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Y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Gofal Cymdeithasol a Chwaraeon

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

08/02/2018

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Angela Burns AM
Caroline Jones AM
Dai Lloyd AM Cadeirydd
Chair
Dawn Bowden AM
Jayne Bryant AM
Julie Morgan AM
Lynne Neagle AM
Rhun ap Iorwerth AM

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Ray Williams Holyhead & Anglesey Weightlifting and Fitness Centre
Holyhead & Anglesey Weightlifting and Fitness Centre

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a oedd yn bresennol

National Assembly for Wales Officials in Attendance

Amy Clifton Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Claire Morris Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Sarah Sargent Ail Glerc
Second Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 10:30.

The meeting began at 10:30.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Croeso i bawb i gyfarfod diweddaraf y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Gofal Cymdeithasol a Chwaraeon yma yng Nghynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. A allaf estyn croeso cynnes yn gyntaf i fy nghyd-Aelodau? Nid ydym wedi derbyn unrhyw ymddiheuriadau y bore yma, ac felly rydym yn disgwyl i bawb fod yn bresennol. Ac a allaf bellach egluro bod y cyfarfod yma yn ddwyieithog? Gellir defnyddio clustffonau i glywed cyfieithu ar y pryd o'r Gymraeg i'r Saesneg ar sianel 1, neu i glywed cyfraniadau yn yr iaith wreiddiol yn well ar sianel 2. A gallaf bellach atgoffa pobl i ddiffodd eu ffonau symudol ac unrhyw offer electronig arall a allai ymyrryd â'r offer darlledu, a hefyd hysbysu pobl y dylem ni ddilyn cyfarwyddiadau'r tywyswyr os bydd larwm tân yn canu.

Welcome everyone to the latest meeting of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee here at the National Assembly for Wales. I would like to extend a warm welcome to my fellow Members. We have not received any apologies this morning, so we expect everyone to be in attendance. This, of course, is a bilingual meeting. You can use the headphones to hear interpretation from Welsh to English on channel 1, or amplification on channel 2. I would also like to remind people to switch off their mobiles and any electronic equipment that could interfere with the broadcasting equipment, and also to inform people that we should follow the ushers if there is a fire alarm. 

2. Ymchwiliad i weithgaredd corfforol ymhlith plant a phobl ifanc - sesiwn dystiolaeth 1 - Ray Williams
2. Inquiry into physical activity of children and young people - evidence session 1 - Ray Williams

Gyda gymaint â hynny o ragymadrodd o dan eitem 1, fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen i eitem 2, a pharhau efo'n hymchwiliad fel pwyllgor i weithgarwch corfforol ymhlith plant a phobl ifanc. Sesiwn dystiolaeth Rhif 1, ac yn fan hyn, yn y cnawd, felly, ac rwy'n croesawu—Ray Williams i'n plith. Mae Ray Williams o Ganolfan Codi Pwysau a Ffitrwydd Caergybi ac Ynys Môn. Croeso i chi. Ac mae gyda ni res o gwestiynau wedi'u paratoi. Maen nhw'n hawdd yn y lle cyntaf, a hefyd yn weddol gyffredinol, ac wedyn bydd digon o amser i chi esbonio eich teimladau ynglŷn â'r pwnc, ac mae gyda ni rhyw dri chwarter awr. Ac felly mi wnawn ni ddechrau efo Rhun yn gyntaf. 

With those few words under item 1, we'll move on to item 2 and the continuation of our inquiry as a committee into the physical activity of children and young people. This is the first evidence session, and here, in the flesh as it were, and I welcome—Ray Williams. Ray Williams is from Holyhead and Anglesey Weightlifting and Fitness Centre. Welcome to you. We have a series of questions prepared for you. They are easy to start with, but also quite general in nature, so there'll be plenty of opportunity for you to explain your feelings about this topic, and we have about three quarters of an hour. So, we'll start with Rhun first. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you very much. It's good to have you with us here this morning, and you bring a number of different angles to what we're looking at. You come as an elite sportsman, as somebody who's involved with the promotion of sport and physical activity within your community, and specifically working with young people on Anglesey. Could you just give us an overview, first of all, of the kind of work that you do to try to increase physical activity amongst young people on Anglesey, or beyond?

