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Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

14/12/2017

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed AM Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Jenny Rathbone AM
Neil Hamilton AM
Rhianon Passmore AM
Siân Gwenllian AM
Suzy Davies AM

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Huw Jones Cadeirydd, S4C
Chair, S4C
Linda Tomos Prif Weithredwr a Llyfrgellydd, Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru
Chief Executive and Librarian, National Library of Wales
Owen Evans Prif Weithredwr, S4C
Chief Executive, S4C
Pedr ap Llwyd Dirprwy Prif Weithredwr a Llyfrgellydd (Casgliadau a Rhaglenni Cyhoeddus), Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru
Deputy Chief Executive and Librarian (Collections and Public Programmes), National Library of Wales
Phil Williams Ysgrifennydd Awdurdod S4C
Secretary to the S4C Authority
Rhodri Glyn Thomas Llywydd, Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru
President, National Library of Wales

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a oedd yn bresennol

National Assembly for Wales Officials in Attendance

Adam Vaughan Ail Glerc
Second Clerk
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Steve George Clerc
Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle y mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 9:32.

The meeting began at 9:32.

1. Cyflwyniadau, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon - Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu
1. Introductions, Apologies and Substitutions - Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

Croeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu ac eitem 1, cyflwyniadau, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. A oes gan unrhyw Aelod rhywbeth i'w ddatgan yma heddiw? Siân.

Thank you, and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee and item 1, introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. Does anyone have a declaration of interest here today? Siân.

Jest er mwyn bod yn dryloyw, rydw i'n datgan diddordeb oherwydd mae gen i gysylltiad personol efo rhywun yn gweithio yn y diwydiant darlledu.

Just for the sake of transparency, I do have a personal connection with someone working in the broadcasting industry.

Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Ymddiheuriadau—cafwyd ymddiheuriadau gan Lee Waters a Mick Antoniw, ond nid oes dim dirprwyon ar eu cyfer nhw yma heddiw.

Okay, thanks. We received apologies from Mick Antoniw and Lee Waters, but there are no substitutes today.

2. S4C: Craffu ar Adroddiad Blynyddol a Chyfrifon
2. S4C: Scrutiny of Annual Report and Accounts

Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen, felly, at eitem 2, sef, 'S4C: adroddiad blynyddol a chyfrifon'. Mae gyda ni tystion yma heddiw, sef, Huw Jones, Cadeirydd S4C, Owen Evans, prif weithredwr S4C, ynghyd â Phil Williams, ysgrifennydd S4C. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod yma heddiw.

Mae'n siŵr bod rhai ohonoch chi'n gwybod y drefn. Fel arfer, mae gyda ni themâu gwahanol ac mae Aelodau gwahanol yn gofyn cwestiynau ar sail rheini. Felly, byddwn i'n gobeithio y byddech chi'n gallu ymateb i'r cwestiynau yn y ffordd honno. I gychwyn, yn amlwg, hoffwn i'ch croesawu chi a gofyn i chi: yn fras, gydag apwyntiad y prif weithredwr newydd, a oes gyda chi weledigaeth newydd yn hynny o beth? Hefyd, efallai y gallech chi esbonio yn fras i ni'r hyn y byddech chi eisiau ei weld yn dod mas o'r adolygiad annibynnol sydd yn cael ei wneud gan Lywodraeth San Steffan.

We move on, then, to item 2, which is 'S4C: scrutiny of annual report and accounts'. We have witnesses here today: Huw Jones, the chair of S4C, Owen Evans, the chief executive of S4C, and Phil Williams, the secretary of S4C. Thank you very much for attending.

I'm sure that some of you will know how things work here. Usually we have different themes and different Members will ask different questions on the basis of that. Hopefully, you can respond to questions in that manner. To start with, clearly, I'd like to welcome you and ask you: in general, with the appointment of the new chief executive, do you have a new vision in that regard? Also, perhaps you could explain in general to us what you would like to see coming out of the independent review that's been conducted by the Westminster Government.

Wel, yn amlwg, mai'r adolygiad ydy un o'r pethau mawr sydd yn ein meddyliau ni ar hyn o bryd. Rydym ni, fel rydych chi'n gwybod, wedi cyflwyno ein gweledigaeth ni ar gyfer y dyfodol yn y ddogfen 'Gwthio'r Ffiniau'. Rydym ni wedi cael dau gyfle i drafod gyda'r adolygydd lle maen nhw arni ar hyn o bryd, ac wrth gwrs rydym ni rŵan yn disgwyl—disgwyl i'r adolygiad gael ei gyhoeddi, a disgwyl hefyd i weld beth ydy ymateb Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig i'r adolygiad.

Mae'r prif weithredwr newydd yn ei swydd ers dau fis, ac yn y broses—mi gaiff Owen siarad ei hun, ond mae yn y broses o ddatblygu strategaeth adolygedig i'w chyflwyno i'r awdurdod maes o law. Owen, nid ydw i'n gwybod a oes gyda ti rywbeth benodol i ddweud ar hynny ar hyn o bryd neu beidio.

Well, clearly, the review is one of the things that's at the forefront of our minds at the moment. As you know, we have introduced our vision for the future in the document 'Pushing the Boundaries', and we've had two opportunities to hold discussions with the chair of the independent review as to where they are at the moment. We're now expecting the review to be published and are waiting to see what the UK Government's response will be to that review.

The new chief executive has been in post for two months, and Owen can speak for himself, of course, but he is in the process of developing a reviewed strategy to be presented to the authority in due course. Owen, I don't know if you have specific to say on that at this point or not.

09:35

Rydw i'n hapus. Rwy'n credu bod lot o stwff ar waith. Cyhoeddwyd 'Gwthio'r Ffiniau' tua blwyddyn yn ôl ac rwy'n credu bod lot wedi newid mewn blwyddyn, blwyddyn a hanner, felly mae lot o pethau rydw i'n edrych arnynt ar y funud ydy sut ydym ni'n esblygu o 'Gwthio'r Ffiniau'. Yn 'Gwthio'r Ffiniau', roeddem ni'n siarad amboutu creu rhywbeth digidol. Rydym ni wedi, ond y cam nesaf yw, nawr, beth licien ni ei wneud i'r dyfodol. Mae sawl her gan S4C fel sianel, os cymerwn ni bopeth arall mas o'r peth, ond i fi, mae'r dyfodol yn mynd i ganolbwyntio ar sut ydym ni'n denu gwylwyr gwahanol i'r sianel. Felly, mae lot o stwff rydym ni wedi bod yn ei wneud efo Hansh wedi gweithio, sy'n dda, ond hefyd mae'r ffyrdd rydym ni wedi bod yn gwneud pethau fel drama wedi—. Rydym ni'n dysgu fesul dydd amboutu sut mae cynulleidfa yn ymweld â'n cynnwys ni.

Felly, fel esiampl, nid wyf i'n siŵr faint o bobl a welodd Bang yn ddiweddar—roedd e'n dda. Roedd e'n dipyn bach o beilot inni, roedd e'n dipyn bach o drial mewn sawl ffordd. Roedd yr iaith a ddefnyddiwyd, y ffaith y gwnaethom ni ei wneud e ym Mhort Talbot ond hefyd y ffordd mae pobl wedi ymafael yn y rhaglen—. Ar y noswaith gyntaf—rydw i'n dysgu gyda'r stwff yma'n awr—overnights oedd y peth yr oedd pawb yn becso amboutu: faint o bobl oedd wedi gwylio'r rhaglen y noswaith gyntaf. Nawr, nid oedd y noswaith gyntaf, actually, yn grêt, ond beth a welsom ni oedd, dros yr wythnosau a wnaeth ddod wedi hynny, gwnaeth cymaint o bobl fynd trwy'r iPlayer neu trwy chwaraewr S4C i wylio'r rhaglen—. Rydym ni wedi dysgu lot, lot mwy amboutu'r ffordd mae pobl yn dechrau ymdrin â'n cynnwys ni. Dyna'r rheswm, fel esiampl, y gwnaethom ni, am y tro cyntaf erioed, gynnig box set o ddramâu fel bod pobl yn gallu 'binge watsio', rwy'n credu yw'r phrase mae pobl yn ei ddefnyddio, pethau fel hyn. Felly, mae pethau'n esblygu o 'Gwthio'r Ffiniau', ac un o'r pethau rydw i'n edrych arnyn nhw yw, yn gyntaf, sut allwn ni greu sianel ddigidiol o fewn y 18 mis nesaf, beth mae hynny'n ei feddwl, beth mae e'n edrych fel. Mae gyda ni reference—rhywbeth fel BBC Three.

Dyna un o'r pethau cyntaf, ond yr ail beth yw sut mae pobl yn ymdrin â'n cynnwys ni, sut ydym ni'n ffeindio mas beth sydd ar S4C. Os ydych chi'n siarad â'r gynulleidfa draddodiadol, fel buasech chi'n disgwyl, maen nhw'n edrych ar listings yn y Daily Post neu yn y Western Mail neu bethau fel hynny. Ond, wrth gwrs, gyda Bang ac Un Bore Mercher, y ffordd maen nhw wedi ffeindio mas amboutu'r rhaglenni yw trwy eu ffrindiau nhw'n siario clips ar trydar. Felly, mae'r holl beth yn newid, ac mae'n rhaid i S4C newid efo hyn hefyd. Mae'n rhaid i ni wneud mwy o clips. Mae'n rhaid i ni ddeall beth ddylai app wneud drosom ni yn y dyfodol. Fel esiampl, efo Facebook, rydw i'n ffeindio mas beth sydd ar S4C drwy push notifications, rwy'n troi at hynny. Mae'n rhaid i'r app ddal lan efo pethau fel Facebook. Mae'n rhaid inni ddeall beth yw pŵer YouTube, fel esiampl, i gynnal sianel ddigidol i'r dyfodol. Felly, i fi, mae lot o bethau amboutu symud i'r meysydd newydd yma a thynnu popeth at ei gilydd, yn ogystal â gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n cynhyrchu'r cynnwys gorau posib.

I'm happy to do so. I think a lot of stuff is already in place. 'Pushing the Boundaries' was published about a year ago, and a lot has changed in a year, a year and a half, so, a lot of the things that I'm looking at at the moment are how we evolve from 'Pushing the Boundaries'. There, we were talking about creating something digital. We have, and the next step is, now, what we would like to do in the future. There are quite a number of challenges for S4C as a channel, but, if you take everything else out of the equation, for me, the future is going to concentrate on how we attract different viewers to the channel. So, a lot of the stuff that we've been doing with Hansh has worked, which is good, but also the ways we've been doing things such as drama have—. We're learning day by day about how the audience is visiting our content.

So, for example, I'm not sure how many people saw Bang recently—it was good. It was a bit of a pilot for us, really, a bit of a trial in many ways: the language that was used, the fact that we produced it in Port Talbot, but also the way that people have responded to the programme. On the first evening—I'm learning all this stuff now—the overnights were the thing that people were worried about—how many people had viewed it the first night. The first night, actually, wasn't great, but what we saw was that, over the subsequent weeks, so many people viewed it through iPlayer or the S4C player—. We've learnt a lot more about the way people are starting to deal with our content. That's the reason that the channel, for the first time ever, offered a box set of dramas, so that people could binge watch—I think that's the term that people use. So, things are evolving from 'Pushing the Boundaries', and one of the things that I'm looking at is, first of all, how we can create a digital channel within the next 18 months, what that means, what does it look like. We have a reference—something like BBC Three.

That's one of the first things, but second is how do people use our content, how do we find out what is on S4C. If you talk to the traditional audience, as you'd expect, they look at listings in the Daily Post or the Western Mail and so forth. But, Bang, of course, and Un Bore Mercher, the way they found out about that was through their friends sharing clips on Twitter. So, the whole thing changes, and S4C has to change with this as well. We need to produce more clips. We need to understand what an app could do for us in the future. For example, with Facebook, I'm finding out what's on S4C from push notifications. An app has to catch up with things like Facebook. We have to understand what is the power of YouTube, for example, to maintain a digital channel in the future. So, for me, there are a lot of things about moving to these new areas and bringing everything together, as well as ensuring that we produce the best possible content.

Felly, jest yn fyr, rydych chi'n bwriadu dilyn ymlaen o'r weledigaeth oedd wedi cael ei selio yn flaenorol. Yn amlwg, rydych chi wedi dod o gefndir gwahanol iawn i Ian Jones. A ydych chi'n dod â rhywbeth newydd, unigryw, i'r rôl, neu a ydych chi eisiau parhau â'r hyn oedd wedi ei gychwyn gan Ian Jones ac sydd wedi cael ei roi ger ein bron ni fel pwyllgor yn flaenorol?

So, just briefly, do you intend to follow up on the vision that you had in the past? Clearly, you come from a very different background to Ian Jones. Do you bring something new and unique to the role, or do you want to continue with what was put in train by Ian Jones and has been presented to us as a committee in the past?

Mae lot o stwff byddaf i'n parhau ag ef. Nid oes dim amheuaeth am hynny. Ond mae cwpwl o bethau sy'n wahanol nawr, rwy'n credu. Fy hanes i—oeddwn, roeddwn i'n was sifil am saith mlynedd, ond, wrth gwrs, roeddwn i'n gweithio yn BT am 10 mlynedd efo technoleg ddigidol. Fi, efo pobl o gwmpas y BBC, wnaeth ddarlledu high definition dros fand llydan gyntaf ym Mhrydain, yng Nghaerdydd, fel mae'n digwydd. Roedd hynny 15 mlynedd yn ôl. Felly, rydw i wedi deall y dechnoleg o'i gwmpas e, rydw i'n gallu gweld sut mae'r pethau yma'n clymu efo'i gilydd. 

Beth sy'n unigryw hefyd, wrth gwrs, yw'r ffaith mod i wedi gweithio i'r Llywodraeth—allwn ni ddim anghofio amboutu hynny. Rydw i yn deall dibenion y Llywodraeth a'r Cynulliad o gwmpas yr iaith Gymraeg. Felly, un o'r pethau bydd mwy o bwyslais arnyn nhw, rwy'n meddwl, yw o gwmpas partneru efo mudiadau eraill o gwmpas sut ydym ni'n mynd i gael mwy o bobl i siarad Cymraeg.

A lot of the stuff, I will continue with. There's no doubt about that. But there are a couple of things that are different now, I think. My history—yes, I was a civil servant for seven years, but I was working with BT for 10 years on digital technology. I, with people from the BBC, broadcast high definition over broadband for the first time in Britain, in Cardiff, as it happens. That was 15 years ago. So, I have understood the technology around that, and I can see how these things tie together.

What's also unique, of course, is the fact that I have worked within Government—we can't put that to one side. I do understand the requirements of the Government and the Assembly in terms of the Welsh language. Therefore, I think there will be more emphasis in terms of partnerships with other organisations on how we encourage more people to use the Welsh language.

A'r cwestiwn olaf gen i yw, yn mynd yn ôl at yr adolygiad, yn amlwg rydych chi wedi dweud yn eich adroddiad blynyddol y byddai'r adroddiad yn edrych i anghenion ariannol S4C i'r dyfodol, ond beth mae'r adolygiad ei hun—termau'r adolgyiad ei hun—yn ei ddweud yw eu bod nhw'n mynd i edrych ar y cyllid fel y mae, current funding. A oeddech chi ar ddeall y byddan nhw'n edrych i ehangu ar gyllideb S4C? Yn ôl fy neall i, o gael cyfarfod gydag Euryn Ogwen ei hun, nad oedd edrych ar fwy o arian yn rhan o remit yr adolygiad annibynnol.

And the final question from me is, to go back to the review, clearly, you've said in your annual report that the review would look at the financial needs of S4C in the future, but what the review itself, or the terms of the review itself, says is that they're going to look at the current funding. Did you understand that they were going to be looking at widening S4C's funding? My understanding of this, from a meeting with Euryn Ogwen himself, was that looking at more funding wasn't part of the review's remit.

09:40

Ein dealltwriaeth ni—. Ac rydym ni wedi'i bwysleisio o'r cychwyn mae bwlch mawr rhwng, ar y naill law, y cyfrifoldeb sydd yn cael ei osod osod ar ysgwyddau'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol i sicrhau arian digonol i S4C ac, ar y llaw arall, y ffaith nad oes yna arweiniad yn cael ei roi ynglŷn â sut mae'r Ysgrifennydd i fod i wneud hynny. Felly, yr hyn yr ydym ni wedi bod yn ei bwysleisio ydy'r angen i'r adolygydd ddweud rhywbeth am ba brosesau dylid eu dilyn er mwyn adnabod anghenion ariannol S4C, a pha ganllawiau y byddai'n briodol i'w cymryd i ystyriaeth wrth i'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol wneud y penderfyniad yna. Rydym ni wedi gwneud y pwynt yna sawl gwaith yn y cyfarfodydd efo'r adolygydd.

Well, our understanding is—. And we've emphasised from the beginning the huge gap between, on the one hand, the huge responsibility placed on the Secretary of State to secure sufficient funding for S4C and, on the other, the fact that there is no guidance as to how the Secretary of State is to deliver that. So, what we've been emphasising is that the reviewer should say something about what processes should be followed in order to identify the financial needs of S4C, and what guidance would be appropriate to take into account when the Secretary of State makes that decision on funding. We have made that point on a number of occasions in our meetings with the reviewer.

Ni fyddech chi eisiau cael eich siomi, felly, os nad yw'r arian yn tyfu o ran yr hyn mae S4C yn ei gael. Mae'n anodd i ni fel Aelodau ddeall beth fydd yn ddigonol i chi, hynny yw—

You wouldn't want to be disappointed, therefore, if that funding doesn't grow in terms of what S4C receives. It's difficult for us as Members to understand what would be sufficient for you, that is—

Beth, sori—

What, sorry—

Beth fydd yn ddigonol i chi, heb i chi roi rhyw fath o swm neu ryw fath o syniad tu ôl i'r swm hwnnw.

What would be sufficient for you, without your giving some sort of sum, or some idea behind that sum.

Rydw i'n meddwl beth yr ydym ni wedi ceisio ei wneud ydy dangos yn glir beth yw'r gofynion y bydd gwylwyr yn disgwyl gan S4C yn y dyfodol. Pa mor eang yw'r disgwyliadau yna? Mae Owen wedi disgrifio sawl elfen bosibl o hynny, ac, i'w wneud yn glir hefyd mae'n rhaid i ni, ar yr un pryd, gynnal gwasanaeth teledu mor gyfoethog â phosibl, ac felly bod cyllid yn naturiol yn mynd i ddylanwadu ar ein gallu ni i wneud y swyddogaeth yna yn gywir.

Nid ydym ni'n trio dianc oddi wrth y ffaith bod cyllid yn ffactor gwirioneddol allweddol i ni. Rydym ni wedi ceisio osgoi bod yn rhy fanwl ynglŷn â'r ffigyrau penodol, ond rydym ni yn gobeithio yn fawr y bydd yna gydnabyddiaeth o'r pwysau sydd arnom ni, a bydd yna arweiniad ynglŷn â phrosesau priodol i'w dilyn bob tro, p'un ai yn y presennol neu yn y dyfodol y bydd cwestiwn cyllido S4C yn codi.

I think what we've endeavoured to do is to clearly demonstrate what viewers will expect from S4C in future, and how broad those expectations are. Owen's described a number of elements of that, and we've also tried to make it clear that we must also, simultaneously, maintain the television output, which must be as diverse as possible. Therefore, funding is naturally going to have an influence on our ability to carry out those functions adequately.

