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Y Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol

Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee

08/10/2018

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Dai Lloyd AM Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Dros Dro
Temporary Committee Chair
Lee Waters AM
Mandy Jones AM

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a oedd yn bresennol

National Assembly for Wales Officials in Attendance

Alys Thomas Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Gareth Howells Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Mike Lewis Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
P Gareth Williams Clerc
Clerk
Sarah Sargent Ail Glerc
Second Clerk
Stephen Davies Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 14:30.

The meeting began at 14:30.

Ethol Cadeirydd dros dro
Election of a temporary Chair

Good afternoon and welcome to today's meeting of the Constitutional—[Inaudible.]. 

Are there—[Inaudible.]

Penodwyd Dai Lloyd yn Gadeirydd dros dro.

Dai Lloyd was appointed temporary Chair.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datganiadau o fuddiant
1. Introduction, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Diolch yn fawr i’r clerc. A allaf i ddiolch, hefyd, i'm cyd-Aelodau am eu hyder ynof fi fel Cadeirydd dros dro, am y prynhawn yma, o’r Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol yma yng Nghynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru?

O dan eitem 1, gallaf i ddatgan os bydd yna larwm tân yn canu, dylai Aelodau adael yr ystafell drwy allanfeydd tân yn dilyn cyfarwyddiadau gan y tywyswyr a’r staff, ac nad ydym yn disgwyl ymarfer larwm tân y prynhawn yma. Rhaid sicrhau bod pob dyfais symudol yn dawel. Fel bydd pawb yn gwybod, mae Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’n gweithredu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a’r Saesneg, ac mae clustffonau ar gael i dderbyn gwasanaeth cyfieithu ar y pryd. Gellir hefyd eu defnyddio i addasu’r sain i’r rhai sy’n drwm eu clyw. Peidiwch â chyffwrdd â’r botymau ar y meicroffonau, oherwydd gall hyn amharu ar y system darlledu, a sicrhewch fod y golau coch yn dangos cyn ichi siarad. Mae cyfieithu ar y pryd ar gael ar sianel 1 ac mae’r iaith sy’n cael ei siarad ar sianel 2.

Fel y crybwyllwyd eisoes, rydym ni wedi derbyn ymddiheuriadau oddi wrth Mick Antoniw a hefyd, rydym wedi derbyn ymddiheuriadau oddi wrth Dawn Bowden. Mae Suzy Davies, yn ei rôl fel Comisiynydd y Cynulliad, yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus y prynhawn yma, ac efallai y bydd hi’n ymuno â ni ychydig yn hwyrach. 

I thank the clerk. May I thank my fellow Members for their confidence in me as temporary Chair, for this afternoon, of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee at the National Assembly for Wales?

Under item 1, I should say that, in the event of a fire alarm, Members should leave the room by the marked fire exits and follow the instructions of ushers and staff, and we're not expecting a fire drill this afternoon. Please ensure that all mobile devices are switched to silent. As everyone knows, the National Assembly for Wales operates through the medium of both Welsh and English, and headphones are available for simultaneous interpretation. They can also be used for amplification. Don't touch the buttons on the microphones because this can disable the system, and please ensure that the red light is showing before you speak. Interpretation is available on channel 1 and the floor feed is available on channel 2

As has already been mentioned, we've received apologies from Mick Antoniw and we've also received an apology from Dawn Bowden. Suzy Davies, in her capacity as Assembly Commissioner, is attending the Public Accounts Committee this afternoon and she may join us a little later on.

2. Offerynnau nad ydynt yn cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 na 21.3
2. Instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

Gyda chymaint â hynny o ragymadrodd felly, symudwn ni ymlaen at eitem 2 ac offerynnau nad ydynt yn cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 na 21.3. Offerynnau'r weithdrefn penderfyniad negyddol, eitem 2.1: SL(5)258—Rheoliadau Traffordd yr M4 (Ffyrdd Ymadael tua'r Dwyrain a'r Gorllewin wrth Gyffordd 28 (Cyfnewidfa Parc Tredegar), Casnewydd) (Terfyn Cyflymder 40 MYA) 2018. Byddwch chi wedi nodi'r papur. Mae yna adroddiad clir.