Absolutely. Well, thanks, first of all, for inviting me to come and speak. If I can give you just an overview of myself, then I think it will lead into some of the questions that might come a bit later. So, for 24 years, from 1979 to 2003, I was a serving soldier, and in that time, through 1996 to 1999, I was interfacing more with young people who were joining the army, and I put together a course training package over 48 weeks to look after what was the rebirth of the junior army in Harrogate. So, that is the area of specificity that I have with young people that I then brought forward into civvy street, as it were, in 2003. Obviously, I was a sportsman from 1971 in Holyhead High School, and that culminated in a gold medal in Edinburgh in 1986, and I am currently the national weightlifting coach, taking the team to the Gold Coast and hoping that the dragon will fly for one or two of us. 

But more specifically to the nature of today's questions, I think that when I came out, I noticed that, from leaving, what I would say, civvy street in 1979, and coming back in 2003, the problem was pandemic with what I saw in young people, especially in deprived areas like Holyhead, I would say. And a couple of the kids came up to me and asked me if I would start coaching with weightlifting. And what I did was that I took it on myself, probably, to get some funding for HAWFC, which took about four years. And over those four years, we secured about £300,000-worth of funds. And we put a social enterprise company on a greenfield site in Millbank, which is in one of the Communities First areas, and it's been nothing less than an astronomical success. It's affordable to all, and people are there from the age of six to 72. And like I said earlier, it was a 72-year-old who did a million metre Concept2 challenge the other day.

So, fitness is fantastic, but with youngsters, I have an academy there every day at 3.15 p.m. til 4.30 p.m., and we provide—. I think it costs them £4 a week and they can come there five times a week. And what we do is we provide bespoke fitness. If somebody needs some cardiac help rather than strength and conditioning, we can do that. So, with the two fully-employed instructors, we are doing a good job on Anglesey on a micro level—and I think a model that could be looked at to be delivered or stuck on as an annex to most comprehensive schools in Wales and be a success.

10:35

What's the difference between the young person who does come to your gym at 3.15 p.m. and the one that doesn't? What's driven the young person who does want to take his or her fitness seriously to come through your door?

I think you're always going to get a large cohort of people interested through family and whatever to want to do fitness, but it's obviously not them who we're after—we're after the, whatever, the 30 per cent or 40 per cent of people who are now overweight and obese before they start secondary school. So, even at entry level, at reception level, there are three out of 10 kids now who are overweight, which is sad, but it can be sorted.

The difference is motivation, probably. A lot of kids don't like, initially, fitness. But, there again, if you've got expert people who know how to give fitness and look after them as individuals, they can flourish. There's a myriad of success stories that I could talk about for hours about just that one gym. But it's really embracing and making sure that the subject is taught properly to them to be able to catch and make them a captured audience rather than just a syllabus-driven—. I think, in secondary school, after year 10, if they don't take GCSE, they have one 40-minute lesson a week. Now, that is—. It's not good because kids need to—. The function of fitness is good—doing the squats and doing the power cleans and running—but the by-product of exercise is brilliant as well, because you feel better about yourself, with the team cohesion and all of the other varied components that go with it.

When they've been through your door the first time, do they usually stay?

Yes, in the large majority. The club is no bigger than these two rooms here, and I think the success is that it has over 1,000 members on its books. There are 21,000 visits a year there and I think there are 150 man hours for the children each week; that is within the junior academy and then, obviously, we have clubs on Saturdays and Sundays.

You've half answered it, maybe, on the motivation front, but what are the biggest barriers to young people making the decision to come?

Again, there's a myriad of reasons. I think there's a generational thing now, with the lack of fitness and sedentary lifestyles that everybody knows about—too many iPads and too much of never experiencing fitness. What I would like to see, and we could probably go on to this a bit later, is, that even at reception age, from five years of age—to start to look at changing key stage 2, where it is more mandatory for a standard to be met by youngsters.

Iawn. Dawn, efo'r cwestiynau nesaf.

Okay. Dawn, with the next questions.

Thank you, Chair. We've heard evidence about the difference in terms of gender—boys and girls getting involved in physical activity—but have you noticed that, in the area that you're working in,  you've got more boys than girls coming in?