We're not trying to get away from the fact that funding is a very real and crucial factor for us. We have tried to avoid being too detailed in providing specific figures, but we do very much hope that there will be recognition of the pressure upon us, and that there will be some guidance on appropriate processes that must be followed, either in the present or the future, when the question of the funding of S4C arises.

Ocê, diolch. Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen nawr at berfformiad, ac mae Jenny Rathbone yn arwain. Diolch, Jenny.

Thank you. We move on now to performance, and Jenny Rathbone is leading on these questions.

Thank you. I wonder if you could explain: amongst your falling numbers for viewers, you've nevertheless had an increase in Welsh speakers. Have you had any analysis of why that is?

Well, I'd like to talk generally about the viewing figures that we publish, because, clearly, it's very important for us to understand what use is being made of the service that we provide, and what the public response to it is and to publish data to that effect. Also, it's important for us to understand what elements of the service—which programmes in particular—are doing what, what they are contributing to the service. So, we publish a lot of data, and here in this report, on pages 66, 67 and then 68, there are three pages of data and on those two pages there are 12 different measures, all of which have a certain degree of relevance. As you say, there are some there that are—. In fact, I think, between 2015-16 and 2016-17 the indictors—of 14 indicators in total, there are nine of them that are showing an increase, and five that are showing a decline. Then our job is to look at these together and try and understand what's happening, what they're telling us. As you say, there's an increase there year on year in Welsh-speaking viewers, a decrease year on year in viewing across the UK, but I think, to look at the top line there—that's the viewing across the UK— what we can see there is a four-year trend that is going up. Probably, it would be true to say that 2015-16 was a bit of an outlier, so we shouldn't be too concerned about that.

Also, it's worth mentioning that these figures are all based on viewing on television sets. These are Broadcasters Audience Research Board figures that are derived from, in Wales, 500 boxes—boxes in 500 homes. So, it's a sample. Always, with a sample, there is sampling error, and one has to take it with a certain amount of wisdom, if you like, and that's why we tend to emphasise not the overnights, but the figures over the whole week, over the whole year. And looking down the list, then, you can see the figures for viewing in Wales: a slight increase year on year, and Welsh speakers, as I say, going up year on year. So, there's interesting information there, and that's the weekly reach—three-minute weekly reach. The next section is 15-minute monthly reach, and that's showing some interesting figures. Those are showing an increase, and what they tend to describe is people watching for longer. So, the analysis, if you like, is that we succeeded last year in getting more people who are watching longer, but fewer people who are watching briefly. There's an interesting analysis there as to what is important, what's more important, and that's a recurring debate.

And then, just to say, of course, that those figures don't include the figures of digital viewing, which is online viewing in particular—which comes over the page—where we have this reduction year on year in viewing on iPlayer. That's probably because of a change in the way iPlayer viewing is measured. It was measured as a sample and, as a result of that, probably in 2015-16 viewing of S4C on iPlayer was overstated, whereas now it's measured accurately, and therefore the 2016-17 figure is more likely to be accurate, showing again, over the whole period, the trend is upwards, and the viewing on S4C's own service, the Clic service, showed an increase in the years in question. And then, on top of that, you've got the viewing that is through Facebook, YouTube and other platforms, which is not captured by these figures. It has to be looked at separately.

So, one of the big challenges that we've got in all of this is how to recognise the reality that people are watching our content in different ways, on different platforms. That viewing is measured in different ways; the metrics are different. The whole industry is trying to get to terms with that: how do you get a relationship between ways of measuring digital viewing and traditional ways? And we're part of that as well. But you can see, I think, that it's a mixed picture. There are more indicators year on year that are going up, which is good, but we have to keep an eye on all of them. Owen, you wanted to—.

09:45

Endeavour not to blast me too much with science. I just want to question as to why you think the drop-off in UK viewing is a blip. How do you know it's a blip as opposed to a declining trend?

Well, the main reason is because the sample of—. Across the UK, the likelihood of sample error is considerably greater when you're looking at the viewing to smaller channels than it is in Wales, where we actually pay to boost the viewing panel so that there are more homes that have boxes, so that we get a more accurate measurement in Wales. We can see from the viewing to individual programmes across the UK that it can be very volatile and it tends to pick up casual viewing, if you like, rather than planned viewing. I think that's our collective view as to what happened in 2015-16 and, of course, we will keep an eye on it.

Okay. In terms of your strategy for boosting the number of viewers, obviously the BBC is very successful at cross-promotion. How much cross-promotion are you able to do?

Do you want to take that, Owen?

It is more difficult, obviously, because we have one television channel, whereas the BBC can cross-promote across a number of channels.

But they're not prepared to promote your programmes. Because you're both public sector public service broadcasters.

There is an element of cross-promotion. So, the BBC will promote some of our content, and have done so in the past. The area where we've been doing, I think, more now is trying to push strategically into markets that we wouldn't have got to before. So, for example, back to your question about the volatility of the UK figures, that tends to be driven—. It is volatile, because the statistics mean that it will always be volatile, but things like sport, for example, where you get a very good reach across the UK for Pro14, for football and things like that, it really does depend on how many events you have that you televise. What we're doing increasingly, for example, when we had Wales-Moldova or the very, very popular sports games—. One of the areas we're talking about with partners at the moment is that, 10 years ago, the issue for the Welsh language particularly was the lack of parents passing on the language to children. That's almost reversing now. We've got so many kids going through the system who now speak Welsh and the parents actually don't speak Welsh. What we're doing, for example, is pushing Cyw, which is our young children's content, into the breaks during the sports. So, we're trying to get at the parents who are sat there, who might not be Welsh speaking actually, and trying to push our programmes through slots to try and drive people to content, which is actually very popular once they get to it. 

09:50

Okay. That sounds like a good strategy. Given that we're awaiting the outcome of this review by the UK Government, what else can you tell us in terms of your strategy for improving your performance? 

The main thing on that front would be the presentation of a new programme strategy. A year before Owen joined us, we appointed a new director of creative content, Amdanda Rees. She has presented to the production sector her strategy, which is focused on trying to place S4C programming at the centre of the national conversation. It's an ambitious strategy in terms of the quality of programmes—it's trying to drive quality at all levels. We are constantly seeking to be as aware as possible of audience response, particularly we need to understand the responses of non-viewers or light viewers, and what it is that they're looking for particularly from a Welsh language channel. So, across the piece, if you like, there's work going on all the time. Essentially, it is about making content that people want to watch, which is an ongoing process.

Ocê, diolch. Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen nawr o'r adran yma, ond mae gan Rhianon gwestiwn clou.  

Okay, thank you. We'll now move on from this section, but Rhianon has a quick question. 

Diolch, Chair. With regard to your last statement regarding the universality of content that people want to watch, without diminishing the raison d'etre of S4C, how do you feel that you actually fare in terms of reaching out to that wider universal audience? Obviously, I'm talking about programmes like Hinterland, and I'm really interested, as a new member of this committee, to find out what your perception is going forward and your strategy with regard to bilingual programming, because, as a former member of the BBC's broadcasting council for Wales, this was something that we were talking about a long time ago and it's only now that we seem to be—forgive me if I'm incorrect—talking about YouTube and Twitter and the other various platforms. There doesn't seem to have been much progress between now and the last 10 years. So, how would you sell to me that S4C is dynamic, is in the marketplace for not just selling to the UK, but across the globe, because I think we're very well placed to be able to do that, but we don't seem to be able to be making that much headway? 

I think you're absolutely right, and drama is probably the way to move through this although factual docs are also in the category. Drama, I think, has been one of the strongest suites for the channel over the past year. We've had Bang, which was very successful, Un Bore Mercher, which is currently on, we've got Y Graith starting just after the new year. Bang has been a bit of a mould-breaker for us. In some ways, you could think of it as missionary work for an area that wasn't particularly Welsh-speaking before, and it was a bit of a risk. We were worried about the linguistic content of it,  but in focus groups and in talking to young people about it, what you tended to find was, yes, some people would complain about the quality of the language on it, but that would move through to other people saying, 'My mum doesn't speak Welsh, lives in Port Talbot, watches it, loves it now and is far more engaged with the channel.'  So, I think things like Bang have worked in that respect. The irony of Bang is that it's partly Scandi noir but we've managed to sell it to Sweden.  

So, you're absolutely right.. One of the strategies we've got to do because—. Co-productions are important. They're not without their risks, I'll mention, and perhaps I'll come to that in a second. The fact that we are producing good content now, and have done for many years, means that we still have a reputation abroad, and perhaps we should make more of it. So, one of the things we're talking about now within the new strategy is that we don't just attend the Marché International des Programmes de Communication and things like that, but that we have a proper presence there, and we try and push. We're getting good distributor right deals on some of our content. Sometimes, when you do co-productions, it becomes more complex because there's more people in the mix, but I think Bang has been a success. Un Bore Mercher, I know the BBC has sold to several countries already, but I think there's more of this we can do. 

09:55

Sorry to interrupt you, but these are the types of conversations that we've been having for a very long time. I think we're extremely well placed in a global marketplace to be doing a lot more and a lot more aggressively. 

Thanks for that, Rhianon. We'll have to move on, just time wise. Siân Gwenllian has a small question as well. 

Ie. A jest derbyn, wrth gwrs, fod cynyddu nifer gwylwyr drwy ehangu i'r platfformau eraill yn hanfodol, pa rwystrau sydd yna efo gwneud hynny, yn dechnegol felly? Er enghraifft, nid wyf yn siŵr efo iPlayer, er enghraifft, y tu allan i wledydd Prydain, fedrwch chi erbyn hyn wylio S4C pan fyddwch chi ar eich gwyliau, ac yn y blaen?

Accepting, of course, that increasing the number of viewers through expanding to other platforms is essential, what barriers are there in doing that technically? For example, I'm not sure with iPlayer, for example, outside the UK, can you watch S4C when you're on holiday, for example?

Hawliau yw'r rhwystr mwyaf. A gan ei fod e'n amcan polisi gennym ni i geisio lledaenu defnydd o'r cynnwys y tu allan i Gymru, ac i Brydain, rydym ni yn mynd ati i geisio ennill yr hawliau. Rydym ni'n llwyddo o gam i gam, ac mae yna fwy a mwy o ddeunydd ar gael rŵan ar lwyfannau digidol y tu allan i Brydain. Ond mae yna gwestiwn cwbl resymol gan ddeiliaid hawlfraint, sef, 'Beth sydd ynddo fo i ni?' Mae nhw wedi arwyddo cytundebau i wneud rhaglenni ar sail tiriogaeth Prydain, fel arfer, y Deyrnas Unedig, felly mae cael yr hawliau i ddosbarthu yn fyd-eang yn golygu negydu manwl yn aml iawn gyda phob unigolyn sydd wedi cyfrannu at raglen. A, maes o law, mae sicrhau bod yr hawliau yna ar gael i ni yn bwysig, ond weithiau mae yna gost ychwanegol ac mae yna falans i'w daro rhwng gwthio cost cynhyrchiad i fyny a sicrhau'r holl hawliau i ddarlledu'n fyd-eang. 

Rights are the greatest barrier. As it is a policy objective of ours to try and expand use of the content outside Wales and outside the UK, we are trying to get those rights. And we are succeeding step by step, and there is more and more content available now on digital platforms outwith the UK. But there is an entirely reasonable question as to the holders of those rights, namely, 'What's in it for us?' They have signed contracts to make programmes on the basis of a territory, which is the UK, so having global rights does mean very detailed negotiation very often with every individual who's contributed to a programme. And, in due course, ensuring that those rights are available to us is very important, but there is an additional cost on occasion and there's a balance to be struck in terms of pushing up the cost of production and securing the rights to broadcast globally.

Byddai rhywun yn meddwl y byddai ehangu i iPlayer, a'ch bod yn medru cael mynediad i bobl sydd yn byw ac yn siarad Cymraeg ar draws y byd i raglenni drwy iPlayer—

One would think that expanding to iPlayer, and that you'd be able to have access to programmes through iPlayer for people across the world who speak Welsh—

Mae ein gwasanaeth Clic ni ar gael, lle mae hawliau yn caniatáu, trwy'r byd, ac mae elfennau o'n cynnwys—. Fel mae Huw yn dweud, rydym yn ceisio, on a case by case basis, felly, i ryddhau cynnwys. Ac mae elfennau o ddarpariaeth, megis y sioe frenhinol, er enghraifft, sy'n hynod o boblogaidd ar draws y byd. Rydym ni'n ceisio, lle mae hawliau'n caniatáu, felly, ond, wrth gwrs, mae yna elfennau cost, onid oes. 

Our service, Clic, is available, where rights allow, globally, and elements of our content—. As Huw says, we're trying to release content, and there are elements of the provision, for example the Royal Welsh Show, that are extremely popular across the world. So, we are trying, where rights allow us to do that, but there is a cost, isn't there.

Diolch. Symudwn ni ymlaen nawr at fuddiannau diwylliannol ac economaidd. Suzy Davies. 

Thank you. We'll move on now to cultural and economic impacts. Suzy Davies. 

Before I move on to specific questions about Yr Egin, just to develop a little bit more about what Rhianon was talking about, you've given us evidence in the past, to be fair, that the existing statutory structure means that you've got very limited powers for developing your commercial activities, and the hope is that this review will improve your scope to do that. But you've got quite a comprehensive plan with the powers that you've got at the moment, and I'm wondering how much of that can be used—the branding and the selling of the commercial potential within the brand—and how that is targeted at improving take-up of Welsh language skills by young children. So, it's less about what you're seeing on the screen and more about the ancillary work that the commercial potential offers for impacting on Welsh language use, or visibility anyway.

The need to expand the visibility of Welsh language content beyond the screen is something that we recognise and something that we are directing our commercial endeavours towards. I think the caution is, of course, that it's not necessarily something that is going to make money, and therefore, there are limitations to what's possible. But, clearly, if we can do it, we want to do that, because, in the longer term, it feeds in to improving the perception of the brand, and to the use that is made of the TV service. 

Ond mae elfennau fel Hansh yn bwysig o ran gwelededd brand S4C, i sicrhau bod ein cynnwys ni ar gael mewn llefydd o bosib na fyddai pobl ddim yn disgwyl ei weld o, a chynnwys o fath gwahanol hefyd. Erbyn hyn, mae gyda ni 3 miliwn o sesiynau gwylio ar Facebook Live bob mis, yn bennaf i bethau fel Hansh, ac mae hynny'n andros o bwysig o ran cyflwyno'r Gymraeg mewn llefydd newydd. 

But elements such as Hansh are important in terms of the visibility of the S4C brand, to ensure that our content is available in places where people wouldn't perhaps expect it, and different kinds of content too. We now have 3 million viewing sessions on Facebook Live every month, mainly for things such as Hansh, and that is crucially important in terms of introducing the Welsh language in new places. 

Roeddwn i'n edrych ar y cynlluniau ar gyfer Fferm Cyw, er enghraifft, sydd ddim ynglŷn â rhaglen ei hunan, ond fel profiad. A oes yna ryw fath o syniad o ehangu ffordd o feddwl tebyg i hynny?

I was looking at plans for Fferm Cyw, for example, which is not about a programme itself, but an experience. Is there some sort of idea of expanding such a way of thinking?

10:00

Mae hwn yn lincio i gwestiwn Rhianon hefyd. Mae Cyw wedi llwyddo fel cyfres. Mae yna gwestiwn os, yn y tymor byr, byddai'n well i ni, fel esiampl, ehangu'r brand yn rhyngwladol. Rydym ni'n treialu animeiddio drwy Cyw ar y funud. Mae animeiddio'n gymharol hawdd i werthu dramor. Felly, drwy brand extension, drwy ei werthu fe dramor, a'i werthu fe drwy'r Deyrnas Unedig hefyd, mae'n bosibl tyfu'r brand mewn lle y byddai rhywbeth fel Fferm Cyw—mae mwy o siawns iddo lwyddo.

Felly, mae yna lot o gwestiynau am y stwff masnachol o gwmpas sut i dyfu'r brand—gwneud rhywbeth fel Fferm Cyw yng Nghymru gyntaf, neu ehangu'r brand drwy ei werthu yn rhyngwladol. Dyna'r math o bethau rydym ni'n trafod nawr. Ond mae'n gweithgaredd masnachol ni hefyd yn edrych ar y pethau rydym ni'n gallu gweld sy'n hirdymor yn bwysig i'r iaith Gymraeg hefyd. Mae pethau fel voice recognition yn un o'r meysydd yna. Mae voice recognition, rwy'n credu, i ddyfodol yr iaith, yn really bwysig.

That links to Rhianon's question too. Cyw has succeeded as a concept. There is a question if, in the short term, it would be better for us, as an example, to expand the brand internationally. We are trialling animation through Cyw at the moment. Animation is relatively easy to sell abroad. Through brand extension, selling it abroad, and throughout the UK too, then it's possible to develop the brand in a place where something like Fferm Cyw would be more likely to succeed.

So, there are questions in terms of commercial issues around how to develop the brand—concentrating on Fferm Cyw in Wales first, or concentrating on selling internationally. Those are the kinds of things we are discussing now. But our commercial activity is also looking at things that we believe have a long term beneficial interest for the Welsh language. Voice recognition is one of those. I think voice recognition is important for the future of the language.

Byddai hynny'n brilliant

That would be brilliant.

Byddai. Mae'n embaras nad yw Alexa a Google Home a phethau fel hynny yn gweithio drwy'r iaith Gymraeg.

It would. It's an embarrassment that Alexa and Google Home don't work through the medium of Welsh.

Rydw i angen hynny ar hyn o bryd.

I need that at the moment.

Mae rôl gan S4C. Mae sawl corff yng Nghymru yn gweithio ar hyn ar y funud—Canolfan Bedwyr, y Llywodraeth—mae lot o bobl yn y mix. Ond, yn amlwg, gallai S4C elwa mas o rhywbeth fel hyn, felly dylem ni chwarae rôl.

S4C has a role there. A number of organisations in Wales are working on this at the moment—Canolfan Bedwyr, the Welsh Government—there are many people in the mix. But, clearly, S4C could benefit from something like this, so we should play a role.

Felly, rydych chi'n dweud mai un o'r ffyrdd gorau i helpu cynyddu beth mae S4C yn gallu ei wneud y tu fewn i economi Cymru yw i weithio mewn partneriaeth gyda rhai o'r cwmnïau tech. Rwy'n gwybod bod hynny'n adran o dwf yn yr economi ar hyn o bryd. A ydych chi'n well placed i wneud hynny?

Therefore, you're saying that one of the best ways to help increase what S4C can do within the Welsh economy is to work in partnership with some of the tech companies. I know that is a sector of growth in the economy at the moment. Are you well placed to do that?

Rwy'n credu ein bod ni. Y cwestiwn yw sut. Mae cwestiynau eithaf dwys ynghylch a ydym ni'n gwneud hynny'n open source neu—. Y flwyddyn yma, fe es i i Seattle. Roeddwn i ar wyliau yno, nid drwy gwaith. Mae'r gŵr sy'n edrych ar ôl public sector innovation a phethau fel hynny yn Gymro Cymraeg o Sir Fôn. So, fe ges i tour o gwmpas Microsoft i weld beth allan nhw wneud. Mae yna sawl partner sy'n moyn mynd fan hyn, ond y peth mwyaf yw dangos y case masnachol i wneud hyn. Rwy'n credu, drwy dynnu pobl at ei gilydd, y gallwn ni ffeindio ffordd. 

