan fydd yna rywun yn gweithio’n fewnol efo staff yn fewnol ac rŷm ni i gyd â’r taenlennu anferthol yma, mae’r cyfarfodydd i fynd trwy bob un yn cymryd oriau. Dros gyfnod o amser, byddwn ni’n fwy cyfarwydd a gallwn ni ddweud, ‘O, safon y peth a'r peth ydy hwn’. Serch hynny, rydw i'n dal i deimlo eu bod nhw'n dal i fod yn rhy gymhleth, mae'n dal i fod angen eu symleiddio nhw. I raddau, rydym ni i gyd wedi gwneud hynny ein hunain o fewn ein sefydliadau ein hunain—wedi gorfod eu symleiddio nhw er mwyn i staff eu deall nhw ac er mwyn i’r myfyrwyr eu deall nhw.

I think over time, perhaps we'll be more familiar with the standards—we'll be more familiar with them because there are 160 of them; there are many of them and it's quite complex. When somebody's working internally with staff and we all have these massive spreadsheets, the meetings to go through them all take ages. Over a period of time, we'll be more familiar with them and will be able to say, 'Well, that's standard such and such'. Despite that, I still feel that they're too complex and that there is still a need to simplify them. To an extent, we've all done that ourselves within our own organisations—we've had to simplify them so that staff can understand them and students can understand them.

Mewn gwirionedd, maent am bethau fel hawl i gael y Gymraeg yn y dderbynfa, hawl i gael galwadau ffôn yn y Gymraeg, ond beth yw busnes coleg addysg bellach? Busnes coleg yw i ddarparu addysg ac nid yw’r safonau’n cyffwrdd ag unrhyw hawliau o ran addysg o gwbl.

In reality, it's the things like the right to have the Welsh language in reception areas and telephone conversations through the medium of Welsh, but what's the business of a college? It's to provide education, and the standards don't touch upon any rights in terms of that education.

Lle, i raddau, roedd y cynlluniau iaith yn cynnwys addysg, so mae hynny, mewn ffordd, wedi cael ei ddisgyn, ac mae’r rheini hefyd, wedyn, yn rhan o fusnes yn hytrach nag o ran y cwricwlwm.

Where, to an extent, the language schemes did, so that, in a way, has been dropped, and those are therefore part of the business, rather than the curriculum.

Felly, o ran profiad ein myfyrwyr ni, nid ydyn nhw wir yn cael efallai'r effaith y buasem ni'n dymuno. 

So, in terms of our students' experience, perhaps they're not having the impact that we would like.

Professor R. Gwynedd Parry 11:13:04

Beth hoffwn i ei weld ydy bod y safonau yma’n cael eu trin fel pethau byw sydd yn addasu’n gyson. Gyda’r hen gynlluniau iaith, unwaith yr oedd cynllun iaith wedi’i ddrafftio, wel, dyna fo, wedyn—dyna fo. A wedyn, wrth gwrs, roedd o’n ffosileiddio, mewn ffordd, ar ôl hyn a hyn o flynyddoedd oherwydd nid oedd o’n addasu i newid. Mae’r safonau yma’n bethau byw a chyfle sydd gennym ni, wrth gwrs, yn y cyd-destun cyfansoddiadol sydd ohoni. Yn yr hen drefn, Deddf iaith ac un arall ymhen chwarter canrif wedyn ac un arall ymhen chwarter canrif wedi hynny a’r holl helynt oedd i gael unrhyw fath o ddatblygiad. Rydym ni wedi symud o fanna, ac mae’r cyfle, wrth gwrs, gan y Cynulliad, gan y Llywodraeth i gymryd stoc o set o safonau yn rheolaidd a newid ac addasu. So, os ydy’r safon yna’n aneffeithiol oherwydd nid yw o’n newid dim byd mewn gwirionedd, mae’n gostus, nid oes yna ddim byd i neb ohono fo, yna, cael gwared arno fo, cael safon wahanol. Rydw i’n meddwl, cyd â bod y math yna o fentaliti’n dod i mewn i’r system, bydd o’n adweithio, wedyn, i newidiadau. Dyna fyddwn i’n gofyn amdano fo.

What I'd like to see is that standards are treated as living things that adapt and evolve consistently. With the old language schemes, once the scheme had been drafted, that was it. It then fossilised, in a way, after so many years because it was no longer fit for purpose. These standards are living standards and we have an opportunity in the current constitutional context. In the old system, you had a Welsh language Act, and another 25 years later and another 25 years hence, and there were huge problems in getting any sort of development. We've moved from there and, of course, the Assembly and the Government have an opportunity to take stock of a set of standards regularly and to adapt and change those. So, if that standard is ineffective because it changes nothing, it's expensive and there is no benefit to it, then scrap it and put another standard in place. I think that as long as that sort of mentality exists within the system, then it would react and bring about changes. That's what I would request.

Rydw i'n meddwl efallai y bydd hynny, wedyn, yn caniatáu i adnoddau ac amser gael eu symud i wneud y gwaith pwysig o hybu a hyrwyddo hefyd.

I think that that would perhaps allow for our resources and time to be directed towards the important work of promotion.

Buaswn i'n gwneud y pwynt hefyd, o ran beth sydd yn bwysig am y broses safonau, nad yw e'n safonol i'r sefydliadau. Rŷm ni wedi bod trwy broses lafurus iawn gyda herio rhai safonau ac, yn sgil hynny, wedi cael newidiadau wedi'u gwneud i rai o'n safonau ni. Felly, nid yw'n safonau ni'r un peth â'ch safonau chi. Ac ai dyna beth yw pwrpas y peth, sef nad yw defnyddwyr yn gwybod beth yw eu hawliau nhw, wedyn, o fynd o un corff i gorff arall?

I would make the point also, in terms of what's important for the standards process, that it's not standardised for the institutions. We've gone through a very laborious process of challenging some standards and, as a result, we've had changes made to some of our standards. So, our standards aren't the same standards as yours. And is that the intention—that users don't know what their rights are, then, in going from one organisation to another organisation?

Okay. What are the dangers, then, if we go down the road of having another language Act, in losing this dynamism? Because what you've described seems to me like a fundamental shift in the way we view things, a new scheme, a new way of trying to implement rights via standards. And that's the core of the Measure, and it seems to be working. I know how it then gets refined in practice takes time, but, frankly, that's to be expected, it seems to me. But is there a danger, if we now go down the road of, 'Well, we need an Act and we need to do all sorts of things in that Act around promotion', are we going to lose this dynamism, this significant step forward we've had with standards?