I think there's always been an imbalance and I think that Sport Wales and the Welsh Sports Association and people are making big inroads to try to, how can I say, make parity. But there always is—. I can only speak for HAWFC, because that's where I work, but there are certainly more female members than male members in the gym in Holyhead—

Yes, yes. So, it seems to buck the trend a bit.

So, have you done anything specifically different to encourage more girls to come along?

We have mums and prams. We have young mums and they can bring their prams with them—those types of small interventions help a lot.

So, you're talking about young women rather than schoolgirls there.

Than schoolgirls, yes. But the schoolgirls come and they are just—. I think, with the schoolgirls, we probably—I haven't got the stats in front of me, but I would say that it would be 50/50. A lot of girls are more conscious now about looking fitter and being fitter than I think they were probably a decade ago.

And so that, in a sense, is what's encouraging them there, because what we've heard is, actually, that it's the body image concern that prevents young women and girls, particularly, going into fitness centres and gyms, but—

Maybe in big centres where there are lots of mirrors. There are no mirrors in—. It's a functional centre so there are only treadmills, resistance machines, but everybody has a programme written for them, I think, and I think it's that embrace as well that I think—

10:40

So, it's individual. You give them an individual programme. Right, okay. What about children from—? Because you've identified, as well, that in parts of Holyhead you've got some significantly deprived communities. What kind of response do you get, particularly, from those communities, as opposed to the more affluent communities? Have you got as many kids from that background coming in?

Speaking of Holyhead, generally, Holyhead is—. The whole town, virtually, is—. There were four Communities First wards there at one time, and I think it's now just one, but the whole town has had an economic kick with the loss of Rio Tinto and Wylfa. But the kids are generally really, really receptive, and I think they're the ones that, in an institution like school or like HAWFC, they're very compliant and fitness is a great vehicle for them to improve not only their physical fitness but their attitude as well.  

Cost is not—I mean, it gets to a point where if there is a cost issue then we won't charge them.

Okay. Okay, that's good. That's good. Okay, you talked about wanting a radical approach to fitness in Wales. What do you mean by that?

Exactly what I—. I think that there are lot of stakeholders with different component parts that make up the whole pie chart, but I think that fitness stands apart from sport as a delivery model. So, as much as, like I've said, some children don't—. A lot of people put the emphasis on people don't like fitness. Well, a lot of people probably don't like geography and English, but they have to do it, because it's a core subject. So, I firmly believe that Tanni Grey's and Laura McAllister's work looking at fitness as a core subject is critical. But when I say 'radical', I would start before that. I would start at the age of five, and I would have three mandatory lessons a week where the youngsters do fitness training. And it wouldn't be with footballs: it would be a 10-minute mobility warm-up, a 20-minute main theme, and a 10-minute cool-down. That is the way I would do it, and, by doing it at that age, by the time they're 11 and 12 it'll be like brushing their teeth. It'll be so natural to them, it'll be a part of their growing up, and I think that is the way I would approach it if somebody could sprinkle magic dust—

So, moving it away from the organised team sport type of things.

No, I wouldn't say that. I think national governing bodies could still interface with schools, yes. I think the absolute—. Like I've said: raising the pulse, shoulder girdle, core strength, leg strength. In team sports and stuff, there might be three out of 11 that are doing something—playing bat and ball, six are standing there. But, if you've got 30 in front of you, it doesn't matter how they differ—a good set of eyes can see how they train and tell somebody to slow down and stuff. But definitely have mandatory training in schools.

So, in essence, then, just giving it the priority in schools on the core curriculum.

Absolutely. Beyond that, I would—. Even at age five, six and seven, I wouldn't be frightened of calling mum and dad in at the end of the term and saying, 'Look, as well as not being able to do their eight times table, where you go home and do revision, I think it might be worth taking so-and-so swimming, or taking your youngster to more fitness training,' you know.

I don't know whether somebody else is going to ask this, actually, but, if not: do you do nutrition advice as well?

I'm not a nutritional expert, but we eat clean, and there is—. We've got two personal trainers who will look at advising people because, absolutely, nutrition is—. If something was to go further and the committee was to look at inventing change, I think that a training and development A-team, as such, would have to spend a year looking at not just the fitness but the nutrition as well. 