Yes, I think we are. The question is how. There are complex questions as to whether it should be open source or—. This year, I went to Seattle. I was on holiday there, not through work. The person looking after public sector innovation there was a Welsh speaker from Anglesey. So, I had a tour around Microsoft to see what they were doing. There are a number of partners who want to work in this area, but the main thing is to make the commercial case for doing this. By drawing people together, we can find a way of doing that.

Ond byddai'n help cael mwy o le i wneud hynny nag o dan y gyfraith ar hyn o bryd. Mae'r adolygiad, gobeithio, yn mynd i wneud newid.

But it would be a help to have more room to do that than under the current law. Hopefully, the review will change that.

Fe fyddai'n haws.

It would certainly be easier.

A allaf i droi nawr at yr Egin?

Can I turn now to Yr Egin?

I'm going to do this in English because it's figures and I can't do figures in Welsh. Obviously, there's a few of us here from South Wales West. The connection with the city deal is of great interest to us and this is one of the key areas of it. The relationship with the university is well known. I just wonder if you could take us through some of the figures on this. The university is going to be getting a contribution from Welsh Government for its part of its obligations, and S4C will be giving upfront rent of the same figure, which is £3 million. It's an advance payment for 25 years. Have I understood that correctly? So, you're paying it all upfront. I don't want to go too far into the commercial niceties of this, but is this something you're in a position to pay all in one go?

Fe wnaf i ddweud hyn yn Gymraeg, os caf i. Mae hynny'n seiliedig ar ein gallu ni i werthu ein cartref presennol yn Llanisien. Dyna yw'r ddamcaniaeth. Mi fydd angen bridging loan, yn y bôn, achos rydym ni'n mynd i orfod aros yn Llanisien nes ein bod ni wedi gorffen y symudiad, sydd yn cynnwys symud y gwaith technegol i ganolfan y BBC. Felly, mae'r Llywodraeth wedi cynnig facility i ni a fydd yn ein galluogi ni i wneud hynny. Dyna yw'r logic. 

I will answer in Welsh, if I may. That is based on our ability to sell our current home in Llanishen. That is the theory. We will need a bridging loan, essentially, because we will have to remain in Llanishen until we have concluded the move, which includes shifting the technical side of things to the BBC's premises. So, the Government has offered us a facility that will enable us to do that. That is the logic.

Llywodraeth San Steffan.

That's the Westminster Government.

Llywodraeth San Steffan, ie.

The Westminster Government, yes.

Achos nid oeddwn i cweit yn siŵr sut roedd yr arian o San Steffan yn mynd i weithio. Dyna yw pwrpas hynny. Ocê.

Because I wasn't sure how the Westminster money was going to work. That's the purpose of that. Okay. 

Ie, dyna'n union y pwrpas. Mae yna wariant cyfalaf hefyd yn gorfod digwydd wrth inni symud i mewn—. Wrth i'r BBC ddarparu gwasanaeth technegol i ni, mae yna ofyn i ni gyfrannu at wariant cyfalaf. Mae o i gyd gyda'i gilydd felly yn creu'r angen yma i ni gael benthyciad gan y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan, sydd wedi cael ei gytuno.

Yes, that is exactly the purpose. There will also be a capital spend when we move in—. As the BBC provides technical services to us, we will have to contribute to capital spend. All together, it generates this need for us to have this loan from Westminster, which has been agreed.

Okay. Because it seems to me that the main risk lies with the university, with Yr Egin, because they've taken on the obligation to build. If they run into difficulties finding other tenants, is that likely to impact on you at all? Do you know whether the expressions of interest that they've had have been signatures on dotted lines? 

10:05

There was an announcement on the news this morning, actually, that they reckon that 60 per cent of the capacity will be taken up by the time S4C moves in. So, that's an encouraging sign. Our wish, of course, is that the place is a real cluster, a creative hub and hubbub of activity as well—

Clearly, we hope that those efforts will be successful and, indeed, we're confident that they will be, maybe in the medium term. 

Okay. I missed this announcement this morning, so forgive me. Were those confirmed tenants? You may not know the answer to this; I'm sorry if it's—. 

I wouldn't want to quote, because this was a very brief impression that we got of the news this morning. 

Okay. What do you think the impact generally of moving to Carmarthen will be for not just Carmarthen itself—because I know that's been an area of contention in terms of where the site should be—but do you think that moving into a bigger hub is likely to have a greater reach for S4C, not just across Wales but across the UK as well? One of the questions that I think we have about certainly impact—not just the commercial impact going to Sweden and places like that—but what's your reach into places like England, for example? Does moving your headquarters have an impact on that in any way, or is it just—?

The main way we have an impact is by providing a successful service. We get into far more homes that way than we will do in any other way, so that's obviously our—

Okay, so it's the modernised centre that will make the big difference. 

Yes. I think the key question with S4C relocating was, since the question was going to arise in any case of moving the technical side, 'Do we have to stay in Cardiff? Is it inevitable that an organisation has to remain in the capital?' And I think it's interesting that on a UK level there is quite a strong push from UK Government to ensure that arm's-length bodies do take every opportunity to consider whether they have to be in London in order to rebalance the economy. That's the big idea at work.  

Sorry, I realise my question was clumsy. I just wanted to clarify before I move on. Because you've got the opportunity to move and to invest in more modern equipment in more modern premises, because we have a huge diaspora in England particularly, do the new facilities enable you in some way to reach that audience in a different way, or is that more about programming and things like that? 

I think those are separate issues. Obviously, in doing these two moves we want the equipment that we have to be future facing, to be fit for purpose, and I'm sure they will be. 

Diolch, Suzy. Mae gan Siân Gwenllian gwestiwn. 

Thank you, Suzy. Siân Gwenllian has a question. 

Rwy'n gwybod ei bod yn rhy fuan eto, mae'n debyg, i wybod yn union beth fydd effaith y pencadlys yn symud ar y Gymraeg. Efallai mewn rhyw chwe mis bydd hi'n bosibl cael rhyw adroddiad gennych chi ynglŷn â faint o bobl sydd wedi symud i fyw i Gaerfyrddin, achos yn y pen draw y gweithwyr yn symud allan o Gaerdydd i'r ardal yna sydd yn mynd i gael impact ar y Gymraeg yn lleol. A'r pryder ydy efallai bod pobl yn mynd i aros yng Nghaerdydd a theithio nôl ac ymlaen bob dydd i Gaerfyrddin. Mae'n rhy fuan, debyg, ydy hi, i wybod? 

I know it's too soon probably to know exactly what the impact of moving the headquarters will be on the Welsh language. Perhaps in about six months it will be possible to have some report from you about how many people have moved to live in Carmarthen, because ultimately the workers moving out of Cardiff to that area are going to have the impact on the Welsh language in the local area. And the concern is that perhaps people are going to remain in Cardiff and travel back and forth every day to Carmarthen. It's too soon, probably, is it, to know? 

Ydy. Mae yna sawl cam i fynd. Bydd syniad go lew gyda ni o faint o bobl sydd eisiau symud i dai yng Nghaerfyrddin o gwmpas y gwanwyn—mis Ionawr, mis Chwefror. Mae rhai pobl yn barod wedi dweud, 'Reit, rwy'n symud', so mae pobl yn barod yn edrych am dai a phethau o gwmpas Caerfyrddin. Rwyf wedi cael eithaf lot o brofiad o wneud y fath beth yn y gorffennol ac, i fi, mae hon yn broses sy'n mynd gymryd rhwng pump a saith mlynedd. I ddechrau, fel prif weithredwr, y cam cyntaf i fi yw gwneud siŵr bod y sianel yn gallu gweithredu o'r Egin. Felly, mae sawl sgìl y bydd angen i ni eu cael ar y dydd cyntaf yn gweithredu yn yr Egin. Felly, i fi, mae'n rhaid i fi gadw rhai o'r staff sydd efo fi yn barod, felly rwy'n trio annog cymaint o bobl sy'n gallu i ddod efo ni i Gaerfyrddin. 

Mae yna sawl peth rydym wedi rhoi mewn lle i bobl i ymweld, i drio, ond rwy'n amau dros y flwyddyn neu ddwy flynedd gyntaf, mi fydd pobl yn trafaelio o Gaerdydd i Gaerfyrddin. Bydd rhai yn symud yna, bydd rhai yn trafaelio a bydd rhai yn penderfynu nad ydyn nhw eisiau cario ymlaen fel hyn. So, bydd yna gymysgedd. Rŷm ni'n barod wedi cymryd ymlaen y person cyntaf sydd wedi ymuno ag S4C achos ein bod ni'n symud i Gaerfyrddin, sy'n beth da. Bydd yna gymysgedd, rwy'n credu. Ar y dydd cyntaf, bydd yna gymysgedd o bobl leol sydd wedi cymryd swyddi newydd efo S4C, bydd yna gymysgedd o bobl S4C sydd wedi symud i'r ardal yn barod a bydd yna gymysgedd, ie, o bobl sy'n trafaelu lan a lawr yr M4 am sbel i weld sut y mae hyn yn gweithio. Ond dros y blynyddoedd—

There are a number of steps to go through. We will have the best idea in terms of people who want to move physically to Carmarthen around January or February. Some people have already said, 'Right, I'm moving', so people are already looking for homes in the Carmarthen area. I've had quite a lot of experience of doing this kind of thing in the past and, for me, this is a process that will take between five and seven years. First of all, as chief executive, the first step for me is to ensure that the channel can operate from Yr Egin. So, there are a number of skills that we will need to have in place on the very first day in Yr Egin. For me, I must keep some of the staff that I already have, so I'm trying to encourage as many people as possible to come with us to Carmarthen. 

There are a number of things that we've put in place so that people can visit, and give it a go, but I suspect over the first year or two that people will be commuting from Cardiff to Carmarthen. Some will move to Carmarthen, some will commute and some will decide that they don't want to go on in that way. We've already taken on the first person who's joined S4C because of our move to Carmarthen, which is a positive thing. I think there will be a mix, on the first day, of people who are local to the area and have taken new posts with S4C, there will be people from S4C who will have already moved to the area and there will, yes, be people who do travel up and down the M4 for a time to see how that works.  

10:10

Pa bryd fydd y pencadlys yn agor? Pryd fydd gennym ni ryw fath o syniad beth ydy'r mix?

When will the headquarters open? When will we have some sort of idea what the mix will be?

O gwmpas mis Medi neu mis Hydref y flwyddyn nesaf. 

Around September or October next year. 

So, erbyn mis Medi flwyddyn nesaf bydd gennym ni syniad go lew beth ydy'r mix o bobl sydd yn teithio a phwy sy'n byw yn yr ardal. 

So, by next September, we'll have a good idea of the mix of people who are travelling and living in the area and so on. 

Bydd, yn bendant. Ond y pwynt yw, rwy'n credu, o fewn pum mlynedd, y bydd y sefyllfa'n dra wahanol. 

Yes, certainly. The point is, I think, within five years, the situation will be very different. 

Os ydym ni'n gallu cael nodyn, fel y mae Siân wedi ei ddweud, yn gychwynnol, gyda rhai o'r ffigurau rydych chi'n gallu eu cael, byddai hynny o help i ni, cyn gynted â'ch bod chi'n gallu gwneud rhyw fath o analysis. Wedyn, mae'n siŵr, bydd y pwyllgor yn edrych mewn i'r peth yn y dyfodol ta beth. 

If we could have a note, as Siân has said, about some of those initial figures, that would be of assistance to us, as soon as you can make some sort of analysis. I'm sure the committee will look into it in the future. 

Jest un peth bach sydyn arall. Rydw i'n cynrychioli Arfon, fel rydych chi'n ei wybod, ac wedi brwydro i geisio cael y pencadlys yng Nghaernarfon. Nid ydw i'n mynd i fynd yn ôl dros hynny, ond a oes yna unrhyw fwriad i ehangu'r presenoldeb yng Nghaernarfon o ran nifer y gweithwyr a fydd yn lleoli yn fanna?

Just one quick question. I represent Arfon, as you know, and fought to have the headquarters in Caernarfon. I'm not going to go back over that, but is there any intention to expand the presence in Caernarfon in terms of the number of workers who will be located there? 

Rwy'n meddwl ei bod hi'n ddiddorol bod y nifer o weithwyr yn swyddfa Caernarfon wedi cynyddu dipyn dros y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf beth bynnag, ac mae yna, erbyn hyn, rwy'n meddwl, 14 o swyddi yn swyddfa Caernarfon. Nid ydw i'n meddwl bod yna fwriad penodol—

I think it's interesting that the number of those working in the Caernarfon office has increased over the past two years in any case, and I think there are now 14 posts in the Caernarfon office. I don't think that there is a specific intention—

Nid oes bwriad strategol, na.

There's no strategic intention, no. 

—i ehangu hynny. Mae'n flaenoriaeth, yn amlwg, rŵan, i sicrhau bod y symudiad i Gaerfyrddin yn gweithio. A gaf i jest roi un ystadegyn sy'n bwysig ei daflu i mewn fan hyn? Mae ffocysu'n ormodol ar bwy sydd yn byw ymhle yn creu tipyn o fwgan lle y mae rhywun yn colli golwg ar y ffaith mai'r swyddi sy'n symud. Maes o law, wrth i'r swyddi symud, mi fydd yr impact yn digwydd. Mae'r ONS nawr yng Nghasnewydd. Pan symudon nhw yn wreiddiol, dim ond 10 y cant o'r staff wnaeth symud. Roedd yna ddigon o bobl yn fodlon dweud, 'Mae hwn yn gamgymeriad'. Ni fuasai neb rŵan yn dweud y dylid symud yr ONS yn ôl, achos mae'r swyddi yna ac maen nhw wedi dod yn swyddi lleol dros gyfnod.  

—to expand that. The priority now is clearly on ensuring that the move to Carmarthen works. Just one statistic that I think it's important to throw in at this point: focusing too much on who lives where does create a case of scaremongering, where one loses sight of the fact that it's the posts that move. In time, as those posts do move, then the impact will happen. The ONS is based in Newport. When they originally moved there, only 10 per cent of the staff moved. There were plenty of people who said that that was a mistake. Nobody would say that now and say that the ONS should be moved back, because those jobs are there and they have become local jobs over a period of time.  

Thank you. In terms of pure clarification as a new member of this committee, you mentioned earlier or touched upon a number of performance indicators that you're actually working towards. Are you using bespoke performance indicators for S4C—I'm sure you are—and do you share any of these performance indicators with the BBC, bearing in mind your new relationship with them? 

The performance indicators are here in the annual report. They are bespoke in the sense that they aim to measure the performance of the S4C service. Clearly, some of the metrics are similar or, in some cases, identical to ones used by other broadcasters. I think, at all times, we have to remember that S4C is a unique service; it has a unique remit to provide a Welsh language service and therefore not all the metrics are relevant. 

Okay. Diolch. Do you believe that you have the right number of performance indicators or have you got too many?

I think Owen has some thoughts on that and will be introducing ideas in the new year. These have, to some extent, stood the test of time, but they are challenged, I think, particularly by the new media usage that's coming into being and how we incorporate measuring that alongside the more traditional ones. 

We've developed this framework of eight performance measures based on reach and usage, quality, impact, and value and value for money, because we don't think you can refract the performance of a television channel down to one number or one metric. So, the framework is bespoke to S4C and it covers those topics. But, we use industry-standard metrics—the Broadcasters Audience Research Board for the reach of television and industry-standard metrics for online and Facebook—to report on those metrics. 

I think when you come in to look at these things, it's quite a complex mix. As Huw said, we are moving into uncharted territories in some regards with digital. BARB, which is typically the measurement we use, will be trialing Dovetail quite soon, which is more of a mix of the traditional boxes in a corner plus online viewing. We were talking about the BBC, and one of the things we're working on with the BBC at the moment is, of course, that the visibility we get of our content shown through things like iPlayer is still a bit opaque at the moment. And given it's such an important part of the future of broadcast, we do need to get a better handle on what the viewing patterns are through things like iPlayer.

10:15

And finally, for clarification, £7.4 million is your sum of money. How much is your grant in aid?  

The money coming from the BBC is—correct me here, Phil —£74.5 million, and the grant in aid is £6.7 million.

Okay, thank you. Shall I come to you with my line of questioning? They're on a slightly different topic now, in terms of where we're going to be moving to next. In terms of your call for an updated remit, can you articulate what is your vision for a broader commercial power? And also, in terms of the review, can you articulate for me and for the committee the difference between the public service media content provider, other than a public service broadcaster, because they're very defined?

I'll take the second one first. The public service media provider is, clearly—. The difference is that it doesn't define what we do purely in terms of television, which is what the existing remit does. So, even though we are already active in the non-television-only field, through creating content that is seen initially on digital media, it would be good to have clarification and support that everyone recognises that, yes, indeed, we are meant to be a public service media provider, not just a traditional tv service. 

How will that help you, in terms of what you already do, the mandate that you currently have?

The biggest thing is that, effectively, we've been a bit naughty, I suppose, over the past year, in that we're not allowed to broadcast—. Well, the remit doesn't encourage us, shall we say, to broadcast digitally, but we have been doing it, because this is where the market's going. I think it's difficult for us to make the big financial decisions about whether we move into that area when we still have a cloudy situation around exactly what the remit allows us to do. I think if the remit and Euryn's report comes back, and the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport's response, of course, which is equally important, comes back saying, 'No. We're going to take the shackles off. We see that your remit needs to be updated. You need to be allowed to compete in these areas, and also broadcast outside of Wales'—you know, just the fact that we have the surety that we can do this means that we can start investing in it.

And in terms of what you're actually seeking, in terms of broader commercial powers, are they along the same lines, in terms of that authority?

Phil, would you be able to come in on that?

Yes. Our commercial powers are quite convoluted and quite complex and disproportionate, to be honest. We used to have commercial powers akin to Channel 4's, in the Broadcasting Act 1996. They changed them in the Communications Act 2003, and for any new commercial ventures that we enter into, in new fields, we have to seek an order from the Secretary of State, which is a quite cumbersome process for, let's say, the relatively small sums that we could invest in a project—tens of thousands of pounds or whatever—whereas BBC Worldwide and Channel 4 don't have to go through that process. If we were to venture into very different commercial areas that we haven't been active in before—we've done this once, in about 2008 or 2009—the Secretary of State would have to consider the merits of the proposal and would have to draft an Order. That would have to go before both Houses of Parliament in London. We just think it's a bit disproportionate and cumbersome and time-consuming for S4C's commercial investments and, as a result, we haven't actually pushed those boundaries, possibly. We haven't gone through that process—

So, you believe—sorry to interrupt—that would enable the wider broadcast and the wider dissemination of work from S4C globally.

There are two specific element to the remit that we've been discussing in pushing the boundaries. One is the television service remit, which you've discussed. The second is the commercial—. They're separate. The commercial one is, I think, just to enable us to look at commercial opportunities in a more pragmatic manner.