11:15

Nid wyf i'n meddwl y gwnawn ni ei golli o achos mae o gennym ni’n barod, ac nid ydym ni'n awyddus i’w golli o. Rŷm ni jest yn gofyn, efallai, i'w deilwra fo ychydig bach a’i newid o ychydig bach er budd. Nid wyf i'n meddwl ein bod ni’n mynd i golli hynny, ond rydw i'n meddwl bod yna ddarn mawr ar goll nad ydym ni'n ei wneud ar hyn o bryd, ac oherwydd nad oes yna’r adnoddau i gyd, a bod pob dim yn cael ei reoleiddio—mai rheoleiddio ydy’r peth pwysig—. Mae rheoleiddio’n andros o bwysig, ond mae yna bethau’n cael eu colli.

I don't think we'll lose it because we've got it already, and we're not keen to lose it. We're just asking for it, perhaps, to be tailored a little and to change it a little to bring benefit. I don't think we're going to lose that, but I think there is a big piece that is missing and that we're not doing at the moment because there aren't the resources and that everything is regulated—regulation seems to be the most important thing—. Regulation is extremely important, but there are things that are being lost.

Professor R. Gwynedd Parry 11:16:23

Nid wyf i'n gwbl siŵr os oes angen cyfraith neu Ddeddf i ddelio gyda hyrwyddo. Os mai’r diffyg ydy’r hyrwyddo, yr elfen honno, nid wyf yn siŵr os oes eisiau cyfraith newydd. Beth sydd ei eisiau ydy adnoddau, strwythura, polisïau—y pethau yna sydd eu hangen rŵan. Delio gyda'r elfen reoleiddio y mae'r Mesur, fel pob Mesur, a dweud y gwir; creu'r gofynion, y dyletswyddau yma mae cyfraith. Felly, nid wyf i'n gwybod. Mae’ch cwestiwn chi’n iawn—mae peryg inni golli rhuddin y drefn bresennol drwy gael trafodaethau hir ynglŷn â’r drefn o roi safonau ar waith: a ddylem ni gael comisiynydd neu gomisiwn, a’r pethau yma. Ond pethau gweithdrefnol ydy’r rheini, rydw i'n meddwl, ac rydw i'n cytuno bod angen gwyliadwriaeth rhag ymyrryd gormod, ac yn gynamserol hefyd. Rwyf yn deall yr angen i ymateb, ond mae angen rhoi ychydig o gyfle i rywbeth gael ei weithredu.

I'm not entirely sure if we need law to deal with promotion. If the problem is on the promotional side, I don't think you need new law. What you need is resources, structures, policies. It's those things that are needed now. The Measure deals with regulation, as would any Measure. Legislation creates the requirement, the duties. So, I don't know. Your question is entirely right, in that there is a risk that we lose the core of the current system by having lengthy discussions on the process of implementing standards: should we have a commissioner or a commission? But I think those are procedural things, and I do agree that we need to be guarded in not interfering too much and not interfering prematurely. I understand that we need to respond, but you do need to give something time to bed in.

Rwyf yn meddwl byddai sefydlu comisiwn efo cyfrifoldeb penodol am hybu a hyrwyddo yn rhoi statws i hybu a hyrwyddo, achos, ar y funud, rheoleiddio sy’n bwysig; dyma beth sydd yn rhaid inni ei wneud. ‘O, hybu a hyrwyddo, o, ie, iawn, gwnawn ni hynny, os oes gennym ni’r amser'. Mae angen sifft, rydw i'n meddwl. So, rydw i'n meddwl buasai sefydlu comisiwn yn rhoi statws i’r gwaith o hybu a hyrwyddo, a chydlynu a dod â phob dim ynghyd. Mae yna lot o waith da yn digwydd yng Nghymru—llawer iawn o adnoddau, llawer iawn o arian. Mae angen ei dynnu fo i gyd at ei gilydd er mwyn cael yr effaith orau bosib.

I think establishing a commission with a specific responsibility for promotion would give status to promotion because, at the moment, regulation is what is important. This is what we have to do. 'Oh, promotion, okay, we'll do that if we've got the time'. There is need for a shift, I think. So, I think establishing a commission would provide status for the work of promotion and co-ordination to bring everything together. There's a lot of good work happening in Wales—a lot of resources, a lot of money. There's a need to bring it all together to have the best possible impact.

And can I finish with this focused question? Has the Government's moratorium on introducing standards to other sectors had any effect on the behaviour of your institutions and the wider sector?

Professor R. Gwynedd Parry 11:18:10

Yr ateb gonest ydy ‘na’, nid mewn gwirionedd. 'Na', fyddai’r ateb. Nid wyf i wedi cael y syniad bod yna ryw adwaith wedi bod i hynny.

The honest answer is 'no,' if truth be told. 'No' would be the answer; I haven't been given the impression that there's been any response to that.

That's fine. That's a good answer. You don't need to expand, necessarily.

Rydw i'n meddwl ei fod o wedi cael effaith arnom ni, a bod yn onest, achos rydym ni'n cydweithio’n agos â’r cynghorau, ac rydw i'n meddwl ein bod ni wedi bod yn rhan o’u strategaeth hybu pum mlynedd nhw mewn gwahanol ardaloedd. Felly, rydw i'n meddwl ein bod ni wedi bod yn rhan o hynny. So, rydw i’n meddwl ei fod o wedi, a dweud y gwir.

I think it has had an impact on us, to be honest, because we work very closely with the councils, and I think we've been part of their five-year promotion strategy in different areas. I think we've been part of that. So, I think it has, really.

Rwyf i'n cytuno. I raddau, mae e wedi, yn sicr, ond, fel y dywedaist ti, mae cydlynu beth mae’r awdurdodau lleol yn ei wneud a gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni’n rhan o hynny wedi cael effaith.

I agree. To an extent, it has, certainly, but as you said, co-ordinating what local authorities are doing and ensuring that we are part of that has had an impact.

Ocê. Mick. Diolch. Mick, rwyf yn credu bod rhai o’r cwestiynau wedi cael eu gofyn, ond—.

Okay. Mick, I think some of the questions have been asked. but—.