We can't—. We don't know what youngsters eat in the house, and we can't effect change in the house, but, within the school day, we can positively indoctrinate young people.

I'd like to ask you, please: what other practices do you see that you'd like to see rolled out across Wales to increase physical activity?

10:45

If we're looking at youngsters, it's nothing more than reiterating what I've said: I think we do something on a micro scale, I think something like the HAWFC concept as a social enterprise—which is cost-effective to local authorities, because, after the £300,000 that was the capital outlay, it has run its own business. So, there's no cost to Anglesey council, and we've paid the grant back over six years nearly two-fold as well as employing three people. So, I think HAWFC is a good social enterprise concept and I think that local authorities, in some instances, could be more embracing of that kind of concept and more empathetic about what fitness does, but I think that, if I was sitting in your chairs, I would look at rolling something out in 2020 to every primary school in Wales from the age of five. It might take a year to study it and to design the courses and to have the 10 weeks, three lessons, every term, but I would definitely put some subject matter experts together and I would look to put lesson plan 1 to lesson plan 150 over the 48 weeks and make the kids adhere to that.

Yes. You said that there's not sufficient physical activity in schools—

This is in secondary school.

In secondary school, yes. So, do you think extending the school day might be a good way to—?

I do. I think making it a core subject and doing whatever—. The pandemic is—you know, we're seeing that three out of 10 five-year-olds are obese or overweight and it leads to 60 per cent of adults—. Now, that is a crisis to me, and it's exacerbated by the cost in social care. A fit body and healthy mind—you might not live the same amount, but you'll live in a healthier body. But I think that, if I started with five-year-olds and six-year-olds, by the time they're 11, that plan could be done, and there could be one or two tiers. So, every five-year-old has to walk, twice a year, 500m, do five assisted press-ups and do five squats and five sit-ups. It ain't much. And then, at six, they do six and every age—. That is just a rough—. By the time they're 15, they're doing 1.5 miles, they're doing 15 sit-ups, they're doing 15—but also they're educating themselves as well as getting fit, and I would test it twice a year. I would have a biannual test of them and the generations now would thank you in 20 years' time for doing that, I think.

And, finally, how do you think successful local schemes can be identified and possibly rolled out nationally?

Yes, exactly. I think that there are so many good news stories that you see in pockets in Wales, and I think that collaboration—. I think Graham Williams has been employed as a community director in Sport Wales now and they're looking at north Wales. So, I think, more inter-sport, and I think local authorities and Sport Wales and the Welsh Sports Association and, probably, people like me, need to meet and look at collaboration—you know, if somebody likes doing yoga and somebody likes doing weightlifting, it's people being active, but it'd be great to have that, again, more formulated.

Or combine the two: weightlifting yoga—[Laughter.] Anyway—

2022, Birmingham. [Laughter.]

Yes, Ray, sorry, I'm quailing in front of your beady eyes here, but you're very, very strict and passionate about the fact that you believe that if we start at a very young age and make it compulsory that we can improve our long-term fitness, and, in fact, it's something that I have brought up many times in the past five years. However, the kickback I've always had has been about the compression in the school curriculum—

But that needs to change. 

—and teachers coming back, and I just wondered if you had talked, yourself, to any teachers or had any feedback, because this is a very strong view, and I just wondered if you've had any feedback on that. 

An example in a school that's not too far from me: a science teacher was away for three or four weeks so they drop PE so they can catch up on the science revision. I speak to teachers, and teachers have got—it's not an easy job, teaching, but I think that job would be easier, and I think that Estyn have to come on board. I think that—as everybody, probably, here thinks—if we have to extend a school day by an hour to put PE in before lunch and before the end of school, then that has to be manipulated somehow to happen, because if not, I think it will become just a talking shop and it can't be allowed to be that anymore. 