Mae'r rheoliadau hyn yn gosod terfyn cyflymder uchaf o 40 mya yn lle'r terfyn cyflymder cyffredinol o 70 mya a osodir ar draffig gan Reoliadau Traffig Traffyrdd (Terfyn Cyflymder) 1974 ar hyd ffyrdd ymadael â'r M4 a nodir yn yr atodlen i'r rheoliadau hyn. Gallai'r rheoliadau hyn hefyd ddiwygio Rheoliadau Traffordd yr M4 (Man i’r Gorllewin o Gyffordd 23A (Magwyr) i Fan i’r Dwyrain o Gyffordd 29 (Cas-bach)) (Terfynau Cyflymder Amrywiadwy) 2015. Effaith y newid yw tynnu darn bach o hyd y ffordd ymadael tua'r gorllewin wrth gyffordd yr M4 o ran o'r ffordd sy'n destun y cyfyngu ar gyflymder amrywiol. Mae terfyn cyflymder uchaf o 40 mya yn berthnasol i'r darn hwnnw o'r ffordd ymadael o dan y rheoliadau yna. Dyna beth yw pwrpas y weithdrefn. A ydy un o'r cyfreithwyr eisiau gwneud sylw? Maen nhw'n hapus. Mae'r Aelodau hefyd yn hapus. 

With those few words of preamble, we will move on to item 2, instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. Negative resolution instruments, item 2.1: SL(5)258—The M4 Motorway (Eastbound and Westbound Exit Slip Roads at Junction 28 (Tredegar Park Interchange), Newport) (40 MPH Speed Limit) Regulations 2018. You will have noted the paper. There is a clear report there.

These regulations set a maximum speed of 40 mph rather than the general speed limit of 70 mph imposed on traffic under the Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974 along the length of the M4 motorway slip specified in the schedule to these regulations. These regulations also amend the M4 Motorway (West of Junction 23A (Magor) to East of Junction 29 (Castleton)) (Variable Speed Limits) Regulations 2015. The effect of the amendment is to remove a small length of the westbound off-slip road at the junction of the M4 for the maximum section of the road that is subject to a variable speed limit. A maximum speed of 40 mph applies to that length of slip road under those regulations. So, that's the purpose of these regulations. Does any one of our lawyers wish to comment? They are content. Members are also content.

Mae pawb yn fodlon. Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi.

Everyone seems to be content. Thank you very much.

3. Offerynnau sy'n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i’r Cynulliad o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3
3. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Assembly under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

Symudwn ni ymlaen, felly, at eitem 3: offerynnau sy'n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i’r Cynulliad o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3. Offerynnau'r weithdrefn penderfyniad negyddol, eitem 3.1: SL(5)257—Rheoliadau Meysydd Tref a Phentref (Datganiadau Perchnogion Tir) (Cymru) 2018. Mi fyddwch chi wedi gweld yr adroddiad, y rheoliadau a'r memorandwm esboniadol. Fel cefndir, caniateir i dir gael ei gofrestru fel maes tref neu bentref o dan yr amgylchiadau a bennir yn adran 15 o Ddeddf Tiroedd Comin 2006. Un o nodweddion pob un o’r amgylchiadau hynny yw bod rhaid bod nifer sylweddol o drigolion unrhyw ardal leol, neu unrhyw gymdogaeth o fewn ardal leol, wedi cymryd rhan mewn chwaraeon a gweithgareddau hamdden cyfreithlon drwy hawl ar y tir o dan sylw am gyfnod o 20 mlynedd o leiaf.

Mae adran 15A(1) o Ddeddf 2006 yn caniatáu i berchennog tir o'r fath adneuo datganiad gyda'r awdurdod cofrestru tiroedd comin, ac effaith hyn yw dwyn i ben unrhyw gyfnod lle mae personau wedi cymryd rhan mewn chwaraeon a gweithgareddau hamdden cyfreithlon trwy hawl ar y tir y mae'r datganiad yn ymwneud ag ef. Rhaid i fap fynd gyda'r datganiad. Mae'r rheoliadau hyn yn gwneud darpariaeth mewn cysylltiad ag adneuo datganiad o dan adran 15A(1) o Ddeddf 2006 a materion cysylltiedig. Nodwyd un pwynt i'w gyflwyno adroddiad arno dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 mewn perthynas â'r offeryn hwn, a nodwyd pwynt pellach mewn perthynas â Rheol Sefydlog 21.3. Gwahoddwn y cyfreithiwr i wneud sylw.

We'll move on, therefore, to item 3: instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Assembly under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. Negative resolution instruments, item 3.1: SL(5)257—The Town and Village Greens (Landowner Statements) (Wales) Regulations 2018. You will have read the report and the regulations, as well as the explanatory memorandum. As background to this, land may be registered as a town or village green in the circumstances specified in section 15 of the Commons Act 2006. A characteristic of each of those circumstances is that a significant number of the inhabitants of any locality, or of any neighbourhood within a locality, must have indulged as of right in lawful sports and pastimes on the land in question for a period of at least 20 years. 