I think most of them have been answered. I've got one short one. I'd like to just ask an international question, if that's all right. So, in your view, do we really need new legislation? Do you think it's something we need to do, or could we actually get on with promotion and other work without the need for new legislation?

Professor R. Gwynedd Parry 11:19:25

Well, I think Llinos touched on the commission and whether that would be a significant improvement to the existing regime—whether that would be so significant that it would require legislative change.

I newid yn ôl i’r iaith arall, rydw i'n credu fy mod i’n derbyn bod yna broblemau efo’r drefn bresennol a bod angen newid pethau. Buaswn i’n awgrymu bod eisiau newid rhai pethau, yn sicr o ran y gyfundrefn gwyno. Rydw i’n credu bod eisiau dod ag elfen o gymesuroldeb i mewn i’r system. Felly, er enghraifft, rydw i’n credu y dylai fod gan y comisiwn yr hawl i benderfynu a ddylid cynnal ymchwiliad llawn neu beidio, a bod yna system leave, fel y buasem ni’n ei ddweud yn y gyfraith—leave to appeal, felly—a bod hynny’n digwydd ar lefel gynnar. A’r un modd gyda’r tribiwnlys, fel nad ydym ni bellach yn cael amser ac adnoddau’n mynd i mewn  i ymchwilio i bethau fel coeden Nadolig heb arwydd dwyieithog am gyfnod o ryw bythefnos a’r peth wedi’i dynnu i lawr cyn bod y peth yn dod o flaen neb.

Mae’n amlwg, o’n profiad ni, fod yna elfennau sydd eisiau eu gwella, felly, hoffwn i fod yna ganllawiau clir ar egwyddorion o ran y broses gorfodi. Mae eisiau edrych ar yr elfen honno ac efallai dim ond trwy wneud rhyw newid i’r Ddeddf y mae gwneud hynny, felly, a bod hynny wedi’i adeiladu i mewn. Rydym ni’n gwybod o benderfyniadau’r tribiwnlys fod y Mesur yn gofyn i ymchwiliad ddigwydd bob tro, bron iawn. Yn yr achosion hynny, fe wnaeth y comisiynydd ddweud, ‘Nid oes pwynt ymchwilio i hwn, achos mae’r peth wedi mynd heibio’. Wel, mi oedd y tribiwnlys yn dweud, ‘Wel, na, mae’n rhaid ichi ymchwilio os oes yna gŵyn ac os ydy o’n cwrdd â’r meini prawf yn y Mesur’. Felly, mae yna elfennau o’r Mesur y mae'n rhaid eu newid yn sicr, yn fy marn i, er mwyn cael gwared â rhai o’r elfennau hyn sydd ddim yn gweithio cystal ar hyn o bryd.

To switch languages, I accept that there are problems with the current system and that changes are required. I would suggest that some changes do need to be made, certainly in terms of the complaints procedure.  I do think that we need to bring an element of proportionality into the system. So, for example, I do think that the commission or the commissioner should have a right to decide whether a full investigation should be carried out so that there would be a leave-to-appeal system and that that should be in place at an early stage. And likewise with the tribunal, so that we don't see time and resources put into inquiring into a Christmas tree without a bilingual sign for a period of a fortnight that is then taken down before any complaint has been dealt with.

So, it's clear from our experience that there are elements that require improvement, so I would like to see clear guidance on the principles in terms of the enforcement process. We need to look at that element, and perhaps it's only through amendment to the Measure that that can be done and that it's built in. We know from the decisions of the tribunal that the Measure requires an investigation to take place on almost all occasions. In those cases where the commissioner says, 'There's no point in dealing with this because it has already lapsed', the tribunal said, 'Well, no, you have to investigate if there's a complaint and if it meets the criteria within the Measure'. So, there are elements of the Measure that do require change, in my view, in order to deal with some of these elements that don't work as well at the moment.

11:20

Rydw i’n meddwl ein bod ni’n teimlo bod angen deddfwriaeth newydd er mwyn ymgorffori’r holl bethau yma i mewn. Nid yw’r safonau a’r Mesur ar ben ei hun yn ddigonol i beth rydym ni’n wynebu ar hyn o bryd. Gawn ni byth miliwn o siaradwyr jest yn rheoleiddio fel rydym ni’n ei wneud ar y funud. Mae angen cyd-gysylltu efo’r system addysg a nifer o fudiadau eraill sy’n hyrwyddo’r iaith ar hyn o bryd. Mae angen dod â phob peth at ei gilydd, ac rydw i’n meddwl y byddai ddeddfwriaeth yn ein galluogi ni i wneud hynny.

I think we feel that there is a need for new legislation in order to incorporate all these things. I think the standards and the Measure on its own aren't sufficient for what we're facing at the moment. We'll never get a million speakers just by regulating, as we're doing at the moment. There is a need to link with the education system and a number of other organisations that promote the language at the moment. There is a need to bring everything together, and I think legislation would enable us to do that.

Yn bersonol, petai yna ddeddfwriaeth newydd, ni fyddem ni’n croesawu iddi fod yn wannach mewn unrhyw ffordd, ond ei bod efallai’n fwy fit for purpose, buaswn i’n ei ddweud. 

Personally, if there were to be new legislation, we wouldn't want to see it being weakened in any way but it could, perhaps, be more fit for purpose. That would be my comment.

Ocê. Mick, mae gan Caroline gwestiynau ar elfennau rhyngwladol, ond os ydych chi eisiau dod i mewn ar ei hôl hi, bydd hynny'n iawn.

Okay. Mick, Caroline has questions on the international context, but if you want to come in after that, that would be fine.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. What scale of admission price is planned for Cadw sites and how will this impact upon families with low incomes? That's right, isn't it? Am I wrong?

It's the question on the international element of the effects of the standards.

Professor R. Gwynedd Parry 11:22:47

Well, I could try and answer [Laughter.]

So, ie, os ydych chi'n gallu ateb yng nghyd-destun a oes yna enghreifftiau rhyngwladol? A ydych chi wedi edrych ar Wlad y Basg a Chanada, efallai? A ydych chi'n credu bod yna le i ni i ddysgu o'r gwledydd hynny, neu a ydyn nhw, efallai, yn gallu dysgu oddi wrthym ni, fel ein bod ni'n arwain yr agenda?

So, yes, if you can answer in the context of whether there are any international examples. Have you looked at the Basque Country and Canada, for example? Do you think that there is room for us to learn from those countries, or could they, perhaps, learn from us, so that we're leading the agenda?