10:50

I do agree with you. This is something I have pressed the education Secretary on loads. I was shadow Minister for education in the last Assembly and it was something I kept pushing and pushing and pushing, because I agree with you 100 per cent. I speak from personal experience with my own children moving schools from one that did very little physical fitness to one that does a lot in the curriculum. Both of my children have lost weight, got fitter and are actually happier, healthier kids, because they've got more endorphins flying around their bodies. It's been extraordinary the change in them. So, I absolutely cleave to your philosophy, but I have to say, again, that the kickback that I had, when I was trying to suggest these ideas, from the unions, from individual teachers and from the education Secretary was just to say, 'We haven't got enough room in the curriculum, teachers don't want to do it'. I think extending the school day is a real possibility, but I really just wanted to try and flesh out from you the views that you may have received yourself.   

I've only spoken to PE teachers and they are really as aghast as we are with the precedence or the non-precedence that the subject is given in the schools. But countering that, I think there'll always be a guarded opinion of what they've got now and they probably don't want to change. I don't know. I can only speak—. In 1998, I was given a temporary manning assignment in Upavon, when I was a captain in the PT corps and I had to go and look at places where they delivered fitness. I went to Stonyhurst College, St Bees, Rossall and all the public schools and they do fitness every day. You go to a comprehensive school and they do fitness once a week. Now, a youngster probably will live 10 years less than someone who's born into privilege, and I don't care if it's Estyn or the head of education, but I would argue black and blue that unless there is a wholesale change and they embrace it then they're failing the children of Wales. 

Thank you, Chair. [Laughter.] I think you've been very clear and you spoke so powerfully about what we need to do in schools. You've answered some of the questions that I've had on that actually—

That's all right, that's no problem. I'm glad that we've got it out, because it's such an important part. But is there anything specific that you think we could be doing now? We've talked about perhaps looking at extending the school day but is there anything that we could be doing practically?    

What I would do now is I would try to form a team of experts from a variety of areas—nutrition, fitness delivery, sport—and I would have them for a year hashing out and I would pilot something for the next two or three years in a school. And I would look at that pilot and the success of that, because there would be no failure, and then I would roll it out. I would look to roll a national scheme out by 2022, but certainly have a year to look at all the course training packages and the lesson plans, and then I would look to start that in primary schools and then just let it grow.

Thank you, Chair. We know that local authorities are facing huge financial pressures. Is there anything you think they could be doing, in particular in relation to low-cost activities?  

If you look at £300,000 to produce a gym that's got 1,000 members in an area of high deprivation, I think HAWFC is a great model of that, because now it pays for itself. It's been six years and growing in numbers and the success stories are massive. They've got junior academies after school, we also look after the formal GCSE lessons for year 10 and we also look at some of the Ysgol Cybi new primary school youngsters that come there. So, something like that. If you walk around comprehensive schools—and everybody here probably walks round the comprehensive schools in their constituencies—and see the poor furnishings in most of them, it is not stimulating to young kids. Kids today want to go on treadmills. They don't want—

10:55

No. What we had in the 60s was—. You know, ex-army lads, after the war, put in six ropes, some beams. They're still there. The gyms are in disrepair. If you moved HAWFC into one of the gyms in the school, the school would become a better place. It wouldn't be much cost. If I put 10 treadmills into Holyhead school and 10 elliptical trainers and some weights—it's £50,000. You could charge the kids £1 a week to be a member of the school club, and the rolling maintenance would be done there. So, definitely it can be done. It doesn't have to be a massive cost. The myriad issues facing local authorities—. It's at crisis point. With the local authorities, I would just like to see, as somebody who is so passionate about fitness, probably a bit more empathy and a bit more of an embrace of the social enterprise model and a bit more collaboration between local authorities and people like us who—how can I say it—are meeting the priorities of the future generations Act, and we're meeting some of the priorities of Sport Wales of getting people fit. I can only speak about Anglesey, but I would just like a bit more of an embrace of what the social enterprise does in fitness.

Rhun—cwestiwn atodol.

Rhun—a supplementary question.

Very briefly, identifying good practice and rolling it out is key in most areas. Are there other social enterprise sports and fitness models out there that you've been in touch with and worked with?

At the moment, I've got 15 weightlifters who are e-mailing me every day saying they've got an aching arm or an aching trapezius muscle because I'm taking them out to the Gold Coast in a couple of weeks. There's a boxing club in Holyhead, there are people who do so much, but social enterprises are young in their inception—in fitness. But I do think that, with the Wales Co-operative Centre, who are very helpful to us, and some capital funds, something like HAWFC on the edge of every school could work.