Yes. And on the television side, the issue we have is our remit is still couched in terms of the 1980s: a television broadcasting service, wholly or mainly for the public in Wales. But over 0.25 million people watch us. The diaspora that Siân Gwenllian was talking about—over 0.25 million watch us outside Wales every week. We should be able to broadcast to them the television broadcasting service that we're obliged to provide. S4C doesn't have a duty, a statutory duty, to provide online services. Now, we think that it's very important that the Welsh language and Welsh language content is available on online platforms. That's why we think using the terms that the European Broadcasting Union and other broadcasters across Europe use—you know, public service media—and to reflect changes that have taken place in the BBC and the BBC's royal charter, and in Channel 4 and in the Digital Economy Act 2017 is also relevant to Welsh language content.  

10:20

But the reality is, is it not, that you need a viable commercial arm as well in terms of being able to carry out the full, optimum delivery of what S4C's able to achieve in the future? That's a personal comment, so I'll strike that from the record.

In terms of your relationship, then, with the BBC, and the new agreement, how would you quantify that in terms of your mandate and your vision moving forward? 

The new agreement with the BBC is, we think, a very important document. It defines the nature of the relationship that will exist between S4C and the BBC for the next 10 years, for the duration of the charter. It clearly spells out that S4C is an independent organisation, operationally and editorially. It spells out what the licence fee contribution to S4C will be until 2021-2, and it also gives a clear understanding that there's an expectation that licence fee funding beyond that will continue. It spells out what the value of the BBC's own programming for S4C will be for the five years. It commits to continuing the iPlayer until 2028, and then it sets out the parameters for the relationship, the working level, between ourselves and BBC Wales, particularly in relation to the publishing of services by them in Central Square. So, it's an important document. We link it, and they link it, to the commitment made by the BBC in their charter to creating partnerships and to being a good partner, and we see that as a very important indicator. It's a commitment to work in partnership, not just at the Wales level, but across the BBC, and we expect, therefore, to be able to derive advantages from that in different ways in the future. 

Thank you. With regard to where you see the position of S4C with other bodies such as Ofcom, and obviously the National Assembly for Wales, do you feel that you are well placed in the future to become a major player globally in terms of broadcast? And I mentioned bilingualism earlier, at the beginning of the session—

Just briefly, because I think we'll be coming on to Ofcom afterwards as well.

Yes, I've actually gone into the 'Pushing the Boundaries' services. It's the wrong time, is it? 

Well, you're nicking Neil Hamilton's question off him. [Laughter.]

I think, clearly, coming back to the ability to contribute internationally, our ability to do that is not constrained by structural issues. I think it's the practicalities, for me, of how you get partners interested in content that S4C can also be interested in. And I think Hinterland is the key example here—that S4C was central to getting the thing commissioned in the first place: S4C was the broadcaster that commissioned it. The BBC initially took it as a resale, if you like, and then came in as a partner in the second and third series. But, equally crucial, was the role of all3media, the distributor that saw that here was an international, quality programme that they could sell. They retain the international right—S4C doesn't have rights to sell internationally. It has to bring other people in who are willing to put a value on those rights and put money into the production in the first place. That's how it works, that's how we bring additional value into Welsh language programming, and that's what we will certainly continue to do. 

Ocê, diolch. Neil Hamilton. 

Okay, thank you. Neil Hamilton. 

Just to go back to the BBC, there's obviously a massive qualitative change in your relationship with the BBC as a result of new funding arrangements. That offers scope for a tremendous number of positives in the future by virtue of the scale and the reach of the BBC, of course, not just within Wales, but within the United Kingdom and beyond to the rest of the world. So, how are you getting on with Rhodri in terms of the BBC? He seems to be very positive about this move and I think their mindset is that they want to help you to expand and succeed, and why wouldn't they? As you were saying a moment ago, Huw, about the partnership commitments, this fits naturally into their remit. So, is this working out in practical terms at the moment very beneficially to you, or is it too early to say as yet?

10:25

I think we can look back on the last four years, where we had to set up a new relationship because the funding switched in 2013 and we arrived at an operating agreement, which we proved against, if you like, many expectations that it could be made to work. There was a lot of goodwill on both sides, but we were able to demonstrate that S4C retained its independence but also was able to work in partnership and vice versa. Now we've drawn up a new agreement, which was to some extent a continuation of that spirit of partnership but defines it, I think, more clearly and in the longer term. And, yes, I think we are confident that there's a genuine desire on the part of both organisations to work together. As someone said, we are both publicly funded organisations. We have our individual remits: we have our unique task to do, the BBC has its charter, but the objectives do lie very much in parallel with each other. So, certainly in terms of our relationship with the BBC at the board level, David Clementi is a signatory to the new partnership agreement, and Owen I'm sure you would speak to the relationship you're developing with Rhodri.

It's very good is the simple way about it. We've met several times already in my just over two months, and we're already talking about—. What's been good to see at a practical level is that we're now enjoying the benefits of things like training facilities from the BBC. They're already offering us courses on that. But we're also having discussions about content. Remember the BBC, of course, is a supplier to S4C, so we are talking about news, about digital. We will compete in some areas, of course, and that is necessary, of course, but we need to understand and have a mature relationship where we know where were going to compete but we also know where were going to co-operate and work together. I think the portents are very good for this.

The development of news broadcasting for S4C I think is, for the future, an important method of increasing your viewership, and obviously the resources of the BBC there are matchless. So, you are finding that there is a very positive attitude towards this for S4C.

We are. The challenge for S4C in this, when you have a supplier providing part of your current affairs and news, is how to create a distinct brand around S4C in news. These are the discussions we're having with the BBC at the moment, where you have what is a very, very strong capacity in news reporting. We need to work out with the BBC exactly how we create something that is identifiable as S4C's news provision as opposed to just a generic BBC news provision.

Just to move on, because there are only a couple of minutes left now, the legislative framework within which you operate is obviously archaic, but the governance relationships also, of course, relate back to that period as well. Does the authority, do you think, meet the needs of the day now or have things changed to such an extent that you need to think in terms of a new governance model? You, of course, have a particular experience having been chief executive as well and seamlessly moved into the authority—

No, no—five-year gap.

I know, but I meant in a spiritual sense—[Laughter.]

I think we have discussed this previously, and we expect the review to comment on this specifically. What we have said, what we do recognise, is that the term 'authority' was of its time. It was set up as a self-regulating authority, but so many of those regulatory functions fell away in 2003 that there is, and has been, danger of confusion and people thinking that there are two separate bodies—one being the authority and the other being S4C, whereas in actual fact there is only one body, and it is S4C, of which the S4C authority is the non-executive board. Now, there are questions there about structure, which I think, legitimately, we expect the reviewer to comment on, and we are not dogmatic about what the future structure should be as long as it's fit for purpose and it helps the organisation achieve its objectives.

10:30

This is the last question, as we're on 10.30 a.m. You had your annual review of the effectiveness of the authority. Has anything changed in the last year that you think we should know about?

We did have a close look at how we were operating. Yes, things did change in terms of how progress is monitored, and that sort of thing. I don't think I'd go into the list at this point in time, but, yes, it was a valuable exercise, but I think it was very much in line with what all public bodies should undertake from time to time.

Mae gen i gwestiwn clou i orffen. Mae dadl wedi bod gyda WalesOnline yr wythnos yma rhwng pobl yn dweud bod pobl iaith Gymraeg yn—. Wel, roedd rhywun wedi ysgrifennu darn i'r Western Mail yn dweud ei bod hi'n teimlo, fel lleiafrif ethnig, nad oedd hi'n teimlo'n gyfforddus i ddysgu'r Gymraeg, ac roedd eraill, wedyn, yn dweud ei fod yn anghywir i roi'r onus ar bobl sydd yn siarad Cymraeg i ddelio â hynny a bod angen newid systemau i ennyn pobl i ddysgu'r Gymraeg. O'r adroddiad yma, nid wyf yn gweld—plîs dywedwch os ydwyf yn anghywir—sut rŷch chi'n bwriadu targedu pobl sydd yn dod o leiafrifoedd ethnig i wylio S4C, i ddysgu'r iaith ac i weld eu hunain ar y sgrin. Yn fy marn i, o wylio S4C, mae'n weddol—jest pobl gwyn trwy'r amser. Os nad yw pobl yn gweld eu hunain ar y sgrin, beth sydd yn mynd i'w hennyn nhw i wylio'r sianel? A oes gennych chi strategaethau i gael mwy o bobl, actorion, sydd o ddiwylliannau gwahanol yn rhan o'ch rhaglenni chi yn y dyfodol?

I have a quick question to finish. There has been a debate within WalesOnline this week, with people saying that Welsh speakers are—. Well, someone wrote a piece for the Western Mail, saying that she felt, as an ethnic minority, that she didn't feel comfortable learning Welsh, and others, then, were saying that it was wrong to place the onus on people who speak Welsh to deal with that and that there was a need to change systems to encourage people to learn Welsh. From this report, I can't see—please tell me if I'm wrong—how you intend to target people who come from ethnic minorities to watch S4C, to learn the language and to see themselves on screen. In my view, from watching S4C, it's quite, you know, just white people all the time. If people don't see themselves on screen, what is going to encourage them and inspire them to watch the channel? Do you have strategies to have more actors who are from different cultures as part of your programmes in the future?

Ar fy nydd cyntaf i yn y job, fe wnes i benodi swyddog amrywiaeth.

On my first day in post, I appointed a diversity officer.

Amrywiaeth. So, dyna'r peth cyntaf wnes i, mwy neu lai.

Diversity. That was my first step, more or less.

Ar y cyfan, ar y sgrin, mae ein amrywiaeth ni'n dda.

Generally speaking, on screen, our diversity is good.

Wel, yn ystadegol mae e. Ond, rydw i'n credu bod lot mwy gallwn ni ei wneud. Mae yna ddau beth i fi. Yn gyntaf, mae'n rhaid inni wneud yn siŵr bod beth sydd ar y teledu yn cyfleu'r gymdeithas rydym yn byw ynddi. Dyna'r cam cyntaf. Felly, rydw i'n gwneud arolwg o faint o bobl sydd yn gweithio yn y diwydiant, a phethau fel hynny. Yr ail beth yw: mae'n rhaid i'r corff, sefydliad S4C, ddangos y gymdeithas rydym yn gweithio ynddi hefyd. Felly, rydw i hefyd yn gwneud arolwg o staff S4C ar sail y protected characteristics, ie, ond hefyd, ar bethau fel social mobility, achos rydw i'n credu'n gryf mewn pethau fel yna.

Unwaith rydw i wedi edrych o fewn S4C, byddaf yn gweithio efo'r sector i wneud yn siŵr bod y sector yn cynnull o gwmpas polisi eithaf cryf o gwmpas amrywiaeth hefyd. Rydw i'n tybio mai un o'r pethau y byddaf yn dod â nhw at yr awdurdod o fewn y misoedd nesaf bydd polisi amrywiaeth, ac efallai siartr a fydd rhywbeth yn debyg i Channel 4.

Well, statistically it is. But, I think there's a lot more that we could do. There are two things for me. First of all, we must ensure that what is on television reflects the society that we live in. That's the first step. So, I am carrying out a review of how many people are working in the industry, and so on and so forth. The second thing is that the institution, S4C itself, must reflect the society that we work within. So, I am also carrying out a review of S4C staff on the basis of the protected characteristics, yes, but also on the basis of social mobility because those are important issues too.

Once I have looked within S4C, I'll be working with the sector to ensure that the sector as a whole will actually converge around a strong diversity policy. I suspect that one of the things I will bring to the authority within the next few months will be a diversity policy, and there may be a charter that is similar to what Channel 4 has.

Ocê. Nid oes angen inni gael mwy o ateb nawr. Os ydych yn gallu rhoi nodyn inni, efallai, pan fydd y swyddog hwnnw wedi cael mwy o amser i weithredu yn ei rôl—nid wyf yn gwybod os yw'n ddyn neu'n fenyw—i roi diweddariad inni fel pwyllgor, byddai hynny'n ddiddorol iawn.

Okay. We don't need a fuller answer now, but perhaps you could provide us with a note when that officer has had more time in his or her role—I'm not sure whether it's a he or a she. An update for us as a committee would be very useful.

Yn bendant.

Definitely.

Diolch. Rydym yn mynd i gymryd seibiant o gwpl o funudau nawr, ond diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am ddod i mewn. Rydw i'n siŵr byddwn ni mewn cysylltiad eto. Rydym wedi eich cael chi i mewn yn weddol aml hyd yn hyn yn ystod y tymor yma, felly ar ddiwedd y tymor, hoffwn ddiolch ichi am gydweithredu â ni fel pwyllgor ac am rannu eich sylwadau. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much. We're now going to take a break for a few minutes. Thank you very much for attending this morning. I'm sure we'll be in touch again. We have had you in to this committee quite regularly during this term, so at the end of the term, I'd like to thank you for co-operating with us as a committee and for sharing your comments with us. Thank you very much.

A diolch ichi am eich cefnogaeth chi.

Thank you for your support as well.

Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much.

Diolch.

Thank you.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:34 a 10:41.

The meeting adjourned between 10:34 and 10:41.

10:40
3. Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru: Craffu Cyffredinol
3. National Library of Wales: General Scrutiny

Symudwn ymlaen at eitem 3, Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru: Craffu Cyffredinol. Croeso i'r tystion: Rhodri Glyn Thomas, sef y llywydd; Linda Tomos, sef y prif weithredwr a llyfrgellydd; a Pedr ap Llwyd, sef dirprwy prif weithredwr a llyfrgellydd (casgliadau a rhaglenni cyhoeddus)—teitl hir ond teitl arbennig o dda. Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am ddod i mewn yma'r bore yma. Rydym ni fel arfer yn cael themâu gwahanol o gwestiynau, ac felly, os yw'n iawn gyda chi, bydd Aelodau'n arwain ar hynny. Felly, rydym yn symud ymlaen yn syth at gwestiynau ac mae Siân Gwenllian yn arwain heddiw. Diolch.

We'll move on to item 3, which is general scrutiny of the National Library of Wales. A warm welcome to our witnesses: Rhodri Glyn Thomas, the president; Linda Tomos, chief executive and librarian; and Pedr ap Llwyd, deputy chief executive and librarian (collections and public programmes)—a lengthy title but an excellent title all the same. Thank you for joining us this morning. We usually have themed question, so if it's okay by you, we will have Members leading on particular themes. So, we'll move immediately to those questions and Siân Gwenllian will open. Thanks.

Bore da. Mae'r llythyr cylch gwaith at y llyfrgell genedlaethol gan y Llywodraeth yn sôn bod angen ichi fod yn darparu tystiolaeth i ddangos bod y cyllid sy’n cael ei ddarparu ar gyfer y llyfrgell genedlaethol yn darparu gwerth i’r cyhoedd. A ydy’r cyllid yn darparu gwerth i’r cyhoedd?

Good morning. The Welsh Government's remit letter to the library mentions the need for you to provide evidence to demonstrate that the funding provided for the national library does provide value for money for the public. Does that funding provide value for money?

Ydy. Yn sicr iawn, mae’n darparu gwerth i’r cyhoedd. Wrth gwrs, mae gennym ni ddwy linell cyllid—cyllid refeniw a chyllid cyfalaf—ac mae cyllid refeniw yn cael ei ddefnyddio, wrth gwrs, i ariannu gweithgareddau’r llyfrgell a’r staffio. Mae’n bwysig cofio, dros y ddegawd diwethaf, fod yr arian hwnnw wedi aros yn ei unfan. Wrth gwrs, mae chwyddiant wedi cynyddu yn y cyfnod yna, felly rŷm ni’n derbyn llai o arian yn awr nag yr oeddem ni ddegawd yn ôl. Mae hynny wedi arwain at sefyllfa lle, dros y pedair blynedd diwethaf, mae traean o’r staff wedi mynd—mae 70 o aelodau staff wedi mynd; rŷm ni wedi mynd o 300 i 230—ac felly rŷm ni’n cynnal yr un ystod o weithgareddau ag yr oeddem ni cynt yn ogystal â chyflwyno gweithgaredd newydd. Rŷm ni wedi gwneud gwaith arloesol ym myd digidol dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, felly, rŷm ni wedi llwyddo i wneud hynny mewn cyfnod lle mae’r arian rŷm ni’n ei dderbyn yn llai. Felly, mae hynny’n golygu bod y gwerth cymaint â hynny yn fwy.

It does. Most certainly, yes; it provides value for money for the public. We have two budget lines—revenue and capital—and the revenue funding is used, of course, to fund activities and the staffing of the library. It's important to bear in mind that, over the past decade, that funding has remained static. Of course, inflation has gone up in that period, so we receive less funding now than we did a decade ago. That has led to a situation where, over the past four years, a third of the staff have gone—70 staff members have left; we've gone from 300 to 230—but we maintain the same range of activities as we have in the past, as well as having introduced new activities. We have done innovative work in digital over the past few years, and we have succeeded in doing that in a period when the funding that we receive has reduced. So, that does mean that the value for money is so much the greater.

Hefyd, os caf i ategu, rydym wedi gwneud rhywbeth gwahanol ddechrau eleni ac am bedair blynedd. Un o’r pethau sy’n ein rhwystro ni gyda’r llythyr cylch gorchwyl ydy ei fod o’n flynyddol. Mae o’n anodd iawn, iawn i chi gyflawni popeth rydych chi eisiau’i wneud yn strategol mewn naw mis—cwta naw mis. Felly, fe wnaethom ni ofyn i'r Llywodraeth, yn hytrach na’n bod ni’n paratoi cynllun gweithredol am flwyddyn, ein bod ni’n cyd-fynd â’r strategaeth pedair blynedd—hynny yw, mae’n strategaeth bresennol yn mynd o 2017 i 2021—ac yn creu cynllun gweithredol pedair blynedd, er mwyn gallu dangos ym mha flwyddyn y byddem yn cyflwyno gwahanol strategaethau.

Nawr, rydw i’n gweld hynny’n llawer gwell o ran dangos sut mae’r llyfrgell yn perfformio ac a ydy’r llyfrgell yn cyrraedd y nod, achos mae hi’n anodd, rydw i’n meddwl, ym mhob cyd-destun, i wneud hynny mewn blwyddyn. Felly, yn ogystal â sylwadau’r llywydd, rydw i'n meddwl, os ydym yn edrych ar y llythyr cylch gorchwyl, un o’r pethau sy’n ein rhwystro ni, rŵan, ydy ei fod yn flynyddol, yn wahanol iawn i’r Alban, gyda llaw, lle maen nhw’n gosod blaenoriaethau’r Llywodraeth ar ddechrau tymor y Llywodraeth, ac felly mae'r llythyr blynyddol yn sôn am yr arian, ond nid yw'n newid yr amcanion strategol. 

If I could also add to that, we have done something different from the beginning of this year for a period of four years. One of the barriers for us in terms of the remit letter is that it is an annual remit letter. It is very, very difficult to achieve everything that you want to achieve strategically in nine months. Therefore, we did ask the Government that, rather than preparing an annual action plan, we work to a four-year strategy—our current strategy goes from 2017 to 2021—and create an action plan over four years, so that we can demonstrate in which years we were going to introduce our various strategies.

Now, I see that as being far better in terms of demonstrating the library's performance and whether the library is achieving its targets, because I think it is difficult, in all contexts, when you are working on a year-by-year basis. So, in addition to the president's comment, I do think that if we are looking at the remit letter, one of the barriers to us at the moment is that it is an annual remit letter, unlike the situation in Scotland, by the way, where they set the Government's priorities at the beginning of the Government's term, and therefore the annual remit letter talks about the funding, but it doesn't change the strategic objectives.