Rydw i’n meddwl bod ColegauCymru wedi gwneud llawer iawn o waith yn rhyngwladol—wedi bod yng Ngwlad y Basg a Chatalonia, ac wedi bod yn edrych ar arfer dda yn fanno, ac mae yna arfer dda yn fanno. Mae’r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus i gyd yng Ngwlad y Basg, mae yna orfodaeth iddyn nhw gael rhyw lefel o Fasgeg, ac mae hynny wedi cael effaith anferthol ar nifer y siaradwyr sydd yna. Rydw i’n meddwl hefyd efallai nad yw defnydd o’r Fasgeg—yr un problemau ag sydd gennym ni yng Nghymru—cystal yn fanno ag ydy’r gallu i siarad Basgeg.

Felly, rydw i’n meddwl, o ran y defnydd, mae’n anodd. Mae rhywun yn edrych ar ieithoedd lleiafrifol—mae yna enghreifftiau yng Nghanada. Roeddwn i ym Montreal yn ddiweddar, a Ffrangeg ydy’r iaith. Saesneg ydy’r iaith leiafrifol o bell ffordd. Ym mhob gwesty a phob siop, ym mhob man, Ffrangeg ydy’r iaith rydych chi’n siarad. I ni gyrraedd hynny yng Nghymru, rydym ni’n edrych ar ganrif, efallai. Mae hon yn broses araf. So, mae yna enghreifftiau o arfer dda yn fanna, rydw i’n meddwl, y buasem ni’n gallu dysgu ohonyn nhw a sut maen nhw wedi dod i’r pwynt yna, efallai. Ac nid ydym ni'n dueddol o edrych ar Ganada; rydym ni’n dueddol o edrych ar Wlad y Basg a Chatalonia. Mae yna arfer dda yna, rydw i’n meddwl, ac rydw i’n meddwl bod ColegauCymru’n mynd allan ac yn gwneud y gwaith hynny ac yn adrodd ar yr arfer dda.

I think ColegauCymru has done a great deal of work internationally. We've been to the Basque Country and Catalonia, and have looked at good practice there, and there is good practice there. All public services in the Basque Country are required to have some level of language requirement, and that has had a huge impact on the number of speakers in that country. I also think that the usage—we have the same problems in Wales—of the Basque language isn't as strong as is the ability to speak it.

So, I think in terms of language use, it's difficult. One looks at minority languages, and there are examples in Canada;. I was in Montreal recently, where French is the lingua franca and English is the minority language. In every hotel and every shop, French is the language spoken. For us to reach that point in Wales, we're looking at a century, I would say, at least. This is a slow process. So, there are examples of good practice internationally that we could learn from in terms of how they've got to that point. We tend not to look at Canada; we tend to focus on the Basque Country and Catalonia. But there is good practice there, and I think ColegauCymru is getting out there and seeing that work and reporting on that good practice.

Mick Antoniw, roeddet ti eisiau—

Mick Antoniw, you wanted to—

You're really onto this issue, now, in terms of speakers as opposed to usage, which I think is a massively not-properly-thought-out issue. You correctly speak of the issue of a language that can be spoken by tens of millions that could be under threat because of usage. There are issues around the world in terms of how that is being addressed, because, you know, we have three or four major scales of cultural battle going on in terms of language, whether it be from Chinese to Russian to English, and so on. I'm just wondering whether you think we're doing enough to look at how the world more broadly—we've always tended to focus on the Basque area, the Catalan language and so on, Irish to some extent—and that we should be looking more broadly in terms of what is a global challenge to language usage and identity with language, rather than the focus on speakers. We could legislate and over a period of several generations we could have everyone in Wales know Welsh. But they may not use it. Creating an iconic language as opposed to a natural language seems to me one of the contradictions that exist to some extent in our policy that's not thought out. I'm just wondering, in terms of your own experiences of what is happening globally, what you think we could learn or we could focus on if we were to explore more some of the, I suppose, policies and approaches—you know, the learning experiences—from around the world.

11:25
Professor R. Gwynedd Parry 11:26:14

Wel, dim ond i ddweud y byddwn i yn eich annog chi i wneud hynny. Mae yna nifer o bethau.

Rydw i'n credu, cyn ateb yn benodol, mae llawer o bobl, wrth gwrs, ar hyd y byd—mae rhywun yn cyfarfod â nhw mewn cynadleddau a phethau fel hyn—yn gweld Cymru fel model ardderchog o arfer da, hefyd. Mae yna lawer iawn o bethau da iawn yn digwydd yma yng Nghymru. Felly, rhag inni fynd i ryw ffrwd negyddol, oherwydd ein bod ni'n gwyntyllu rhywbeth fel hyn, gallem ni fod yn falch iawn o lawer o bethau sydd yn digwydd yng Nghymru, a dweud y gwir. Ond beth sydd eisiau ei gweld ydy: sut mae dod i—? Mewn sefyllfa lle mae'r Gymraeg yn iaith y lleiafrif mewn unrhyw gymdeithas neu gymuned, sut mae delio â hynny? Dyna sydd yn amlwg yma. Os edrychwch chi ar Ffrangeg yng Nghanada, mae sefyllfa Ffrangeg yn amrywio yn sylweddol oherwydd niferoedd a chanran y boblogaeth sydd yn siarad yr iaith mewn unrhyw fan arbennig, felly. Mae gwahaniaeth rhwng—. Mae'r sefyllfa yn Quebec yn dra gwahanol i Frunswick Newydd, er enghraifft, oherwydd hynny. Wedyn, mae'r ymyraethau sydd eu hangen yn aml iawn yn dibynnu ar y sefyllfa ar y pryd. Efallai rhywbeth ichi feddwl amdano wrth edrych ar gynseiliau rhyngwladol ydy: rydym ni, ers adroddiad Hughes-Parry 1965, wedi pwysleisio'r angen am bolisi cenedlaethol ac am gynllun cenedlaethol, ac am ymagwedd genedlaethol. Efallai ein bod ni'n dod i'r fan lle mae'n rhaid edrych yn fwy manwl ar y sefyllfaoedd mewn rhanbarthau penodol o Gymru. Nid ydy'r her yng Nghaerfyrddin yr un fath â'r her yn Abertawe neu'r her yn Y Bala, ac mae angen bod yna ymagwedd fwy lleol. Efallai mai dyma un o'r gwersi. Mae peryg ein bod ni'n canolbwyntio gormod ar gyfnewid comisiynydd am gomisiwn sydd, yn olwg y bobl yna yn lleol, yn rhywbeth digon tebyg, sef, rhywbeth sy'n digwydd yng Nghaerdydd, a bod angen grymuso'r cyrff lleol yma i gael mwy o ddylanwad a mwy o reolaeth dros yr hyrwyddo a datblygiadau lleol—nhw sydd nabod eu hardaloedd. Beth sy'n mynd i wneud gwahaniaeth i'r iaith Gymraeg ym Mhontyberem a Rhydaman a'r llefydd yma? Dyma'r llefydd lle mae'r iaith o dan warchae. Ymagwedd ddatganoledig, efallai, i gynllunio ieithyddol: mae hynny'n rhywbeth y hoffwn i'w weld yn cael ei ystyried, a bod ymchwil yn digwydd, wrth gwrs, mwy sylweddol i'r math yna o ffordd o fynd ati.