So, if not quite every village, but every wider community has either a football club or a rugby club or a tennis club or a whatever club—it happens to be weightlifting and fitness-based in Holyhead—could that network of sports clubs be a basis for building this network around Wales? I'm thinking out loud here.

Again, going back to the point of fitness testing, I think sport is a different sort of vocation and pathway. But I think that if you look at Holyhead leisure centre, if you look at Amlwch leisure centre—I think a lot of them are getting 'PFId' now because, again, it's not a statutory obligation on local authorities, and that's another issue outside this committee. But I think that you could either look at making it statutory at that level or you could look at the other providers that could provide bespoke fitness. Like I said, with 21,000 visits in a room this big, where the kids are—you know, it's a great success. 

Y cwestiwn nesaf gan Julie Morgan.

The next question is from Julie Morgan.

Diolch. You mentioned earlier on the digital technology and what impact it's having. What do you think? Do you think it's having a major impact on the fitness of young people?

It's having a massive negative impact on the fitness of young people. I was with the teeth arms most of my military career, and I went to Catterick as a warrant officer class I, and it was the first time I'd seen youngsters for 20 years, and just seeing their posture, the lack of lumbar—the way they held themselves. Everything was anterior dominant because they're like this all the time. Kids shouldn't be allowed to have iPhones in school. This is again where I would go. Kids are coming in to do a GCSE lesson in HAWFC, but some of them are on their iPhones doing stuff. Now, that can only be distracting. I think that technology is positive in as much that, in the 70s, we knew no different and we climbed ropes, but kids now can compare what is in Cardiff and what is in Holyhead and say, 'Why are there treadmills or why is there this is London and not in Holyhead?' But I do think that technology in fitness and the equipment is definitely needed in schools, rather than the old green mats and two benches.

11:00

So, you think if there was a more modern approach in schools, that would help get people off the technology.

Absolutely, yes.

And do you think that iPhones should be banned from schools?

Absolutely, yes. Without any hesitation.

And do you think things like fitness apps or something like that could be—

Yes, they're all good. They're all twenty-first century—. They're things where kids can see evidence, as they do now. People can see evidence with their Fitbits or whatever they use, but I think those apps are absolutely beneficial to people who are participating in training, and they're heart rate monitors. Mine will be about 250 when Gareth Evans is going out to the Gold Coast on 6 April [Laughter.]

We went to Bassaleg School and I can't remember if it was to every pupil, but they gave Fitbits, didn't they, to pupils, to measure their fitness. You're using, then, in effect, their passion for all things digital and electronic as a positive encouragement.

Yes. I see nothing wrong with that. But going back to the point, I think that in 10 years' time, it would be nice for them to be tested on fitness as much as they are on maths, English and science.

Again from Bassaleg, one thing that impressed us as a committee was the assessment that was made of every pupil as they came into year 7—a fitness assessment with a report sent home to parents and an element of continuous assessment from there on in to see how little Johnny and Jane were doing.

Where is that? That's not pan Wales.

But it's left over from a national programme that used to exist.

Yes, that's right. Was it with the Welsh Rugby Union, or—?

Yes. Do you think that that's useful? Is that a model that you'd like to see being rolled out everywhere—that there is an assessment like that of everybody coming into—? I know you're talking about years 5 and 6, but this is secondary.

Yes, I think that that would be brilliant. A youngster, if they're five, could have, like I say, their little fitness passport that follows them through key stage 2, and when they go to year 7, they can see how they've progressed through the stages. So, they've done a test here, a test there, they've done this—. You could have a two or three-tiered test, so you could have a gold, silver and bronze award so that it incentivises them. I think there is a myriad of ways of doing it, but I do think that a group of individuals given 12 months to a year and then to roll something out—. But don't roll it out just in one authority; just go, 'That's what's happening' and make Estyn get on board.

Ocê. Y cwestiynau olaf o dan ofal Angela.

Okay. The final questions from Angela.