10:45

A ydych chi'n casglu tystiolaeth i ddangos gwerth am arian, a beth ydy'r deilliannau rydych yn ceisio eu cael allan o'r arian? 

Do you gather evidence to demonstrate value for money, and what are the outputs that you are seeking from that funding? 

Mae yna gyfarfodydd chwarterol lle mae'r Llywodraeth yn craffu ar ein gwaith ni ac ar ein perfformiadau ni, ac mae hynny hefyd weithiau yn destun trafod oherwydd y Llywodraeth sy'n gosod y targedau. Ac rwy'n meddwl ei bod yn deg i ofyn eto: pa mor realistig ydyw i ni gyrraedd y targedau hynny mewn blwyddyn mewn sefydliad sydd ag uchelgais tymor hir? Dyna reswm arall pam mae o'n well, yn fy marn i, ein bod ni'n gosod targedau dros bedair blynedd yn hytrach na blwyddyn.

Yn ogystal, wrth gwrs, rydym yn cael ein craffu gan y bwrdd. Y bwrdd sydd â'r cyfrifoldeb am graffu ar berfformiad y llyfrgell yn fewnol, ac mae o'n bwysig eu bod nhw hefyd yn fodlon bod y llyfrgell a gwaith y llyfrgell yn dangos gwerth am arian.

There are quarterly meetings where the Government scrutinises our work and our performance, and that sometimes is a topic of conversation because it's the Government that sets the targets. And I think it is fair to ask, again: how realistic is it for us to achieve those targets within a year in an institution that has long-term ambitions? That is another reason why it's better, in my view, that we do set targets over four years rather than a year. 

In addition to that, of course, we are scrutinised by the board. The board has responsibility for scrutinising the performance of the library internally, and it's important too that they are content that the library is demonstrating value for money.

Rwy'n meddwl o ran y bwrdd y peth pwysig i ni, wrth gwrs, ydy nodi bod y llyfrgell yn sefydliad cenedlaethol, ac fel cenedl rydym yn brin iawn o sefydliadau cenedlaethol. Nid wyf yn siŵr bob amser fod y Llywodraeth na gwleidyddion yn gyffredinol yn ymwybodol o bwysigrwydd ein sefydliadau cenedlaethol ni, a phan fydd Llywodraeth yn gosod targedau, hyd yn oed iddyn nhw eu hunain, nid ydynt bob amser yn dargedau cyraeddadwy. Hynny yw, yr un amlwg i fi ar ôl bod yma yn Aelod am 17 mlynedd oedd y targed i ddileu tlodi plant yng Nghymru, sydd ddim erioed wedi cael ei gyrraedd, ac nid oes fawr o gynnydd wedi bod ynddo, mewn gwirionedd. Mae'r targed maen nhw wedi ei osod yn ddiweddar ar gyfer nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg i gyrraedd 1 miliwn yn darged mae'r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn ei gydnabod yn darged anghyraeddadwy.  

Felly, beth mae'r bwrdd wedi edrych arno ydy lle rydym ni o flwyddyn i flwyddyn, ac ar bob elfen o ystod gweithgareddau y llyfrgell mae yna gynnydd wedi bod o flwyddyn i flwyddyn. Felly, mae'r bwrdd yn edrych ar hynny yn hytrach na thargedau. Fe fyddwn i yn gofyn y cwestiwn: 'A ydy'n realistig mewn gwirionedd i osod targed o ran ymwelwyr i sefydliad fel y llyfrgell genedlaethol sydd yn sefydliad ymchwil yn y bôn?' Dyna yw hanfod ei gwaith. Mae'r casgliadau yno. Bydd Pedr yn gallu siarad mwy am hyn, ond dyna yw hanfod gweithgaredd y llyfrgell, nid denu ymwelwyr, yn wahanol iawn i'r amgueddfa, er enghraifft. Ond rydym yn cynnal gweithgareddau sydd yn denu ymwelwyr, ac rydym yn trio sicrhau bod pobl yn teimlo bod eu profiad nhw o ymweld â'r llyfrgell yn cael ei gyfoethogi fel eu bod nhw'n gallu ailymweld, oherwydd mae yna gyfyngiadau amlwg ar faint o bobl sy'n mynd i deithio i Aberystwyth i ymweld â'r llyfrgell. Dyna pam hefyd ein bod yn mynd lawr y llwybr digidol er mwyn ymestyn cyrhaeddiad y llyfrgell a sicrhau bod pobl yn gallu cael mynediad i'n casgliadau yn ddigidol.  

I think in terms of the board, the important thing for us, of course, is to note that the library is a national institution, and as a nation we are very short of national institutions. And I'm not sure that on all occasions the Government or politicians in general are aware of the importance of our national institutions, and when Governments set targets, even for themselves, they don't always set achievable targets. The obvious example for me, having been a Member here for 17 years, was the target to eradicate child poverty in Wales, which has never been achieved, and there's been very little progress towards it. The target that they have set recently in terms of reaching 1 million Welsh speakers is a target that most people would recognise as being an unachievable target. 

So, what the board has looked at is where we are on a year-to-year basis, and on all elements of the range of activities of the library, there has been progress on a year-on-year basis. Therefore, the board is looking at that rather than looking at targets. I would ask the question whether it is realistic, if truth to be told, to set a target in terms of visitors to an institution such as the national library, which is a research institution essentially. That is the nature of its work. There are collections there, and Pedr can tell you more about those, but that is the foundation of the activity of the library, not attracting visitors, unlike the museum, for example. But, we do stage activities that do attract visitors, and we do try to ensure that people feel that their experience of visiting the library is enhanced so that they can visit again, because there are obvious restrictions on the number of people who are going to travel to Aberystwyth to visit the library. That's why we are going down the digital route in order to enhance the reach of the library and ensure that people can access our collections on a digital basis.   

Fe ddof at y dangosyddion perfformiad mewn dau funud, ond rwyf jest eisiau sôn am un agwedd ariannol sydd efallai yn dangos diffyg cynllunio ariannol, sef yr agwedd gyfalaf a'r tanwariant sylweddol yn y gyllideb. Rydych chi wedi cael cerydd am hyn yn barod gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, rwy'n meddwl—wel, y Gweinidog, beth bynnag. 

I'll come to the performance indicators in a few moments' time, but I want to address one financial issue that perhaps demonstrates a lack of financial planning, which is the capital side and the significant underspends in the capital budget. You, I think, have been criticised for this by the Cabinet Secretary, or the Minister, at least. 

A gaf i ddweud ein bod ni yn y lle cyntaf yn gwerthfawrogi'n fawr iawn yr arian cyfalaf? Mae'n arian sylweddol, ond rwy'n credu bod yn rhaid i'r Llywodraeth, a hyd yn oed yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, sylweddoli gydag adeilad fel y llyfrgell genedlaethol, allwch chi ddim gwario £8 miliwn mewn blwyddyn. Byddai'n rhaid i ni gau yr adeilad i'r cyhoedd a byddai'r adeilad yn dod yn safle adeiladu, ac nid wyf yn meddwl bod neb eisiau gweld y llyfrgell ar gau am flwyddyn gyfan tra'n bod ni'n gwario £8 miliwn yn gweddnewid yr adeilad. Felly, beth rydym wedi ei wneud—

May I say first of all that we very much appreciate the capital funding? It is significant, but I do think the Government, and even the Cabinet Secretary, have to realise that with a building such as the national library, you can't spend £8 million in a year. We would have to close the building to the public and the building would become a building site, and I don't think that anyone would want to see the library closed for 12 months while we spent £8 million transforming the building. So, what we have done—

Mae rhywun yn derbyn hynny, ond mi ddylai hynny fod wedi cael ei weithio mewn i'r gyllideb—[Anghlywadwy.]—proffilio y gyllideb. 

I would accept that, but surely that should have been factored into the budget. 

Mae o wedi ei weithio i mewn i'r gyllideb, oherwydd rydym wedi sicrhau y bydd yna £2 miliwn wedi ei wario erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn ariannol, ac yna bydd y gweddill—y bron £6 miliwn sydd yn weddill—yn cael ei wario dros y ddwy flynedd ddilynol. Felly, o'm rhan ni, rydym wedi cynllunio yn fanwl iawn ar gyfer yr arian cyfalaf hwnnw. Byddai'n rhaid i chi ofyn i'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet pam roedd yna ddisgwyliad i'r llyfrgell i wario hynny mewn blwyddyn, sy'n gwbl anymarferol, er ein bod ni yn gwerthfawrogi'r arian yn fawr iawn.

It has been factored into the budget, because we have ensured that £2 million will have been spent by the end of the financial year, and then the rest—the almost £6 million remaining—will be spent over the next two years. So, from my point of view, we have planned in very great detail for that capital spend. You would have to ask the Cabinet Secretary why there was an expectation that the library should spend that all in a year, which is entirely impractical, although we appreciate the funding very much, of course. 

10:50

Medraf i sôn am y broses, pe bai hynny o help i aelodau'r pwyllgor.

I could mention the process if that would that assist commitee Members. 

Ddim yn rhy hir, os yn bosibl, achos mae lot o gwestiynau i ni fynd trwyddyn nhw. 

Very briefly, if you don't mind, because we have a number of questions to get through.  

Digon teg. Yn 2015, fe wnaeth y llyfrgell greu cynllun pedair blynedd ar gyfer gwaith angenrheidiol cynnal a chadw a chyflwyno hwnnw i'r Llywodraeth. Roeddem ni'n ddiolchgar iawn am yr arian ond nid oedd dim disgwyliadau gan y llyfrgell o gwbl y byddai'r arian yn cael ei wario mewn blwyddyn; roedd yn gynllun pedair blynedd. 

Fair enough. In 2015, the library drew up a four-year plan for necessary maintenance work and presented that to Government. We were very grateful for the funding but there was no expectation within the library that it would be spent within a year; it was a four-year plan. 

Ac wedi'i briffilio i gychwyn yn yr ail flwyddyn, felly, ie, ond bod yr arian yn eich cyrraedd chi yn y flwyddyn gyntaf? 

And profiled to start in the second year, yes, but that the funding would arrive in the first year? 

Yn union. Mae'r Llywodraeth, i fod yn deg iddyn nhw, wedi gofalu bod proffil yr arian o fewn ein cyrraedd ni o ran y gwaith. 

Exactly. The Government, to be fair to them, have ensured that the funding profiling is within our reach in terms of the work that needs to take place. 

A symud at y mesuriadau perfformiad yn sydyn, nid ydych chi wedi llwyddo i gyflawni pedwar allan o'r saith. Rydych chi wedi sôn yn fras eich bod chi efallai'n meddwl nad yw'r dangosyddion yma yn rhai cywir erbyn hyn, ond nid yw hynny'n ymddangos yn berfformiad iach iawn.   

Moving on to the performance indicators quickly, you haven't managed to achieved four of the seven performance indicators. You have mentioned that these indicators aren't perhaps fit for purpose now, but that doesn't appear to be a very healthy state of play in terms of performance. 

Rydw i'n meddwl bod Rhodri wedi sôn yn barod—mae'r ffigurau hynny'n dangos cynnydd bob blwyddyn, felly, rydw i'n meddwl, y llynedd roedd yn 86 y cant o'r targed a oedd wedi cael ei osod gan y Llywodraeth, ac mae'n 88 y cant eleni. Felly, o ran perfformiad y llyfrgell, mae'r llyfrgell wedi gwella'i pherfformiad yn flynyddol. Mae'n rhaid gofyn a oedd y targed yn un a oedd yn bosibl i'r llyfrgell ei gyrraedd, ond cwestiwn i'r Llywodraeth ydy hynny. Felly, fel yr oedd Rhodri yn sôn, y bwrdd sy'n craffu o ran ein perfformiad ni, ond, o dan bob un o'r dangosyddion, rydym ni'n dangos cynnydd. 

I think Rhodri has already mentioned some of this already. Those figures do show a year on year improvement. So, I think, last year it was 86 per cent of the target set by Government, and it's now 88 per cent this year. So, in terms of the library's performance, the library has improved its performance on an annual basis. We must ask whether the target was an achievable target for the library, but that's a question for Government. So, as Rhodri mentioned, it's the board that scrutinises our performance, but, in terms of each of those performance indicators, we are showing improvement.  

Roeddech chi'n sôn am osod targed uchelgeisiol o gynyddu'r rhai sy'n defnyddio'r gwasanaeth ar-lein i 3 miliwn. Mae hynny'n dyblu'r targed.  

You mentioned setting an ambitious target of increasing those using the online service to 3 million. That's a doubling of the target. 

Ydy, ond mewn pedair blynedd, erbyn 2021, ac mae yna waith wedi'i gynllunio i gyrraedd y targed hwnnw. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, nid wyf i eisiau ailadrodd, ond mae hynny'n dangos i mi ôl cynllunio'n strategol a chynllunio ar ôl targedau blynyddol.  

Yes, but within four years, by 2021, and work has been put in place to reach that target. Apologies, I don't want to reiterate things I've already said, but that demonstrates to me evidence of strategic planning and planning to annual targets. 

Felly, mae angen diwygio yn eich barn chi nifer yr ymwelwyr. Mae eisiau rhoi'r targed hwnnw'n llai i gyd-fynd efo'r targed uwch o 3 miliwn.  

So, in your opinion, you need to revise your visitor numbers. So, you will need to reduce that target to correspond with the higher target of 3 million. 

Hynny ydy'r trend ym mhob llyfrgell ymchwil. Mae yna lai o bobl a myfyrwyr yn defnyddio'r llyfrgell. Mae llawer iawn mwy yn defnyddio ar-lein ac mae'r llyfrgell wedi dechrau cynllunio ar gyfer dyfodol lle fydd pobl yn disgwyl eu bod nhw'n gallu cael mynediad i wasanaethau digidol y llyfrgell ym mhle bynnag y maen nhw, ac mae hynny'n beth iach beth bynnag i ni. Oherwydd lle rydym ni yng Nghymru, mae'n beth iach, ble bynnag yr ydych yn byw yng Nghymru, eich bod yn gallu cael mynediad llawn i'r gwasanaethau. 

That's the trend in all research libraries. There are fewer people and students using the library. There are far more using facilities online, and the library has started to plan for a future where people will expect to be able to access the library's digital services wherever they are, and that's a healthy development. Because of where we're located in Wales, it's a healthy thing that, wherever you live in Wales, you can have full access to those services. 

Yes, very briefly. On some of these indicators haven't been met, would you state that you don't believe that the targets are achievable? That seems to be what you've stated. I get the impression that, if you were a school, you'd be in special measures. That's the impression that I get. So, in terms of that statement and bearing in mind your mandate across Wales, I personally don't feel that I've seen any communication in my local library from you. Would you state that all of these points are incorrect? 

Well, I think you probably would have, whether you've seen the brand of the national library—. The national library runs the national digital library for all Welsh libraries and has done so for several years very successfully. It's only because of the national library's ability to provide that service for all Welsh libraries, and that includes higher and further education as well as public libraries, because you can appreciate now that many public libraries in Wales are now very small and they've had a lot of cuts from local authorities—. So, our ability to run the national digital library—. So, if you do go to your local library and you go online, that's due to the national library being able to provide those online services across Wales. 

So, do you feel that you need to up your game, bearing in mind that you've had an underspend of £6 million? I take the points that you made earlier that you majoritively disagree with the comment that's come from Welsh Government, but do you feel, in an era of austerity, that you do have to be doing more with the public funding that you are getting? 

Rydw i'n meddwl bod rhaid i ni fynd yn ôl at y datganiad cychwynnol y gwnes i. Rydym ni'n derbyn mewn termau real lai o arian nawr nag yr oeddem ni yn ei dderbyn 10 mlynedd yn ôl. Ar bob ystod o weithgaredd, mae gweithgaredd y llyfrgell yn cynyddu o flwyddyn i flwyddyn. Rydym ni'n mynd i feysydd newydd fel meysydd digidol. Nid wyf i'n credu bod unrhyw un wedyn yn gallu beirniadu perfformiad y llyfrgell. I awgrymu bod sefydliad sy'n dangos cynnydd yn ei weithgaredd o flwyddyn i flwyddyn yn sefydliad ddylai fod mewn mesurau arbennig, byddai hynny'n golygu bod pob ysgol yng Nghymru mewn mesurau arbennig. Y cwestiwn i chi fel pwyllgor graffu arno fe yw: pa mor realistig yw'r targedau y mae'r Llywodraeth yn eu cyflwyno? A ydy'r Llywodraeth, mewn gwirionedd, yn gallu ar y naill law dorri y gwariant y maen nhw'n ei roi i sefydliad ac yna disgwyl iddyn nhw gynyddu eu perfformiad? Nid yw'r peth yn gredadwy. Mae'n rhaid i'r Llywodraeth ddechrau bod yn llawer iawn mwy realistig yn y ffordd y maen nhw'n gosod eu targedau. Rŷch chi'n sôn am danwariant. Nid oes yna danwariant ar arian refeniw ac nid oes yna danwariant ar arian cyfalaf. Y cyfan sydd wedi digwydd ydy ein bod ni wedi gosod yr arian cyfalaf hynny mewn amserlen realistig; wnaeth y Llywodraeth ddim pan gyflwynon nhw'r arian i ni. Nid yw'r arian wedi'i danwario; mae e wedi'i gynllunio ymlaen dros y tair blynedd nesaf. 

I think that we have to go back to the initial statement that I made. We receive in real terms less money now than we received 10 years ago. In every range of activity, the library's activity is increasing from year to year. We are entering new areas such as digital. I don't think that anyone can then criticise the performance of the library. To suggest that an organisation that demonstrates an increase in its activity year on year is an organisation that should be in special measures means that every school in Wales would be in special measures. The question for you as a committee to scrutinise is: how realistic are the targets that the Welsh Government is setting? Can the Government, on the one hand, cut the expenditure they provide for an organisation and then expect them to increase their performance on the other? It isn't credible. The Government has to be much more realistic in the way it sets its targets. You're talking about underspend. There is no underspend on the revenue funding and there is no underspend on capital money. All that's happened is that we have set that capital money in a realistic timetable; the Government didn't do that when they presented that funding to us. It has not been underspent; it has been planned over the next three years. 

10:55

Diolch. Rŷm ni'n gorfod symud ymlaen, sori. Suzy Davies.

Thank you. We do have to move on, sorry. Suzy Davies. 

Diolch. Obviously, you've been lucky with the Heritage Lottery Fund for the BBC archive. Can you give us some indication, in terms of percentage, of how much of your revenue funding comes from sources other than the Government?

So, how much doesn't come from other sources—not the Government?

Five per cent. So, 95 per cent of our revenue expenditure comes from the Government and 5 per cent comes from other sources.

With capital, I suppose it varies a little bit from year to year, doesn't it? 

It will, yes. Certainly, as you mentioned, there will be development projects such as the very exciting national broadcast archive, which will skew the capital and some revenue as well. But most of our working money—the money that is actually used productively in terms of services—does come from the Welsh Government. 

Just as a matter of interest, if you hadn't had the Heritage Lottery Fund towards the broadcast archive, would any of the capital that was allocated but had to be sent back—could that have been used for it, which is what it was planned for?

No, because the capital funding for the Heritage Lottery Fund project is coming from the library's own reserves—£2 million. The board—perhaps Rhodri can just provide the detail—. The money that the Welsh Government has given to us is for essential care and maintenance, and it is mostly associated with asbestos, with ensuring that the walls of the library do not fall down on any passing visitor or member of staff, and also for the roof. So, none of that money is actually to provide developments; it is, of course, to ensure that staff and visitors are in a safe environment. The development money has actually come from the library's own reserves. 