Fe fuoch chi'n sôn am y diffyg hyrwyddo, efallai, ar lefel lleol—bod yna safonau neu hawliau yn cael eu creu, ond efallai nad oes yna ddigon o berchnogaeth o'r rhain yn digwydd ar y lefel yna, y lefel allweddol yna, lle mae newid yn y shifft ieithyddol yn digwydd.

Well, just to say that I would encourage you to do that. There are a number of things that could be done.

Before I respond to the specifics, I think many people across the world—one meets them in conferences and so on—see Wales as an exemplar. There are very many good things happening in Wales, so let's not become too negative because we are airing these issues today. We can be very proud of much of what is happening in Wales, but what we need to see is: how do we—? In a position where the Welsh language is a minority language in any community, then how do you deal with that? If you look at French in Canada, the situation of French varies significantly because of the percentages speaking the language in any given area. The situation in Quebec is very different to New Brunswick, for example. Then the interventions required very often depend on that given situation, and something for you to think about, perhaps, in looking at international precedents is: since the Hughes-Parry report of 1965, we have emphasised the need for a national policy and national planning and a national approach, and perhaps we are now reaching a point where we have to look in more detail at situations in specific regions of Wales. The challenge in Carmarthen is not the same as the challenge in Swansea or the challenge in Bala, and we need a more localised approach. Perhaps this is one of the lessons to be learned. There is a risk that we focus too much on changing a commissioner for a commission that, in the eyes of those people at a local level, is very similar. It's just something that's happening in Cardiff. We need to empower these local organisations to have more of an influence and more control over that promotion and the local development, because it's they who know their areas. What will make a difference to the Welsh language in Pontyberem and Ammanford and these areas? These are the areas where the language is under siege, and it's perhaps a devolved approach to language planning that we need, and it's something that I would like to see being considered, and that there should be some research into that kind of approach.

Now, you mentioned a lack of promotion at a local level—that standards or rights are created but that there hasn't been sufficient ownership of these at this crucial local level where there could be that language shift happening.

Jest i orffen, a oes barn gyda chi ynglŷn â'r cyd-destun rhyngwladol? Achos mae'r amser wedi mynd yn brin.

Just to finish, do you have a view on the international context? Time is short.

Na, nac oes; nid oes arbenigedd gyda fi o gwbl. Rydw i'n gwybod bod Colegau Cymru yn mynd allan i'r gwledydd lleiafrifol i edrych, so mae gennym ni lot o waith ymchwil yr ydym ni wedi'i wneud yn y meysydd yna y gallem ni rhannu efo chi, yn hynny o beth.

No; I don't have any expertise in that. I know that Colegau Cymru does go out to these minority countries, so we do have a lot of research work that we've done in this area that we could share with you, to that extent.

Byddai hynny yn help mawr inni, achos rydw i'n credu bod yna symudiad inni fynd i weld rhywbeth yng Ngwlad y Basg, efallai, os yw hynny yn cael ei gymeradwyo, ac felly byddem gennym ni—

That would be a great help to us, because I think there is a move for us to go and see something perhaps in the Basque Country, if that is approved, and therefore we'd be interested to look at that.

Gwnaf drefnu rhannu hynny.

I will arrange for that to be shared.

—diddordeb i edrych ar hynny. Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am ddod mewn. Os oes yna wybodaeth ychwanegol yr ydych am rannu gyda ni, plîs ysgrifennwch atom ni. Mae amser wedi mynd ar goll y bore yma. Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod mewn atom ni heddiw.

Thank you very much for coming in. If there's any additional information that you'd like to share with us, please write to us. Time has beaten us this morning, so thank you very much for attending today.

Diolch.

Thank you.

11:30

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:30 ac 11:33.

The meeting adjourned between 11:30 and 11:33.

4. Cefnogi a hybu'r Gymraeg: Ymchwiliad i'r cyd-destun deddfwriaethol a pholisi ac yn ehangach: Sesiwn dystiolaeth 6
4. Supporting and promoting the Welsh language: An inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 6

Diolch yn fawr iawn a chroeso i'r pwyllgor. Eitem 4, cefnogi a hybu'r Gymraeg: ymchwiliad i'r cyd-destun deddfwriaethol. Croeso i Dr Ioan Matthews, prif weithredwr Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, Rebecca Williams, sef dirprwy ysgrifennydd cyffredinol a swyddog polisi, UCAC, ac wedyn Dr Gwenllian Lansdown Davies, sef prif weithredwr Mudiad Meithrin. Croeso ichi am ddod atom heddiw.

Fel arfer, mae gennym gwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol, felly awn ni yn syth i gwestiynau, os mae hynny'n iawn gyda chi. Mae David Melding am gychwyn gyda'r cwestiynau.

Thank you very much. Welcome to the committee. Item 4, supporting and promoting the Welsh language: an inquiry into the legislative policy and wider context. Welcome to Dr Ioan Matthews, chief executive of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, Rebecca Williams, deputy general secretary and policy officer, UCAC, and Dr Gwenllian Lansdown Davies, chief executive of Mudiad Meithrin. Welcome to you all and thank you for coming in today.

As usual, we have questions based on different themes, so we'll go straight to questions, if that's okay with you, and David Melding will start.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I wonder if you could give us a view of the general context in terms of the 1993 Act and then the Measure building on that, which, in some people's views anyway, has been a significant development in terms of creating more identifiable rights.