Section 15A(1) of the 2006 Act permits the owner of such land to deposit with the commons registration authority a statement, the effect of which is to bring to an end any period during which persons have indulged as of right in lawful sports and pastimes on the land to which the statement relates. A statement must be accompanied by a map. These regulations make provision in respect of the deposit of a statement under section 15A(1) of the 2006 Act and associated matters. One point has been identified for reporting under Standing Order 21.2 in respect of this instrument, and a further point has been identified in respect of Standing Order 21.3. I invite the lawyer to comment.

14:35

Diolch. These regulations raise an issue around the content of public registers. The regulations set out the information that landowners must send to commons registration authorities when the landowner wishes to bring an end to any period where people have been using village greens or town greens for sports and pastimes. That statement must include the name, address, telephone number and e-mail address of the landowner. Then that statement, including the address, telephone number, e-mail address, must be included on the public register.

This raises privacy concerns because, where the landowner is only able to supply a home address, a home telephone number or a personal e-mail address, then that private information will be publicly available on this public register. That's an interference with privacy rights under article 8 of the European convention on human rights. Article 8 privacy rights are qualified rights, meaning that interference with them can be justified. We asked the Welsh Government to justify the interference with these privacy rights in this case. The Welsh Government response is set out on pack page 4, where the Welsh Government accepts the point and promises to make another set of regulations to amend these regulations as soon as is practicable. There's no explanation as to what will be done in those amending regulations, and no promise to do this by 22 October, which is when these regulations actually come into force. And the draft report also picks up on some uncertainties in the consultation summary.

Diolch, Gareth. Unrhyw sylw?

Thank you, Gareth. Any comments?

Once they're amended, do you anticipate their identity will still be revealed, just not their contact details?

We don't know what solution the Welsh Government will propose to get around these privacy issues, whether it be limited personal information that will be available, or no information at all and you go through the local authority or the commons registration authority; we don't know. There's no further detail as to what solution is proposed or by when it would be implemented.

Will this information be available to us after it's brought through the 22 October date?

Yes. If nothing changes, yes.

Refusing these particular regulations? So, this policy change, which is summarised briefly in the report, and our merits point noting this conflict between planning policy and protecting village greens, the conflict here that arises—it would simply delay the policy change set out in these regulations.

The usual course would be to note the legal comment and await the response from Welsh Government.

The instrument is a negative instrument, so if the Members would wish to seek a debate on it on the floor of the Senedd then they would have to table a motion to annul.

We've had the Government say they are going to change these.

Yes, but no information as to what they're going to do and by when.

Right. So, can we pass this, or note the legal comments, in the full expectation that Welsh Government will provide us with the relevant information by 22 October?

We could write. We could draft a letter for the Chair to sign off to send to the Welsh Government to seek their clarification about when this change would be undertaken and what that change is likely to entail.

Could we defer for a week until we have that information? It's just poor practice for the Government to expect us to sign a blank cheque like this, isn't it?

We would have to double check. We have 20 days in which to report, and I'll get back to Members with that information this afternoon.

The 40 days of annulment end around 3 November, I think. So, that's when the debate would have to be—

On the point of substance, I'm ambivalent. I can accept an argument either way. But I think it's poor of the Government just to not treat us properly, in giving us a clear explanation of what they plan to do.

14:40

That's a fair point. Okay, if we can do that. Okay.

Any other comments about—? Happy on that?

4. Papurau i'w nodi
4. Papers to note

Rydym ni wedi cyrraedd eitem 4, papurau i'w nodi. Eitem 4.1 a phapur 5, llythyr gan arweinydd y tŷ, 2 Hydref 2018. Mae'r llythyr dyddiedig 2 Hydref gan Arweinydd y Tŷ a'r Prif Chwip yn ymwneud â chraffu ar reoliadau a wnaed o dan Ddeddf yr Undeb Ewropeaidd (Ymadael) 2018 a'r newidiadau diweddar i'r Rheolau Sefydlog. Rydych chi wedi ei ddarllen e. Unrhyw sylw neu jest nodi'r llythyr yna?

Okay, that brings us to item 4, papers to note. So, that's item 4.1, paper 5, a letter from the leader of the house dated 2 October 2018. The 2 October letter from the Leader of the House and Chief Whip relates to the scrutiny of regulations made under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and recent changes to Standing Orders. You will have read the letter. Any comments? Shall we note that?

Na. Gwnawn ni nodi'r llythyr â diolch.

We'll note that with thanks.

5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Rŷm ni'n symud ymlaen at eitem 5, a chynnig o dan Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) i benderfynu cyfarfod yn breifat. A yw pawb yn gytûn?

That brings us to item 5, which is a motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to meet in private. Everyone agreed?

Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen, felly, i gyfarfod yn breifat. Diolch yn fawr.

We'll move on, therefore, into private session. Thank you.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 14:41.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 14:41.

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