Sorry, I was just trying to clarify that you don't have much freedom to move capital from one type of capital pot to another capital pot. That's all I was asking. 

Unfortunately not. 

Okay. You mentioned earlier, Rhodri, that the main purpose of the library is as a centre of conservation and research, I think you said. Obviously Welsh Government's got a different view on that; it expects the library to do some heavy lifting in terms of its social aspirations as well, not least the Fusion programme. Do you want to tell us a little bit about how that's going, if you like? There are specific things, it seems to me, that the Fusion programme's asked you to do and it would be great to know if you've done it, but also what the outcomes of that were.

Fe wnaiff Pedr ateb y cwestiwn hwn. 

Mi rydym ni'n gweithio ym mhob ardal, neu mi rydym ni wedi gweithio ym mhob ardal Cyfuno yn ystod y ddwy flynedd diwethaf yma ar wahanol gweithgareddau. Heb fanylu gormod, fe allwn ni ddarparu union fanylion y gweithgareddau hynny i chi. Un ohonyn nhw, er enghraifft, ydy bod plant ysgol a disgyblion Trimsaran—mae'n drueni nad yw Lee Waters yma i glywed hyn—ychydig wythnosau yn ôl, wedi cymryd drosodd y llyfrgell genedlaethol a rhedeg y llyfrgell genedlaethol am ddiwrnod. Mi rydym ni wedi gweithio eleni yn ardaloedd Cyfuno Gwynedd a sir Gaerfyrddin, yn benodol yn yr ardaloedd Cymraeg hynny. Mae yna weithgareddau wedi digwydd o fewn yr ardaloedd ac, wrth gwrs, mae'r plant a'r disgyblion wedi dod i'r llyfrgell genedlaethol hefyd i gynnal gweithgareddau.

We are working in every area, or we have worked in every area, the Fusion area, during the last two years on different activities. Without going into too much detail, we could provide the exact details of those activities to you. One of them, for example, is that school pupils from Trimsaran—and it's a pity that Lee Waters isn't here to hear this—a few weeks ago, took over the national library and ran the national library themselves for a day. We have worked this year in Fusion areas in Gwynedd and Carmarthenshire and specifically in Welsh-speaking areas. Activities have happened in those areas and, of course, schoolchildren have come to the national library as well to take part in activities. 

Mae hynny'n swnio'n ffantastig ac mae'n brofiad arbennig o dda i'r disgyblion sydd wedi cymryd rhan, ond pwy sy'n gyfrifol am weld beth yw canlyniadau'r gweithgareddau? A ydy'r Llywodraeth yn gwneud yr evaluation neu a ydy hynny lawr i chi fel llyfrgell i'w wneud?

This sounds fantastic and a very good experience for people to have taken part, but who's responsible for seeing what the outcomes are with regard to these outcomes? Is the Government doing the evaluation or does that fall to you as the library? 

Rŷm ni wrth gwrs yn gwerthuso pob gweithgaredd yn y llyfrgell achos mae'n rhaid i ni ddangos hefyd bod beth bynnag rydym ni'n ei wneud yn effeithiol—yn rhannol, wrth gwrs, wrth ofyn i'r ysgolion sut fath o brofiad maen nhw'n teimlo iddynt gael. A ydy o'n brofiad y bydden nhw'n hoffi ei gael eto? Ac mae hynny, mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud, yn galonogol iawn, achos mae ansawdd hefyd yn bwysig yn fan hyn—bod y plant yn cael profiad sydd yn eu hysbrydoli nhw yn y modd y mae'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, i fod yn deg, eisiau iddyn nhw gael, a chael cyfleoedd hwyrach na fuasen nhw'n eu cael. Ac yn sicr, mae'r gwerthusiad hwnnw wedi bod yn hynod o bositif i weithgareddau'r llyfrgell.

Mae'n rhaid cyfaddef, pe bai mwy o adnoddau, mi fyddwn i'n hoffi'n fawr iawn gwneud llawer mwy o hyn. Mae hyn yn mynd nôl i'n capasiti ni i wneud hyn, a hwyrach mai un o'r pethau y byddwn i'n hoffi gweld y Llywodraeth yn ei wneud ydy gweld sut fath o gyllidebau tu hwnt i ddiwylliant a thwristiaeth a fyddai ar gael i ni, i gydweithio gydag addysg i wneud llawer mwy, achos rydw i'n meddwl bod gennym ni fodelau sy'n effeithiol iawn, iawn, ond rydym ni yn gyfyngedig gyda'r adnoddau sydd gennym ni o ran faint o blant yng Nghymru sydd yn gallu elwa o hyn. Mae'r Gymraeg, hwyrach, yn rhywbeth lle nad yw rhaglen Cyfuno wedi cael gymaint â hynny o effaith, yn yr ystyr nad oes ond ychydig o sefydliadau sydd yn gallu cynnig yr adnoddau a'r gweithgareddau yn hollol ddwyieithog. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae'r llyfrgell yn un ohonyn nhw, ac felly mae'r drafodaeth gyda rhaglen Cyfuno a'r Llywodraeth yn seiliedig ar y ffaith, hwyrach, i ni ganolbwyntio ar y cynnig dwyieithog, oherwydd, yn amlwg, bod hwnnw yn rhywbeth y mae'r llyfrgell yn gallu ei gynnig, yn hytrach na dim ond ei gwneud hi yn Saesneg.

Well, of course, we evaluate all activities within the library because we have to demonstrate that everything we do is effective—partly, of course, in asking the schools what kind of experience they've had. Is it an experience that they would like to seek out again? And that, I have to say, is very encouraging in terms of the response, because quality is important here—that the children do have an experience that inspires them in the way that the Cabinet Secretary, to be fair, wants them to be inspired and to have experiences that they perhaps wouldn't have elsewhere. And the evaluation has been very positive in terms of the library's activities.

I have to admit that, if we had more resources, we would like to do far more of this, but that goes back to our capacity to do this. Perhaps one of the things that we would like to see the Government doing is to look at what kind of budget beyond the culture and tourism budget may be available to us in order to collaborate with the education sector to do far more, because I do think that we have models that are very effective, but we are limited in terms of resources and, therefore, how many children in Wales can benefit from this. The Welsh language is an area where the Fusion programme hasn't had as much of an impact because there are so few organisations that can provide facilities and resources entirely bilingually, but the library is one of those, and therefore the relationship with the Fusion programme and the Government is based on the fact that we are focusing on the bilingual offer because that is something that the library can offer, rather than providing services in English alone.

11:00

Ond mae'n wir dweud hefyd, o'r wyth ardal Cyfuno sy'n bodoli, rydym ni wedi gweithio yn chwech o'r ardaloedd hynny yn ystod y flwyddyn 2017: Caerdydd, Abertawe, Conwy, Casnewydd, Gwynedd a sir Gaerfyrddin. Ac mi fyddwn ni yn gweithio yn Nhorfaen ac yng Nghaerffili ac yng Nghastell-nedd yn y dyfodol. Felly, rydym ni'n ymwybodol iawn o'n cyfrifoldeb yn y maes yma.  

But it's true to say as well that, of the eight areas that exist in the Fusion programme, we have worked in six of those areas during 2017: Cardiff, Swansea, Conwy, Newport, Gwynedd and Carmarthenshire. And we will be working in Torfaen and in Caerphilly and Neath in the future. So, we are very aware of our responsibility in this area.

Os caf i ychwanegu, rydym ni yn weddol hyderus ein bod ni yn mynd i gyrraedd ein targedau Cyfuno eleni, ond, fel mae Rhodri a Linda wedi dweud yn barod ynglŷn â phopeth rydym ni yn ei wneud y dyddiau yma, rydych chi'n gorfod torri'r got yn ôl y brethyn. Ac oherwydd y gofynion a oedd yn cael eu gosod arnom ni o ran cyflawni'r rhaglen Cyfuno, mi ddaru i ni, y llynedd, ailstrwythuro ein hadrannau er mwyn ein galluogi ni i gyrraedd targedau Cyfuno, oherwydd ein bod ni, fel llyfrgell hefyd, yn ogystal â'r Llywodraeth, yn gweld pwysigrwydd mewn mynd â'r llyfrgell a darparu gwasanaethau yn yr ardaloedd arbennig yma.

If I could add, we are quite confident that we are going to reach our Fusion targets this year, but, as Rhodri and Linda mentioned earlier, in relation to everything that we do these days, you have to cut your coat according to your cloth. And because of the requirements that were placed on us in terms of delivering the Fusion programme,  we did last year restructure our departments in order to enable us to reach the Fusion targets, because we as a library, as well as the Government, saw the importance in taking the library and providing services in these particular areas.

Jest ar y pwynt yna, rydych chi'n sôn am ailstrwythuro. A ydych chi wedi cymryd y cyfle i edrych ar amrywiaeth y bobl sy'n gweithio i'r llyfrgell, ac nid dim ond yn Aberystwyth ond yn fwy cyffredin dros Gymru? Achos dyna yw un o nodau'r Llywodraeth, i gael mwy o amrywiaeth tu fewn i'r corff ei hun. A ydy hi wedi bod yn bosib gwneud hynny?

Just on that point, you mentioned restructuring. Have you taken the opportunity to look at the diversity of people working for the library, and not just in Aberystwyth but across Wales? Because that's one of the Government's objectives, to have more diversity within the organisation itself. Has it been possible to do that?

Wel, mae ein cyfrifoldeb ni, wrth gwrs, yn ymwneud â'r staff sydd yn gweithio yn y llyfrgell genedlaethol yn Aberystwyth. Mae'n wir dweud bod yna ganolfannau newydd yn mynd i ddod i fodolaeth. Mae yna un eisoes yng Nghaerdydd yn y brifysgol. Mae yna un yn mynd i fod yn Hwlffordd, yn y llyfrgell newydd yn Hwlffordd, a, gyda'r archif darlledu, mi fydd yna bedwar hwb newydd yn cael eu hagor yn Aberystwyth, Wrecsam, Caerfyrddin a Chaerdydd. Ond o ran gwerthuso ein staff, ydym, wrth gwrs, ond, fel rydym ni eisoes wedi nodi, yn ystod y pedair blynedd diwethaf rydym ni wedi colli traean o'n staff, ac rydym ni wedi gorfod bod yn ofalus iawn, wrth gwrs, i sicrhau nad yw ystod gweithgareddau'r llyfrgell yn cael ei heffeithio. Hyd yn oed—. Ac rydym ni'n ddiolchgar iawn dros y ddwy gyllideb ddiwethaf am y cytundeb rhwng y Llywodraeth a Phlaid Cymru, sydd wedi sefydlogi sefyllfa arian y llyfrgell. Nid yw e wedi gwella'r sefyllfa ond mae wedi sefydlogi'r sefyllfa, ac rydym ni'n ddiolchgar iawn am hynny yn ein sefyllfa bresennol o gyni ariannol. Ond hyd yn oed wedyn, rydym ni yn gorfod edrych ar, hwyrach, gadael i rai staff fynd eto dros y blynyddoedd nesaf er mwyn sefydlogi'r sefyllfa ariannol, ac rŷm ni'n gorfod bod yn ofalus iawn nad ŷm ni'n gwanhau rhai adrannau yn fwy na'i gilydd. Felly, rŷm ni'n edrych ar sicrhau bod sgiliau hyblyg gan ein staff ni, fel ein bod ni'n gallu eu symud nhw yn ôl y galw.

Well, our responsibility, of course, relates to the staff working in the national library in Aberystwyth, It is true to say that there are new centres that are going to come into existence. There is already one in the university in Cardiff. There will be another in Haverfordwest, in the new library there, and, with the broadcast archive, there will be four new hubs opened in Aberystwyth, Wrexham, Carmarthen and Cardiff. But. in terms of evaluating our staff, we do that, of course, but as we've already noted, over the past four years we've lost a third of our staff, and we've had to be very careful, of course, to ensure that the range of activities at the library aren't impacted. And we are very grateful that, over the past two budgets, there's been a budget agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru, which has stabilised the funding position of the library. It hasn't improved things but it has stabilised things, and we're very grateful for that, given the current financial climate and austerity. But even then, we do have to look or consider letting some staff go over the next few years in order to stabilise the financial position further, and we do have to be very careful that we don't weaken some departments more than others. So, we are seeking to ensure that our staff have flexible skills so that they can move according to the need.

11:05

Rwy'n siŵr y cewch chi fwy o gwestiynau ar y gweithlu, actually, ond nid wyf i eisiau mynd yn rhy ddwfn i mewn i hynny. Jest dau beth clou cyn i fi ddod i ben, plis. Gyda gweithgareddau, a ydy'r plant sy'n cymryd rhan—yn arbennig y plant—yn deall taw'r llyfrgell sy'n gyfrifol am y profiad? Achos weithiau mae'n bosib gwneud rhywbeth pwysig fel hynny, ond nid oes neb yn deall hynny. A'r peth arall yw: ble mae gwirfoddolwyr yn ffitio i mewn i'ch rhaglen? Rydych chi wedi llwyddo ar y targed yna, ac rwyf jest eisiau check-o nad ydych chi'n dibynnu gormod ar wirfoddolwyr, eu cadw nhw fel pobl ychwanegol, os caf i—

I'm sure you'll get more questions on the workforce, but I don't want to go into too much detail now. Just two things quickly before I finish, please. With activities, do the children who take part—particularly the children—understand that the library is responsible for the experience? Because sometimes it's possible to do something important like that, but people don't understand that. And, as well, where do volunteers fit into your programme? You've succeeded on that target, and I just want to check that you're not relying too much on volunteers, keeping them as additional staff, if you like—

Wel, yn sicr, os ewch chi i wefan y llyfrgell, rwy'n meddwl y gwnewch chi weld bod y plant yn sylweddoli eu bod nhw yn y llyfrgell, ac mae hi'n ddiwrnod bendigedig pan maen nhw yn dod draw a chymryd drosodd y llyfrgell—

Well, certainly, if you go to the library website, I think you will see that the children do understand that they are in the library, and it is a wonderful day when they do visit and take over—

Na, rwy'n sôn am outreach nawr.

I was talking about the outreach.

Efo hynny—ydynt, yn sicr. Wrth gwrs, rydym ni yn gydweithredol, ond yn sicr mae brand y llyfrgell allan yna.

O ran gwirfoddolwyr, mae hynny, rydw i'n meddwl, yn faes lle mae'r llyfrgell wedi cael llwyddiant yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ac, wrth gwrs, fe wnaethom ni ennill gwobr Deyrnas Unedig y llynedd am y rhaglen oedd gennym ni efo gwirfoddolwyr. Beth sy'n braf i fi ydy bod y gwirfoddolwyr rydym ni'n eu denu yn bobl â diddordeb yng ngwaith y llyfrgell, ond rydym ni hefyd wedi gallu helpu a chefnogi pobl sydd wedi ei ffeindio hi'n anodd i fynd nôl i'r gweithlu, hwyrach pobl sydd wedi cael problemau yn eu bywydau yn ddiweddar ac maen nhw angen gweithle lle maen nhw yn gallu cael awyrgylch sydd yn un sydd ddim yn rhy ffrenetig, un lle mae o'n ddistaw. Mae o mor braf i ni, rydw i'n meddwl, ar yr ochr reolaeth, i weld y bobl yma'n datblygu ac, wrth gwrs, yn cael cyfleoedd wedyn i fynd nôl i'r gweithlu. Ond Pedr sydd wedi bod yn gyfrifol am y rhaglen.

Yes, of course. Of course, we do collaborate, but, certainly, the library brand is out there.

In terms of volunteers, I think that's an area where the library has had some success over the past few years, and, of course, we won a UK-wide award last year for the programme that we had in place for our volunteers. What is satisfying for me is that the volunteers we attract are people who are interested in the work of the library, but we have also been able to assist and support people who have found it difficult to return to the workforce, people who may have faced problems in their lives of late and need a workplace where there is an environment that isn't too frenetic or pressured, one that is calm. It is so wonderful for us, on the governance side, to see these people developing and, of course, having the opportunity to return to the workforce. But Pedr has been responsible for this.

Heb fanylu gormod ar y rhaglen wirfoddoli, rhag ofn ei bod hi'n dod fyny yn yr agenda eto, ond i ateb eich cwestiwn chi'n benodol, felly, nid ydym ni'n gallu defnyddio gwirfoddolwyr i wneud gwaith y staff—

Without going into too much detail regarding the volunteer programme, in case it comes on the agenda again, but to answer your question specifically, therefore, we cannot use volunteers to do the staff's work—

Dyna beth roeddwn i eisiau ei glywed.

That's what I wanted to hear.

—ac oherwydd y berthynas dda, rydw i'n credu, sydd rhyngom ni a'r undebau erbyn hyn, mae honno'n ddealltwriaeth rydym ni'n gorfod bod yn ofalus iawn, iawn ohoni hi. Felly, nid ydy'n gwirfoddolwyr ni'n cymryd lle staff, ond, yn hytrach, maen nhw yn cyflawni gwaith pwysig iawn yng nghyd-destun cyflawni prosiectau pwysig. Ond mae pob prosiect yn cael ei gytuno rhwng y rheolwyr a'r undebau.

—and because of the good relationship, I think, that we have with the unions now, that is an understanding that we have to be very careful of. Therefore, our volunteers do not take staff places, but, rather, they do very important work in the context of delivering important projects. But every project is agreed upon between the unions and the managers.

Mae'n rhaid i fi symud ymlaen. Rhianon Passmore.

We have to move on. Rhianon Passmore.

Thank you. I've got to say I've visited the library on many occasions as a member of the Welsh Books Council executive, and it's a fantastic resource for Wales.

Regarding the remit letter that states

'Wales’ special and distinctive cultural heritage needs to be visible to the rest of the UK'

—we touched upon digital and branding a little bit earlier—do you think that where you currently sit now, you seem to give an impression that you are fighting against the objectives that have been set in your remit letter, and how would you encourage me to believe that, moving forward, you will be absolutely reaching out further than the one centre of online ability in Cardiff to be able to look at your resources? Because my view is that your institution, as you very well know, is a national institution, so how are you going to be able to reach out more broadly to meet some of the many objectives that have been set for you in terms of the remit letter that you seem to be fighting against?

Wel, na, yn sicr nid ydym ni'n brwydro yn erbyn y llythyr cylch gorchwyl. Rydym ni'n derbyn mai dyna yw gofyniad y Llywodraeth ohonom ni. Yr unig beth yr oeddwn i'n ei gwestiynu oedd pa mor realistig oedd rhai o'r targedau oedd yn cael eu gosod o fewn y llythyr cylch gorchwyl. Ond rydym ni'n gweithredu yn unol â'r llythyr hwnnw, ac rydym ni'n llwyddo yn unol â'r llythyr hwnnw. Mae'r bwrdd yn mesur ein llwyddiant ni yn wahanol i'r ffordd y mae'r Llywodraeth yn dewis gwneud hynny.

O ran cyrhaeddiad, rŷm ni yn sylweddoli—

Well, no, certainly we're not fighting the remit letter. We accept that that is the Government's expectation of us. The only thing I was questioning was how realistic some of those targets were in terms of the remit letter. But we do operate in accordance with that letter, and we are succeeding in accordance with the remit letter. The board measures our success in a way that is different to the way in which the Government chooses to do so.