Dr Gwenllian Lansdown Davies 11:34:33

A wyt ti eisiau i fi gychwyn? Meddwl am gryfderau a gwendidau Mesur 2011, felly, o safbwynt y cryfderau, rydw i'n credu ei bod hi'n iawn i ddweud ein bod ni wedi gweld cynnydd mewn darpariaeth gan awdurdodau lleol a chyrff cyhoeddus, ac mae yna statws gynyddol weledol o safbwynt y Gymraeg. Mae yna fframwaith cyfreithiol, cyfyng o bosibl, gyda threfniadau monitro lle mae'r safonau yn berthnasol, wrth gwrs. A'r hyn sy'n ddiddorol i'n sector ni ydy bod y cysyniad o safonau, i raddau, yn efelychu'r safonau gofynnol cenedlaethol sydd yn bodoli ym maes gofal plant. Felly, nid yw'r cysyniad o safon ynddo'i hun ddim i mi yn broblematig, achos dyna rydym ni wedi ei harfer â'i weithredu a gweld yn cael ei rheoleiddio ar lawr gwlad.

O safbwynt y gwendidau, wedyn, yn amlwg mae'r cysyniad o hawliau yn hawliau dethol. Hynny yw, nid ydyn nhw ddim yn rhai bydol neu universal. Ac, wrth gwrs, nid ydyn nhw'n mynd i'r afael â chyrff sydd â chwmpas neu gwmpawd Lloegr a Chymru, fel y Comisiwn Elusennau ac yn y blaen, a chyllid a threth. Felly, mae hynny'n peri problem i aelodau Mudiad Meithrin, oherwydd, os ydyn nhw'n dymuno cofrestru fel sefydliad corfforedig elusennol, maen nhw'n methu â gwneud hynny drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.

Ac wedyn y gwendid mwyaf, rydw i'n meddwl, ydy'r cydberthynas rhwng y Mesur a strategaeth uchelgeisiol a chlodwiw Cymraeg 2050. Nid oes gennym ni fframwaith gyfreithiol ddigon cadarn i allu diwallu gofynion o safbwynt cyrraedd y targedau uchelgeisiol yna sy'n bodoli ar gyfer y maes gofal ac addysg. Ac i raddau mae panel Aled Roberts yn mynd i'r afael â nifer o'r heriau yma o safbwynt cynlluniau strategol y Gymraeg mewn addysg, ond mae'n amlwg i mi bod yn rhaid inni symud i ffwrdd o'r syniad o fesur y galw am addysg Gymraeg, a chreu a symbylu'r galw am ofal ac addysg Gymraeg. 

Mae'r holl gwestiynau ynglŷn â Mesur a safonau hefyd yn ymwneud â hybu a hyrwyddo statws ac yn y blaen. Ac rydw i'n meddwl ei bod hi'n iawn inni ddweud bod deddfwriaeth yn gwneud gwahaniaeth, oherwydd, ers degawdau, rydym ni i gyd yn gwybod bod ysmygu'n ddrwg i ni, ond yr hyn sydd wedi gwneud gwir wahaniaeth ydy cyfyngu ar allu unigolion i ysmygu mewn mannau cyhoeddus. Felly, rydw i'n meddwl bod deddfwriaeth yn gallu bod yn yriant i newid ymddygiad. Y cwestiwn ydy: beth ydy'r gyriant yna o safbwynt cynllunio ieithyddol? Mae'n hawdd, ar un lefel, rhoi lefi ar fagiau plastig, onid ydy, ond nid yw mor amlwg i adnabod beth ydy'r peth yna sy'n gwneud y gwahaniaeth o safbwynt darbwyllo rhieni i ddewis gofal ac addysg Gymraeg i'w plant. Felly, rydw i'n meddwl bod strategaeth Cymraeg 2050 yn gosod her enfawr inni—her glodwiw ac yn un rydym ni'n sicr yn ei chefnogi—ac mae rhan o'r broblem ydy'r diffyg cyd-gynllunio, neu ddiffyg cydlyniant, sydd yn bodoli rhwng Mesur y Gymraeg a'r anghenion sy'n dod o gynllunio ar gyfer gofal plant ac addysg. 

Do you want me to start? In thinking about the strengths and weaknesses of the 2011 Measure, in terms of the strengths, I think it is right to say that we have seen progress in provision from local authorities and other public bodies, and there's an increasingly visual status for the Welsh language. There is a legal framework, a perhaps restricted legal framework, in place in terms of monitoring arrangements, where standards apply. What's interesting for our sector is that the concept of standards, to a certain extent, emulates the national standards that are already required in the area of childcare. So, the concept of a standard in and of itself isn't for me problematic, because we have been used to working to standards and seeing that regulation on the ground previously.

In terms of the weaknesses, clearly, the concept of rights is selective. These rights aren't across the board or universal. And, of course, they don't address organisations with an England-and-Wales remit, such as the Charity Commission or HMRC. So, for Mudiad Meithrin, if they want to register as a charitable corporate organisation, they can't do that through the medium of Welsh.

And I think the main weakness is the interrelation between the Measure and the ambitious and laudable Cymraeg 2050 strategy. We don't have a legal framework that is sufficiently robust to meet the needs in terms of attaining those ambitious targets that have been set in terms of both care and education. And, to a certain extent, the Aled Roberts panel is addressing many of these challenges in terms of WESPs, for example, but it's clear to me that we must move away from this concept of assessing demand for Welsh-medium education and move towards actually stimulating demand for care and education.

All of these questions around standards also relate to promotion and status and so on. I do think it's right to say that legislation is making a difference, because for decades we've all known that smoking is bad for us but what's made the real difference is to restrict individuals' ability to smoke in public places. So, I do think that legislation can be a driver for behavioural change. The question is: what is that driver from the point of view of language planning? It is easy, on one level, to place a levy on plastic bags, but it's not as easy to identify what is that one thing that will make a difference in terms of convincing parents to choose Welsh-medium care and education for their children. So, I do think that the Cymraeg 2050 challenge poses a huge challenge. It's a laudable challenge and one that we certainly support. Part of the problem is that lack of co-ordination between the Welsh language Measure and the requirements in terms of planning for childcare and education.

11:35

Rebecca, Ioan, pwy sydd—?

Rebecca, Ioan, who is—?