To be honest with you, I was going to ask what you think Welsh Government needs to do. Ray, you've been crystal clear. There's no way any of us are in any doubt as to (a) your commitment and passion to this and (b) your very clear sight on what we need to do and the bravery we need to have, as politicians, in order to make sure that, in 20 years' time, we do not have a complete implosion in our NHS and social care services.

If you have any other comment that you would like to make on past policies or strategies of the Welsh Government; anywhere you feel that, perhaps, we almost got there but didn't quite because of—. Or any other general comments that you'd like to make, or questions we haven't asked, I'd be really grateful to hear them.

I think I've said nearly all I wanted to. I would just say that, in the past, we've looked at, dare I say, straplines, that have said 'Everyone x by this year, look at Finland as a model'. Why not take a radical decision in Wales now so that by 2025 everybody is saying that Wales is the leading nation for young people in fitness? That can be done, but it can only be done like you said. Is it bravery, or is it just—? I think everybody has to realise the pandemic that is impacting on our young kids, and the negative effect it has, then, into adult life. Unless change is done now, I think it is a pending disaster. So, I congratulate everybody here, and I know that your will and intent is there to make it happen. If ever I could be involved, I would look to be involved to make Wales a fitter and healthier nation.

11:05

Yes. To what extent can the argument that there's no money to invest in facilities be a genuine barrier? To what extent can we say, 'This is something we'd all like to do, but, you know what, we can't afford to do it'? Can that ever be justified? 

I don't think it's a big cost, Rhun; I don't think it's a big cost. If you look at HAWFC, if you put that gym into a comprehensive school in Wales it would be a fantastic addition to their facilities—£300,000 to build it and put the kit in it. So, I don't think there is a big cost, arguably. If you were looking at putting a teacher in every primary school in Wales on circa £40,000 a year with on-costs, then it looks to be more like £30 million a year, but these are decisions that can be taken and I think need to be looked at if we're going to be serious about reducing waistlines and giving people a chance.  

Grêt, diolch yn fawr iawn. Sesiwn bendigedig, mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud, ac, ie, tystiolaeth fendigedig. Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi, Ray, ac fe fyddwch chi yn derbyn trawsgrifiad o'r cyfarfod yma i gadarnhau ei fod yn ffeithiol gywir, ond diolch yn fawr iawn—sesiwn arbennig, mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud, a gyda mwy nag un argymhelliad yn deillio o hynny. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am eich presenoldeb, a siwrnai saff yn ôl i chi. 

Thank you very much. That was a marvellous session, I must say, and marvellous evidence as well. So, thank you, Ray. You will receive a transcript of this meeting to check for factual accuracy, but thank you very much—that was a great session, I must say, and more than one recommendation will come out of that. So, thank you very much to you for your attendance, and a safe journey back. 

Thank you very much. Thanks, everyone.

3. Papurau i’w nodi
3. Paper(s) to note

O dan eitem 3 i'm cyd-Aelodau, fe fyddwch chi wedi darllen llythyr gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ynghylch cychwyn Rhan 5 o Ddeddf Iechyd Cyhoeddus (Cymru) 2017 mewn perthynas â rhoi twll mewn rhan personol o'r corff—o ddiddordeb mawr i rai ohonom mwy nag eraill, efallai.  

Under item 3 for my fellow Members, you will have read a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services regarding commencement of Part 5 of the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 in relation to intimate piercing. That's of great interest to some of you—some more than others, perhaps. 

4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod a'r cyfarfod ar 14 Chwefror yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting and the meeting on 14 February in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

O dan eitem 4, felly, cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod, ac o'r cyfarfod hefyd wythnos nesaf ar 14 Chwefror, achos ar 14 Chwefror bydd y pwyllgor yn ystyried ei adroddiad ar Fil Iechyd y Cyhoedd (Isafbris am Alcohol) (Cymru) a bydd yn trafod ei flaenraglen waith. Bydd hwnnw hefyd mewn sesiwn breifat. Felly, pawb yn gytûn? Cytûn. 

Under item 4, a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting and from the meeting next week on 14 February, because on that date the committee will consider its report on Public Health (Minimum Price for Alcohol) (Wales) Bill and also its forward work programme. That will also be in private. Is everyone in agreement? Everyone agreed.  

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:07.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 11:07.

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