In terms of attainment and achievement, we realise—

Wel, yr hyn rydw i'n ei ddweud ydy bod y bwrdd yn mesur gweithgaredd y llyfrgell ac yn nodi bod y llyfrgell yn llwyddo o flwyddyn i flwyddyn i gynyddu ei gweithgaredd ym mhob ystod o'i gweithgaredd. Os ydych am fy nghyfeirio Os ydych am fy nghyfeirio at rywbeth nad ydym yn llwyddo ynddo fe o ran cynnydd, rwy'n hapus i ateb hynny. Ond mae llwyddiant ym mhob adran o flwyddyn i flwyddyn. Y cwestiwn sy'n cael ei godi ydy: a ydy'r targed y mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei osod o ran denu ymwelwyr, pan fo gennych chi sefydliad cenedlaethol sydd wedi ei leoli yn Aberystwyth—? A ydy hi'n ymarferol i feddwl bod yna ddegau o filoedd o bobl yn mynd i deithio i Aberystwyth yn sydyn i fynd i'r llyfrgell genedlaethol? Nid yw'r bwrdd yn credu—

Well, what I'm saying is that the board measures the activity of the library and notes that the library is succeeding, year on year, to increase its activities in all areas. If you want to refer me to an area where we are not succeeding in terms of progress, then I'm happy to answer any questions that you may have. But we are succeeding in all departments year on ear. The question that's being raised is whether the targets set by Government, in terms of attracting visitors, when you have a national institution that is located in Aberystwyth—. Is it practical to think that tens of thousands of people are going to travel to Aberystwyth all of a sudden to visit the national library? The board doesn't believe—

11:10

Sorry to interrupt, but, with respect, Aberystwyth is very well known for its tourism. We've had the film festival there at the arts centre. I'm sure the Aberystwyth tourist board would be rather insulted if they weren't combined within that, and I'm sure you have a strategy for that—

We are very active and productive members of Mid Wales Tourism and locally and we work—. I think my response would be that within the limited resources that we have now, we have to fulfil the legal requirements of being a copyright library. That means that 5,000 books a week arrive in Aberystwyth and have to be catalogued and processed. We receive 20,000 e-books every two weeks. That is our prime legal remit, if you like. We are a copyright library and Wales's only copyright library, but we are passionate about providing access to the resources of the national library to the people of Wales because it is the people of Wales who fund us and we absolutely want to do the best we can.

What we have adopted, or the model we have adopted in recent years, is that we can't do all of that ourselves. It would be great if we could. So, we work in partnership. As I mentioned earlier, the resources that you get in your local library are provided through the National Library of Wales. Some of the outreach that we do in partnership—. We can't be everywhere in Wales that we'd like to be, but we can certainly provide resources for those events. So, if you like, we are the engine that produces a lot of these resources, mostly digital.

I would love to have greater presence across Wales, but I have to be realistic in terms of what would be an effective role for the national library, and at the moment, with the resourcing that we have, it is to provide that digital element that many other partners are struggling to do. It's something that we are very good at and it's something, I think, we can provide. And, of course, we do provide that beyond Wales, because we are a member of an international community for information resources. We are a very active member of the other copyright libraries—bizarrely, Trinity College Dublin is still a UK copyright library—and we work very actively in terms of technical developments in that sector. That's not necessarily very visible, I appreciate that, to, probably, committee members, but that is all happening in the background as well as the more obvious aspects of our work.

A gaf i ychwanegu un peth?

Could I just add one thing?

Os gall yr atebion fod yn fyr, byddai hynny'n grêt.

If the answers could be brief, that would be great.

Ateb byr ydy: yn ystod y blynyddoedd nesaf yma, fe fyddwn ni'n gweld ôl-troed y llyfrgell yn cynyddu yn gorfforol ac yn ffisegol ar draws Cymru. Yng nghyd-destun prosiect y BBC, er enghraifft, fe fydd gennym ni bresenoldeb yn Wrecsam, Caerfyrddin a Chaerdydd. Mi fyddwn yn sefydlu canolfannau treftadaeth digidol, ond rŷm ni yn gweld y canolfannau hynny hefyd fel cyfle inni gael presenoldeb strategol yn y mannau arbennig yna.

A brief answer is: during the next few years, we will see the library's footprint increasing on a corporate level and physically across Wales. In the context of the BBC project, for example, we will have a presence in Wrexham, Carmarthen and Cardiff. We will be establishing digital heritage centres, but we do see those centres as well as an opportunity for us to have a strategic presence in those particular areas.

A gaf i jest ofyn ar hynny: pam ddim yn y gogledd-orllewin?

Could I just ask on that: why not the north-west?

Roeddwn yn gwybod bod y cwestiwn yna'n mynd i ddod. [Chwerthin.] Fel y dywedodd Linda, mater o dorri'r got yn ôl y brethyn ydy o. Mi oeddem ni'n cael ein cyfyngu'n ariannol i'r nifer o ganolfannau treftadaeth yr oeddem ni'n medru eu sefydlu yng nghyd-destun y bìd ddaru ni gyflwyno i Gronfa Treftadaeth y Loteri.

I knew that that question was coming. [Laughter.] As Linda said, it's a matter of cutting your coat according to your cloth. We were limited financially in terms of the number of heritage centres that we were able to establish in the context of the bid that we made to the Heritage Lottery Fund.

Mi fyddwn i wrth fy modd yn cael pumed yn Pontio neu rywle yn y gogledd-orllewin. Ar hyn o bryd, nid yw'r arian na'r adnoddau yna i ni wneud hynny, ond rŷm ni a'r BBC a'r darlledwyr eraill yn agored iawn i ehangu'r presenoldeb yma. Mae'n rhaid i ni ofalu bod unrhyw bresenoldeb yn gynaliadwy, ac yn gynaliadwy yn y tymor hir, oherwydd o ran popeth y mae'r llyfrgell yn ei wneud, yn y pen draw, rŷm ni'n gorfod bod yna am y tymor hir yn hytrach na gwneud rhywbeth sydd dros dro. Ond rwy'n siŵr, fel sefydliad, buasem ni'n croesawu unrhyw drafodaeth lle buasem ni'n gallu ychwanegu hwb i le rwy'n byw—buaswn i wrth fy modd yn gallu gwneud hynny. Mae'n rhaid derbyn ar hyn o bryd, rwy'n meddwl, mai dyna'r nifer o hybiau sydd gennym ni lle mae yna adnoddau i'w cynnal nhw.

I would be delighted to have a fifth in Pontio or somewhere in the north-west. At the moment, the funding or the resources aren't there to do that, but we and the BBC and other broadcasters are very open to expanding the presence. We have to be careful that any presence is sustainable, and is sustainable for the long term, because with everything that the library does, ultimately, we have to be there for the long term, rather than doing something that is temporary. But I'm sure, as an institution, we would welcome any discussion where we would be able to boost where I live—I would be delighted to do that, but we have to accept, at the moment, that that is the number of hubs that we have where we have the resources to sustain them.

11:15

Iawn. Rwy'n falch o glywed hynny.

Okay. I'm glad to hear that.

Rhianon, a oes gyda ti rywbeth ychwanegol?

Rhianon, do you have anything to add?

With regard to your work internationally, you've mentioned the fact that there seem to be very few bases outside of Aberystwyth, and only one in terms of a service access point outside of Aberystwyth. How are you extrapolating the work that could be done across Wales internationally, bearing in mind archives—you've already talked about your raison d'être in terms of being there, but I would argue that, culturally, with heritage and, for our tourism industry per se, you have a huge potentiality in terms of marketing internationally? So, what is your operational plan for that and your development plan?

Absolutely. Again, I believe they call it soft power, don't they? But we're very much in support of Welsh Government business delegations, trade delegations. We are very, very much involved in any way that we can that can provide a very positive view of Wales. Certainly, a recent visit to China produced some very, very promising discussions with Shanghai Library in terms of exchange and making Wales more visible and using our reach to do that. We've worked very closely with the first world war commemorations, particularly with Flanders and with France, and they, again, have produced, I think, very positive outcomes—

The other aspect I should say—if you look at family history, we can provide online access. That raises the profile of Wales.

A gaf i ychwanegu un peth yn sydyn iawn? Rydym ni yn aelodau gweithredol iawn o Europeana. Mae Europeana yn sefydliad Ewropeaidd, ond mae o'n llwyfan digidol hefyd, ac rydym ni'n cyfrannu’n helaeth i'r llwyfan digidol yna. Mae Europeana yn dod â holl gasgliadau digidol, prif gasgliadau digidol diwylliannol Ewrop at ei gilydd, ac rydym ni'n chwarae rhan amlwg yn hwnnw.

If I could add one thing very briefly: we are very active members of Europeana. Europeana is an European institution or organisation, but is also a digital platform, and we do contribute substantially to that digital platform. Europeana brings all the main cultural digital collections of Europe together, and we are prominent in that.

Ocê. Diolch, Rhianon. Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen yn awr at sefydliadau cynaliadwy. Neil Hamilton.

Thank you, Rhianon. We'll move on to sustainable organisations. Neil Hamilton.

You're part of Historic Wales, the strategic partnership, in the inevitable, unrelenting financial climate that you have to operate in, stretching everything further and further apart. We were told by Cadw that there were various initiatives to share back-office functions and so on that help to share costs and reduce costs for each individual partner in this partnership. Have you been able to make savings to your bottom line in this way or are these in prospect? Has this been a valuable extension of your activities?

Rydym ni wedi bod yn weithredol iawn yn y trafodaethau a gafwyd i sefydlu Cymru Hanesyddol, ac mae'r trafodaethau hynny yn parhau. Rŷm ni yn cydweithio yn barod â nifer o sefydliadau, ac rŷm ni'n gweld bod yna bosibiliadau. Er enghraifft, rŷm ni wedi edrych ar y posibilrwydd o greu prentisiaethau a fyddai'n cael eu lledu ar draws y sefydliadau i gyd, felly yn hytrach na bod pobl ar brentisiaeth yn cael profiad o un sefydliad yn unig, eu bod nhw'n cael y cyfle i weithio mewn tri neu bedwar sefydliad. Felly, mae yna fuddion i'w gwneud, fel ŷch chi'n nodi. Nid ydyn nhw cymaint i'r llyfrgell ac y maen nhw i'r amgueddfa ac i Cadw. Mae yna, yn amlwg, gysylltiadau llawer iawn mwy uniongyrchol y gellid eu gwneud yn fanna. Ond mae'r llyfrgell yn cydweithio â'i phartneriaid yn y maes yma.

We have been very active in the discussions that were held to establish Historic Wales, and those discussions are ongoing. We are collaborating already with a number of organisations, and we do see that there are possibilities. For example, we've looked at the possibility of creating apprenticeships that would be spread across all the organisations, so rather than people on an apprenticeship having an experience of only one organisation, they'd have the opportunity to work in three or four organisations. Therefore, there are benefits to be had, as you've noted. There are not as many for the library as there are for the museum and Cadw. Clearly, there are much more direct links that can be made there. But the library is collaborating with its partners in this area.

And I imagine, now you've got co-location with the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales, which fits naturally into a kind of library context, that this offers you great opportunities for co-operation and collaboration on projects and, again, sharing overheads and so on.

Absolutely. This is something we want to pursue. We already are providing, for example, payroll services to the royal commission, and we certainly would be very open to helping one another to share costs and also improve services. It's been a really, really productive year, and we're very pleased, from the library's perspective, at the opportunities that are starting to emerge about sharing our resources and expertise. Also, if I can say that we are helping the royal commission staff with learning Welsh, which was something they didn't have opportunities to do before. Clearly, now, in a bigger environment, they have those. So, as I say, it's been a really good year. I am hopeful that this will develop further.

Having spent a good part of three years as a research student buried in the vaults of the national library, I'm well aware of the importance of its core function, but it must not get obscured by all the other things that Government wants you to do. But it's very important that you should share your expertise, obviously, with other institutions of higher learning and education. Can you tell us what you've been doing in relation to partnerships with higher and further education outside of Aberystwyth?

11:20

Mae hyn yn faes rŷm ni'n edrych arno. Mae gennym ni bartneriaethau gyda nifer o sefydliadau addysg uwch yn barod. Mae partneriaethau gyda ni yn amlwg gyda'r brifysgol yn Aberystwyth, ym Mangor, yng Nghaerdydd, yn Abertawe. Rŷm ni'n trafod ar hyn o bryd gyda Drindod Dewi Sant. Felly, mae'r partneriaethau yma yn bethau byw iawn ac rŷm ni'n ymwybodol fod yna gyfle i gydweithredu ar y lefel honno, ond wrth gwrs mae yna gwestiwn o adnoddau yn codi ac rŷm ni'n gorfod bod yn ofalus nad ŷm ni yn gosod gormod o bwysau ar yr adnoddau dynol sydd gyda ni yn y llyfrgell ar hyn o bryd, ond rŷm ni'n fyw iawn i'r potensial hwn.

This is an area that we are looking at. We do have partnerships with a number of HE institutions. We clearly have partnerships with the university in Aberystwyth, in Bangor, Cardiff, Swansea. We are currently having discussions with the Trinity Saint David. Therefore, these partnerships are very much alive and we are aware that there are opportunities for collaboration there, but there is a question of resourcing and we have to be careful that we do not place too much pressure on the human resources that we have available within the library at the moment, but we are very alive to the potential of all of this.

Mi ydym ni ar hyn o bryd—. Rwyf wedi nodi fan hyn y prifysgolion rydym yn gweithio gyda nhw ar hyn o bryd ar wahanol brosiectau, megis Exeter, Belfast a holl brifysgolion Cymru—ar wahanol brosiectau, a hefyd o ran darparu cyfleoedd ymchwil i fyfyrwyr y prifysgolion hynny, creu ymchwil ar y cyd gyda'r prifysgolion.

Mi ydym ni hefyd yn aelodau gweithredol o WHELF, sef y Wales Higher Education Libraries Forum, sydd yn dod â'r prifysgolion i gyd at ei gilydd er mwyn i ni gael gwell dealltwriaeth o beth sydd yn digwydd. Ond beth sydd yn arwyddocaol hefyd, rydw i'n credu, ydy bod gennym ni rhai o staff hŷn prifysgolion Cymru sydd yn aelodau o'n bwrdd ymddiriedolwyr ni. Mae yna dri, os ydw i'n cofio'n iawn, sydd yn rhoi golwg newydd a ffres a chyfredol inni o anghenion prifysgolion a sut gall y prifysgolion a'r llyfrgell weithio ar y cyd ar wahanol brosiectau.

We are currently—. I've noted here the universities that we are working with at the moment on different projects, such as Exeter, Belfast and all the Welsh universities—on different projects, and also in terms of providing research opportunities for students at those universities, creating joint research opportunities with the universities.

We are also operational members of WHELF, which is the Wales Higher Education Libraries Forum, which brings the universities together so that we can have a better understanding of what is happening. But what is significant as well, I think, is the fact that we have some of the senior staff of Welsh universities who are members of our board of trustees. There are three, if I remember rightly, and they provide a new, fresh and current overview of the universities' requirements and how universities and the library can work jointly on different projects.

Ocê. Iawn, Neil? Diolch am fod yn fras fanna. Rydym ni yn symud ymlaen at yr adran olaf gyda Jenny.

Okay. Okay, Neil? Thank for your brevity. We will move on to the final section with Jenny.

Hello. I'm interested in the way in which you've managed the reduction in staff and the amount of work you can cover, because the auditor general was quite critical that you were trying to continue to deliver all the same services with about 20 per cent fewer staff. So, I was a little bit surprised to read that you told the Public Accounts Committee last month that you were expecting to produce a workforce plan by the end of next year. I just wonder if you could tell us why it would take that long, given that it was 12 months ago that the auditor general's report—.

Yn gyffredinol, cyn i Linda drafod y cynllun rheoli gweithlu gyda chi, mae'r llyfrgell, wrth gwrs, yn cael ei reoli gan statud brenhinol, sydd yn nodi'n fanwl iawn beth sy'n ddisgwyliedig i ni gyflawni fel llyfrgell genedlaethol. Nid ydym yn gallu ymwrthod â'r galwadau hynny. Felly, mae ystod ein gwaith ni wedi cael ei osod yn glir iawn ar ein cyfer ni. Yr hyn yr ŷm ni'n ei wneud ar hyn o bryd, er ein bod ni wedi gostwng y gweithlu o dreian, ydy ein bod ni'n parhau i wneud hynny ac eto rŷm ni hefyd yn edrych ar brosiectau eraill cynhwysfawr, fel yr archif darlledu, sy'n mynd â ni i feysydd newydd, a'r holl waith digidol rŷm ni yn ei wneud. Ond nid oes modd i ni fel llyfrgell i ddweud, 'Rŷm ni ddim yn mynd i wneud hyn mwyach', oherwydd mae hynny wedi'i osod yn glir iawn, iawn ar ein cyfer ni yn y statud ac y mae ein gweithgaredd ni yn cael ei reoli gan hynny.

Generally speaking, before Linda discusses the workforce management plan with you, the library, of course, is managed by royal statute, which notes very clearly what we're expected to deliver as a national library. We cannot turn our backs on the demands of that. So, the range of our activity is set out very clearly for us. What we are doing at the moment, although we have reduced the workforce by a third, is that we are continuing to deliver those functions, but we're also looking at other comprehensive projects, such as the broadcast archive, which will take us into new areas, and all of the digital work that we're also undertaking. But there is no way for us as a library to say, 'We're no longer going to do that', because that is set out very clearly for us in statute and our activity is managed by that.

I think it's fair to say that the loss of so many staff in such a short time was a tremendous shock to the library. It was before I went there, but I can only imagine that that took quite a lot of time, and I certainly was there at the end of that restructuring process. I can only express my admiration to the staff who were there at the time, in their willingness to look at how the library could be restructured to a much smaller—

I'm sure that's all very difficult, but the workforce plan, why—

11:25

Well, I think, if you can appreciate, that there needed to be time for pause and reflect when you have such a large loss of staff to make sure that anything you are establishing is affordable and is actually going to deliver the core services—and, over the last year, that is what we've been doing. We've been looking to see how we can use those resources to the best interests that we have, on the basis that they are not going to increase substantially.

On that basis, we've worked very hard with the partnership council, with our unions, to develop the workforce plan, which is going to take 18 months to agree with the unions and with the staff, and which has elements—. It has the initial elements for a skills audit, because we have to know what skills have we lost, what skills do we need, and how are we going to improve those skills. Following on from the skills audit, we have developed a draft succession policy, which is quite challenging, but that is looking at how we can develop those skills amongst the staff that we already have.

We need to look at a people plan, which will look at individuals in the library and how can we develop their careers and how can we ensure that they can progress within the library, and we will need to bring all of that together into a workforce development plan that places the library on a sustainable footprint in terms of the available skills we have. Some of those skills, of course, are very specialist. We can't buy them in anymore, because we have to really develop the staff we have. I hope that that is an opportunity for those staff to have really fulfilling and interesting careers, but we have to accept that, in some areas, we are going to have to look at our ability. For example, let's take digitalisation. That's an incredibly complex skill that is developing all the time. We need to ensure—

I think we need to go back to—. We need to stick with the workforce plan, because I think we've discussed digitalisation. I appreciate that's really important, but—

Okay, but that is a good example of why we need to do this in a way that is sustainable. As I say, the 18 months that we have taken have been worked out in terms of the various stages we will have to go through, agree with our unions and staff and with the board, of course, so that, in 18 months' time, we have a workforce development plan for the next four years that we think will deliver the skilled staff that will be needed to ensure the library continues its core responsibilities. 