Mae Deddf 2011 yn gam ymlaen—wedi bod, yn sicr. Rwy'n cytuno bod rhoi statws i'r iaith—statws swyddogol—yn beth pwysig. Mae symud o gynlluniau iaith i safonau wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth, er bod yna feirniadaethau i'w gwneud ynghylch y safonau. Ond hefyd rwy'n cytuno gyda Gwenllian fod cwmpas y safonau yn broblematig yn yr ystyr nad ydyn nhw ddim yn effeithio ar nifer o gyrff, neu fathau o gyrff, fyddai'n gallu dylanwadu'n fawr ar fywydau dydd i ddydd pobl—sefydliadau'r Goron a hefyd rhannau o'r sector breifat.

Efallai y byddwn ni'n mynd i fwy o fanylder wedyn ynghylch y safonau, ond i ddod yn ôl, efallai, at un o brif egwyddorion Deddf 1993 sydd wedi ei basio wedyn i Fesur 2011, un o'r egwyddorion sylfaenol rydw i'n credu sydd yn broblematig go iawn yw'r egwyddor yma o beidio â thrin y Gymraeg yn llai ffafriol na'r Saesneg, ac mai dyna yw'r sylfaen ar gyfer popeth rydym ni'n ei wneud. Mae'n sylfaen, i gychwyn, negyddol, os liciwch chi. Hynny yw, na ddylech chi ddim trin y Gymraeg yn waeth na'r Saesneg. Ond hefyd nid yw'n cymryd i ystyriaeth y gwahaniaeth o ran statws y ddwy iaith a phŵer a grym y ddwy iaith. Hynny yw, nid yw trin y ddwy iaith yn yr un modd ddim yn mynd i wneud yr hyn sydd ei angen i hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg i gyrraedd at dargedau 2050. Y syniad yma o equality versus equity—beth sydd ei angen yw gallu rhoi rhyw sylfaen mewn deddfwriaeth sy'n caniatáu gwneud pethau o blaid y Gymraeg er mwyn unioni'r sefyllfa a chreu tir gwastad rhwng y ddwy iaith, nid eu trin nhw yn yr un modd. Hynny yw, mae gen i restr o enghreifftiau, ond mae'r Mesur Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru) 2008 yn un amlwg iawn, iawn, lle bu dim modd gwneud y Gymraeg yn rhan o'r diffiniad o 'ysgol addas agosaf', ac wedyn mae gyda chi'r math o workaround yma lle mae'n rhaid dweud bod yna ddyletswydd i hybu a hyrwyddo mynediad at addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, ond mae e'n gadael hynny at ddisgresiwn yr awdurdodau lleol. Yn y bôn, roedd e'n dod lawr i gyngor cyfreithiol nad oedd dim modd trin addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg a'r Gymraeg yn wahanol i fynediad at addysg Saesneg. Felly, rydw i'n credu bod yr egwyddor yna yn y ddeddfwriaeth yn broblematig, a byddai gallu newid hynny yn agor y drws i wneud llawer o ddaioni wrth gyrraedd at y targedau. 

The 2011 Measure has been a step forward and has given the language status—official status—which is an important issue. Moving from language schemes to standards has made a difference, even though there are criticisms to be made in terms of the standards. But also I agree with Gwenllian that the range of the standards is problematic in that they don't have an impact on a number of organisations or types of organisations that would be able to influence very much the everyday lives of people—Crown institutions and also parts of the private sector.

Perhaps we'll go into more detail in terms of the standards, but, to come back to one of the main principles of the 1993 Act that's then been passed on to the 2011 Measure, one of the basic principles, I think, that is problematic really is this principle of not treating the Welsh language less favourably than English, and that that is the basis for everything we do. It is a basis, first of all, that is negative. That is, you shouldn't treat the Welsh language worse than English. But also it doesn't consider the difference in terms of the status of both languages and the power and force of both languages. That is, treating both languages is in the same way is not going to do what is required to promote the Welsh language to reach the 2050 targets. This idea of equality versus equity—what is needed is to provide some sort of statutory basis that allows things to be done in favour of the Welsh language to align the situation and to create a level playing field, not to treat them in the same way. I have a list of examples, but the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 is a very clear one, where there was no means of making the Welsh language part of the definition of 'closest suitable school', and then you had this workaround where you had to say there was a duty to promote access to Welsh-medium education, but it leaves that to the discretion of local authorities. Essentially, it came down to legal advice that there was no way of treating Welsh-medium education and the Welsh language differently to access to English-medium education. So, I think that principle in the legislation is problematic, and being able to change that would open the door to make much more progress in terms of reaching the targets. 

11:40

Rwy'n credu, yn y lle cyntaf, mae'n eithaf cynnar i farnu beth yw effaith deddfwriaeth 2011. Mae'n wir fod y broses o gyflwyno'r safonau wedi bod yn un sydd wedi cymryd mwy o amser nag y byddai llawer o bobl wed rhagweld, ond mae e wedi golygu bod sefydliadau wedi gorfod rhoi sylw i gynllunio'r gweithlu ac wedi gorfod rhoi mwy o sylw i anghenion y Gymraeg oddi mewn i'w sefydliadau nhw. 

O ran y prifysgolion, a nawr ein gwaith ni fel sefydliad yn y sector addysg bellach hefyd, rŷm ni yn gweld bod yna gamau ymlaen wedi bod o ran sut mae'r Gymraeg yn cael ei hystyried o ran gweinyddiaeth ac o ran gwasanaethau yn y colegau a'r prifysgolion. Mae'r ymgyrch 'Mae gen i hawl' hefyd wedi rhoi cryn dipyn o hwb i'r cysyniad bod gan myfyrwyr yr hawl i gyflwyno'u gwaith yn y Gymraeg, a hefyd yr hawl i gael eu hasesu yn y Gymraeg, a hefyd bod rhaid i sefydliadau roi sylw i'r Gymraeg os ydyn nhw'n ailddilysu eu darpariaeth. Felly, mae yna gamau pwysig ymlaen wedi digwydd. 

Fe fyddwn i'n cytuno bod yna le hefyd i ddiwygio rhywfaint ar y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol, ond un rhan yn unig, wrth gwrs, o'r fframwaith yw deddfwriaeth. Fel sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn barod, mae strategaeth iaith 2050 yn hynod uchelgeisiol, ac mae yna rywfaint o bryder bod rhoi gormod o sylw i'r materion yma yn mynd i dynnu oddi ar rai o'r blaenoriaethau eraill. Mae yna angen am ddeddfwriaeth mewn perthynas ag addysg Gymraeg, er enghraifft, mewn perthynas â rhoi sail statudol i'r cynlluniau addysg sirol. Rwy'n deall bod yna gynlluniau ar y gweill i gryfhau'r rheini yn sylweddol. Mae yna oblygiadau, wedyn, i holl strwythur hyfforddi athrawon a datblygu gweithlu ym maes addysg. Ac felly, rwy'n credu, er mor bwysig yw cael strwythur y safonau ac ati yn iawn, mae yna hefyd nifer o gamau eraill sydd angen eu cymryd yn gymharol fuan os oes yna dargedau uchelgeisiol yn mynd i gael eu cyrraedd mewn 10, 15 mlynedd.  

I think, first of all, it's quite early to decide on the impact of the 2011 Measure. It's true to say that the process of introducing standards is one that's taken more time than many people would have anticipated, but it has meant that institutions and organisations have had to address workforce planning and have had to pay greater attention to the requirements of the Welsh language within their organisations.

In terms of the universities and our work within FE as well, we do see that some progress has been made in terms of how the Welsh language is taken into account in terms of administration and services within colleges and universities. The 'My language rights' campaign has given quite a boost to the concept that students do have a right to present their work through the medium of Welsh, and also have the right to receive assessment through the medium of Welsh, and also that institutions have to give attention to the Welsh language when they re-evaluate their provision. So, some important forward steps have been taken.

I would agree that there is also scope to amend the current legislation, but the legislation is only one part of the framework, of course. As has already been said, the Cymraeg 2050 strategy is extremely ambitious, and there is some concern that giving too much emphasis to these issues will detract from some  of the other priorities. There is a need for legislation in terms of Welsh-medium education, for example, and in relation to putting the WESPs on a statutory basis. I understand that there are plans to strengthen those significantly. There will then be implications for the whole structure of teacher training and workforce development in education. And so, I feel, despite the importance of having this structure of standards and getting that right, there are also a number of other steps that need to be taken relatively soon if ambitious targets are going to be reached in 10, 15 years. 

I think those are very interesting answers that have covered a lot of the ground that I would have pursued if I'd needed to, but I think it's important for the committee to hear about how the strategy for 2050 may need a more obvious legislative underpinning.

I was interested in something in the evidence that you referred to, Rebecca, and that's that, currently, in terms of the Welsh Government and the Assembly's legislative programme, there's a feeling that, 'Well, we've got the measure so we don't need to address, in a host of legislative instruments, as they go through, the Welsh language', and you just referred to the Measure. How big a factor do you think that is in terms of restricting the normalisation, really, isn't it, of Welsh in Wales, whichis in no way different from or disadvantaged compared to English? 

11:45

Rydw i'n credu bod yna ragdybiaeth nawr fod y safonau'n gwneud popeth sydd angen ei wneud, sydd yn bell iawn o fod yn wir. Hynny yw, mae yna rôl bwysig iawn i’r safonau hyd y maen nhw’n mynd, ond yr enghraifft roddais i yn y dystiolaeth oedd yng nghyd-destun Deddf Anghenion Dysgu Ychwanegol a’r Tribiwnlys Addysg (Cymru) 2018, a bu’n rhaid inni gael dadl, wir, â gweision sifil i ddweud nad yw’r safonau yn cwmpasu ysgolion. Maen nhw’n cwmpasu awdurdodau lleol a rhai o gyfrifoldebau awdurdodau lleol, ond fel mae’n digwydd, nid y cyfrifoldebau rŷm ni’n eu trafod fan hyn. Felly, roedd yna ragdybiaeth nad oedd angen cymalau yn y ddeddfwriaeth anghenion dysgu ychwanegol mewn perthynas â sicrhau bod rhai pethau yn digwydd drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg neu fod hawl i’w cael nhw drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac roedd hynny’n rhagdybiaeth anghywir.

Rydw i'n credu bod yna beryg, wedyn, ein bod ni’n gorffwys gormod ar y teimlad braf bod safonau’n yn eu lle heb gwestiynu digon beth yw eu hyd a’u lled nhw, a hefyd fod hyn i gyd yn cyfiawnhau hefyd a phwyntio i gyfeiriad yr angen am rai elfennau statudol deddfwriaethol mewn perthynas â byd addysg, oherwydd nid yw’r safonau yn wir yn gwneud yr hyn sydd angen ei wneud.

I think there is a preconception now that the standards are doing everything that needs to be done, which is very far from being true. That is, yes, they have a very important role, as far as they go, but the example I gave in the evidence was in the context of the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018, and we had to argue, really, with the civil servants to say that the standards don’t encompass schools. They do encompass local authorities and some of their responsibilities, but not the responsibilities that we are discussing here. So, there was this preconception that there was no need for clauses in this Act in terms of ensuring that some things were happening through the medium of Welsh or that there was a right to receive them through the medium of Welsh, and that preconception was wrong.

I think there is a danger, then, that we rely too much on this feeling that standards are in place without questioning enough what their length and breadth are and also that all of this justifies and points in the direction of the need for some statutory legislative elements in relation to education, because the standards don’t really relate to what needs to be done.

Dr Gwenllian Lansdown Davies 11:46:29

Dyna esiampl yr oeddwn i'n mynd i'w defnyddio, a dweud bod Mudiad Meithrin ac UCAC wedi cydweithio ar rai o ragdybiaethau anghywir y gwasanaeth sifil wrth lunio deddfwriaeth yn ymwneud â hawl plentyn i wasanaeth pan fo ganddo anghenion dysgu ychwanegol. 

Ond rydw i'n meddwl hefyd fod rhaid inni edrych ar yr amodau sydd yn galluogi hawl i fodoli. Hynny yw, mae hawliau, wrth gwrs, yn bwysig—fedrwn ni ddim eu cymryd nhw’n ganiataol—ond cyfyng fyddan nhw os nad oes yna ddarpariaeth llawr gwlad ar gael, oherwydd mae’n hawdd dweud wrth riant, ‘O, mae gennych chi hawl i yrru'ch plentyn am awr a hanner ar fws i fynd i ysgol Gymraeg; felly, mae gennych chi hawl i addysg Gymraeg’, ond mewn gwirionedd, darpariaeth llawr gwlad yn lleol sydd ei angen er mwyn galluogi pobl, yn rhieni ac yn ofalwyr, i allu ar