Can you afford it to take 18 months, given that you're using private donations to plug your expenditure gap?

I think it would probably be misleading to say we are waiting for 18 months and then we will have a plan. This is an organic development, which is—. We have bi-monthly meetings with the unions and there are other meetings as well where these staffing issues are discussed. Clearly, in terms of management, we are discussing this on a weekly basis—how are we managing to maintain our services with decreasing staff and resources. So, I don't want to give the impression that we're just going to wait for 18 months and then we'll have a plan, but I think it will take that long for us to actually get to a position where our workforce strategy is one that is sustainable going forward.

Rydw i'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig nodi hefyd fod y bwrdd wedi cymryd penderfyniad i gydweithio'n llwyr gyda'r undebau ar y cynllun gweithlu. Byddai'n hawdd iawn i'r llyfrgell ddatblygu cynllun gweithlu, ac yn llawer iawn cyflymach, ond rŷm ni wedi gwneud pwynt o weithio gyda'r undebau yn lleol ac yn genedlaethol ar y cynllun gweithlu. Felly, mae hynny'n cymryd amser achos rydym ni'n gorfod trafod, maen nhw'n gorfod mynd nôl a siarad gyda'u haelodau, a sicrhau bod eu haelodau nhw'n ymwybodol o'r hyn sy’n digwydd ac yn derbyn yr hyn sy'n digwydd, oherwydd nid yw bob amser yn newyddion da i'w haelodau nhw. Ond mae'r broses honno wedi mynd rhagddi. Rydw i'n credu os byddech chi'n siarad gyda'r undebau, yn lleol yn Aberystwyth a'r undebau cenedlaethol, y bydden nhw'n dweud erbyn hyn bod yna drafodaeth aeddfed iawn yn digwydd rhwng y llyfrgell a'r undebau ar y cynllun datblygu gweithlu ac ar faterion eraill.

I think it's important to note also that the board took a decision to work alongside the unions fully on the workforce plan. It would be very easy for the library to develop a workforce plan, and much quicker, but we have made a point of working with the unions locally and nationally on the workforce plan. That takes time, of course, because we have to negotiate, they have to go back and speak to their members, and ensure that their members are aware of what's happening and accept what's happening, because it's not always good news for their members. But that process has been ongoing. I think if you spoke to the unions, locally in Aberystwyth and at a national level, that they would say that now there is a very mature debate going on between the library and the unions on the workforce development plan and on other issues too.

Ac os caf i ychwanegu—

And if I may add—

Can I just come back to—? One of the issues that the Public Accounts Committee, back in 2015, highlighted was that you have a generous pension scheme and severance scheme compared with other public sector bodies. Clearly, nobody likes to see a reduction in their benefits, but is this what the Government is talking about in its remit letter, which is harmonising your key human resources policies? 

Well, I think they've interpreted that as actually looking at the terms and conditions and wages of the staff, which are clearly much lower than the civil service, to see if we can—. Again, clearly, we'd be delighted if there was resourcing to improve the terms and conditions of staff. I think, in terms of our pension scheme, clearly, that's fully funded. The decision of the board and the board of trustees, for now, is that as it's fully funded—

11:30

There is no deficit at the moment. The deficit that has been established is one where the auditors are happy we are going to pay it off over a 15-year period. It's £300,000. It's a very, very small percentage of—the scheme is 99.8 per cent, I think, funded. So, it is not a scheme in deficit. 

Gyda'r cynllun pensiwn, fe fyddwn i'n eich cyfeirio chi at nodyn a anfonwyd at y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus ac a osodwyd ger eu bron nhw yn eu cyfarfod nhw ar 27 Tachwedd a oedd yn egluro yn llawn bod y cynllun pensiwn wedi'i ariannu yn llawn a bod yna gynlluniau clir iawn sydd wedi cael eu derbyn gan yr archwilwyr allanol fod y diffyg hanesyddol yn mynd i gael ei dalu yn ôl. Felly, nid oes problem o gwbl gyda'r cynllun pensiwn. Mae e'n iachach, hyd y gwn i, nag unrhyw gynllun pensiwn arall yn y sector cyhoeddus.

With the pension scheme, I would refer you to a note that was sent to the Public Accounts Committee and was provided to them in their meeting on 27 November, which explained in full that the pension scheme was fully funded and that there were very clear proposals that have been accepted by external auditors that the historic deficit was to be repaid. So, there is no problem whatsoever with the pension scheme. It is healthier, as far as I know, than any other pension scheme in the public sector.

Okay, thank you. We'll look that up. Just finally, obviously, you had quite a critical staff survey back in November 2015. Did you do one again in November this year, and are you able to tell us anything about whether the results are more positive?

The results will be known in March. We've worked very hard with union representatives. There are two surveys. There is a survey that the unions use, which I think it's fair to say looks at how staff are feeling at the current time. We have a survey, which is the Acas survey, and in order for us to be able to benchmark our performance we ask the same questions every year. We've talked a lot with the unions about how we can bring those surveys more closely together, and that was one of the recommendations of the report. I think it's fair to say that this year we will be discussing with the unions both sets of outcomes. By March, I think it will be clearer to us and to the unions what's working and where we need to perhaps improve. But I do think we've moved on since 2015. Clearly, there is always more to do. We have made the commitment from the library's side that we will work with the unions to improve any areas that we jointly identify need to be looked at.

So, overall, how close do you think you are to having staff fully engaged in reshaping services to better meet the needs of your—?

Mae'r undebau, yn lleol ac yn genedlaethol, wedi datgan yn glir ac yn gyhoeddus fod y berthynas rhwng y bwrdd a rhwng yr uwch reolwyr a'r staff yn gyffredinol wedi gwella yn fawr iawn, iawn yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ac ein bod ni yn gweithio gyda'n gilydd i wella'r berthynas honno ac i fod yn fwy agored yn ein perthynas gyda'r staff. Maen nhw'n cydnabod hynny ac yn gwerthfawrogi hynny. Ond, fel ym mhob sefydliad, mae yna waith eto i'w wneud, ond mae'r sefyllfa lawer iawn yn well nag yr oedd hi yn 2015, ac rŷm ni'n gweithio i wella'r sefyllfa eto i'r dyfodol. Ond, o ran natur y berthynas ar hyn o bryd, rydw i'n credu y byddai'r undebau a ninnau yn dweud ein bod ni'n fodlon bod yna gynnydd enfawr wedi'i wneud ac ein bod ni'n dal i weithio ar y berthynas honno.

The unions, at a local level and on a national level, have stated clearly and publicly that the relationship between the board and the senior managers and the staff in general has improved greatly in the last few years, and that we are working together to improve that relationship and to be more open in our relationship with the staff. They acknowledge that and appreciate that. But, as in every organisation, there is more work to do, but the situation is much better than it was in 2015, and we are working to improve that situation in the future. But, in terms of the nature of the relationship currently, I think the unions and ourselves would say that we are satisfied that great progress has been made and that we're still working on that relationship.

Thank you. In regard to the ongoing work and projects that you are delivering to universities across Wales, it would be of use and interest to the committee and to myself if you could provide us with a note as to what project outreach you're doing—not just with the universities, but across Wales with schools regarding Donaldson ethos, outreach in terms of the ethos of the library, and potentially around the Fusion project. I would be interested. Thank you. Diolch.

Fe allwn ni wneud hynny.

We could do that.

Mae gen i un cwestiwn clou hefyd yng nghyd-destun beth yr oedd Rhodri Glyn Thomas wedi ei ddweud wrth Rhianon ynglŷn â thargedau. Rwy'n cydnabod bod gyda chi dargedau gan y bwrdd, a hefyd dargedau gan y Llywodraeth. Oherwydd eich bod chi'n dilyn targedau y bwrdd, a ydy hynny’n meddwl eich bod chi jest yn cymryd targedau'r Llywodraeth—a ydych chi'n edrych arnyn nhw? A ydych chi jest yn rhoi nhw i un ochr, neu a ydych chi'n ceisio eu cyrraedd nhw, neu a ydych chi wedi dweud wrth Llywodraeth Cymru nad yw'n bosib o gwbl i chi gyrraedd hynny o fewn cyfyngiadau y sefyllfa sydd ohoni ar hyn o bryd? Sut ydych chi wedi gwneud yn glir iddyn nhw ei fod yn afrealistig yn eich barn chi?

I have one brief question in the context of what Rhodri Glyn Thomas said in terms of Rhianon's question on targets. I recognise that you have targets set by the board, and other targets set by Government. Because you are working to the board's targets, does that mean that you just take the Government's targets—do you look at them? Are you pushing them to one side, or are you trying to deliver them, or have you told the Government that it isn't possible at all for you to deliver those targets within the restrictions facing you at present? Have you made it clear to them that it is unrealistic in your view?

Na, ni fyddwn i am i'r pwyllgor yma nag unrhyw un arall ddod i'r casgliad ein bod ni'n ymwrthod â'r hyn y mae'r Llywodraeth yn gofyn i ni ei wneud. Rŷm ni'n cynnal cyfarfod ddwywaith y flwyddyn gyda'r Llywodraeth, gyda'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet fel yr oedd e, ac fe fyddwn ni'n gwneud yr un peth gyda'r Gweinidog newydd, ac ym mhob cyfarfod rydym wedi'i gael gyda'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, mae e wedi mynegi ei fodlonrwydd gyda'r cynnydd mae'r llyfrgell wedi'i wneud. Rydw i wedi bod mewn tri chyfarfod nawr; mae Linda, hwyrach, wedi bod mewn un cyfarfod ychwanegol i hynny cyn fy amser i. Ond ym mhob cyfarfod, mae e wedi cydnabod y cynnydd a'i fod yn fodlon iawn â'r hyn sy'n cael ei wneud.

No, I wouldn't want this committee ar anybody else to come to the conclusion that we reject what the Government is asking us to do. We hold a meeting twice a year with the Government, with the Cabinet Secretary as was, and we will be doing so with the new Minister, and in every meeting that we've had with the Cabinet Secretary, he has expressed his satisfaction with the progress the library has made. I've been in three meetings now; Linda has perhaps been in one additional meeting to that before my time. But in every meeting, he has recognised the progress and has been very satisfied with what has been done.

11:35

Ond a ydy e'n mynd i newid y targedau o gwbl neu eu cadw nhw yr un peth?

But is he going to change the targets at all or keep them as they are?

Mae natur y targedau yn beth gwahanol, a'r cwestiwn roeddwn i'n ei godi ydy: a ydych yn gosod y targed er mwyn cyrraedd y targed, neu a ydych yn gosod y targed er mwyn ceisio sicrhau bod y sefydliad yn cynyddu ei weithgaredd? Beth mae'r bwrdd yn nodi ydy bod yna gynnydd wedi bod ym mhob un ystod o weithgaredd y mae'r llyfrgell yn ei gyflawni. Felly, nid oes gwrthdaro rhyngom a'r Llywodraeth o gwbl ynglŷn â natur ein gwaith ni. Rydym yn cydweithio ac mae'r berthynas yn un dda iawn ac yn un adeiladol.

Yr hyn rydym yn ei ddweud fel sefydliad yw: nid yw'r targedau sy'n cael eu gosod yn dargedau y mae modd eu cyrraedd, oherwydd, y pwynt roeddwn yn ei wneud ynglŷn â'r llyfrgell, mae'n sefydliad cenedlaethol ac mae'n unigryw oherwydd ei bod yn Aberystwyth. Rydym yn falch iawn ei bod yn Aberystwyth, ac rydym yn cyfrannu'n gyfoethog iawn at Aberystwyth a chanolbarth Cymru. Ond yn ymarferol, nid yw'n rhwydd i deithio i Aberystwyth. Felly, petaech chi'n gosod y llyfrgell genedlaethol yng Nghaerdydd, byddai'n llawer iawn rhwyddach i gyrraedd y targedau hynny o ran nifer yr ymwelwyr. Felly, beth rydym yn ei wneud, rydym yn cydnabod yn ddaearyddol ein bod ni mewn sefyllfa anfanteisiol o ran denu pobl i mewn, felly rydym yn ymestyn allan trwy ddatblygu ein gwasanaeth digidol a fydd yn golygu y bydd pobl yn gallu cael mynediad at yr archif ddarlledu o'r pedwar hwb, ond yn y pen draw, bydd pobl yn gallu cael mynediad i'n casgliadau ni o'u cartrefi, heb deithio i Aberystwyth.

Felly, rydym eto yn cydnabod yr hyn y mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei ofyn. Nid oes gwrthdaro o gwbl. Y cwestiwn rwyf yn gofyn i'r pwyllgor yma ydy: a ydy'r targedau hynny'n bethau y byddech chi yn realistig yn disgwyl i'r llyfrgell genedlaethol eu cyrraedd? Rydym yn hapus iawn i ymgyrraedd tuag atyn nhw, ond nid ydym yn ymarferol yn gallu eu cyrraedd nhw. Ond mae ein perfformiad ni yn llwyddo ac yn cynyddu o flwyddyn i flwyddyn.

The nature of the targets is something different. The question I was raising was: do you set the target in order to reach the target, or do you set the target in order to try and ensure that the organisation is increasing its activity? What the board notes is that there has been an increase in every range of activity that the library has delivered. So, there is no clash between us and the Government at all in terms of the nature of our work. We are co-operating and the relationship is a very good one and a constructive one.

What we say as an organisation is that the targets that are set aren't targets that you can achieve, because the point I was making in terms of the library is that it's a national organisation and it's unique because it's in Aberystwyth. We're very pleased that it's in Aberystwyth, and we contribute very richly to the life of Aberystwyth and mid Wales. But on a practical level, it's not easy to travel to Aberystwyth. So, if you placed the national library in Cardiff, it would be much easier to reach those targets in terms of the numbers of visitors. So, what we're doing is that we recognise on a geographical level that we are disadvantaged in terms of attracting people in, so we are reaching out by developing our digital service, which means that people will be able to have access to the broadcast archive from the four hubs, but, ultimately, people will be able to access our collections from their homes without travelling to Aberystwyth.

So, again, we're recognising what the Government is asking. There is no clash at all. What I'm asking this committee is: are those targets ones that you would realistically expect the national library to achieve? We're very happy to aim towards them, but on a practical level, we can't achieve them. But our performance is improving and increasing from year to year.

Unrhyw sylwadau eraill sydd gennych chi, os medrwch chi ysgrifennu atom ni. Yn anffodus, rydym wedi mynd dros amser yn weddol nawr, ond diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am ddod mewn yma heddiw atom. Mae'n siŵr byddwn yn siarad â chi yn y dyfodol. Mae'n un o'r sesiynau newydd nawr i geisio cael y sefydliadau cenedlaethol, fel rydych chi wedi ei ddweud, mewn i roi tystiolaeth er mwyn inni allu sgrwtineiddio'r hyn rydych yn ei wneud. Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn.

If you do have any further comments, please do write to us. Unfortunately, we are over time already, but thank you very much for joining us this morning. I'm sure we will speak to you again in future. This is one of our new sessions to bring in the national institutions, as you mentioned, to give evidence so that we can scrutinise your activities. So, thank you very much.

4. Papurau i'w nodi
4. Papers to note

Rydym yn symud ymlaen nawr at eitem 4, a phapurau i'w nodi. Mae papur 4.1 'Amgylchedd Hanesyddol: Tystiolaeth Ychwanegol', 4.2 'Gohebiaeth gan Weinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes: Safonau’r Gymraeg', ac wedyn 4.3 'Gohebiaeth gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid'. Oes unrhyw sylwad ar y rheini? Siân.

We move on now to item 4, papers to note. We have paper 4.1 'Historic Environment: Additional Evidence', 4.2 'Correspondence from the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language: Welsh Language Standards', and then 4.3 'Correspondence from Cabinet Secretary for Finance'. Any comments on those papers? Siân.

Yr ail un gan Weinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ynglŷn â safonau'r Gymraeg: jest i nodi fy mod yn siomedig iawn fod yna oedi pellach efo cyflwyno rheoliadau yn ymwneud â safonau yn y maes iechyd. Roedd y rhain i fod wedi cael eu cyflwyno dwy flynedd a hanner yn ôl. Mae'r oedi pellach yma, nid wyf yn deall pam bod yna fwy o oedi, ond nid yw'n argoeli'n dda iawn.

On the second point, the correspondence from the Minister for Lifelong Learning and the Welsh Language on the Welsh language standards: I'd just like to note that I'm very disappointed that there is further delay with introducing the regulations regarding the standards in health. These were supposed to have been introduced two and a half years ago. This further delay, I don't understand why there has been further delay, but it doesn't bode well.

Byddem ni'n gallu ysgrifennu nôl fel pwyllgor i gydnabod hynny ac i ofyn am esboniad mwy eang.

So, we could respond as a committee to make those points and to ask for a more detailed explanation.

Ie, buaswn i'n gofyn am esboniad pam ei fod yn cymryd cymaint o amser, ac efallai'n gofyn ynglŷn â meddygon teulu oherwydd nid yw'r rheoliadau'n cynnwys meddygon teulu ar hyn o bryd. Hoffwn ofyn iddyn nhw pam bod hynny, ac a ydyn nhw'n ystyried hynny. Gan fod yna oedi, waeth inni gymryd y cyfle yna.

Yes, I'd ask for an explanation as to why it's taking so long and perhaps we could ask in terms of GPs because the regulations don't include GPs at the moment. I would like to ask them why that is the case and whether they are considering that. Because there is this delay, we might as well take this opportunity to make that point.

Gweinidog newydd fydd rhan o'r ymateb siŵr o fod.

A new Minister will be part of the answer probably.

Fel roeddem ni wedi'i ddweud ar ddiwedd y cyfarfod diwethaf, mae gennym gyfarfod sgrwtini cyffredinol gyda'r Gweinidog, felly gallwn aros tan hynny, neu ysgrifennu—beth bynnag mae'r pwyllgor ei eisiau.

As we said at the end of the last meeting, we do have a general scrutiny session with the Minister scheduled, so we could wait until then or write now—whatever the committee chooses.

Roeddwn i jest eisiau nodi nad ydym yn fodlon efo'r sefyllfa.

I just wanted to note that we weren't content with the situation.

5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd ar gyfer Eitemau 6 & 7 a'r cyfarfod ar 10 Ionawr 2018
5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from Items 6 & 7 and the meeting on 10 January 2018

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod ar gyfer eitemau 6 a 7 a'r cyfarfod ar 10 Ionawr 2018 yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from items 6 and 7 and the meeting on 10 January 2018 in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Ocê. Symud ymlaen at eitem 5, cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod ar gyfer y busnes a ganlyn: eitemau 6 a 7 o'r cyfarfod yma a hefyd y cyfarfod ar 10 Ionawr 2018, y flwyddyn nesaf. A ydy pobl yn hapus â hynny, sef cyfarfod preifat i drafod rhai o'n hadroddiadau? Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Okay. We'll move on to item 5, a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from items 6 and 7 of this meeting and also the meeting on 10 January 2018, next year. Everyone content with that? It will be a private meeting to discuss some of our reports. Okay. Thank you very much.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:40.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 11:40.

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